AudioCircle
The Commercial Zone => Audio Shows and Events => Rocky Mountain Audio Fest => Topic started by: Pez on 14 Oct 2014, 08:14 pm
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I hope there are a few of you out there reading this. I'm sure a lot of the ones who are reading this are the ones who care deeply about their potential customers perceptions of their brand. Those ones are likely already doing 95% of what I personally think they need to do for a show like this and to you I say kudos! Either way I hope this finds you and helps you understand things from our (or at least my) perspective.
I have noticed a few things from years of doing these shows that I think anyone can benefit from. But before I get to that let me just say overall this show has gotten better and better through the years, but to get to the next level there are 2 major things you have to remember.
Setup Setup Setup
I know you're busy, time is precious, travel and shipping is incredibly expensive. I know this, I'm sympathetic to this. That said don't come to the show thursday night or friday morning and scramble to get things setup in time. If you're rushed and your system is not optimized prior to Friday morning then you are doing it wrong. I have setup at these shows before to help vendors out, I know first hand nothing is more stressful than seeing the first show attendees trickle in friday afternoon and things are not ready for prime time. That reflects poorly on you and as an extension your gear and products.
Know your gear!!!! I have seen several times a manufacturer struggling because the dac isn't syncing with the CDP or the amplifier is not integrating well with the speakers or this or that etc etc etc. Why? Because 4 guys all pay for a room, they all bring their own gear, show up and expect things to just work. WRONG! This stuff needs to be verified far before the show. Don't bring a piece of gear you literally just finished last week. Don't hook things up to gear you've never ever heard and hope for the best. Worse when things are going poorly I have seem teeth and claws out when a shared room partnership goes south. It's ugly. The DAC guy blames the cable guy blames the speaker guy blames everyone else. No matter how bad things get keep your friggin dirty laundry far away from the eyes and ears of clients. But none of that would be a problem if the proper pre show work is done.
Big name vendors- this paragraph applies EXCLUSIVELY to you. I know you will neither read this, nor if you did would you act upon it, so I'm pretty much free to do/say what I want here. You all suck with one exception - Kimber Kables/Isomike (OK, two exceptions TAD too!). Every year without fail your rooms are god damned terrible. Without fail. Wilson, legacy (which was better this year, but still overall bad), Dynaudio, Joseph, Focal, Nordost, B&W etc all set up mediocre sounding rooms and in many cases down right terrible. Many don't setup room treatment the rest don't have enough or setup improperly (no first reflection treatment???? WTF????). They have the least friendly most dispassionate people running the rooms. All of which have this attitude of 'well you should be amazed because LOOK! Big impressive shit you can't afford!' They really fail to prove to the true audiophiles why they should sell their house, wife and children for this gear. So my point? first just because your speakers are $450K does not mean you somehow sidestep physics and no longer require room treatment. Nor does your lofty price mean the system will just sound good in whatever room you plunk them down in. And the people running the rooms? Fire them all. Their snobbish attitude and lack of interest in showing even a modicum of polite human to human interaction is disgracing your brand.
Cater to your clientele
you'd think that would be a no brainer, but let me elaborate. Being friendly and welcoming is only the start. When potential customers sit down don't inundate them with your equipments bullshit specs. If we want to know we'll ask. Just launching into a prerecorded speech wastes our time, annoys people who are listening to music, and I promise you no one will remember a word you said. Harsh I know, but the system MUST speak for itself. If someone likes what they hear they will absolutely start asking questions.
Which brings me to another point. Take conversation out of the room as much as possible when people are listening. I know, you've been locked up in the room for 6 hours and it's hard not to interact with customers right there on the spot. But please, I can't tell you how many demos were absolutely ruined this year because of that issue. On to my next point
Too much in one room is a very bad thing. Some vendors have the larger corner rooms in the tower. These vendors invariably try to cram everything they can into these rooms. One went as far as to have a second smaller system playing in the bedroom that's attached to the main room which meant I got to listen to two systems at once! This vendor got very bad marks from me for their setup. Is it fair? No. Is it my fault they put themselves in this situation? No again. Showing off some speakers that aren't plugged into a system- great. Having a nice little cove to discuss your setup with clients- even better using the space to put another system in and letting people play with it!- Not really smart.
This next point is close to the heart. You absolutely positively 100% need to allow your customers the ability to listen to a CD and/or vinyl of their choosing. Few exceptions to this-If you are a vinyl only room you are exempt from the CD requirement. Same goes for digital only guys, no vinyl requirement. But if you're doing a server system you'd better damn well be ready to upload someones disc on the fly. Last exception- you have all the music ever recorded. Beyond that you are messing up bad if you are telling people they can't play their own music. This is a huge 'screw you' to potential customers plain and simple. Moving on.
Don't ever comment negatively on someones musical selection. Telling someone the system sounds bad because their music is poorly recorded is just about the worst thing you can do. I often bring poorly recorded music because it actually does a great job of showing a systems versatility. If a great system sounds great on great music... GREAT! If a great system sounds great on poorly recorded music... EVEN BETTER!!! If a great system sounds like garbage on poorly recorded music... NOT GREAT! This means I will not enjoy about 40% of my music if I buy your wares (this is bad in case you haven't figured it out) And no I will not stop listening to my poorly recorded music. :guitar: :rock: :drums:
Last- I was in CanJam listening to a headphone amp and playing with the controls on it when a vendor came up and hastily took the amp out of my hands and switched the controls back and said 'This is the optimal setup, just leave it there' This is actually the same vendor that told me my music was poorly recorded in a previous year. This vendor will never ever get a dime of my money. I understand you don't want people to screw up something, but innocuous things like eq, volume or DSP modes need to be fair play to show goers. Limiting peoples ability to tinker is not just condescending it's infuriating. Juxatpose to Odyssey room where Klaus handed me the remote and said 'Go ahead, crank as much as you want!'
Final thoughts
With the shrinking interest in Hifi, vendors are going to need to adapt. Obviously mastering the basics is essential and a good place to start, but more important? Time to take personal audio seriously. Headphones, portable amps, dacs etc are here. It is the only growth sector and it is exploding like mad. Many vendors have already figured it out and are riding the wave all the way to the bank. The rest of you need to understand where the market is going and adjust accordingly if you want to be around in 5 years. As dedicated to 2 channel as I am if I were running a company I know what I'd be doing.
Good luck to you all.
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Thank you. I've been hawking about room set-up since my first RMAF visit. Now, with several CES and AXPONA under my belt, I can say for sure that too many vendors are out in left field with their set-ups. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for something as simple as L/R being backwards or one side being out of phase, but I find these problems time and time again. If you are in charge of a room and YOU don't hear that things are swapped or out of phase, you ought to be put on the bench. This is the "Super Bowl" of HiFi, you all need to bring your A game.
Greg
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Pez,
All that and not one word about sucky music? No comments on playing the entire 20 minute movement of a boring piano recital that only uses 10 keys? Or some song that is more story-telling than music like Hugh Masekela Stimela (The Coal Train)--but hey, its only 10 minutes long. :duh:
Dude, you were too easy on them. Attendees time is precious and attention spans short when there are a lot of rooms to visit. Vendors need to be on their best game 100% of the time.
Give me music with a variety of instruments and vocals. Give me music with dynamics. Give me music with PRAT. Give me my music. :lol: :thumb:
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Show conditions are tough , small noisy rooms to work with , yet, there's no excuse for bad sound, understandable it wont be the best for most, but bad,
never .....
:banana piano:
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Seems to me either you need to be making headphone gear or home theater/mutlichannel now.
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I remember the guy in the room with the big Focals (NOT the one with the VAC gear) literally laughed at me when I asked to play my demo disc and there 1-2 other people in the room at the time.
One of his colleagues was talking to people outside the room and I told him what happened and he apologized and promised to play my track later, but damage done at that point.
I also got a condescending attitude about it in the Goldmund room, like I must be crazy to ask something like that... :duh: :nono:
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The reason HP and portable dacs are selling is because you can get good sound at much cheaper price. A full 2 channel set up is insanely priced.
The best thing you can do for your 2 channel system is work on your room thats the biggest battle. :guitar:
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I remember the guy in the room with the big Focals (NOT the one with the VAC gear) literally laughed at me when I asked to play my demo disc and there 1-2 other people in the room at the time.
One of his colleagues was talking to people outside the room and I told him what happened and he apologized and promised to play my track later, but damage done at that point.
I also got a condescending attitude about it in the Goldmund room, like I must be crazy to ask something like that... :duh: :nono:
I got the same thing from Alex (Wywires) though. People either will accommodate or not.
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I got the same thing from Alex (Wywires) though. People either will accommodate or not.
Which room? I know the Daedalus/ModWright room would play your music, vinyl or CD and the Zesto/TAD room would play your vinyl and both rooms used WyWires.
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Which room? I know the Daedalus/ModWright room would play your music, vinyl or CD and the Zesto/TAD room would play your vinyl and both rooms used WyWires.
Zesto with Alex. He said "No". He did the same thing last year but George said of course and did so.
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How about turning the table a bit ... some things attendees should consider.
Take the sweet spot if it's open. I can't tell you how many times there have been 5 people in the room, and none in the sweet spot.
If you don't like the music, make a request.
If it's too loud, ask us to turn it down.
If the room is hot or stuffy, let us know.
