AudioCircle

Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Herbie's Audio Lab => Topic started by: Emil on 8 Oct 2009, 05:29 pm

Title: Footers
Post by: Emil on 8 Oct 2009, 05:29 pm

before I even consider these, maybe i should get rid of my Lowe's rack :lol:


Should   a sturdy, audiophile approved rack be a prerequisite to appreciate the benefits of your footers?

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 8 Oct 2009, 06:08 pm

Because Herbie's decoupling footers isolate components from the rack, the rack factor is less important than if you were rigidly coupling your components to the rack or using the factory feet. (The rack, shelves, even the floor will still have some influence, however.)

A rigid, "stereophile-approved" rack is in no way a prerequisite. Tenderfeet go a long way to bring out more of the best potential of audio components within virtually any kind of vibrational environment.

You might look at this conversely: that Herbie's footers are a prerequisite to getting more listening enjoyment from your system with a modest rack. If you should upgrade to an "audiophile" rack sometime, Herbie's footers will be right at home, delivering even potentially better results.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: jtwrace on 10 Oct 2009, 08:48 pm

Steve,

What are your thoughts of placing Granite under each critical (DAC, Pre...) component on the rack?  Of course then using Tenderfeet with each component.   

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 10 Oct 2009, 09:05 pm

Fine. Granite slab, maple butcher block, Brite Star Little Rock all work very well as platforms between footers and shelf, helping to bring out a little "more better." All work best also decoupled with grungebuster Dots between the platform and shelf.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: jtwrace on 10 Oct 2009, 09:32 pm

Quote from: Herbie on 10 Oct 2009, 09:05 pm

Fine. Granite slab, maple butcher block, Brite Star Little Rock all work very well as platforms between footers and shelf, helping to bring out a little "more better." All work best also decoupled with grungebuster Dots between the platform and shelf.

~Steve

Great!  I'll have some more Granite cut then...

On the grungebuster, are you better with smaller diameter (less surface area) or larger (more surface area) to the shelf / granite?

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 10 Oct 2009, 11:47 pm

There's no one-size-fits-all answer for every circumstance. Regular 7/8" or 1" diameter grungebuster Dots virtually always do a great job decoupling platform and shelf, though. More breadth is not detrimental and could be beneficial sometimes. The more important parameter is the thickness. You want enough compliant thickness to smooth out and inhibit jaggedy micro-vibrations that like to penetrate and travel through hard materials. You also want to keep a firm, low profile rather than build up a wobbly totem pole. Standard 1.6mm-thick grungebuster Dots are perfect in most cases. Sometimes with a turntable platform, Extra-Thick (and/or broader) grungebuster Dots are more appropriate on a rack particularly prone to lots of vibration.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: roscoeiii on 11 Oct 2009, 12:10 am

Steve,

When you say "rigidly coupling" are you here referring to metal cones and spikes? In general I am a bit confused on vibration isolation that would seem to dampen vibrations (Vibrapods, half inflated bike tubes, etc) vs. the spiky metal footers. How to tell when and where one is needed vs the other? Or should I be thinking in terms of them in conjunction?

If I am understanding you correctly above, for those of us with less than ideal racks, vibration dampening is the way to go? (And apologies if I don't have the terminology entirely correct. Newbie to rack vibration isolation.)

I am trying a few of your interconnect dampers shortly, and look forward to seeing what they do for the sound of my system. Tho working on my shelves may provide greater benefit...

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 11 Oct 2009, 06:37 am

Hi, roscoiii. Rigidly coupling refers to cones, spikes, roller bearings, bolts, whatever rigidly couples.

I suggest using spikes or cones when you want stiff lateral stability, like rack to floor and loudspeaker through carpet to a concrete foundation. With individual components on a rack, it's been my experience that isolation/decoupling is better if you're employing excellent materials for the job. In the past, cones had often worked better than other alternatives because there were virtually no excellent compliant materials for the job. That's no longer the case, though.
 
Audio components have unique vibrational problems. It's mostly higher-frequency micro-vibrations that you cannot feel or detect that cause most of the sonic glare, harshness and other anomalies. These energetic vibrations travel readily through hard materials and rigid interfaces.
 
Common and industrial off-the-shelf vibration-control products are not formulated specifically to address audio's particular needs. A rubber formulated to reduce vibrations of a workbench motor will have little affect with an audio component and is more likely to give ill affect. Likewise, materials that are good at absorbing shock in a shoe aren't necessarily going to quell the micro-vibrations that disturb a capacitor. By the same token, Herbie's materials that are formulated for audio systems probably wouldn't be great as a jogger's shoe insert.

With audio components, I believe vibration damping is the way to go regardless of the quality of the rack. Virtually every audio rack is less than ideal.
 
