VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?

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tkp

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #80 on: 12 Jul 2004, 12:21 am »
IMHO the L-Pad, while colors the sound a bit for the mid pannel and high, offers people like myself a way to taylor the sound to my taste and to counter-act the room they are in.  Obviously, acoustic treatment is the way to go but my family hapiness comes before audio.  Personally, I don't think even 24 steps is good enough.  48 steps might be okay but we are adding a lot of money here.

azryan

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #81 on: 12 Jul 2004, 01:07 am »
Thanks John.

Marbles (and I think tkp might gain from this as well?),

Quote from: Marbles

-having a flat FR with a new XO and having the ability to taylor the speaker with a variable L-pad is what I'm going for.


Ah good. I think I get what you want.

Quote from: Marbles

As far as more than 5 resister selections are concerned, the problem is one of increments, obviously the more, the better.


Is it as simple as more=better?

Lets say you take the two extremes of the 24 steps you first mentioned and turned that into 5 steps.

5 is MUCH coarser that 24 at face value, BUT how does each step actually measure and sound? Maybe each step equals 1.4db or something like that.

I really don’t believe people are hearing changes in 40th of a db steps or whatever each click of an L-pad equals so you’d just be getting steps that make a fairly subtle but real diff. with a few switch settings.

Or that’s my theory that should pan out in measurements/testing.

Quote from: Marbles

-It sounded a bit bright at first and we could turn the tweeter pot down just a tad and get it to sound better within seconds.


Good example and relates to what I mentioned about choosing the electronics that match a flat output 'to your taste'.

This cable seems to have caused the response to tip up on the top end.

1). After breaking the cable in (if it wasn’t?) maybe you’d just want to turn the pot back to how you had it if it mellowed out?

2). If the speaker weren’t adjustable AND the cable was broken in I think you’d know that you simply don’t happen to like this cable in your system because it tipped up the top end in a way you didn’t like.

3). Turning up the super tweeter (I only ‘assume’ that’s what you mean you did?) a bit, while it seemed to counter the cable’s brightness couldn’t technically have countered what the cable did.

At best it kinda/sorta did because both tweaks were in about the same general freq. area.

This isn’t me saying ‘so you shouldn’t have done that’, but merely trying to show how it’s not quite the fix that some I think have the impression it is.

Quote from: Marbles

With only two resister choices up, and two down, it really takes luck to get it right quickly and without an operation on the L-pad to change resisters, defeating the whole purpose of it.
   

That sounds like you’ve made up you mind already?

Again... what if you could be shown that it could be enough steps to distort the output from flat to suit your needs and measures very subtle meaning any setting would still look plenty flat and flatter than stock?

Quote from: tkp
IMHO the L-Pad, while colors the sound a bit for the mid pannel and high, offers people like myself a way to taylor the sound to my taste and to counter-act the room they are in. Obviously, acoustic treatment is the way to go but my family hapiness comes before audio.


I can totally understand people not in many cases being able to treat a room like they'd really like to.

This alone kinda defeats buying really top notch high end audio gear though.

And as I wrote... you just can't counter a room's problems by adjusting the broad range of the mid panel.

If you can explain in your own example/room/system the room problem/freq. peak/dips you have and how specifically the mid and super tweeter pots counter these problems I'd like to hear it.

I've never heard anyone who's been able to explain how they do this though have seen many claim just what you've wrote. No offence. I'd just like you to explain if you can.

Rick Craig

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #82 on: 12 Jul 2004, 01:12 am »
Quote from: tkp
IMHO the L-Pad, while colors the sound a bit for the mid pannel and high, offers people like myself a way to taylor the sound to my taste and to counter-act the room they are in.  Obviously, acoustic treatment is the way to go but my family hapiness comes before audio.  Personally, I don't think even 24 steps is good enough.  48 steps might be okay but we are adding a lot of money here.


