AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: azryan on 11 May 2003, 02:21 am
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Started the project about a month ago, but didn't have the $$ to buy the kit!
I also thought it was super easy to cut all the MDF and said that having gotten halfway through the cabinets...that anyone can do this!
Update...
Got the actual kit now, and have been finishing the cabinets.
I realize now that I was NOT 1/2 way done though! hehe
More like 1/3 of the way, and it gets progessively harder as you actually have to shove all these nice bits of wood together covering yourself in wood glue and eating lots of MDF dust! hehe
I still say if I can do this (which remains to be seen)... almost anyone can.
I've got the cabinets standing up now in my garage and just the last bits to finish before I get to the x-overs and putting on the veneer and dropping in the drivers.
Maybe a week... maybe a little longer, but barring any big probs. I should have Alphas in my HT room any day now!
Hope more people try this kit! It's been a lot of hard work, but fun as hell!
Bitchin' job Danny!
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Forget the veneer, just put it together so we can hear it!
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The Alphas have landed!! Hide your women!!
Finished @ 2:15AM last night, and had been working on it for so long I could hardly think straight. Dumb time to solder a costly speaker kit 'eh!?!
Plus it's been over 100 degrees here recently, and 99% of the work was done in the garage so that's been killing me. The thermometer says it's over 105 right now! Glad I was able to do this now. If not I'd have to havewaited several months till it wasn't SO hot out.
Anyway... I decided to wait till later today to hook them up (had to dismantle my current mains, and it was too late to play music loudly to really test these out!).
Also because.... I was scared to death that I might've wired something wrong and I all the drivers would explode with a massive 'PoP' as my amp burst into flames!!
Danny's wiring info and x-over info are very clear, and it it a fairly simple layout, it's just that by far I had the least faith in myself that I wouldn't scew something up in the wiring, and had to finish these suckers 100% and light 'em up and see what the heck would happen!
Well... they work!!!!! WHOOOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!
No real review to write -as they've only been playing for ~a few hours!
I'll certainly give the x-overs and drivers some time to break in till I really 'judge' this speaker.
But so far w/ almost zero break in time I can say they seem to image as well as my previous mains,-Newform 645's, which image amazingly well IMO being 3.5" wide on a heavily beveled ribbon, and have only heard a few speakers that IMO did as well, and usually most speakers I've heard fall far short (most recently $3.5K Revel F40's playing a 2 chan SACD demo in a fairly decent open room, and $14K KEFs playing DVD-A in 'too small' a room).
Tonally, they seem far more similar than diff. to the Newforms.
W/ the Newforms you have be sitting at the exact right seated height for them to sound correct and very close to seamless.
W/ the Alphas standing, sitting, whatever... they're seamless and don't change their sound more than just slightly on the low end because of (I'm guessing) the floor bounce @ diff. heights.
The Newforms w/ dual woofers in the 30" floor cabinet had a 150-200Hz peak that I couldn't kill no matter when I placed them leading me to think it's a floor effect.
At first the Alphas sounded weak in this area. I had gotten used to the 'bump', but I'm VERY glad it's gone now, and the Alphas aren't weak in this area at all.
The other obvious diff. is the bass loading in the room. The line of woofers from floor to midroom height seems to really do what I had hoped they would... tight, fast, clean bass.
Once these woofers all break in, I'm thinking this aspect should improve greatly beyond this even.
Pics of them coming soon, but they match my sonotube subwoofers w/ a red birch veneer which is similar to maple in lightness and grain, but is more on the redish side where maple is more yellow.
The all black drivers really stand out! There's certainly a 'bow down to me' look to them! hehe
It's a LARGE speaker, but face on it's only 12" wide. Few speakers are much narrower.
It's slightly shorter than my Newforms, but still taller than me so it's perfect for a line source. I'd never buy a line souce that was shorter than me when standing.
When slamming the bass w/ some hard rock (need to break those woofers in!! Thank you Trent Reznor! hehe) the cabinets are very dead.
Not 100% stone dead, but you can feel just the lightest vibration w/ your palm on the cabinet when the bass really hits. 1.5" MDF, and black hole 5, plus 5 cross brace dowels,and a front to back MDF brace.
Great design Danny!! I think I'm really going to love them!!
Right off the bat they seem to have everything I loved about the Newforms (effortless, open, fast planar upper range, natural paper cone tone, laser imaging) and none of the 'quirks' of that speaker!
Speed, detail, and openess of a mini-monitor, but the dynamics, effi., and power handling of a a large multi-way tower!
My system's current weak link is my Outlaw pre/pro. It's great IMO, but I KNOW there's better.
I'm still waiting for the perfect DAC, universal DVD player, or modded player to really raise the level of sound quality, but the Outlaw sounds great through my eARTwo digital amp, and now through the Alphas (zero noise w/ my ear to the speaker drivers).
I'll be back sometime to do more of a real review, but 'day one'... the Alphas are excellent speakers!
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Hope you keep 'em playing over Memorial weekend and get them nice and broken in. Then invite some audio buddies over and give 'em your best shot.
Thanks for the update
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Yea, I bet you are going to have a really fun weekend.
Then have an audiophile party.
Here an interesting coincidence. The guy that owns the marbled Diluceo's, that pics have been posted here on, also lives in your same city.
And post some new pics when you get a chance.
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Congratulations! Can't wait to see the pics of the finished speakers with your veneer. :dance:
Keep us updated on how they sound over the long weekend, and let me know when the party is scheduled. Consider this my RSVP. I want a nice front row seat, I want kettle corn, and I'll bring the cheap American beer. :beer:
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Stacy,
There's a guy here in Atlanta that's using 6 of the Alphas and a custom center channel that Danny designed for him (those were some damn heavy cabinets!). I've yet to hear the setup, but I bet it's awesome! I need to check in with him and see if I can come over for an audition. :)
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Close to 500 hits and no comments on all the pics I posted and all of two people seem to be interesting in my impressions -one I think really being a 'sympathy post' (thanks Stace).
Kind of discouraging. Is there something about the Alphas that puts people off unlike the rest of the GR line that gets so much more talk?
Brian, why don't you tell that guy in Atlanta to post a review of his Alphas. And thanks for your comments on my photos and my impressions of the Alphas... oh wait, you didn't have any.
Sorry, just prodding you. I'm just a bit sore almost no one's been posting. I wasn't even going to post a review, but figured oh well, might as well. Danny deserves the recognition for this stunning design.
So if anyone is the least bit interested... here's some more comments having gotten a bit more used to them, but of course they're still not broken in.
In the past month while working my @$$ off on these cabinets that are each taller and than I am and near twice my weight I kept asking myself "WHY"!?! am I building these when I still 'mostly' love my Newform 645's??
Well, it became apparent 'why' almost right off the bat, and hearing more and more music I know very well as coming from the Newforms, I'm getting a fairly clear sense of the difference in the Alphas.
The overall impression is that the Alphas sound like I had always hoped/dreamed the Newforms would sound. And I think I've been wrongly blaming some of the Newform's glitches on room set up, other components, etc...
It was after modding the Newform's cheap stock x-over to high end parts, and dampening the cabinets to the nth degree yet still not hearing nearly what I dreamed I would that I started looking at what would give me the performance I imagined.
I had considered the VMPS RM-40's, but while I'm sure they're fantastic in their own right, due to it's unique design and drivers, I felt I liked Danny's Alpha design better (plus my wife thinks these look far better and I agree. plus I much prefer Danny's posting manner -though that never was part of which design I chose).
I also has considered an -to be left un-named knob's line array using the same Newform ribbon in my 645's that I've grown to love, and very costly hi-end metal cones, but in addition to the fact that I'd never buy anything from that guy now, it was honestly also solely on design preference that I again chose the Alphas over that design.
IMO, that line is too short, being below ear height when standing, and only 'optimal' when sitting down. My Newform 645's have several 'quirks' and I didn't want to change to 'new quirks'.