And definitely don't leave the room with unanswered questions about the products.
... we aren't mind readers.
In short, stop being so timid! Speaking for myself, all I ask is for the chance to give you the best experience possible.
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Zesto with Alex. He said "No". He did the same thing last year but George said of course and did so.
Good for George
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I've never been to RMAF, or any other audio show. After reading this, I might never do it either. I'm a pretty level dude, but one thing I can't stand is being around snobby people (especially one's who are supposed to be helpful). I won't be treated like a lesser person, or be disrespected, even if I can't afford $100k speakers.
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Hi, I usually just read on this forum but this thread compels me to add my thoughts for what they are worth. I see both sides (as an enthusiast and manufacturer), but I share the thoughts in the original post. I have been to RMAF before. I personally was absolutely underwhelmed by this year's one. I have set up equipment in similar rooms. Yes it is normally not optimal, but it can be done well. I find no excuse to have incompatible equipment. I agree 100% with the get it checked out and set up and tested before the show. We have always brought everything we needed. No last minute untested, unproven changes. This includes test equipment for the just in case something fails. Personally I would much rather have a good static display than an active one that sounded poorly. At this RMAF there was a lot of the latter. In my opinion very few set ups sounded decent. I would be embarrassed by many.
I provide the above comments because I care about audio and its future. Collectively we need to do better if it is to survive. I have heard better audio in big box stores than I heard at RMAF. Let us demonstrate that high quality music reproduction is not only desirable, but possible.
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I've never been to RMAF, or any other audio show. After reading this, I might never do it either. I'm a pretty level dude, but one thing I can't stand is being around snobby people (especially one's who are supposed to be helpful). I won't be treated like a lesser person, or be disrespected, even if I can't afford $100k speakers.
You really should go if you get a chance. The snobs are only in a couple of rooms, I chalk it up to bad parenting and move on. The people you meet make RMAF the best time ever, a hotel full of audio geeks, it doesn't get any better than this. And you get to meet all us cool AudioCircle guys and gals.
Wayne
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RDavidson, don't be deterred. Audio shows are fun. For folks like Pez and Tyson, it's kind of a workday, so maybe that's the POV of Pez's commentary.
I agree with a lot of what Pez said. Never been to RMAF, but at CAF once there was a vinyl only room where the vendor was literally telling everybody what to hear, carney-barker style- "See if you can hear Neil (Young) in the room..."- and do you know what, I still would have left even if his (fullrange driver) system hadn't sounded like crap. Like Pez says, the system should speak for itself.
Another vendor at CAF started giving me the high pressure sales routine, wanting to know what I had and pushing his gear. I lied about what I have just to get him to back off, but leaving the room was the only thing that really worked. Vendors have to realize, if they don't already, that most are there just to nerd out on audio gear. I'm not spending $100K for a 1.5WPC system that doesn't sound as good as my 1971 $330 Dynaco setup, even if I had it.
Somehow there needs to be an entry level. Nobody is going to get into quality home music reproduction if they think they have to spend $1000 on just the power cord to plug it into the wall. Personally I think that same $1000 would have 100X more effect if spent on room treatment, but to each his own. I have about $700 into my home headphone system and (to me) it sounds more musical than at least half of the equipment I heard at last year's CAF. Only a few, Odyssey, GT Audio Works, the Clue and a few others, seem to be bucking the trend. God bless 'em. (And to paraphrase a link shared on here elsewhere, if your speakers cost $450K, go to hell.)
Kudos to all the vendors who are into it because they love music. You can usually tell as soon as you walk into the room.
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I can tell you that Pez works harder at RMAF than he does at his real job, that's for sure!
It's funny, people say the shows are getting worse, but for us it's been getting better. Probably because we outright skip the mainstream audio rooms (Dynaudio, Wilson, TAD, Krell, VAC, VTL, Magico, Levinson, Martin Logan, Rockport, Esoteric, Focal, MBL, etc and etc, ad nauseum). Once we stopped wasting our time with all that crap, it freed us up to see the smaller, more passionate vendors. It's been an ongoing process. Every year we cut away more mainstream fat and as a result, every year the show gets better.
That said, it might be out last year of coverage. Pez and I have been talking about it quite a bit, calling it quits after this show. Not decided yet, but I wanted to mention that it's a possibility.
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How about turning the table a bit ... some things attendees should consider.
Take the sweet spot if it's open. I can't tell you how many times there have been 5 people in the room, and none in the sweet spot.
If you don't like the music, make a request.
If it's too loud, ask us to turn it down.
If the room is hot or stuffy, let us know.
And definitely don't leave the room with unanswered questions about the products.
... we aren't mind readers.
In short, stop being so timid! Speaking for myself, all I ask is for the chance to give you the best experience possible.
Ditto
Exhibitors should make every effort to achieve good sound, but it's not always easy.
Say they have a new "big" speaker they want to show, but the only demo room available is 12 x 17.
The big speaker overloads the tiny room and doesn't sound very good.
Their options are settle for this, use the same 6" 2-way every year, wait 3-5 years until a suitable room becomes available, or don't exhibit.
Realize that it's a show, things are rarely optimum.
You get to hear, see, touch, narrow down your choices.
Better than a car show where you only get to look at them from behind the velvet ropes :lol:
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Ditto
Exhibitors should make every effort to achieve good sound, but it's not always easy.
Say they have a new "big" speaker they want to show, but the only demo room available is 12 x 17.
The big speaker overloads the tiny room and doesn't sound very good.
Their options are settle for this, use the same 6" 2-way every year, wait 3-5 years until a suitable room becomes available, or don't exhibit.
... or build balanced speakers that don't overload rooms.
A 50hz wavelength is 22' long whether it's coming out of a 15" woofer or a 6" one. It's imbalanced speakers that overload rooms once room gain is added in, size shouldn't have anything to do with it.
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...OR to put it a different way. Build speakers that are designed to work *with* the room instead of against it.
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I've never been to RMAF, or any other audio show. After reading this, I might never do it either. I'm a pretty level dude, but one thing I can't stand is being around snobby people (especially one's who are supposed to be helpful). I won't be treated like a lesser person, or be disrespected, even if I can't afford $100k speakers.
RDavidson, Please don't be dissuaded by a few complaints. At least try one show for yourself and then decide. Bad experiences tend to be remembered and commented on more than normal experiences. The vast majority of exhibitors are great people with a sincere passion for the products they manufacture or represent. They are fun, energetic , creative and courteous hosts. However, I do see some issues.
Most exhibitors wear too many hats and some don't fit. They may be great at design but very poor at marketing or room set up. But those are tasks they must undertake.
How would you like to attend 6-8 or more audio shows a year? Would you get a little bored and apathetic? Think about it from the exhibitors perspective. With the dramatically increased number of shows, some are approaching burn out. Also remember that they may be exhausted before the gates open for the hordes. They have traveled farther than the locals and spent a tiring day unpacking and setting up. Maybe they could not get their equipment delivered to their room until late and had to rush to set up. And after the show they have to tear down and repack and deal with hotel staff to get equipment moved out. I do not know how the small shows work but at CES I think all equipment is received at a central location and hotel employees transfer it to and from the rooms. That puts the exhibitor at the mercy of their schedule.
There are some issues that I think are not negotiable. Attendees must be allowed to hear music they are familiar with or the entire effort is lost. The reason for the exhibitors being there is unfulfilled. And when there is no immediate request by an attendee the exhibitors personal choices need to be better. I can cut exhibitors a lot of slack for some things but not on this issue. I swear I don't know what some are thinking. If they don't have a clue they should get one from what the attendees bring. Sure a lot of it is dreck but there are some gems to be heard and remembered.
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I want to expand this to any audio show:
This next point is close to the heart. You absolutely positively 100% need to allow your customers the ability to listen to a CD and/or vinyl of their choosing. Few exceptions to this-If you are a vinyl only room you are exempt from the CD requirement. Same goes for digital only guys, no vinyl requirement. But if you're doing a server system you'd better damn well be ready to upload someones disc on the fly. Last exception- you have all the music ever recorded. Beyond that you are messing up bad if you are telling people they can't play their own music. This is a huge 'screw you' to potential customers plain and simple. Moving on.
Aren't they still telling people "screw you" when they only have one source type?
If you spent a lot of time and money to display at one of those events, wouldn't it be in your best interest to do what it takes to attract customers? The guy who listens to vinyl cant evaluate equipment if he can't play what he is familiar with.
Don't ever comment negatively on someones musical selection. Telling someone the system sounds bad because their music is poorly recorded is just about the worst thing you can do. I often bring poorly recorded music because it actually does a great job of showing a systems versatility. If a great system sounds great on great music... GREAT! If a great system sounds great on poorly recorded music... EVEN BETTER!!! If a great system sounds like garbage on poorly recorded music... NOT GREAT! This means I will not enjoy about 40% of my music if I buy your wares (this is bad in case you haven't figured it out) And no I will not stop listening to my poorly recorded music.
So you're saying that people don't always listen to audiophile approved music?
You like to crank that popular stuff and "rock out with your .... ..."?
I will add some:
1. The show lasts until Sunday late afternoon. Some people can't make the show until Sunday (people who live local to a show). If you pack up early, you are denying them the pleasure of enjoying your equipment.