I worked for an audio/video repair company doing speaker repairs. L-Pads are notorius for not being reliable and IMO should not be used in any speaker. They also can shift the impedance "seen" by the crossover; as a result, shift the crossover point and create non-linear effects.

A much better approach is to use a 3-5 position switch with high quality resistors. You can arrange the resistors so that the impedance (and crossover point) remain constant regardless of which setting is used.

Marbles

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #83 on: 12 Jul 2004, 01:26 am »
Rick, thanks for your info (Holy Crap, you and Danny agree  :!:  :!:  :!:   :wink:   :mrgreen:   )

Ryan, until you actually use it, I don't think you will understand.

tkp

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #84 on: 12 Jul 2004, 01:29 am »
I have not done any measurements with my system.  However, just base on the placement of the speakers, I know I have a low frequency gain from one speaker over the other because the back of one speaker is the opening to another room and the back of the other speaker is roughly 12" from the front wall.  On top of that, I have tile floor and there is an entertainment center between the speakers.  

You are correct to say that adjusting the gain of the mid pannel alone is not enough.  The RM40s has putty adjustment for low bass, mid L-Pad for mid to high and high L-Pad for frequency above 10Khz.  I found out that I had to play with all three to make the sound to my taste (not neccessary neutral or flat response) and to get proper balance between the two speakers.

Step attennuators is a good way to remove some coloration caused by the L-Pad for mid and high.   Brian indicated to me that the range is about 6 db.  If I want 0.25 db increment than 24 steps is the minimum.  If I want finer increment than 48 steps would be a good choice.  However, this gets expensive really quick.  I don't see how VMPS can offer stepped attennuator without raising the price of their product by a huge amount especially since the L-PAD is good enough for probably 99% of customers.

I know it is kinda defeating purpose to own hifi gear in a pretty bad room but we all have to make the best of the situation we are in.  What it is broil down to is priority.  Audio is high on my list but not at the top.  Family happiness comes first.

tkp

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #85 on: 12 Jul 2004, 01:33 am »
Quote from: Rick Craig
I worked for an audio/video repair company doing speaker repairs. L-Pads are notorius for not being reliable and IMO should not be used in any speaker. They also can shift the impedance "seen" by the crossover; as a result, shift the crossover point and create non-linear effects.

A much better approach is to use a 3-5 position switch with high quality resistors. You can arrange the resistors so that the impedance (and crossover point) remain constant regardless of which setting is used.


This would be a good solution if I have some one to measure my room response and make adjustment to the crossover to give me a good starting point.  However, this is much easier to say and done because the lack of help and proper equipment.  Even if some one can help me the first time, the next time I move the speakers to a different location, who is going to do all this for me all over again?

Marbles

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #86 on: 12 Jul 2004, 01:39 am »
Quote from: tkp
Step attennuators is a good way to remove some coloration caused by the L-Pad for mid and high. Brian indicated to me that the range is about 6 db. If I want 0.25 db increment than 24 steps is the minimum. If I want finer increment than 48 steps would be a good choice. However, this gets expensive really quick. I don't see how VMPS can offer stepped attennuator without raising the price of their product by a huge amount especially since the L-PAD is good enough for probably 99% of customers.  ...


I could probably live with .25db increments of high quality L-pad, but again it would be about $500 just in parts and would be a beatch to solder 96 resisters per pair.

Danny, could one use your XO and still use the variable L-pad that comes standard and still get the FR curve that you've posted?

EProvenzano

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #87 on: 12 Jul 2004, 01:45 am »
I have no experience with L-pads but I noticed that my XM44 xo has some very nice switches that have 11 total positions.
1 center position and 5 positions to each side...plus one mute position at the very bottom left.

...any ways I've noticed that these switches are very solid and quite nice to use. Marchand has these switches taylored for 1db steps (approx). I'm sure the resistors could be arranged so that the steps are more like 1/2 db or less.

On first inspection I doubt that these switches could cost more than $25 each.

Someone may want to contact Phil and ask him if he'd sell these....or better yet direct you to his source.