Also, while the woofers in that design are considered world class, they're crossed over so low in the design that I think it really negates the benefit of using such very costly drivers -unlike say the Ellis 1801 where a single cone seems to actually be used to it's full potential.
As is the sealed cabinet limiting the bass range to demanding the use of a sub/s. That's just not right IMO. Then there's the far less power handling and much lower effi. that while not 'flaws' certainly weren't benefits or winning features.
With the Alphas you can sit on the floor (hell.. lay on the floor), sit on the couch, or stand up and they sound exactly the same. There seems to be no 'just right' vertical spot you need be in.
I can slouch for the first time in 2 years! hehe
The Newform 645's could do a 2 channel 'surround sound effect' when sitting dead center and playing something w/ strong phase effects like Roger Water's CD 'Amused to Death' which is recorded in Q-Sound. There are lots of other CD's with certain sounds that also have this enveloping effect.
The effect is that specific sounds seem very much like they're coming from the rear surrounds, and can smoothly shift 360 degrees around the room if the sound's phase is shifted back to zero and panned side to side.
It's something I've yet to hear from any other system, and was scared to lose this even is a diff. speaker was better in every other way.
I've not heard anyone's personal system that's made up of great parts (just don't know anyone in town who's a typical ACforum type guy), but in several diff. Hi-Fi shops I've heard B&W 801's, Revel Salons, Linn's top speakers, Dynaudio's newest $16K tower, Martin Logan's line from the Prodigy's on down, Magnepan quasi-ribbon 1.6's, top KEF's, etc... all hooked up to top players and amps, usually in at least decent rooms, and I felt that my system (once I got my eARTWo amp) equaled or bettered all of these systems -usually feeling what I heard wasn't even close -incl. several DVD-A and SACD demos.
Honestly, even if I could afford any of the those top store speakers (which I can't) there's not one I would choose that I felt really bettered the Newforms in many ways. Some were better in a few aspects, but overall to my taste and my wife's... nothing that said 'this is better' to us.
Anyway, back to point... the Alphas are honestly about twice as good as the Newforms at this surround effect!
It's totally enveloping w/ the right recording. My friend was over today and while he doesn't really like that Roger Waters CD, he wanted to hear that Q-Sound effect, and he also commented that it was much more clearly and distinctly surround.
In fact the last track 'You and I' from Jeff Buckley's 'Sketches from my Sweetheart the Drunk" which is my #1 reference CD actually has some very haunting, quiet background sounds here and there that never till now sounded clearly like surround effects.
Not to mention the astounding dynamics and total lack of harshness that I've never heard before.
If that song doesn't move you, then you need to check your pulse because you're probably dead.
I suspect the improvement is because mostly the Newform's ribbon was doing this surround effect previously, and w/ the Alphas the whole woofer line and Neo 8 line are doing it. Not sure though.??
Probably the Alphas are even more phase accuarate that the Newforms, but I've never heard this effect on other speakers that I know are also very phase accurate (say... $20K Revel Salons). Room set up also coming into play?
The Alphas are more delicate, open, and detailed than any other speaker I've ever heard.
They don't sound like 'Monster' speakers that are 'in your face' in ANY way.
Even at terribly high volume there's a smoothness there that just doesn't exist in the other speakers I've heard incl. the Newforms which would get a little 'brittle' sounding if I cranked them like I've done now to the Alphas.
The sound comes from the plane of the speaker's face and goes back deeper than I've ever heard. Not 'forward' at all, which I personally consider a good thing.
Just for the hell of it I played them at a far lower in volume than I ever, ever, ever listen to anything, and it was still fantastic. The Newforms don't have anywhere near as much 'life' at such low levels, though the issue never really comes up for me. I'm not a 'soft levels' type of guy. hehe
I love the Newform's 45" (~4') ribbon (and really... still do) and was nervous that the ~5' long Neo 8 line would fall short in some way that I liked and was used to in the Newforms, but there's not one thing worse about the Neo 8.
And this is a fairly unbroken in speaker compared to a 3 year old pair. Though I'm guessing the Neo 8's don't take much time to break in. Just a guess. Planars in general don't seem to.
The Newform ribbon is a little more 'airy', and if anything that's the only note in it's favor, but I think this was a slight distortion effect? A 'nice flaw' if you will, but they also have a slight 'bite' on the very high end when push loudly. A really very subtle harshness I'd call it.
(I had been blaming the Outlaw pre/pro for what now seems to be a slight Newform harshness)
The Neo 8's have none of this harshness at all, and are slightly more clear and detailed, and just as great at imaging laser sharp, so the lack of harshness seems not to be due to the Neo 8's being ANY 'duller' than the Newform ribbon, or due to the slight roll off in the extreme high end of the Neo line.
I don't notice any of that small roll off on the extreme high end. I was hoping this wouldn't be a problem and it sure seems not to be.
I certainly don't care about a speaker that can play out to 40kHz (I don't own any dogs that might benefit from this), but I didn't like that the Alphas are a touch rolled off at 20kHz.
This just doesn't seem to be audible to me though. All the music I know very well sounds like nothing's missing.
Playing track 4 of Danny Elfman's brilliant 'Planet of the Apes' soundtrack (too bad the film sucked) there are a lot of very high pitched tinkling metallic chime like things (not sure what they are?).
Compared to the Newforms the Alphas sound a hair duller, but I think the Alphas are probably (though in this case a bit 'sadly') more accurate.
I tried it again w/ +2db and +4db treble on the pre/pro and that made the Alphas sound damn close to the brightness of the Newforms that I've been used to, but still w/o any of the slight harshness, and still w/ slightly more detail.
That bump in the treble is centered @ 10kHz though, and that's below where the Alpha's have that small roll off. This is why I'm guessing the Alphas are still playing more accuratly w/ the treble untweaked at 'zero'.
The midrange of the Newforms has a quirk in the design IMO. It's only 'damn near seamless' IMO, and even then that's only when sitting at the exact right height, which is in the lower third of the bottom 15" ribbon section of the 3 section 45" ribbon. Was that too confusing??
Anyway... the best spot on the Newform ribbon itself is the center of the middle 15" ribbon section which isn't close to seated height or the woofers, so there's always been a compromise in blending those dual woofers to the ribbons mounted on top.
I still think the Newform ribbon is terribly good, and probably something like playing w/ caps could tap down that slight 'bite' to it, or maybe a fairly colored/warm tube amp or pre might do the trick too, but since that 4' ribbon costs about the same as the 5' Neo 8 line, and both play about the same freq. range, and the Neo's sound better in every way ('cept maybe a little less 'airy'), and are more effi., and can handle far far more power.... it's really a no-brainer which is the better line IMO.
The Alphas, having a line of woofers next to a planar line are100% seamless.
Totally seamless even though the x-over's right in a section many people call a "don't ever do this" (as are the Newforms).
I think this probably also has to do w/ the very smooth and simple x-over of the Alphas. The two sets of very diff. types of drivers totally act as one w/ a very natural, smooth, clean, detailed sound.
I didn't have real problem w/ the Newforms in this area and have defended them in this regard online several times, but clearly the Alphas take this area to a 'tremendously refined level', where-as in direct comparison the Newforms 'do a pretty nice job'. Very good, but 'no'... not the same.
Listening to the fantastic 'Red Violin' soundtrack, you can test this x-over range as a violin's fundamental range in cut right in half at the Alpha's and Newform's ~1275 and 1000Hz x-overs. The strings pass up and down over the x-over and there's no shift or change and the detail is astounding.
I'm really trying not to sound like I'm raving, since most don't take such people very seriously (incl. me), but by every aspect a speaker's sound is typically defined, this is the best I've personally ever heard, so if they break in and sound even better I'd be fine w/ that, but I guess I don't really care.
The lower mids are where the Alphas really stomp on the Newform 645's.
The Newforms had a slight bass peak in the ~150-200Hz area that always colored dialouge -somtimes pretty noticable w/ certain movies, though thankfully usually hardly noticable w/ vocals in music.