2. Is it possible to have too much equipment? I notice with Salk speakers that had a dozen pairs of speakers in their room (over exaggerating). A few is ok to compare a couple of lines but when there is wall to wall speakers it overcomplicates things in my book. Get a second or third room if you got that much stuff.
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RDavidson, don't be deterred. Audio shows are fun. For folks like Pez and Tyson, it's kind of a workday, so maybe that's the POV of Pez's commentary.
I agree with a lot of what Pez said. Never been to RMAF, but at CAF once there was a vinyl only room where the vendor was literally telling everybody what to hear, carney-barker style- "See if you can hear Neil (Young) in the room..."- and do you know what, I still would have left even if his (fullrange driver) system hadn't sounded like crap. Like Pez says, the system should speak for itself.
Another vendor at CAF started giving me the high pressure sales routine, wanting to know what I had and pushing his gear. I lied about what I have just to get him to back off, but leaving the room was the only thing that really worked.
Ha! I know exactly which two vendors you're referring to. Had the same experience, and walked out on both.
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I brought a USB stick with DSF files so I could hear my own DSD selections in rooms that had DSD playback. I was surprised at how many of these rooms either didn't have the ability to or wouldn't accept a USB stick as input for music. Kind of made this part of the show a let down.
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I agree with most of the comments here but I think it is unrealistic to think that each room should have the ability to play any music in any format that people show up with. I would expect every room to have the ability to play CDs. The popularity of vinyl with the audio show crowd would suggest to vendors that they have a turntable setup too. And it doesn't have to be a $100k TT. Beyond that, people are expecting too much from these people.
If they don't let you play your own music then they should expect people to be disinterested in their products.
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All they need is an Oppo deck or equivalent and they can play literally anything other than vinyl. Majority of rooms at CAF seemed to be computer based so should be able to play anything on a CD or flash drive (I bring both). Transporting and setting up a TT is a major PITA so that is a judgment call. But if all you have is a music server with tried-and-true/overplayed stuff, you're selling yourself and your potential customers short. I listen to some road-less-travelled music that I guarantee is not on anybody's server box.
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All they need is an Oppo deck or equivalent and they can play literally anything other than vinyl. Majority of rooms at CAF seemed to be computer based so should be able to play anything on a CD or flash drive (I bring both). Transporting and setting up a TT is a major PITA so that is a judgment call. But if all you have is a music server with tried-and-true/overplayed stuff, you're selling yourself and your potential customers short. I listen to some road-less-travelled music that I guarantee is not on anybody's server box.
Understood, but not every vendor uses Oppo equipment. And not every CD player can play DSD or a flash drive. But, they can play CDs. We, as customers, need to be flexible too.
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...OR to put it a different way. Build speakers that are designed to work *with* the room instead of against it.
Ding ding ding!!!!
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A 50hz wavelength is 22' long whether it's coming out of a 15" woofer or a 6" one. It's imbalanced speakers that overload rooms once room gain is added in, size shouldn't have anything to do with it.
and wavelength of 20hz is 56'... put a 10 octave speaker in a small room and it will overload... the room causes this not the speaker.
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RDavidson,
Don;t take this thread as the typical experience at audio shows, but instead as the wish list or demand list from some of its more experienced attendees. A good number of rooms and manufacturers are ok and need only honest feedback. The REAL benefits of attending an audio show are: meeting fellow audiophiles you've chatted with online, meeting new audiophiles, meeting friends you've come to make via this crazy hobby, meeting manufacturers and dealers that are truly passionate about audio and music....and finally, having the ability to touch and feel the product quality. If you hear something that sounds good you have a huge bonus.
That being said, as an audio show veteran I agree with most of the comments here, especially the ones about the ill-prepared room hosts.
* C'mon! Your dealer network is either so small or now defunct that this is your only real chance to show off your gear to the waiting public! How are you ill-prepared?? I realize setup may have been a mess due to hotel f-ups, but it's now Saturday and you still don;t know whats going on in your room? Yes, it's your fourth audio show this year, but this is the biz you decided on, these are your selling opportunities, and you are essentially selling direct so make some money and give people a good product!
* How the hell did you decide to bring speakers that are way too big for the room? If so, make them static displays....cut your losses.
* How the hell did you decide to bring speakers (amps, DACs, etc) that have never been played, and need 300 more hours of break-in (unless it's the world premier, and even then, they should have had some mileage on them back home).
* Ask folks to take their discussions out to the hallway...or just have static displays. This "ask" includes your own employees/partners.
Finally, if you find a room that you really like, ask the hosts if they are having an after-party. It's those moments where you really get to hear some good audio, make some great contacts (and usually get to drink their beer, etc).
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Pez,
"ALELUYA BROTHER" Very well put!
A short one...a local guy (Audiophile) showed up in our room at one point, seats in the sweet spot (no one else in the room at the time), looks at me with a serious face and said - what are you waiting for "put some music" - I responded... I am waiting for you to hand me a CD...he gets up fast in front of me - I thought he was going to punch me, and he said "very good point and I never thought about it" - he gave me a "high five". I put a CD on and told him - don't walk in this room next year if you don't bring some of your own music :lol: :lol:
Alex
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* How the hell did you decide to bring speakers (amps, DACs, etc) that have never been played, and need 300 more hours of break-in (unless it's the world premier, and even then, they should have had some mileage on them back home).
I think this is understandable in some cases... If you have made press releases saying xxx show is going to be the world debut of this new thing and a supplier does not deliver the parts on time then it's a decision between going against the press release or bringing gear than needs more break-in. Personally, I would choose to go against the press-release and say "It's not ready yet", but I can also understand making the decision to bring it if it's performing somewhat close to a fully broke-in component, but then you're making excuses which is never a good thing. I can see this being a tough spot to be in, or put yourself in rather.
In any case, I am sitting here waiting on parts that were supposed to be delivered weeks ago, I do understand that not everything can be controlled by one person or business, and the saying $hit happens is true, not only that... $hit happens ALL THE TIME. :green:
RDavidson, I agree with the other comments, there's a bad apple in every group and unfortunately it's no different in audio shows. I got a bad attitude in 2 rooms out of all the ones I visited and the good outweighs the bad 20:1... if you like audio it's worth going.
I'd also say it's been my experience that huge speakers with a lot of surface area/displacement + small rooms are going to overload, the speaker could be perfectly designed and it's still going to happen. The best of the best huge speakers and associated gear in the smallest display room will give you that overloaded sound no matter what IME. Last year's Alexandria XLF system with the Thor's Hammer subs would not have sounded nearly as good in a small hotel room, and some vendors can't get suites, I've heard you can wait years for a good larger room so it's not like there's tons of options in every case. One possible solution is to bring smaller speakers but if the new speaker you built might be too big for a small room then the choice is to just not show it at all, and I'm not sure that's a great solution either. Also, I don't know room rates exactly but the smallest room is a few grand so we're not talking cheap rent for a large room either.
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RDavidson, I agree with the other comments, there's a bad apple in every group and unfortunately it's no different in audio shows. I got a bad attitude in 2 rooms out of all the ones I visited and the good outweighs the bad 20:1... if you like audio it's worth going.
Agree, most at the show are friendly people. However, elitism and ego are rampant in this luxury market microcosm. Even I am on the receiving end from time to time. You the consumer have all the power by choosing where to spend your money. Remember the companies who treat you that way and don't support them.
I'd also say it's been my experience that huge speakers with a lot of surface area/displacement + small rooms are going to overload, the speaker could be perfectly designed and it's still going to happen. The best of the best huge speakers and associated gear in the smallest display room will give you that overloaded sound no matter what IME. Last year's Alexandria XLF system with the Thor's Hammer subs would not have sounded nearly as good in a small hotel room
I understand the thinking and based on the product most companies put it, that thesis is supported. It's just not the case however, size of the speaker or drivers used is not what overloads rooms. Imbalance combined with room gain is what does. What creates the problem is manufacturers ignoring room acoustics and not giving the consumer any way to deal with higher amplitude room gain profiles found in smaller rooms. I could go on but don't want to tangent, only point is there are plenty of ways to make large speakers work just fine in small rooms ... but because of the extra effort and cost of large crossover components needed to do it correctly, most often it simply isn't done.
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I had a little snobbery from the amplifier company I am considering, but I didn't write off the whole company because of one person and their attitude. I look past that when I can when the products have a great reputation.
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I had a little snobbery from the amplifier company I am considering, but I didn't write off the whole company because of one person and their attitude. I look past that when I can when the products have a great reputation.
Give them a call...I think you will get a different kind of interaction. I have at least.
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BRM,
I hope it was not us. :)
Thanks for stopping by Pete.
Hugh
I had a little snobbery from the amplifier company I am considering, but I didn't write off the whole company because of one person and their attitude. I look past that when I can when the products have a great reputation.
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BRM,
I hope it was not us. :)
Thanks for stopping by Pete.
Hugh
Heck no! You and Tim are always very kind. :thumb:
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Thank you so much J.
Sometime, I looked like I was absent-minded so if that's the case, please overlook my old age. :)
Heck no! You and Tim are always very kind. :thumb:
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To all of this, I would add the recommendation that exhibitors play a variety of types of music in a room if they are not filling specific requests. Frustrating to sit through a few songs that sound so similar and don't reveal much new about the speaker compared to the track before it.