Good luck.
EP

EProvenzano

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #88 on: 12 Jul 2004, 01:51 am »
I just remembered that Wayne has some experience with 'hot-rodding' some XM44 crossovers...plus he's a VMPS dealer.

Maybe he could comment on the feasibility of the XM44 switches in place of the Lpads.

Good luck.
EP

tkp

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #89 on: 12 Jul 2004, 01:51 am »
Quote from: EProvenzano
I have no experience with L-pads but I noticed that my XM44 xo has some very nice switches that have 11 total positions.
1 center position and 5 positions to each side...plus one mute position at the very bottom left.

...any ways I've noticed that these switches are very solid and quite nice to use. Marchand has these switches taylored for 1db steps (approx). I'm sure the resistors could be arranged so that the steps are more like 1/2 db or less.

On first inspection I doubt that these switches coul ...


You might be suprised how expensive switches are especially for high current rating.  For example, a 12 position GrayHill switch cost roughly $ 25.00 from places like Michael Persy, and it is rated for small signal (to be used in preamp.)  I don't know how much a high current 12 position switch would cost but it will most likely be quite a bit more expensive than the Grayhill one.

azryan

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #90 on: 12 Jul 2004, 02:26 am »
Quote from: Marbles


Ryan, until you actually use it, I don't think you will understand.


This is your reply?? That's very disappointing to me. I bow out on this issue.

note- I have heard vmps and seen the pots adjusted in more than one case.

Danny Richie

More info
« Reply #91 on: 12 Jul 2004, 03:25 am »
Okay guys I have just uploaded new measurements of the 626R using my new network.

I am guessing by now all of you have found the URL from one forum or another?

Rick you are welcome to stay and participate in this thread if you keep your posts limited to technical information only. No personal gabs!

Marbles, those high end Omit switches I have were about $40. each. Mills resistors are $3.90 each.

Another alternative that will allow greater versatility might be a digital EQ. This will allow for adjustments of each driver in their bandwidths which it does need.

Neither of these will solve the issues of out of phase cancellations that are causing dipped areas to begin with though.

See new info.

Andrikos

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #92 on: 12 Jul 2004, 02:01 pm »
Very impressive work Danny. Very thorough...

JoshK

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #93 on: 12 Jul 2004, 03:48 pm »
Guys,
 
I too had thought about adding a switch w/ resistors in lieu of the Lpad.  Seemed to be the obvious way to improve upon a great sounding speaker.  

One thing I had in mind to do as soon as I get some free time is to move the mid/tweet xover outside of the speaker cabinet so that it is more readily accessible for tweaking.  The woofer network I would leave inside the speaker cabinet as it probably wouldn't need much tweaking.  I'd use one pair of the binding posts for the woofer.   I am already bi-wiring my speakers.

For the mid/tweet, in order to move the network outside the speaker I was thinking I'd add a neutrix speakon connector interface either next to or in place of the toggle switch.  This allows the necessary four wires following the xo.  So I would have a box for the network with hardwired cables coming out with a speakon female terminator and the male in the RM40's.   The network box could have binding posts for the input so that standard speaker cables could be used from the amp.

Since it would be relatively easy now to swap the network out, I was thinking of building one up using the stock xo and another network box as a replication using more premium parts.  The two then could be compared in listening tests.   Also, one could implement different choices in xo design, such as an extention of Danny's tweaks (if that could be done of course) and then compare the results.  

Anyway, I think I may soon do just this.  

Danny,

I have a few questions for you.  You may wish to not answer some of them, I'll leave that to you.  You mention that you intend or did lower the mid/tweet xo point from 10K (sounds like the older version) to something much less.  Can you expand upon where you move the xo to?

I will just point out one issue.  Some have praised BC's design results for using a wideband driver and keeping the xo points far outside the critical 1k-5.5k area (arguable).  I point this out merely to suggest that if you move the xo within this area, that is itself a trade-off.  I imagine you feel (I have no personal opinion here) the trade-off is worth the benefits it brings in doing so.