A chesty resonance on the rare certain tone when people (male and female) were speaking that reminded you 'this is a speaker, not real life'.
It seemed to be a matter of the low floor mounted cabinet and floor bounce 'cuz no matter where I placed them from the side and back walls that bump hardly changed (the best I could do placed them WAY too far apart so that was no solution).
The Alphas have no resonance in this range (or any other) so the illusion that real people are speaking to eachother in front of you is never broken. It's a subtle, but beautiful thing.
Also the woofer cabinet on the Newforms are so low that lower range sounds recorded strongly in one channel tended to pull down imaging-wise. Hard to explain if you haven't heard this speaker, but it's another 'Newform quirk'.
Since the Alphas have a true line source of slightly smaller cone woofers nothing ever 'pulls down' like that.
The Alpha's low bass is so fast, clean, and tight. Really just stunning. The line of woofers does exactly what I had hoped and seems to trip up all bass modes in my room.
I'm in a dedicated HT room 17.5' x 23' x 8'-10' vaulted ceiling. 60% of the room is an addition w/ walls made of 12" thick polystyrene/concrete beams called perform panel (GREAT stuff!!).
I have corner bass traps, and a large sheet covering fiberglass on a 80" dia. frame to kill a front to back echo. Nothing on the side walls for reflections. I had used large bales of fiberglass on the sides, but oddly enough it seemed to have no (or little effect) so I removed them.
I have the Alphas 5' from the back, and ~4 from the side walls.
Comparing them full range (which is how I've run them pretty much all of the time) to running them @ 40, 60, and 80Hz on up mixed w/ my dual 15" Tempest sonotube subs tuned to 16Hz, I found that @80Hz the subs sound a bit slower/muddier, but w/ recordings w/ low bass, there is a slight 'even deeper' weight that the subs hit that the Alphas don't. Again... subtle, but it's there.
Not sure if the subs are just slower? They shouldn't really be I'm thinking since they're only playing very, very large (i.e.-'slow') sound waves, or if it's more a matter of the phase balance not blending into the Alphas correctly (I have no phase adjustment for the subs -other than doing a speaker wire 180 degree flip, which I didn't get to test yet, but will).
The subs are each about 5' away from the Alphas, but an 80Hz wave is like 14' long so I dunno if phase matter that much in the blending??
@60Hz the diff. is still in favor of the Alphas in speed, but it's pretty subtle. I can't hardly tell the subs are in the mix, till I turn them off and put the Alphas back to Large.
@40Hz there seems to be little diff. in quality between the two, w/ the subs probably winning as they seem to hit an even deeper freq. Probably not too worth turning the sub amp on for only that though.
I'll try to flip the sub phase and see if that helps, but either way, I'll still probably use the Alphas full range for CD's, and use the subs x-ed @ 80Hz w/ movies so I don't miss any LFE info, and w/ killer stuff like Star Wars, etc... It's just safer to have terribly deep, loud bass go to drivers that are tuned to really handle it.
The level of distortion in the Alphas is tremendously low. At average listening levels this isn't terribly noticable over the Newforms (which are far more dynamic than say Martin Logan 'stat panels or Magnepans, and are fairly effi. in their own right).
At louder and louder levels though the dynamics really shine through. It's a very smooth natural sounding speaker even when playing way too LOUD. If you think CD's 96db dynamics aren't good enough I have a few tracks that I think you'd have a hard time arguing that could be more dynamic.
My amp has a great noise filter element to it though too and this I'm sure adds a great deal to that dead quiet noise floor.
Overall the Alpha's tone..hmm... I wouldn't call them warm or bright, but I'd say just on the slight 'warm' side on the very high end if you forced me to say it ("we didn't, so why did you just say it"? hehe). Maybe just my preference though for a hair brighter high end (but only on certain recordings).
Overall I feel the Newforms are pretty neutral too w/ maybe a hint more on the warm side in the lower range than the Alphas, but clearly a bit brighter on the highs. IOW, not as top to bottom 'even' as the Alphas are.
There's no sterile or dry tone from the Neo 8 planars, and the paper cone woofers are wonderfully natural/realistic low freq. fundamental vocal range.
Danny calls (if he doesn't mind me saying) the Alpha's CSS woofers a 6" knock-off of the far costlier 6.5" Scan Speak 8545's -which are exaclty what the Newform's use (and far costlier speakers incl. the $20K WATT/puppies). I, at least pretty much, agree.
The overall tone of the Alphas sound very much like the Newform 645's IMO, but without any high range glare/harshness, and has a perfectly blended x-over and midrange, and stunningly clean, tight, fast, 'damn near' full range bass. Just beautiful from top to bottom.
I'm sure the x-over still needs say a week or so till it's pretty well broken in. The Neo 8's should break in very fast, and I'm guessing the woofers will take a looooong time to fully break in.
Scan Speak says ~250 hours for the 8545!!, and the Alpha's woofers are all working so little that I'm thinking it should only take all the longer?
Then again, the less a woofer is asked to move, the more control it's in and I think that's why they sound so great right off the bat. So does 100% break-in really matter that much in this design?? I dunno.
It's not like I'm playing a single pair of unbroken-in woofers at high volumes and they're trying to move a great deal of start/stop travel and they're just not softened up enough yet.
I'm just asking each of these woofers to move a little bit. It's also funny to be playing these so loud at times, yet I can walk up and put my ear right up to one of the drivers and it's not that loud. Line sources kick @$$! hehe
I'll be keeping these speakers for a long time I'm sure, and the 645's are now going to surround duty. I've been out of 'center speaker' game for years now, and I still find a phantom center to be better than an actual (usually of a compromised horizontal design).
Now if this thread gets past 500 hits and nobody seems to care about my comments or all the pics I've been putting up, damn am I going to be pissed. You're at GR's forum and this is their top speaker kit. Why so little interest??
Have a good Mem. day. I'm spending it enthralled by audio. Thanks Danny. Your design along w/ the eARTwo amp are a BIG part of that!!
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azryan, whew, quite a read! I found your impressions very interesting. BTW, I know we've had some disagreements in the past but I'd like to put it behind me, I hope you will too :oops: I'm sorry about earlier comments....
I've recently moved and finally have a room that will support (I think) speakers this big. It's about the size of yours except it's not dedicated and a big corner is eaten up by a laundry room :evil: Anyway, the Alphas are certainly an option here, I have had dreams of a large dipole array but practically speaking... well. I've played with Neo8s (in dipole) and the (no longer made/sold) 15" Newform ribbon so far, which is why I found your comments interesting since you own the fullsize versions of both.
Anyway, please keep posting, don't be discouraged! It's Memorial Day weekend over there? Would love to see a pic of the completed speaker.
JohnR
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Azryan,
Sorry about that! The pics do look good, but I usually hold my praises until I see finished pics. I'm much more interested in how the final veneered cabinets turn out. Since we built the 3 pair of cabinets for the local guy I know what the inner workings look like. I doubt he'll post here as I don't think he spends a lot of time on the net. I believe he travels quite a bit and only converses with me via phone because he hates emails due to the amount he gets at work. So I doubt he'll be doing any unecessary typing.
Post those final pics soon so we can all drool over them! :)
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Azryan,
Try not to get discouraged by the lack of responses. I was not going to respond, because I really don't have anything meaningful to add to this discussion, but decided to write this because of the lack of other responses.
Looks like you did a great job on those speakers, and I like all the pics you put up on your web page. It would be helpfull to anyone who was thinking about building these.
Sounds like you are really happy with them, and in the end, I think that's all that really matters :wink:
I would love to build these guys, but no way my wife would allow it, and I could see one of my girls knocking them over.
Randy
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Don't get discouraged by little feedback.
Forum participation has been slower this year, even slower this month, and over this Memorial holiday even slower still.
Your post was great. It was informative and the reading was really good. Many will enjoy reading it, even if few respond.