I mentioned to Jude and a number of the CanJam exhibitors my advice that exhibitors load up their sources with a huge amount and array of music. And this goes for speaker exhibitors too of course. Sometimes the selection was so limited I couldn't find what I'd assumed to be staples, like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd or Radiohead.
Shows have always been great experiences for me (in no small part due to meeting ACers in person), but yes they have their downsides, which have been covered nicely in this thread.
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BRM,
I hope it was not us. :)
Thanks for stopping by Pete.
Hugh
Hell no. You're always a treat!!
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2. Is it possible to have too much equipment? I notice with Salk speakers that had a dozen pairs of speakers in their room (over exaggerating). A few is ok to compare a couple of lines but when there is wall to wall speakers it overcomplicates things in my book. Get a second or third room if you got that much stuff.
This is the third RMAF I planned to attend and just could not make it as a consumer, just had other business commitments and could not make it. Each time I looked into the cost for me to attend, Its not a cheap trip for me. Not knowing the details of the Salk room this years, I do know, that several interested parties like my self, go to see certain speakers/ products with the intention to decide to buy, with no other opportunity to see the equipment. I know persons that request / beg that the product they are interested in be present at the show. Considering the cost/ expense for a individual consumer to go, its awful hard to turn down the request. It is not just to be able to make a sell but to be fair to the person making the effort and laying down the cash.
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All,
We were in the CanJam section this year, but we do a number of shows each year (in the hotel rooms). The feedback of the show attendees is ESSENTIAL for making the show a success for BOTH the attendees and the exhibitors, so this thread started by Pez is very valuable and I
hope more posts like this surface and also make their way to the companies that host these shows (e.g. Chester Group, Marjorie of RMAF, etc.) so they can pass it along to the exhibitors. Hopefully with lots of feedback and ideas from the attendees, the exhibitors can make the experience more fun and interactive. There really is no point in us spending the time and money on these shows if the attendees aren't having a good time and interacting.
The shows are not cheap for us small guys, so I appreciate the feedback to help make these shows more meaningful to everyone.
I'm not sure we'll ever have a 'standard' set of guidelines that all exhibitors and attendees will agree on, but suggested models / ideas like what Pez started with on this thread can be worked on and put into action, regarding things like:
- Allowing attendees to play their music (or at least select from a collection of music that the exhibitor has on hand)
- Taking conversations outside as much as possible (not always easy because people come up to you and want to chat, but if it is going
on for more than a minute, it should move outside the room to not distract people. I'm not always good at this one! :oops:)
- Attitudes of BOTH exhibitors and attendees (lets face it - the world it filled with all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds, so getting this
'adjusted' is not always easy). Some attendees are just as rude and snobby as the exhibitors. I'm not sure what it will take to improve this, but it needs work! :duh:
- Room comfort (temperature, odor, etc). I"m not going to lie - some people come into the rooms with terrible BO, and it lingers for a while even after they leave. It's not fair for the exhibitors and the people who come in afterwards. Perhaps cans of Febreze are a necessity :idea:
- Volume level >> some people want to play it loud and rock out, and others want to hear how a system sounds at lower levels. But when the room is packed with people, it is challenging to make everyone happy at the same time. Ideas?
- Played out music >> I try to avoid the same old tracks that I hear every time I walk through the halls (e.g. Hotel California, Tea for the Tilleraman, Krall, Pink Floyd, etc.), but BELIEVE ME - some attendees ask for this. Really! "Can you play something by Diana Krall?" "Got anything with female voice and a guitar?" "Got any DSOTM?" Or they hand me a disc with these played out demo tracks, but we want to make the attendees happy, so we'll play it. Then I'm sure people come into the room and think "oh no, not another room playing XYZ!" If you say "we don't play that in this room" - it is snobby! So how do we make it a win-win for everyone?
Here is anther thing that happens often: I'm playing jazz, and someone remarks "I'm so bored of hearing jazz in these rooms - don't you have any classical music?" So I play classical - and someone says the same thing - "All I hear at these shows is classical music, don't you have any blues?" Then when you play blues, somebody is tired of that and wants "singer/songwriter music" or "female vocals." You play female vocals and then someone complains there is not enough music with male vocals being played! :lol: :banghead: You get the idea!
NOTE - not everyone does this sort of thing and it doesn't happen all the time, but it happens quite a bit and I try not to LOL or take offense. It's just inevitable because people and their tastes (and how they choose to express them) are so different.
I'll sign off on this by saying what others have said - It's a two-way street and we ALL can work on improving things. Hopefully we can work together and make it a lot better for everyone. Count me in!
Anyway - cool thread and I look forward to seeing more feedback and ideas, because these shows are supposed to be FUN and something that everyone looks forward to coming to! 8)
Vinnie
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Here is anther thing that happens often: I'm playing jazz, and someone remarks "I'm so bored of hearing jazz in these rooms - don't you have any classical music?" So I play classical - and someone says the same thing - "All I hear at these shows is classical music, don't you have any blues?" Then when you play blues, somebody is tired of that and wants "singer/songwriter music" or "female vocals." You play female vocals and then someone complains there is not enough music with male vocals being played! :lol: :banghead: You get the idea!
Yeah, this is why I think it is important for exhibitors to mix up the selections that they play and perhaps try to play shorter tracks or only excerpts from very long tracks. Tracks that aid in evaluating gear's ability with multiple components of music that are being listened for are also worth playing. Maybe I don't like the track being played personally, but if I can use it to evaluate dynamics, male vocals, stringed instruments etc. then I am less grumpy about hearing music I am not to big a fan of.
My biggest achievement at RMAF: I did not hear Hotel California or the Eagles once!!!
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I heard the same Stevie Ray Vaughn track 3 TIMES IN A ROW going to 3 different rooms. That was eerie.
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My biggest achievement at RMAF: I did not hear Hotel California or the Eagles once!!!
Glad you weren't in the PS Audio room when I had control of the music because I played HC from Hell Freezes Over. :lol: Paul didn't have a lot of rock on his server (Laura doesn't do jazz or classical) and couldn't play vinyl, so I looked for something with which I am very familiar so I could have a baseline comparison. No question there are selections that are over-played, but for many of us, those selections enable us to evaluate a room or equipment against very familiar music. In this case, HC was dull and lacked the clarity and tonality I am used to hearing.
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Very well said Vinnie! As you point out, it is totally a 2-way street. Attendees need to speak up in order to get the experience they want, vendors need to strive to be more accommodating.
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Great to see everyone posting in this thread! Especially vendors. Like I said before the ones who care about what us ACers think are already the ones doing it right mostly... Crazy how great this community works to connect vendors and enthusiasts! I'm just glad We have the chance to speak openly and freely about all of this. I'm seeing a lot of great suggestions and things that make me say 'Oh crap! Why didn't I think of that' keep the comments coming! :thumb:
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I can tell you that Pez works harder at RMAF than he does at his real job, that's for sure!
It's funny, people say the shows are getting worse, but for us it's been getting better. Probably because we outright skip the mainstream audio rooms (Dynaudio, Wilson, TAD, Krell, VAC, VTL, Magico, Levinson, Martin Logan, Rockport, Esoteric, Focal, MBL, etc and etc, ad nauseum). Once we stopped wasting our time with all that crap, it freed us up to see the smaller, more passionate vendors. It's been an ongoing process. Every year we cut away more mainstream fat and as a result, every year the show gets better.
That said, it might be out last year of coverage. Pez and I have been talking about it quite a bit, calling it quits after this show. Not decided yet, but I wanted to mention that it's a possibility.
Please say it isn't true... I know it is a lot of work but you two do the best show coverage, more pics, you don't pull punches and people get a real feel for the show from your writing.... I could go on but since I am inside this game I shouldn't.
I think it would be fair for some contributions to come your way, at least to cover the big dinner and maybe your own hotel room?
Trust me you guys are VERY appreciated!!!!
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Zesto with Alex. He said "No". He did the same thing last year but George said of course and did so.
I'm quite surprised by this comment as I have worked with Alex for several years and have always found him to be a gentleman. Dan, Alex and I are all in agreement about trying to play requests whenever possible, and I have seen Alex often ask people in the room if they have any music they would like to play. I will admit I did turn down one persons request this year as he wanted to play "Rush" with others in the room, I did play other music of his though.... :wink:
At this show Alex was in the CanJam most of the time and only staffed the Zesto room at lunch, and he has no recollection of flat out saying "no", of course they only had vinyl in that room so if someone asked to play a CD he would have to decline.
Bottom line is that most of the vendors I know including Alex, George, Dan, Klaus, Duke, myself and more try to make this all work as pleasantly as possible for everyone and are as accommodating as we can be.
thanks,
Lou
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I would never take request from show goers, it's the worst thing one can do when at a trade show, it's a can of worms and only lead to having to take more request from everyone, who by now feels entitled and offended if not. If someone is truly interested , Best to arrange to have a demo with their own selections at an appropriate time.
What seems to be the real issue is the poorly selected music by most, this is where the stepping up needs to take place ......
-My 2 cents
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I would never take request from show goers, it's the worst thing one can do when at a trade show, it's a can of worms and only lead to having to take more request from everyone, who by now feels entitled and offended if not. If someone is truly interested , Best to arrange to have a demo with their own selections at an appropriate time.
What seems to be the real issue is the poorly selected music by most, this is where the stepping up needs to take place ......