You also suggested you are using a much higher slope, care to mention what slope?  It is just the thing missing for me, in my mind at least, what that there are trade offs and sonic results for different choices or implementation.  You pointed out what seems to be well known drawbacks to first order xo's, particularly at such a high frequency.  However the phase is maintained at a wider band if I am not mistaken.  If you use a higher order xo, how is the phase then changed?  

I am glad, btw, that you are taking a stab at analyzing the VMPS speakers and reworking the speakers based on your criteria, for better, for worse.  I find it very intriguing, even if I never change a thing. I like to learn.  For some they never want to know how or why their speakers sound the way they do, I am not one of them.

sonicboom

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #94 on: 12 Jul 2004, 04:07 pm »
As far as the crossover slopes are concerned, from looking at the graphs of the individual driver responses, it seems that the cross over point between mid and tweet is set at 3.5K with the low pass for the midrange and the high pass for the tweeter being symmetrical, both having 18db/octave slopes.  The high pass on the mid panel has a first order cut off as does the low pass for the woofer with both being symmetrical as well.  The cross over between these two drivers looks like its set at around 550Hz.

Danny does this sound right? Could you also provide any phase graphs?

Edited for spelling.

JoshK

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #95 on: 12 Jul 2004, 04:09 pm »
Quote from: sonicboom
As far as the crossover slopes are concerned, from looking at the graphs of the individual driver responses, it seems that the cross over point between mid and tweet is set at 3.5K with the low pass for the midrange and the high pass for the tweeter being symmetrical, both having 18db/octave slopes.  The high pass on the mid panel has a first order cut off as does the low pass for the woofer with both being symmetrical as well.  The cross over between these two drivers looks like its set at around 550Hz.

 ...


Oops, you're right, I must've missed that.

amitm

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #96 on: 12 Jul 2004, 04:12 pm »
From the graph detailing individual drivers' output, it looks like ~ 18dB/oct on the high side of mid (mid-tweeter crossover), ~24 dB/oct on the tweeter (both acoustical, of course).

--amit

sonicboom

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #97 on: 12 Jul 2004, 04:35 pm »
amit,

You might have a point there with the 24db/octave on the high pass for the tweeter.

Sedona Sky Sound

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #98 on: 15 Jul 2004, 04:56 pm »
From someone with LOTS of experience adjusting the pots on VMPS speakers, in my situation I am not sure if 24 steps is good enough. Those that have been to my demo room know that I am a precision freak (a good laser level is a mandatory audio accessory in my world). I have a perfectly symetric room (14x19x10) and placement of the speakers in the room is within a fraction of an inch. I want to make sure the center image is exactly centered and even put a target on the wall to make sure it is so. My expereince is that 1 click (at least as I feel it) on the LPAD moves the center image approximately 1-2 inches. I use a pre-amp with a dual mono-design using very high quality 24 step attenuators (.1% matched) with approximately 1 dB steps in the primary range. A 1 click difference between L and R channels moves the image approximately 2-3 feet. As such, a .25dB difference would likely shift the image 6-8 inches. That is too much for my taste. My pre-amp/processor has .5dB incraments and it totally drives me nuts any time I try to listen to music with it.

The ability to adjust the mids/highs independantly (and in relation to each speaker) is what make the VMPS speakers a pain to set up but also makes them sound so good in so many environments. By having the finer adjustments, it is easier to still obtain a rock solid and sharp center image even when your room is irregularly shaped by adjusting for the room gain/suck-out.  

Just another perspective and something to think about. Take it or leave it.

Julian

Danny Richie

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #99 on: 15 Jul 2004, 05:21 pm »
Hey Julian,

Busy this weekend?

I have to go down to Dallas (to Dodd Audio) for audio related business and fun.

Want to bring a pair of speakers with you for comparisons and meet me there?

It'd be fun.