Let's face it you just built something that a lot of people consider a dream speaker. It is not even easy to compare the Alpha LS to other speakers. What can anyone say?
Not everyone can build them for one reason or another. They need a good sized room. Not everyone can build the enclosures as you have. Most budget oriented hobbyist can't afford to spend that much on a kit especially if they have to purchased finished enclosures, and not everyone has a wife understanding enough to allow a pair of speakers that large in their house. So it is not hard to understand why we sell a lot more of our smaller speakers.
Also posting pics are great. Everyone loves seeing new pics of things like this. As soon as you add new finished pics I will modify your original post to say (New Pics) at the end of the subject line. This will get everyone looking again at your work.
Plus, most of the regulars here have already taking a look at the Alpha's and it may not be any new news to them.
If you want more questions and feedback, or would like to entertain local audiophile guest, then post the info about your speakers on other forums. You might be surprised how many others are in your area.
One of our customers that just posted at the Audio Asylum today is in your home town: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/125913.html
Oh, and great work Ryan!
Great writing too.
Putting a link to it in the Critic's Circle would be good too. It was a well written review, and that is what that area is for.
And congratulations on your efforts and the outcome. :mrgreen: A big thumbs up from me!
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I'll second the suggestion that this one should go in the critic's corner. Very well written, Ryan. I've been following his progress in private emails, and couldn't wait to hear what he thought of the finished speakers. Now I'm just completely jealous. Having seen a pic of the finished work, my little monitors just look positively...small. Hey, I'll just tell myself that he's compensating for something! :P
And Brian, I remember you posting about the guy with 6 Alphas some time ago. Too bad he won't be posting anything here. If you ever manage to get invited to his house for an audition, please let me know. We'll tell him I'm your cousin and I'll be down from Kentucky in a heartbeat. I've got family in Dahlonega that I could visit. It would be perfect. Otherwise, looks like I'll have to arrange a trip west at some point. :wave:
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Great! I was hoping my rant might get a couple of posts! hehe
Finally a 'final' pic!
http://home.earthlink.net/~azstrehlow/htroom2.html
More to come, but it's a matter of my buddy sending me the dig. shots through email. I have to wait for him.
JohnR,
No prob about past stuff. I've got a big mouth so I'm used to people getting mad at me! hehe
I'm just not a big fan of di/bipoles myself. I've not heard a great many, but Logans, and Magnepans, plus Mirage, Def. Tech. Don't even like the rear tweeter on Revels.
I think it's totally just preference (no right or wrong to debate) but that's what drew me to Newform and later looking at VMPS and finally choosing the GR Alphas -all w/ planar/ribbon sections but used in a monopole config.
Maybe you could PM me some thoughts about those Neo 8's and that 15" NR?
Brian,
I'm sure your cabinets are of total professional quality, where-as I'd call my build quality 'good', not great. I had a problem spot w/ the veneer, but you're damn well never seeing a pic of it! hehe
No one who's come over's ever noticed it, so that's cool. If my house ever burns down, you're making my new Alpha cabinets, not me! hehe
Randy,
Thanks for posting man.
Yeah, kids and these would be scary (I think our HT is a substitue for not passing on our DNA. hehe)
I'd be more worried about the kids damaging a driver though more than knocking these over, and I'd hate to cover these w/ a grill, but I'm sure you could 'grill them' w/ magnets like Danny's other speakers. Maybe a few more magnets though?
IMO, the very large base according to the plans is somewhat overkill. Setting the speaker placement I had these w/o bases on my carpet and you'd really have to TRY to push them over to get them to move, and I tried to tip them just to be sure I could safely walk away from them.
I'm sure Danny just wanted to make a base that FOR SURE would keep these from tipping over which is very wise, but I'd tell people they could go smaller if they wanted. Not too small of course.
"-I would love to build these guys, but no way my wife would allow it,-"
Place large lamps on top of each of your current speakers. Then after she gets used to it, tell her Alphas would only take up the same amount of space? hehe
Danny,
Thanks for your comments.
Again... my wife loves these speakers in both looks and sound quality. You've designed artwork here, and we both appreciate it greatly.
"-a link to it in the Critic's Circle-"
Oh I forgot about that. Cool, I'll look into putting link or reposting there or whatever works.
Stace,
"-Hey, I'll just tell myself that he's compensating for something!"
I AM NOT!!!! (doth he protest too much?? hehe).
Careful w/ track 20 on Red Violin! So dynamic! The Alpha's say 'no prob', but the Newforms even crossed w/ my subs said 'Dude! That's too loud!' hehe
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I also agree with the above posts that your review was very well done. Very informative. I hate to say it but I was hoping you would be critical of it somewhere so that my boiling desire for a pair would be tempered. Remember the first flashy car that you wanted but could not quite swing? That's how I feel right now. The comments and pictures are just eating me alive.
How much do these Alpha's weigh all up? And, can you give me a comment or two on that eART digital amplifier?
[/code]
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azryan,
Did you post some on the Outlaw forum during the "we expect to ship in three weeks" times?
From your pics, you have done an outstanding job on your speakers. Your room is very impressive as well. You have lots to be proud of with your setup.
I got the opportunity to listen to some Alphas a couple of weeks ago being powered by some nice tube amps. Very impressive speakers in my very humble opinion. Was wondering if solid state amps would make much of a difference? Got an opinion?
How far from the speakers is your listening position?
I got a kick out of your grille comments. Unfortunately if I were to build these speakers, I would have to find some way to put a grille on them since children and pets are somehow magically attracted to speakers and just have to touch the cones. It is almost sacrilege to cover the speakers up though.
Brian, after azryan's review, I will want to tag along with you when you go to hear the 6 speaker extravaganza.
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Ryan,
You call that a picture!?:) I can't tell a thing about the finish with that pic. Is it maple? Gimme a good closeup shot of one of the enclosures at a bit of an angle so we can see the side too.
And I imagine your cabinets don't look any worse than the ones we built. The guy was originally going to paint them black but then decided he didn't have time, so he ended up having us put that damn Parts Express vinyl on the enclosures. It ended up looking half way decent, but I'd have much preferred using a real veneer. I've got enough tweeters that he gave me as part of the deal so that when the time comes all I need to do is get the 6.5" woofers and the crossover parts from Danny and we'll be in business!
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You're right about Track 20. Or at least I think it was track 20. I had the Red Violin soundtrack playing while I was typing the above post, just enjoying the nice violin in the background, when all of a sudden...BOOM! A big dynamic passage hit with some low bass, and I nearly jumped off the couch. Good stuff!
And I'm with Brian. More pics, more pics, more pics! Get that guy to send those emails. I want to see more, more, more, since I can't actually see or hear 'em.
Now for the obligatory emoticon: :guitar:
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Here's a question. How do you decide whether the ribbon or woofers go inboard or outboard? Is it for aesthetic reasons, or does the orientation effect the sound? :?:
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...and he has a Miata :D
I got one of them too... this is getting creepy(er) by the minute.
The speakers look great azryan! I also loved the detailed description. Pretty much right long the lines with what I heard at Gary Dodd's house with his great sounding (and beautiful) tube amps.
Now, if I can just get my Alphas finished :cry:
Hey, I got a question... what did you use for wiring? Bonus question, internal or external crossover? One more bonus question, standard caps or fancy caps?
jonwb
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quote
Close to 500 hits and no comments on all the pics I posted and all of two people seem to be interesting in my impressions -one I think really being a 'sympathy post' (thanks Stace).
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-waaaaaaaaaaaaa
or is it the opera singer attitude-me me me,me me me.
i know a whiny opera singer yeh thats it :mrgreen: me waaaaa me waaaaaa me waaaaaa.
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Okay, I'll post a sympathy post. Sympathy for you having to manhandle/move those monsters. The pair I built for Danny were unbelievable heavy.
Okay, feel better? :)
Now post some photos so we can admire.
I imagine the paucity of posts is due to the fact that most guys' wives will not allow them in their homes. For the lucky few that are allowed, I say BUILD 'EM!