-My 2 cents
You'd be right at home in the Wilson room.....
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How would you know, i thought you skipped all mainstream audio rooms ..... :green:
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I would never take request from show goers, it's the worst thing one can do when at a trade show, it's a can of worms and only lead to having to take more request from everyone, who by now feels entitled and offended if not. If someone is truly interested , Best to arrange to have a demo with their own selections at an appropriate time.
What seems to be the real issue is the poorly selected music by most, this is where the stepping up needs to take place ......
-My 2 cents
As a show goer, I totally disagree. What better way to evaluate gear than by hearing music you are intimately familiar with? Now, of course brought by me in rooms in which I am very interested in the gear. I also think that it is best not to request tracks you bring in a crowded room.
Your 2 cents on this are to my mind a sure way to alienate a show goer, especially those with less conventional tastes in music.
Not clear on why having to accept requests from more and more people is a bad thing. If you are not able to accommodate everyone's requests, this can be handled diplomatically. Perhaps by arranging a later time that they can demo their music. Someone accepts this offer, and you know that they are more likely serious about that gear.
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I would never take request from show goers, it's the worst thing one can do when at a trade show, it's a can of worms and only lead to having to take more request from everyone, who by now feels entitled and offended if not. If someone is truly interested , Best to arrange to have a demo with their own selections at an appropriate time.
What seems to be the real issue is the poorly selected music by most, this is where the stepping up needs to take place ......
-My 2 cents
Then it is a good thing you are not an exhibitor because IMO an important part of interaction between exhibitors and attendees is allowing attendees to play music with which they are familiar. I can't evaluate a system if all I hear is jazz, classical or "approved" audiophile recordings. All of us have different tastes and likes in music and as long as show goers aren't asking to play the entire 18 minutes of Echoes, their requests to play a single cut or track or a demo disc should be accommodated. If an exhibitor won't play a request, whether my music, on their server or a CD/vinyl they have in the room, then I'm leaving the room and I'm not coming back.
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Please say it isn't true... I know it is a lot of work but you two do the best show coverage, more pics, you don't pull punches and people get a real feel for the show from your writing.... I could go on but since I am inside this game I shouldn't.
I think it would be fair for some contributions to come your way, at least to cover the big dinner and maybe your own hotel room?
Trust me you guys are VERY appreciated!!!!
For me it's not the money, at all. Its that it was just plain more fun 3 or 4 years ago when we were just some nobodies that could slip in and out of a room undetected and write whatever the hell we wanted in some obscure forum that no one read. We've done everything we can to avoid being taken seriously. A couple of years ago it resulted in job offers from a few magazines (fuck them), and this year it was offers of "reserved time" in rooms and special treatment from vendors (which we turned down, too). But you see where it's heading, and it makes me pretty damn uncomfortable.
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How would you know, i thought you skipped all mainstream audio rooms ..... :green:
Haven't always. It was only hard experience that brought us to that decision.
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As a show goer, I totally disagree. What better way to evaluate gear than by hearing music you are intimately familiar with? Now, of course brought by me in rooms in which I am very interested in the gear. I also think that it is best not to request tracks you bring in a crowded room.
Your 2 cents on this are to my mind a sure way to alienate a show goer, especially those with less conventional tastes in music.
Not clear on why having to accept requests from more and more people is a bad thing. If you are not able to accommodate everyone's requests, this can be handled diplomatically. Perhaps by arranging a later time that they can demo their music. Someone accepts this offer, and you know that they are more likely serious about that gear.
OK Devils advocate ,
There's 30 show goers in the room what makes you think they want to hear your selection, why is your selection so special it overrides those of the other 29 and wrong on assumption 2, a serious buyer would want to listen to their own selection with less traffic and noise , so they would gladly arrange and come back , tire kickers on the other hand, not ..!!!
Scenario 3: Now all 30 wants to hear their special selection, then what, remember the show is about manufacturers presenting their products in the best possible way they know, their way, what you are requesting is changing act 2 scene 3 at the movies to your choice while other's sit and watch your editing .
far fetched What's next , what if i wanted to hear the system with my own amplifier, should i carry my own amplifier and have it accepted... ?
Any serious buyer would gladly accept private time .....
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Then it is a good thing you are not an exhibitor because IMO an important part of interaction between exhibitors and attendees is allowing attendees to play music with which they are familiar. I can't evaluate a system if all I hear is jazz, classical or "approved" audiophile recordings. All of us have different tastes and likes in music and as long as show goers aren't asking to play the entire 18 minutes of Echoes, their requests to play a single cut or track or a demo disc should be accommodated. If an exhibitor won't play a request, whether my music, on their server or a CD/vinyl they have in the room, then I'm leaving the room and I'm not coming back.
Was an exhibitor for many years, never had an empty room, never took request unless private , never had a complaint about music nor selection, good music and sound is always appreciated... We always made special time for those wanting to hear their selection, not going to take 30 request from those narcissistic enuff to be offended that someone didnt and i'm not talking being rudely turned down , being rude is a no no at any event .
By not taking request , no one is offended and you wont offend as many people as if you played some nutter music job and have everyone scatter :lol: then later read how horrible the sound in the room was because they happened to walk in at that time......
Yep such is the animal ...
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OK Devils advocate ,
There's 30 show goers in the room what makes you think they want to hear your selection, why is your selection so special it overrides those of the other 29 and wrong on assumption 2, a serious buyer would want to listen to their own selection with less traffic and noise , so they would gladly arrange and come back , tire kickers on the other hand, not ..!!!
Scenario 3: Now all 30 wants to hear their special selection, then what, remember the show is about manufacturers presenting their products in the best possible way they know, their way, what you are requesting is changing act 2 scene 3 at the movies to your choice while other's sit and watch your editing .
far fetched What's next , what if i wanted to hear the system with my own amplifier, should i carry my own amplifier and have it accepted... ?
Any serious buyer would gladly accept private time .....
Have you ever been to RMAF, CAF or a similar show? Your posts tell me you are absolutely clueless about what happens in a room at RMAF. 90% of the rooms get crowded with 10 people in the room and could never fit 30. I've been to 10 straight RMAFs plus the last two CAFs and I have never experienced anything close to what you have posted. I make requests all the time and most exhibitors ask me what I would like to hear. It's not a problem.
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I would never take request from show goers, it's the worst thing one can do when at a trade show, it's a can of worms and only lead to having to take more request from everyone, who by now feels entitled and offended if not. If someone is truly interested , Best to arrange to have a demo with their own selections at an appropriate time.
What seems to be the real issue is the poorly selected music by most, this is where the stepping up needs to take place ......
-My 2 cents
Then how would you expect people to get a sense for what the equipment sounds like? I can only tell when I am hearing something familiar. Why is it opening a can of worms? I don't understand that part.
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For me it's not the money, at all. Its that it was just plain more fun 3 or 4 years ago when we were just some nobodies that could slip in and out of a room undetected and write whatever the hell we wanted in some obscure forum that no one read. We've done everything we can to avoid being taken seriously. A couple of years ago it resulted in job offers from a few magazines (fuck them), and this year it was offers of "reserved time" in rooms and special treatment from vendors (which we turned down, too). But you see where it's heading, and it makes me pretty damn uncomfortable.
I can respect that .....
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Have you ever been to RMAF, CAF or a similar show? Your posts tell me you are absolutely clueless about what happens in a room at RMAF. 90% of the rooms get crowded with 10 people in the room and could never fit 30. I've been to 10 straight RMAFs plus the last two CAFs and I have never experienced anything close to what you have posted. I make requests all the time and most exhibitors ask me what I would like to hear. It's not a problem.
Is this a serious response, "devils advocate " it doesnt matter if 5 or 10, or 60 over a day or 100 ......
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Is this a serious response, "devils advocate " it doesnt matter if 5 or 10, or 60 over a day or 100 ......
I repeat, clueless
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Then how would you expect people to get a sense for what the equipment sounds like? I can only tell when I am hearing something familiar. Why is it opening a can of worms? I don't understand that part.
Familiar to what, your current reference , your system?
If you look at what i said and currently suggesting. requests duly taken and then the time made to allow interested parties to hear what they want in an appropriate settings, quite room no traffic , play anything you want...
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I repeat, clueless
Yes , i can see that, comprehension , No ! Not to worry I wont hold it against you .....
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Corollary to the point about letting people listen to their own music:
If you let someone listen to their own track, don't just switch to something else randomly in the middle of the track! This happened to me quite often at RMAF this year. There were one or two tracks that I wanted to hear in the rooms I was most interested in, and each of these tracks started slow and built over time. They were often just about to get to the point that would really test the system when the vendor would just switch back to their own music.
I'm not saying vendors can never switch back - if a bunch of new people come into the room or something, I don't know. But they should at least have the respect to ask the attendee that requested and is listening carefully to this track they care about if it's alright to switch back due to this or that. It's no use to allow people to request music on your system if you're not willing to go all the way and let them hear their stuff. Realize there will be some awful (to you, and probably other show-goers) music that is requested. And it may sound like shit on your system. But as Pez articulated quite well, that's should be fine, and is sometimes intentional on the part of the show-goer to see how the system sounds with shittily-recorded music.
I, for one, would be fine with you telling others in the room that this was a request of an attendee, and that you'll be switching to something else shortly. Hell, bring a sign that says "attendee-requested song" or something like that, so that when someone new walks into the room they know what's going on in there, and that you'll be cueing something else up shortly if they don't like what they hear.