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Azryan,
It looks like you are now getting some positive responses the last couple of days. I'm sure there will be more. Your post is beginning to get some of the attention it deserves.
Thank you for the really thorough narrative on your experience and impressions with the Alpha's. You demonstrate a very good understanding of speakers and how the Alpha's compare to other speakers you have had experience with. I am very much in agreement with your viewpoints in that regard. The Alpha drivers and their implementation in a line array seem to create a room loading ability that is completely different from the point source that I am used to.
I am hoping that jonwb, who lives within spitting distance, will be inspired to get his completed and invite me to listen. :wink: If they are as good as you say, it may me impossible for me not to order a pair for myself!
Danny is a very experienced and knowledgeable speaker designer, and the application of his talents and theories must show their full potential with the Alpha. They must be his 'Statement' speaker, and I hope that he will be able to continue to stock the components required to build them. Less than $2000 for the components, and less than $5000 for a finished pair represents incredible value.
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rnhood,
Thanks. I can only say what I hear, and compare to what I've heard and that's what I found. Other people might hear something diff. and/or prefer something diff.
I wouldn't be so silly as to say this is the best speaker in the world since that's just a realm of endless and pointless debate IMO.
"How much do these Alpha's weigh all up?"
I don't really know at all. Clearly far more than I do (135). Danny said 200-250lbs., but I just followed his PDF file so I'm thinking the exact weight should be almost exactly what Danny's are -whatever exactly that is?
"And, can you give me a comment or two on that eART digital amplifier?"
I've written a review of it back when I got it. I'll try to find it and link it to you. I wrote in on the HD forum -should still be there I'm hoping.
It seemed to be maybe a bigger diff. going to it from diff. solid state, and one other Tripath based digital amp, as now going from the Newforms to the Alphas, but that could be partly based on the order of upgrades.
VERY dynamic, totally smooth (no digital dryness, yet nothing warmed over). When I put into my system I thought the Outlaw might hold it back to the point of there being no point of having such an amp, but the diff. was obvious and instant. I told my wife also that if she didn't hear any diff. that I'd send it back. It's just too much $ to have her feel it didn't do anything. She told me not to send it back. I believe it's the most accurate and high end part of my system -not to take anything away from the Alphas at all. I'm lucky I got it when they were intro priced, or I couldn't do it now.
Then again w/ the Alphas I could go w/ a lower powered (cheaper) eAR model.
jacket-fan,
"Did you post some on the Outlaw forum during the "we expect to ship in three weeks" times?"
Yeah. I was one of the first to get a 950. I didn't have that noise prob. w. mine, but later sent it in and got a 'blue dot' 950 for the hell of it. I think maybe it was the noise filter element of the eARTwo that blocked it? I can have the volume cranked to -0db and w/ my ear to the Newforms and now Alphas there's only a slight hint of noise, which when seated normal is FAR beyond audible.
I know there's better DAC elements and I'd like that new Denon 2900 or a modded universal player from Modwright, but I'm still up in the air.
Thanks for you comments too.
Brian,
"You call that a picture!? I can't tell a thing about the finish with that pic.-"
Oh man! hehe I SAID it's one of several to come! hehe I said I'm waiting for my buddy to email me the dig. cam pics. There are some closer up shots, but now I'm going to take one that only shows the veneer just for you! heh
"Is it maple?"
Red birch. VERY much like maple, but reddish instead of yellowish. My room paint is 4 shades of reddish brown so the veneer is a perfect match. Oddly enough the whole thing matches the tone of cardboard box.
"-The guy was originally going to paint them black but then decided he didn't have time, so he ended up having us put that damn Parts Express vinyl on the enclosures. It ended up looking half way decent, but I'd have much preferred using a real veneer.-"
Oh man... you've gotta use real wood. You must've had a hard time seeing him do that.
So you're going to build a pair for yourself? I was wondering if you were.
wshuff,
"-How do you decide whether the ribbon or woofers go inboard or outboard? Is it for aesthetic reasons, or does the orientation effect the sound?"
Danny's pics show them on the outside so I did it that way. The off axis response is great it might work fine either way? Maybe Danny can say more about this.
I could always switch it if I hear a technical reason why it's better to have the Neos on the inside.
jonwb,
"-...and he has a Miata. I got one of them too... this is getting creepy(er) by the minute."
Hehe... and man was it hard hauling the MDF home from Home Depot in it! hehe
"what did you use for wiring?"
Danny sent me some simple OFC stuff. 14 ga. I think. I'm not a wire tweeker. At least not yet.
"internal or external crossover?"
Internal. There's plenty of space for it, and I just didn't want to go external for looks. I've got them bi wired so there should be plenty of copper running inside them, and dead enough that the x-over isn't getting vibed and damaging the signal. Just my preference. I know others have VERY strong wire opinions.
"-standard caps or fancy caps?"
I upgraded to the Sonicaps. I believe in the x-over there's SO much more wire than in your speaker wire, and it's of such smaller ga. that if you're going to tweek it oughta go into the quality of x-over parts first.
I heard a slight but noticalbe diff. going from some cheapo cap to top of the line Theta cap on the Newform ribbon, I decided I'd get the best for the Alphas too.
Hope you get to building your own! I'd love to hear your review copared to the things you've heard. That helps SO much IMO in helping to figure out all sorts of components that we might not be able to hear until we buy them.
rosconey,
Hehe... I was just shocked that no one seemed interested.
I'm not looking for pats on the back or anything. I wasn't 'asking' for sympathy posts, I was thanking Wshuff for posting what I knew 'was' a sympathy post. hehe
I'd just like to make that clear.
There's all of 'zero' Alpha reviews and it's Danny's best. Seemed weird. -though I've read a lot of impressions from limited time w/ them.
Hank,
Thanks man! I gotta tell ya...to build mine, I just copied your pics, and changed the veneer!
It would have been a lot harder without them. I'm sure the ones you built are better though.
But for a novice like me they're very dead, and the drivers fit tightly, and the veneer looks mostly killer IMO which is good enough for me.
Ya know, they really don't 'look' that heavy. Then you touch them and it's about twice what you imagine! hehe.
Thanks Jerry!
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Azryan,
I admire your woodworking skill. It's amazing what a man can build with a cheap circular saw and a $2 blade. Congratulation, you should be proud of your new toy.
BTW, if you don't mind telling us how much cost for the entire project (not including your hard labor and tools).
Thanks
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My response to your post is that I got the Alpha plans from Danny today and am going to start on my own set.
I was just going to get the Diluceo, but your thread has encouraged me to pursue this, as I always wanted a line source anyway.
I'll try the cabinets, and if I can't get it right, will just call Brian.
I can't believe you cut the wood with a circular saw. I can't even cross cut a damn 2x4 straight. Will probably have a cabinet shop do the cuts on a table saw, then do the assembly and routing myself.
Thanks for all the info.
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F-100,
"-It's amazing what a man can build with a cheap circular saw and a $2 blade.-"
Thanks a lot! But really, I'm no builder.
I grew up around a shop-like garage, but really never did anything like is ever. That's the point I wanted to make.
If you've got the time and space, it's not terribly hard. It helps to have some saw horses to cut on. I used milk crates on the garage floor!! My back ended up killing me! hehe
"-BTW, if you don't mind telling us how much cost for the entire project (not including your hard labor and tools)."
Mostly the cost was Danny's kit, ~$100 for sonicap upgrade, plus ~$200 for 4 sheets of blackhole 5 (yikes! But it is good stuff).
Then there's the $120 for 5 sheets of MDF (I have a 'map' I made of how to cut it all up that worked well for me w/ little scrap), $13 for Titebond2 wood glue, fat floor spikes and binding posts from Parts Express ( =Danny rec. top quality but costly binding posts, but I went w/ the 091-1245 from Pt. Exp. I'm a cheapskate I guess).
Veneer was $200 (maple, birch and oak are the cheapest at the local place), already had the polycoat and black base plate paint from doing the subs in the same finish.
I got lost along the way adding it all up, but I think about $2,500 or $2,600-ish.
I did have to buy a $30 circ. saw, $50 circle jigs, $30 router, $25 roundover set, got some free straight bits from a neighbor and library (why does a library have router bits???) and the $2 saw blade. Already had the drill and my wife's 'Do it Herself' toolkit w/ screwdriver, torx bits, etc... hehe
Overall I just call it well under $3K, and I've got tools and better skills now to do other stuff sometime. I'm going to do a equipt. shelf next, so I can have a row of equip. on the floor (on glass) and another row above it.
drphoto,
"I was just going to get the Diluceo, but your thread has encouraged me to pursue this, as I always wanted a line source anyway."
GREAT!
I know YOU'll take pics too!
No doubt those Diluceo's are killer for what they are -awesome Eton cones, true ribbon tweeter, and technically flatter response than the Alphas, but then there's the laundry list of Alpha benefits.
I'd like a 'dead flat' speaker, but really it's just a slight tonal character diff., and there are far more advantages in lower distortion, eff. power handling, dynamics, bass loading, bass range, etc...
What do you use now? What are some of the best speakers you've heard? You can PM me if you want or whatever.
If you have someone build the cabinets fully it'll be a breeze for you. It was very easy to solder the x-over and the drivers. I soldered the drivers in my HT room so I didn't have to move a finished speaker around (plus it was 107 outside, so I was done working in the garage)!
"-I can't believe you cut the wood with a circular saw. I can't even cross cut a damn 2x4 straight."
Cutting MDF is easier I think. I didn't freehand it that's for sure. I measured everything very carefully (then measured it again!), then clamped down a 4' long ruler butting up against the edge of the saw's flat edge. You just have to find out how far the ruler has to be from the measured line so that the blade cuts right on the line.
All this is is an upside-down table saw. Same thing really, and as table saw accurate if you set yourself up right.
Remember the saw blade makes like an 1/8" fat cut, and your measured lines should be sharp pencil thin, so cut TO the line not down the middle of it, or inside it making the cut piece too narrow.
And once you cut the first piece... uh... say a 'side piece', then you can use that MDF edge (the outside edge from the factory cut sheet) as a perfect straight edge to guide the circ. saw w/ the rest of the cuts, eventually you'll have a scrap piece that you can save for always having an 8 foot straight edge!
You can use an uncut sheet of MDF to cut that first (easier to handle) piece. Then you don't need to clamp down a ruler that's shorter than the cuts you want.
I thought this up halfway through, and wish I would've done it from the start.
"Will probably have a cabinet shop do the cuts on a table saw, then do the assembly and routing myself."
Assembly and routing are the much harder part IMO -though not hard or anything. I cut that stack of all the MDF (in my first pic) over a few days over a month ago. It was so fast it hurt to see it all sitting there for a month not being able to afford the kit -and expected to have it sit there for maybe up to 6 months even. Things just worked out now.
Set the blade to cut just a hair deeper than each 3/4" MDF sheet, and using that cheapo $2 fine tooth blade, it just zips right through like butter.
Then you can say 'you built them' 100%. That's extra cool for sure! hehe
I built my sonotube end caps w/ a $15 jig saw and cut the circles by hand and filed them smooth. Now THAT was HARD -and stoopid! hehe
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Ryan's right. Cutting the MDF is the easy part. Routing all the holes, while not hard, is very time consuming and really wore on me over the course of six baffles.
Ryan, $200 for veneer? For how many sheets? Just 2 or was it 3? I don't see a specific price posted for red birch, but in the future you might want to check www.tapeease.com for veneer. Even with shipping their prices have been nearly half of any place I've found local to me.
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drphoto,
Louisville? What state? If Kentucky, then I'd love to hear the Alphas when you get them finished (and with all this good discussion, I know you are inspired). I'll offer the same deal. You provide the speakers, I'll bring the cheap American beer. Deal?
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Brian,
Yeah $200 for 2 sheets. Each 4'x8'.
Damn, so that place is like half price?? Man! Well, the one thing I can say for 'in town' is that you can hand pick the veneer sheets.
There were several sheets at the place I got mine and the two I bought were clearly from the same cutting. There were others that looked very diff. in both grain and color.
If you're going to stain it, I suppose that makes the diff. much less important, but I just poly coated mine.
I started it at the outside edge of the neo slot and it reaches all the way around and back to the front just past halfway over the woofer holes. Then I used the 2' trimming off the top to cover the top, bottom (for the hell of it) and the area between the neo slot and the center of the woofers. At those spots the diff. pieces of veneer only have ~an 1/8" touching so you can't see the connection at all.
I stuck one side down then overlapped the other piece.
Then I trimmed the overlap a bit, and carefully filed the overlap down to the venner's paper layer.
Then I could push that veneer down totally flush w/ the already stuck down side, and lightly sanded so there's no gap.
Looks the same as how most veneer's made up of a few sections anyway.
Maybe that was the 'hard way'? I dunno. It's all I could think of and it works. I shoulda asked you probably how to do it, but didn't wan't to bother you.
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I'm not really concerned about matching the veneer. I can order sequence matched sheets for a small upcharge. I've done this on several occasions and they've all come out just fine. I'd sure check with Tape-Ease before I bought any more veneer local; just to be safe of course. I've also just about had it with paperbacked veneers. We've had way too much trouble with it. The NBL stuff has been MUCH better quality than any of the paperbacked stuff we've bought. It's more expensive, but well worth it, IMHO.
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Thanks. Man, I wish I woulda known! hehe
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The NBL stuff has been MUCH better quality than any of the paperbacked stuff we've bought. It's more expensive, but well worth it, IMHO.
I have an upcoming project that will be my first adventure in any veneering beyond edging. I had been planning on ordering something from oakwood (http://www.oakwoodveneer.com), but am interested in your comments. Have you bought from Oakwood and would you recommend the NBL veneer from TapeEase instead?
I've been reading up on veneering tips and tricks - any suggestions for beginners. I've seen your work and know you guys know what you're doing. :) (I definitely plan on several test runs on scraps before the actual project.)
Thanks
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Brad,
I've never ordered from oakwood so I can't comment on them. I've found that the veneer facing on the NBL veneer is much better than any of the paperbacked veneers we've bought and we've not had any trouble with the NBL veneer bubbling like we've had with paperbacked.
Tape-Ease has veneering tips on their website and that's what I've always gone by. Use contact cement and either a veneer hammer to scrape the veneer (gives better pressure than a J-roller) or you can use the edge of a solid piece of wood to scrape the veneer. Use the solvent based contact cement, which can be bought at HD or Lowe's, and make sure you have good ventilation.
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I just finished slapping on my first sheet of veneer I got on E-bay on the backside of one of my Ellis 1801's. At first I was a bit nervous of veneering and the results I would get, but I must say if you follow directions veneering is simple, simple, simple. I used Dapwood contact cement and it works great. Just as others stated above, make sure you have ADEQUATE ventilation. I was gonna do it in my garage with all the doors open :nono: , but when a can says, "BEFORE USE TURN OFF MAIN GAS VALVE" you start to think twice. :o Just make sure you let it gas off for about twenty minutes and stick on there carefully. The results are rewarding.
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Thank to both of you for the advice. I'll look at ordering NBL from TapeEase when the time comes and I'll read through their tips. Any advice on finishing (gloss)? There are a number of methods and opinions. Brian, if you don't mind saying, what do you do on the GR speakers? I'm guessing I'll do alright with what I do, but thought I'd ask.
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C'mon guys.. talking veneer as it relates to the Alpha kit like cost and how to apply it was cool, but just veneer talk in general is off topic.
You guys should be PM'ing Brian IMO, or starting a new thread, or going to his forum for more of this.
I wouldn't want people to stop reading this thread 'cuz it looked like it stopped having anything to do w/ Danny's Alpha kit. How often does this kit get spotlighted? Almost never?