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Was an exhibitor for many years, never had an empty room, never took request unless private , never had a complaint about music nor selection, good music and sound is always appreciated... We always made special time for those wanting to hear their selection, not going to take 30 request from those narcissistic enuff to be offended that someone didnt and i'm not talking being rudely turned down , being rude is a no no at any event .
By not taking request , no one is offended and you wont offend as many people as if you played some nutter music job and have everyone scatter :lol: then later read how horrible the sound in the room was because they happened to walk in at that time......
Yep such is the animal ...
Clearly you viewed it as YOUR show. I view it as THEIR show.
You come into my room, speak up and you'll get whatever you want.
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Attendee demo music does not have to be a disaster. I am sorry some vendors take that attitude. Quite frankly despite the occasional bomb from an attendee their music is frequently better than the exhibitor’s choices. No attendee should expect to hear an entire track unless the room is empty. If they picked a song that takes more than 2 minutes to get to the part they want, they picked the wrong track for a show. It might be a great track for use at home but not at a show unless the room is empty or nearly so and others don't object.
A few years ago I was at T.H.E. Show in Las Vegas. A room had just emptied out when I was walking in. The exhibitor was happy to play my compilation demo disk. I have numerous tracks designed to test various parameters in less than 60 seconds, frequently only 30 seconds. I know what I am listening for and get there quickly then move to the next track. I have even been complimented on that as well as the music choices.
I had listened to some tracks longer than normally because the room was empty and sounded great but then a group of young men came in together and sat behind me. I play well with others and am careful to not hog the sweet spot. After playing parts of a couple more tracks I felt it was time to let someone else have a turn. I turned to the exhibitor, complimented the system (it really was one of the best I heard at CES/T.H.E. Show that year), thanked him and told him to stop the track so someone else could take my seat and put on their music.
I heard a resounding NO! from at least 2 guys behind me. One emphatically said “leave it on”. I looked back at the exhibitor and he was standing their laughing and grinning from ear to ear.
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I would never take request from show goers, it's the worst thing one can do when at a trade show, it's a can of worms and only lead to having to take more request from everyone, who by now feels entitled and offended if not. If someone is truly interested , Best to arrange to have a demo with their own selections at an appropriate time.
What seems to be the real issue is the poorly selected music by most, this is where the stepping up needs to take place ......
-My 2 cents
There a many reviewers that bring their music during show hours to quickly evaluate systems.
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- Played out music >> I try to avoid the same old tracks that I hear every time I walk through the halls (e.g. Hotel California, Tea for the Tilleraman, Krall, Pink Floyd, etc.), but BELIEVE ME - some attendees ask for this. Really! "Can you play something by Diana Krall?" "Got anything with female voice and a guitar?" "Got any DSOTM?" Or they hand me a disc with these played out demo tracks, but we want to make the attendees happy, so we'll play it. Then I'm sure people come into the room and think "oh no, not another room playing XYZ!" If you say "we don't play that in this room" - it is snobby! So how do we make it a win-win for everyone?
Here is anther thing that happens often: I'm playing jazz, and someone remarks "I'm so bored of hearing jazz in these rooms - don't you have any classical music?" So I play classical - and someone says the same thing - "All I hear at these shows is classical music, don't you have any blues?" Then when you play blues, somebody is tired of that and wants "singer/songwriter music" or "female vocals." You play female vocals and then someone complains there is not enough music with male vocals being played! :lol: :banghead: You get the idea!
NOTE - not everyone does this sort of thing and it doesn't happen all the time, but it happens quite a bit and I try not to LOL or take offense. It's just inevitable because people and their tastes (and how they choose to express them) are so different.
Having been on both attendee and helping to exhibit roughly equally, I can say with certainty this is true. I made certain there was no Eagles, James Taylor, Steveie Ray, Diana Krall, Patricia Barber and other audiophile staples on the Mike's playlist this year, even if I do still enjoy some of it. That of course didn't stop folks from asking for some of these. I did try to put on stuff that I both enjoyed and covered various genres and styles but no matter what you can't make everyone happy. Now, for Rich (HAL), I knew he was coming and made sure to have some Black Sabbath for him... :icon_twisted: Of course others in the room had their favorites on the play list, so it's a mixed bag. One thing that was fun but not very feasible during normal show hours was enabling AirPlay on the ARIES streamer. On Saturday night, during the beer session, one visitor wanted to listen to something on his phone. We added him to the wifi, turned on AirPlay and it worked perfectly, he could play his tunes as desired and it didn't skip a beat. 'Twas very cool.
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Fair enough, Don, but I would still say a little communication could go a long way. If you aren't going to let me listen to the whole track, maybe let me know up front and I won't pick a track that takes a while to get to the point. Or I'll tell you to fast forward to the part I really want to hear. Or if it depends on whether I'm the only one in the room, let me know that up-front so I know if other people walk in you might switch it. To me, it's all about all parties having a common set of expectations about the experience up-front - which requires a minimal level of good respectful communication skills on the part of all parties.
Some of the rooms actually did quite a lot of the above, and I appreciated it. Others just abruptly changed it on me.
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Clearly you viewed it as YOUR show. I view it as THEIR show.
You come into my room, speak up and you'll get whatever you want.
Whatever works for you , clearly you view it differently , not from me , but your main competition , up the road ....
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There a many reviewers that bring their music during show hours to quickly evaluate systems.
I know, best at that special time ....
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Fair enough, Don, but I would still say a little communication could go a long way. If you aren't going to let me listen to the whole track, maybe let me know up front and I won't pick a track that takes a while to get to the point. Or I'll tell you to fast forward to the part I really want to hear. Or if it depends on whether I'm the only one in the room, let me know that up-front so I know if other people walk in you might switch it. To me, it's all about all parties having a common set of expectations about the experience up-front - which requires a minimal level of good respectful communication skills on the part of all parties.
Some of the rooms actually did quite a lot of the above, and I appreciated it. Others just abruptly changed it on me.
As i said rude is rude and not acceptable, this is more offensive than not playing requested tracks ....
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I make a single track with about 1 minute clips. You can download Audacity and learn how to do this in about 5 minutes.
I am asked which artist/track is on my playlist almost every time I play it and often write down the info for someone.
If you stick to 1 min clips you get a good enough picture of how it sounds and you also avoid annoying the exhibitor and other folks in the room, and you can include a bunch of different clips on your track, which helps you get a better idea of the system's capabilities too.
genjamon, I'll take my disc and walk out if if the exhibitor decides to stop it halfway through. That is rude.
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Was an exhibitor for many years, never had an empty room, never took request unless private , never had a complaint about music nor selection, good music and sound is always appreciated... We always made special time for those wanting to hear their selection, not going to take 30 request from those narcissistic enuff to be offended that someone didnt and i'm not talking being rudely turned down , being rude is a no no at any event .
By not taking request , no one is offended and you wont offend as many people as if you played some nutter music job and have everyone scatter :lol: then later read how horrible the sound in the room was because they happened to walk in at that time......
Yep such is the animal ...
Look at it this way.... In many cases, these shows - as opposed to a "REAL" trade show (think CES) - is more for the end user than the dealer network. Given the scarcity of brick and mortar stores anymore, these shows have become substitutes, and as such, customers want to be treated as they would at a dealership. So, logically, playing their choice of music is understandable. After all, as a customer, how would you like to have driven 150 miles to a dealer and then be told that you can't hear your music.
Yes, I understand that you may have set some small amount of time aside for personal selections, but you'd better hope that that time is open on my schedule. I've got other products to look at, and you may have just lost a sale.
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Yes , i can see that, comprehension , No ! Not to worry I wont hold it against you .....
Listen, you've said your piece and most people disagree with it. We all understand the complexity of what vendors must try to balance at these shows. Yet somehow a lot of manufacturers (all of the AC manufacturers in fact) have always been incredibly accommodating. And on the enthusiasts end- I will gladly wait until a particular track is done to listen, hell I sat through 4-6 tracks to hear my stuff.
When others clearly can make it work (and make it work well) I find very little logic in stating otherwise. But to each their own. Also lets watch the condescension- that goes for everyone.
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genjamon,
I get it. I would also be offended if my song was suddenly aborted. But please don't expect exhibitors to give everyone the third-degree and ask 20 questions before they play a requested track. That would be rude as well. The onus is on the attendee to choose wisely.
That said, if I was the vendor and your track was not offensive to others in the room (e.g. AC/DC) I would have let it play. I think that was the proper thing to do. If I felt the need to move on because it was a long orchestral piece and I did not know how much you planned to listen to I would have asked.
I am not sure if it was the vendor' choice or a request but at the CA Audio Show one room had the Hugh Masekela Stimela (The Coal Train) track playing. :duh: It is 10 minutes of non-music. I would have aborted it without hesitation. I never did get to hear the speakers I wanted because of that track and during my other two trips to the room they were playing dull classical music.
Fair enough, Don, but I would still say a little communication could go a long way. If you aren't going to let me listen to the whole track, maybe let me know up front and I won't pick a track that takes a while to get to the point. Or I'll tell you to fast forward to the part I really want to hear. Or if it depends on whether I'm the only one in the room, let me know that up-front so I know if other people walk in you might switch it. To me, it's all about all parties having a common set of expectations about the experience up-front - which requires a minimal level of good respectful communication skills on the part of all parties.