I'm going to be posting several new pics soon, and will post the link here. Don't want people to miss it if they were interested in seen closer-up shots of Alphas.
They look awesome from behind too! Those 4 flared ports are killer.
So back to Alpha kit comments ok?
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So back to Alpha kit comments ok?
The Alphas sure are tall, aren't they? :D
Just kidding! Actually, if you do some searches on this forum, hometheaterforum.com and harmonicdiscord.com, you'll find Brian has posted basically step-by-step instructions... so do a little homework and don't make the poor guy type it all out again.
OK, Ryan, I got a couple Alpha construction ?'s for you:
1. Did you solder your connections to the speakers or use crimp-on terminals (and why)?
2. When you routered your recess for the tweeters, did you just make it the length called out on the plans or did you have to tweek it a little?
3. Any stuffing in the tweeter cavity?
4. What type of fasteners did you use to attach the drivers to the enclosures?
5. Did you paint the silver rivets on the Neo8's?
Thanks,
Jon
Audiojerry... consider yourself invited. I'm shooting for the end of June. You may need to bring some electronics w/ you since I'm still pretty much a mid-fi guy :)
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Jon,
Actually, the weight of the cabinets is more substantial than the height! :)
And don't worry, I ain't gonna post step by step veneer instructions again! Once was enough.
Brad,
Currently we're using polyurethane in satin, semi-gloss, and high gloss finishes. They're wipe-on polys as we are not set up to spray finishes at the moment.
Ryan,
Actually, I kinda like threads that sort of ramble off course and then come back around to the original topic naturally. I think it makes them more personable and light hearted. But then again, I think I sometimes just like to hear myself talk! :)
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Ryan,
Since I'm considering this project (inspired by your results!) I'm really interested in seeing more detailed constuction pics.
In particular, I'm a bit confused about the shape of divider that forms the tweeter compartment...based on the plan.
Hopefully you can set up a gallery here. (or you could email me all that you have)
BTW: did you 'round off' the front baffle edges? After seeing my neighbors Proacs...I actually kinda like the look of razor sharp edges, but maybe there are sonic benifits to rounding.
On the veneer isssue....I might go with an auto type paint finish. I think these would look really sharp in Porsche metallic silver/clearcoat.
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What about the tweeters' enclosure are you confused about? I haven't looked at the plans in awhile, but the inner side comes up to somewhere around 3" below the outer side piece. Then a piece of MDF sits on top of the inner side edge at 90 degrees forming the back of the tweeter enclosure. Then the front to back brace forms the other side of the tweeter enclosure.
Does this help any?
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jonwb,
"-The Alphas sure are tall, aren't they?"
hehe... Brian's right, it's the weight far more than height. They just don't look nearly as heavy as they are, but I guess 'cuz they're like 2 cabinets in one being double thick 3/4" MDF.
"1. Did you solder your connections to the speakers or use crimp-on terminals (and why)?"
Solder. When you solder you're getting a direct and large connection of speaker wire touching the driver terminals. You can kinda get that w/ crimp-on terms. but mostly it's the metal of the term. touching the driver terms. I just don't like it. Might be no big deal though, but if you're doing something like this, even I wouldn't cut a corner like that.
You might want to use them to wire everything up to be sure it works, and then cut them off and solder a perm. connection.
Maybe Danny can chime in with a real answer though?
"2. When you routered your recess for the tweeters, did you just make it the length called out on the plans or did you have to tweek it a little?"
Dang, I forget? I think I sort of went by the plans and then also measured the actual drivers to be sure I was exact.
I remeber there were some things on the plans that I emailed Danny about 'cuz they were wrong or measurments missing. Not a big deal though and Danny got me the answers. I'd hope he'd updated the things I pointed out, but no idea.
"3. Any stuffing in the tweeter cavity?"
Yeah, I glued in 1/2" open cell foam, and also polyfil above and below the neos which is just space in the Neo's sub-cabinet not really doing anything. Danny I'm sure can say what he prefers, but the only point is to kill the back wave. The drivers can play in open air so the fill isn't there to control them at all.
"4. What type of fasteners did you use to attach the drivers to the enclosures?"
Danny sent screws. For the woofers they have nice torx head screws and the woofer frame is countersunk around the screw holes so they don't stick out. Looks really nice.
For the Neos and rear ports I used the smaller phillips head screws he sent. Everything's black so they look good too. Normally I wouldn't like Phillips heads and rather have Torx or Hex heads on speakers but it works on the Neos IMO. I think I had enough Torx screws though that I coulda used them on the Neos too, but not sure. They don't get countersunk so I liked the smaller phillips head ones.
Don't worry about the heads sticking out though, 'cuz the neo sticks out in front of that, but you already have the kit right, so you can see what I mean looking at the Neo 8 driver?
"5. Did you paint the silver rivets on the Neo8's?"
Yes. I did it after they were all done though. I don't know why. I shoulda done it before I was done. The silver rivets in a big long line does look cool though so you might NOT want to paint them. I think that's why I didn't till I was done. I wanted to see how it looked. For my room painted black looks better to me.
Dr. Photo,
"-Since I'm considering this project (inspired by your results!)-"
Thanks! I was inspired by Danny's assertion that this was his best speaker beyond the Diluceos -among many other reasons.
You'll be in for a much bigger change than me I think. For the better also though I believe.
"-I'm really interested in seeing more detailed constuction pics."
Ooooh... that's a hard one. I posted what I took. 'cept for more 'finished' pics which my buddy promised to send already. I 'hope' I'll get 'em soon since I want to see them myself!
If it was my own digital cam I woulda taken a lot more pics, but since it was just my buddy's and him coming over every once in a while I just got 'stage by stage' quick progress shots. Really I went so fast he would've had to come over every day to get all the details of the work.
"-In particular, I'm a bit confused about the shape of divider that forms the tweeter compartment...based on the plan."
There's a sheet of MDF that runs from the inside back to inside face. Then you glue a 2nd layer of MDF behind the face for the woofers, but not behind the Neo section. There you run a long thin strip between the divider and the inner side wall, but about 3' back.
You don't really need to know how far back 'cuz in the plans you'll see that the side wall 2nd inner layer on the Neo side doesn't go all the way from the back to the face. It stops a few inches from the face, and that thin strip blocking off the neo's just rests on that inner sidewall edge.
Damn, that was confusing, and I did it already! Sorry if that didn't help?
"-BTW: did you 'round off' the front baffle edges?"
Yeah. I used a 1/2" roundover bit. Couldn't get a 3/4" roundover but Danny said it's just for looks (I made sure beforehand) and there's no diffraction effect from having less of a roundover.
I'm thinking it's probably the same for a razor sharp edge too, but I'd ask Danny to be sure, since that's even more extreme.
You might find that a lot harder to veneer and get that perfect edge than just being able to roll the veneer around the edge, but sounds like you're not going to veneer it?
"On the veneer isssue....I might go with an auto type paint finish. I think these would look really sharp in Porche metallic silver/clearcoat."
Wow. That'd be wild! Not my thing, but hey, they're yours. They should be a one of a kind right?
I'd think that painted look would be better w/ a rounded edge though.
Hope you'll always have a lot of silver in your HT room. If there was nothing else silver you might later come to find them not matching your room? Something to think about long term maybe?
I'm sure they'd be killer in piano gloss black too since the drivers are all black, but matte black so they'd still stand out and be very striking, but I personally love real wood more than any other finish.
Someone needs to do these in Piano black! And maybe leave the rivets silver, but all black would look more refined I think.
Dark cherry's the best wood color IMO (like Danny's), but just doesn't match my room so I didn't really have a choice of color. I like the light wood too. It makes a bolder statement w/ the black drivers moreso than dark cherry I think.
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So, uh...how 'bout them pics? (cue Jeopardy theme)
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I finally got more pics emailed to me, and put 'em up right away.
http://home.earthlink.net/~azstrehlow/htroom3.html
I'm still totally loving these speakers. I'm not sure if I've been hearing any real significant break-in, but 'possibly' a hair clearer in the highs, but they were already clearer than anything I've ever heard.
I've watched a few DVD's recently that have been a hair bright and w/ obvious noise (the 'Three Colors' trilogy, and some Japanese anime) and while never harsh, the brightness still shows through, again showing me there's nothing missing on the high end.
I'll have to see what happens when I listen to Red Hot Chili Pepper's 'Californication' 'cuz that thing's one of the brightest worst recorded CD's I've ever heard.
BTW, never been a Ret Hot fan, but their latest CD 'By the Way' is fantastic. Every song is great IMO, and it's recorded pretty well too. Just goes to show you never know what you're gonna get from a new CD.
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Ryan,
Those look great! I swear that red birch looks like maple though! :)
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Thanks.
Yeah, maple looks almost the same. Almost exact same grain, but on the yellow side, and this is more on the orangish side.
My first two sonotube subs I did (baby 4.5' tall ones -hehe) were in maple. I doesn't match my room at all, but w/ the black ends has a classy Japanese sort of look I think.
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Azryan, those look great! BTW, I built Danny's Alphas and the veneer is Padauk, which Danny requested. Padauk has a decidedly orange-ish tint and is unique. Enjoy your Alpha's! :wink:
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Ryan,
First and foremost let me congratulate you on doing an excellent job on the Alpha's. Secondly I would like to thank you for your almost step by step photo album documenting the construction of the speakers. I have never built speakers, but after viewing this thread and the associated links, I feel like the Alpha's would be a possibility for me.
As you may have guessed from my user name I am a big fan of Magnepan speakers. I have owned almost every model from the MMG's up to the MG20's which I currently am running along with a custom subwoofer setup. I am extremely pleased with my current setup and have yet to hear anything else that even approaches it.
I have been drawn to the Alpha's because of their similarities to the larger Maggie's although there are considerable differences as well.
They appear to be a possible contender to the larger Maggies.
Have you or anyone else on this thread had an opportunity to compare the Alpha's to some of the larger Magnepan's? I have heard that the Newform's and Maggies have some similarities as well?
How long did it take you to build the cabinets?
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Thanks MaggieGuy.
The cabinets took about a month I think? There's was about a month gap in between when I did nothing because I couldn't afford the kit.
Spent a few hours on it every day. Have no idea really how many hours total which I'm sure would help you out a lot more to know. sorry.
When I just owned the Newform 630's I really liked them and was going to get the 645's, but because of all the raves of Maggie owners I said I 'MUST' hear them as well.
I was in San Diego and visited a very high end hi-fi shop and they had the 12's, and the 1.6's. Both the quasi-ribbons. i've never heard the 'true' ribbon models.
They had Enya on the demo (a CD I owned and knew well) and it sounded really good, but FAR more airy than I knew it was really recorded as.
So I pulled it out and put in Nirvana's Nevermind which is known for being very well recorded for a heavy rock CD of that kind.
Not to be insulting, but honestly it was so not even close to good that my wife and I decided 'no way' to maggies, but we listened for about an hour there just on the 1.6's.
The sound was terribly flat in dynamics -the drums sounded like a toy set, Cobain's voice sounded like an unfocused cloud (I'm sure that could have been improved in an optimal set-up, but the room wasn't bad at all).
The treble didn't sound as clear and sharp as the Newform ribbon at all. Newforms sound much closer to Logans than Maggies IMO, though still clear differences.
I've heard several Newform owners say that the true ribbon Maggie treble is much closer to the Newform's quasi ribbon, but I've never heard them.
The height of the 20's I'm sure will be matched w/ the Alphas, and there's really nothing about the Alphas that's worse than the Newform 645's IMO.
The only thing is a slight airyness that the Newforms added that the Alphas don't, but I really think it's a distortion element, and don't miss it as the clarity and detail are better w/ the Alphas.
From every freq. resp. measurment of the Maggies I've even seen they seem to not measure even close to flat, but I've heard many Maggie owners say it's so hard to measure them that those measurments don't mean anything. I dunno.
There's without a doubt going to be a LARGE diff. between your 20's and the Alphas.
You might not want that change, but I think you'll find them more accurate, detailed by not adding a rear wave airy blur to everything (I'm not a fan of dipoles at all), much easier to power, and by far the biggest diff... dynamics should be no contest.
Hope that helps and wasn't meant to insult in any way.
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Ryan,
Thanks for the quick response.
There is really no comparison between the 1.6QR and the MG20's except that they are both dipoles. I would have to agree that the frequency response of Maggies is hard to measure and would have alot and I mean alot to do with proper setup and room acousitcs. Unless you have heard the 20's or maybe the 3.6's with a properly integrated subwoofer setup then there is really no comparison at all. I am looking forward to hearing the Alpha's at a friends house in a couple of weeks when he has them ready. I think he has a total of six line arrays for his HT room and a separate music room containing two more. If I am impressed enough I will probably build a pair and then I can do a direct comparison to the MG20's. Danny has sent me the cabinet drawings and I will be looking them over over the next several weeks.
How about placement on the Alpha's? I have my Maggies a little over three feet from the back wall and maybe 10 inches from the side walls.
I wish my room was a little larger 14 X 22, but I sort of got carried away with upgrades and such. I'm sure you can understand!
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Let me know what you think compared to the 20's.
The height should be similar but the way they project sound I think is VERY diff. Tonally they should be very diff. too. Like it or not I have little doubt you'll hear a big diff. in sound.
As for placement, I've got mine ~5' from the wall behind them, and ~4' from the side walls, and slightly toed in. I'm probably going to take the spikes off the base plates soon and double check I've got the best placement. I was giving them break in time to make sure they're ready to be perfectly placed. Probably won't move very much.
Obviously w/ the Maggies you can have them close to the side walls, but for the sharpest imaging I find that almost all speakers should be about 8 or 9 feet apart max, which sounds like farther than you've got yours based on the room size you said.
The off axis response of the Alphas is great. The sound really doesn't seem to change much at all.
It seemed like w/ the 1.6 Magnepans I heard you really needed to heavily toe them in and too sit dead center to get any kind of imaging. I really wanted to throw a couple bales of fiberglass batting behind them.
That shop also had the 20's but they weren't hooked up. Man, I shoulda asked 'em to do that, but I only saw them after listening for so long to the 1.6's and didn't want to ask.
They had the Martin Logan Prodigies in another room w/ LOTS of space from the walls, and that sounded great! Huge Krell monoblocks, and Wadia CD.
One of the best sounds I'd ever heard, and at the time clearly better than my home system.
Even after getting the 645's it wasn't until I got the eARTwo digital amp that I thought my home system sounded at that level.
The Alphas are more like icing than anything. Just that much better.
I'll have to look up more on the Maggies. I thought the panels for the quasi and true ribbons were the same (from MMG to 20), and just the size diff. of the panels and quasi or true ribbon were the only diff.?
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Ryan,
You are correct about the Maggies needing signigicant toe-in for proper imaging. When they are properly set up you can achieve a huge soundstage with imaging width and depth that other speakers rarely achieve. I have listened to some of the larger Martin Logans and although they look pretty cool, I much prefer the sound and imaging of the MG20's.
You are also correct about the off-axis response which is especially noticable with the lower models of Magnepans. It's still there with the 20's,
but because they are so large it is not as much of an issue. At my house I am the only one who acutally cares about being in the sweet spot anyway.
Also there is no question that the Maggies are terribly inefficient, especially the 20's. I am running 700WPC into them and they just suck it up and ask for more. Don't get me wrong because they will play extremely loud or louder than my ears can stand, but I would guess that the sound could be improved with amps such as Innersound ESL Monoblocks (1400WPC).
I think the efficiency of the Alpha's is awesome and I would relish the opportunity to hear them on tube amplification such as the Dodd amplifiers.