Some of the rooms actually did quite a lot of the above, and I appreciated it. Others just abruptly changed it on me.
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It is a fine line we all have to walk.
Like somebody much wiser than I am...Can you keep everybody happy? :)
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Opinions vary widely as to how and why we lost our local B&M stores but they are gone regardless ---- and along with them went the personal demonstration. Attendees at these shows need to understand that the purpose is to give exposure to the vendors and the showgoers mutually. Vendors are not in a situation where they can afford anyone much personal attention. If they do that with anyone, it is at the expense of everyone else. If you are not going to be happy about sharing, you should spend your money traveling to a vendor willing to provide you with a private showing rather than using it to disappoint yourself.
I am too lazy to attend hi fi shows and no longer choose to endure the indignities endemic to flying. I do live within driving distance of RMAF but have never felt motivated to mingle. I hate B.O.
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When others clearly can make it work (and make it work well) I find very little logic in stating otherwise. But to each their own. Also lets watch the condescension- that goes for everyone.
I hate when people go +1 but I have to do it here. Very well said. +1
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Look at it this way.... In many cases, these shows - as opposed to a "REAL" trade show (think CES) - is more for the end user than the dealer network. Given the scarcity of brick and mortar stores anymore, these shows have become substitutes, and as such, customers want to be treated as they would at a dealership. So, logically, playing their choice of music is understandable. After all, as a customer, how would you like to have driven 150 miles to a dealer and then be told that you can't hear your music.
Yes, I understand that you may have set some small amount of time aside for personal selections, but you'd better hope that that time is open on my schedule. I've got other products to look at, and you may have just lost a sale.
I'm sure this is usually determine via discussion, there is no hard fast rules, losing a sale would not hinge on this , well not between reasonable parties...
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genjamon,
I get it. I would also be offended if my song was suddenly aborted. But please don't expect exhibitors to give everyone the third-degree and ask 20 questions before they play a requested track. That would be rude as well. The onus is on the attendee to choose wisely.
That said, if I was the vendor and your track was not offensive to others in the room (e.g. AC/DC) I would have let it play. I think that was the proper thing to do. If I felt the need to move on because it was a long orchestral piece and I did not know how much you planned to listen to I would have asked.
I am not sure if it was the vendor' choice or a request but at the CA Audio Show one room had the Hugh Masekela Stimela (The Coal Train) track playing. :duh: It is 10 minutes of non-music. I would have aborted it without hesitation. I never did get to hear the speakers I wanted because of that track and during my other two trips to the room they were playing dull classical music.
Unfortunately Don, someone is always offended.... :)
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Listen, you've said your piece and most people disagree with it. We all understand the complexity of what vendors must try to balance at these shows. Yet somehow a lot of manufacturers (all of the AC manufacturers in fact) have always been incredibly accommodating. And on the enthusiasts end- I will gladly wait until a particular track is done to listen, hell I sat through 4-6 tracks to hear my stuff.
Manufacturers are there to sell gear, of all who disagree with making the appropriate time or offended that they would be given special time to hear their own selection in a private listening session, how many bought equipment at RMAF...?
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Manufacturers are there to sell gear, of all who disagree with making the appropriate time or offended that they would be given special time to hear their own selection in a private listening session, how many bought equipment at RMAF...?
So, if I gather correctly, only people that are serious buyers would be allowed to listen to their own music, and only by special time/reservation?
Also, you said you worked for a vendor for many years - which one? I'm curious to see if they still hold to this policy?
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No i did not say that , I said those who wanted to hear their own selection would be best served in private time. this is the best way to hear your selection without interruptions no matter how long the intro..
Question:
How many, who got their selection played and was happy about this, bought equipment at RMAF ...?
The private time allow both seller and customer to better achieve their goals, also you had stated the main stream guys are doing what i suggested, are they having any success or are the others killing them in sales ..
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Fair answer. But you didn't answer my main question - which vendor did you work for?
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Fair question, long long ago time , interested in hearing about sales at RMAF ......
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How many, who got their selection played and was happy about this, bought equipment at RMAF ...?
Uhhh I have. :o
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Fair question, long long ago time , interested in hearing about sales at RMAF ......
Uhm, those are words, not an answer.
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Uhhh I have. :o
Dammit Pez, stop being sarcastic in exactly the same manner as me!
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Question:
How many, who got their selection played and was happy about this, bought equipment at RMAF ...?
My entire system, except for my TT and cartridge, was purchased from vendors at RMAF; vendors who played my selections on the CDs or vinyl I brought for the sole purpose of evaluating their products using music with which I am familiar. They played these tracks during normal show hours, not in a private audition. Two exhibitors also arranged for me to audition their equipment in my home after the show before purchasing. A win-win.
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Opinions vary widely as to how and why we lost our local B&M stores but they are gone regardless ---- and along with them went the personal demonstration. Attendees at these shows need to understand that the purpose is to give exposure to the vendors and the showgoers mutually. Vendors are not in a situation where they can afford anyone much personal attention. If they do that with anyone, it is at the expense of everyone else. If you are not going to be happy about sharing, you should spend your money traveling to a vendor willing to provide you with a private showing rather than using it to disappoint yourself.
had to pipe up again... yes most of the AC manufacturers are fine with someone coming to them for a personal audition and that is a great way to get extended listening and much cheaper than a bad purchase. The show is a great way to get an INTRODUCTION to a product, not to necessarily make your final decision.
Also, I for one welcome music requests, many of the songs on my playlist have come that way. I even welcome advance requests and playlist suggestions.... anyone want to start that thread?
This discussion really shouldn't be a big deal and usually isn't, most exhibitors and attendees are respectful of each other and for many of us the personal interactions are the big payoff for doing the show.
Lastly, as to some of the chestnuts played at a show, there is a value in hearing the same tunes in different rooms.... but I will gladly drop Hotel California from the list and If Dan would let me I would can Niel Young as well, I think he plays "Old man" just to razz me. :P
I do have one issue and that is when people touch the gear and reach around back into the cables etc., one inadvertent flip of a switch or stepping on a cable can really cause a lot of stress for us.
thanks,
lou
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I do have one issue and that is when people touch the gear and reach around back into the cables etc., one inadvertent flip of a switch or stepping on a cable can really cause a lot of stress for us.
thanks,
lou
Why is anyone touching anything? I mean, what are they trying to do? Rearrange the electrons for better sound?
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Why is anyone touching anything? I mean, what are they trying to do? Rearrange the electrons for better sound?
Perhaps they are trying to apply an essential tweak without which proper evaluation is impossible.
Maybe there is some mental illness among the audiophile community. That might explain the hygiene problems, the attitudes and the tweaking. Do you suppose we are cult members? There are certainly some behaviors that might earn us that designation.
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I hope there are a few of you out there reading this.
Any exhibitor serious about doing it better the next time should make a point of visiting forums such as AC after a show and reading through the comments.
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Why is anyone touching anything? I mean, what are they trying to do? Rearrange the electrons for better sound?
At least one vendor in the CanJam had a touch-and-munge type who decided to swap power supplies between amps when nobody was looking. The result was two dead products, a very serious bug report filed with the manufacturer, and two empty seats that used to face demo systems. More common is the kind of person who changes settings and walks away. In a big room like Lou's, the vendor will notice it right away as people run screaming from the room. At a place like CanJam, a foobared product might annoy customers for an hour without getting noticed.
Heck, I've seen guys at these shows reach around and yank out the speaker cables -- while the music is playing! -- just because they want to see the termination on the cables. You'd think that manners and common sense would at least make them ask first, but, no, they just rip something out and leave it lying on the floor. Then there are the guys who will twist-and-torque a tonearm just because they want to feel when the bearing snaps.
Why are people doing it? I don't have an answer that doesn't involve profanity about bestiality.
Fortunately for everyone, this kind of behavior seems to be relatively uncommon. Most of the folks at these shows are well mannered people who don't mind sharing the experience. There seem to be very few of the inconsiderate nutcases, thankfully, or the vendors would probably make us all pay a deposit before they let us into their rooms.
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Pez great opening post!
Some of my thoughts, I made a trip from Canada with intentions to purchase, some smaller and some larger.
1. I found allot of the rooms were very uncomfortable, either just too warm or hot along with some that had a bad odor so this had me turn around quickly exiting.
Venders: pretty simple fix, ensure you keep the temp on the cool side along with deodorizers.
2. Too many venders standing and talking right up front, in front of their gear or in the room loud enough that it distracted me.
Venders: conduct this elsewhere, don't you want me to see and hear what you have
3. Playing just weird music - playing too loud
Venders: be organized with a variety of music prior and stop playing so loud and ripping my ears off, I quickly exist or don't even enter if such is going on. If someone is really wanting to rock it out then make arrangements after the show.
4. Set-ups in general I felt were really not that good, I heard endless excuses
Vender: I would think you are there to sell, ensure you have your system together prior and ensure it's well broken-in.
Room issues, either bring or make arrangements - ensure you spend the time to set-up prior to the opening day and not be doing this while the show is open. Want to make major changes, do this after the show day ends.
5. Personally if I was doing the show I would have a greeter outside at the door to ensure people came in, a few venders did this - thumbs up for them.
On my short list was looking too purchase was a Kodo The Beat turntable, in the room at the time no music on, then the owner is up front in the middle of the system talking to a guy about a possible plinth. Time is a ticking, 5 minutes goes by and still no music, a guy pipes up "put on some music" Steve gives a sarcastic look. Plays one song and then then Frank S starts babbling with another guy right in front of the right speaker. I did not like the attitude in general and these guys were acting like their shit didn't stink - well they both loss my business and their product is written off.
I went into a room for one of these tweek demoes just for the hell of it, the system was out of phase but these guys are rambling on what they are doing and the improvement - ya trying to get it into phase I was thinking to my self :lol:
Upon leaving, guy asks me what did you think, I responded your system is out of phase - he quickly replies can't be. I leave and go next door to the VAC & Solution set-up. Upon leaving that room the guy is right outside the door - my thought is "wholly crap buddy I feel like you are stocking me now" Says come back in and have a listen, I politely replied no thanks - he then asks me what does my system consist of - I said what does that have to do with anything specially with your system being out of phase and just politely said I'm not interested and parted my way.
I was entering into one room where the venders were having a pissy fit with each other, that was awkward. :roll:
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I don't have an answer that doesn't involve profanity about bestiality.
Well now I want to hear your answer :lol:
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Well now I want to hear your answer :lol:
heh - me too! :green:
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I actually based how I approached CAF this summer on an idea I got from Pez and Tyson- picking out very short tracks or very short excerpts from longer tracks. That way nobody gets bored listening to something that only I might find interesting anyway. I did have a few full length tracks that I got played on day one when the show was less "populated" but if someone came in, I'd offer to let the vendor "off the hook". (Going back thru the thread, I notice Don_S did much the same- tip o' the hat, Don.) Actually, I've discovered new music from letting others play their picks- at CAF I discovered "Beyond the Missouri Sky" by Charlie Haden and Pat Metheny- a vendor brought it. So if I "insisted" on "my music", I might have missed out.
So it has been very enlightening to see the discourse here and very positive to have both showgoers and vendors participating.
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Why are people doing it? I don't have an answer that doesn't involve profanity about bestiality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ovXnZcb_A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ovXnZcb_A)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ovXnZcb_A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ovXnZcb_A)
Still one of my favorite movies.
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Here are some thoughts for guys exhibiting in the CANJAM area;
I feel this is the fastest growing area within audio, I came to this section with my AK240 with intentions to hear different cables specifically along with cans and IE's - sure were allot of nice IE's and would have liked to have compared but ..
Some of us want to keep it simple and only use one device for portability reason but looking for options to improve.
1. Being able to compare IE's, sorry I'm not putting ones my ear that so many others have.
Should have someone cleaning the pads which are almost all removable and actual ear pce with a disinfectant, hygienically speaking. I can almost guarantee if I liked I would have purchased.
2. connection availability
I was disappointed that hardly any venders were prepared and had adapters, pretty simple to have from 1/4" to say 3.5 connection and 2.5 connection. I was wanting to hear my dap vs 3.5 - 2.5 connection and compare with different ear pces.
I was able to purchase one pair of Silver Dragon cables with a 2.5 connection from Moon Audio for my Shure SE846's but was looking for my Sennheiser HD800's but had to place order for the Black Dragon V2's - that was disappointing and didn't make any sense to me not to have at the show.
Using the 2.5 bal section of the AK240 provides more head room, hence more can possibilities.
I noticed most source units being provided had limited music selection on them along with how they were ripped, should be loaded with a variety for users if this is what they are going to use.
I did end up purchasing a pair of beyerdynamic's T5p's and sound marvelous with my AK240.
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I'm not a vendor, but I coordinated the JRiver Media Center/JTR Speakers room. My day job is working as the office manager and network administrator for a small construction company. I attended RMAF once in 2009 and have never been to another audio show. Here are some thoughts from the show:
- I've always heard how hard it is to get good sound in the room. I guess others have a different methodology or priorities than me. I'm a big fan of room treatments and brought a trailer full of GIK Acoustics stuff (18 panels, traps, diffusors). Room measurements, tape measure, and laser were used for positioning of treatments, speakers, and chairs. We took 21 measurements, added some 64-bit parametric EQ filters, took another 21 measurements, added/changed/deleted a few filters, listened to a variety of music to confirm final settings and positioning. Once setup on Thursday, no changes were made for the duration of the show.
- The nice thing about hotel rooms is the lossy nature of their construction. The windows/walls/floors/ceilings are all lossy and can really help reduce bass resonances and improve decay times. Measurements in our room showed no ringing below 30 Hz. The speakers were flat to 15 Hz before EQ. We experimented with a few bass curves and decided upon a 6 db rise from 100 Hz to 30 Hz with it tapering off to flat below that. Rebecca Pidgeon's Spanish Harlem should have the upright bass notes sound similar throughout the seating area at various listening volumes. The bass notes have the following progression: 49 62 73 65 82 98 73 93 110Hz.
- I brought all my own gear except speakers and the 50" plasma monitor and didn't mind anyone touching it. I guess it helps that I have 5 kids from 10 months to 14 years. :D
- Tommy O'Brien of Digital Amp Company had sent me some of his new Maraschino amps. I would only guarantee that they would be visible at the show since I hadn't tried them with the speakers. I had used my Cherry Plus Monoblocks with the 215RT speakers back in June and they worked and sounded great. I like lots of power, but using the Maraschino's is only 3 dB less headroom since they are 400 watts per channel. I ended up deciding to use them for RMAF and had my personal pair of amps sitting to the side of the room.
- Not a single person asked about the speakers cables (Realty Cables) or interconnects (Mogami Gold). There were a variety of questions about the other gear in the room.
- We tried to field any JRiver questions out in the hall and leave the room for listening. Sorry if a JRiver discussion was done in the room.
- It seemed like the Nola room up the hall played Hotel California and The Pink Panther on repeat for the show.
- Someone didn't come in the room because we had "video".
- Besides Tyson and Pez, only three others brought CD's and 2 brought USB flash drives. We played whatever they wanted for as long as they wanted.
- We had to "invite" people to sit in the sweet spot chairs. Most felt more comfortable sitting in the outer chairs.
- Someone thought the room treatments were surround speakers. :icon_lol:
- We let people listen several ways:
1. We had a select playlist of high quality CD, DSD, Blu-ray concerts and high resolution files and we picked the songs.
2. We took requests from the playlist based on artist, type (male vocal, orchestral, electronic), etc.
3. We let people browse either the playlist or other songs on an Android phone, iPad, or Mac laptop.
4. We let people bring their own music.
Most people chose Option 1. "We like what you are playing." - A number of other exhibitors stopped by to say "Hi." I was able to visit some rooms for about 30 minutes on Saturday and 30 minutes on Sunday.
- I brought 6 lbs of chocolate meltaways from Bakers Candies (https://www.bakerscandies.com/) in Nebraska. 5 lbs were consumed during the show.
- We were probably the only room used for movie viewing. We watched the Act of Valor Blu-ray on Friday night after eating at Fogo de Chão. I hope the LFE didn't bother anyone.
- I can't listen to my system until I set it all back up again. :cry: I didn't get home until 11 pm last night.
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I'm really :( I missed the Chocolate.
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Corollary to the point about letting people listen to their own music:
If you let someone listen to their own track, don't just switch to something else randomly in the middle of the track! This happened to me quite often at RMAF this year. There were one or two tracks that I wanted to hear in the rooms I was most interested in, and each of these tracks started slow and built over time. They were often just about to get to the point that would really test the system when the vendor would just switch back to their own music.
I'm not saying vendors can never switch back - if a bunch of new people come into the room or something, I don't know. But they should at least have the respect to ask the attendee that requested and is listening carefully to this track they care about if it's alright to switch back due to this or that. It's no use to allow people to request music on your system if you're not willing to go all the way and let them hear their stuff. Realize there will be some awful (to you, and probably other show-goers) music that is requested. And it may sound like shit on your system. But as Pez articulated quite well, that's should be fine, and is sometimes intentional on the part of the show-goer to see how the system sounds with shittily-recorded music.
I, for one, would be fine with you telling others in the room that this was a request of an attendee, and that you'll be switching to something else shortly. Hell, bring a sign that says "attendee-requested song" or something like that, so that when someone new walks into the room they know what's going on in there, and that you'll be cueing something else up shortly if they don't like what they hear.
I have several jazz and classical favorite tracks that do the same thing. What I did was edit out the "intros" or sections I wasn't interested in, in Audacity, exported as WAV and burned just those snippets to a CDR.
One of my favorite Coltrane tunes has a long bass solo by Jimmy Garrison, it was a bit awkward making people sit through that before the rest of the band comes in :green:
edit: I see others have made a similar suggestion
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Pez.........will you stop by room 8002 so I can meet you this time lol
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I agree with most of the comments here but I think it is unrealistic to think that each room should have the ability to play any music in any format that people show up with. I would expect every room to have the ability to play CDs. The popularity of vinyl with the audio show crowd would suggest to vendors that they have a turntable setup too. And it doesn't have to be a $100k TT. Beyond that, people are expecting too much from these people.
If they don't let you play your own music then they should expect people to be disinterested in their products.
I'm a little nervous putting thumb drives in my music server after having it wiped out by a virus after a show.