Footers between component and shelf are usually the primary isolation. I would consider interconnect dampers and Stabilizers as supplemental.
 
There's a thread further down called "coupling vs. isolation" that also touches on these issues that you're asking about.

Good luck with your system, and I'll hope to be hearing from you again.
 
Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: roscoeiii on 11 Oct 2009, 02:27 pm

Many thanks Steve. Much appreciated.

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: solentgreen on 21 Oct 2009, 03:04 pm

Hi Steve,

If one has a power amplifier which is placed on the floor between the speakers, how can it best be decoupled?  My (SS) power amp is at present supported by your wonderful Iso-cup & balls, which in turn sit on a platform which are supported by upward pointing spikes placed on the floor.  I live in a concrete apartment so the floor is concrete, though that will still be subject to vibrations from my floor standing speakers. 

Would you suggest I replace the spikes with say Tenderfeet?  Or can I retain the spikes but maybe add a layer of grungebuster dots between the floor & the flat surface of the cones?  And if I am on the right path here, which thickness grungebuster material would you suggest for this application.

Many thanks for your advise, Steve.

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 21 Oct 2009, 04:07 pm

Hi, Benjamin. You should be in pretty good shape as it is. I would suggest adding a thin grungebuster Dot between the flat side of each cone and the floor.

(For an amp on the floor between loudspeakers, decoupling the speaker/floor interface is highly beneficial to achieve superior amplifier isolation.)

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: solentgreen on 21 Oct 2009, 05:16 pm

I already use your excellent Cone/Spike Decoupling Gliders on my speakers so that should be fine.

Many thanks Steve,


Benjamin.

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: maxwalrath on 21 Oct 2009, 08:33 pm

Hi Steve, I have some "big" tenderfeet that aren't sold any more.  They are about 1.5" in width & depth, and about 50% taller than regular tenderfeet.  What kind of weight can these big tenderfeet handle? 

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 22 Oct 2009, 04:51 am

Hi, Max. Each BIG Tenderfoot supports and isolates 2 to 200 pounds (1-90kg).

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=23041)

Here's a picture of even bigger Giant Tenderfeet supporting a 2-ton van (one Giant Tenderfoot under each tire, rear wheel shown):

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=23039)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: maxwalrath on 22 Oct 2009, 04:54 am

Thanks...and that's 200 lbs each for the 1.5x1.5 ones, right?  so 4 big tenderfeet will have no problem holding up a 180 lb rack?

...nevermind, gotcha.  They are going under the rack. 

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 22 Oct 2009, 05:16 am

Yes, each footer will effectively handle 200 pounds (and then some). No problem handling the weight. Because of their compliance though, you might have a little more wobble than you'd like if the rack is very tall. Certainly no harm giving them a try; they'll probably do very well for you.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Big Red Machine on 22 Oct 2009, 12:15 pm

I find that the balls on the Iso-cups are so slippery that the component just wants to slide around on top of them.  Is the ball important or can just the cup be used?

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 22 Oct 2009, 02:29 pm

Hi, Big Red Machine. If your component is so light that it will slide on the Iso-Cup balls, it might do just as well without the balls, sitting directly on the compliant Iso-Cups. No harm trying it that way to see.

Preventing the component from sliding is an easy fix, though. Just place a thin "smudge" of Permatex Blue RTV Silicone Gasket Maker (available at auto parts stores) on the component bottom where it makes contact with the balls and allow to dry. Or, place a little smudge on top of each ball. This will be like having the brakes on with no adverse sonic affect and sometimes even makes a slight sonic improvement.

Iso-Cups are most commonly used with tube amps which are heavy enough to rest solidly on the balls without sliding (cups hold the balls firmly, they do not roll).
 
Though Tenderfoot isolation feet would be a default recommendation, Iso-Cups w/Lampblack Balls usually work very well with smaller components also. Components will not slide on them unless the bottom plate is fairly slick and lateral pressure is applied (unless they are pushed). Placing a hand on the component while changing settings, etc. will prevent the component from sliding, or the Permatex fix can be applied.
 
Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: solentgreen on 28 Oct 2009, 04:22 pm

Hi Steve,

A friend of mine uses Musical Fidelity 750k Supercharger mono-block power amps, which are equipped with 3 cones at the bottom as supports.  Given that they are mono-blocks, they are sited on the floor quite close to his speakers, PMC IB2s which are stand mounted. 

I was wondering which of your products would be best to de-couple his Supercharger amps from floor borne vibrations from the speakers.  He already uses your Big Fat Dots in between the speakers & the speaker stands.     

Thanks for your advise,


Benjamin.

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 28 Oct 2009, 04:53 pm

Hi, Benjamin. Herbie's Medium or Large Cone/Spike Grounding Bases, under the present cones, would probably be best.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=23276)

If your friend is using the cones pointed-side-up, then "Grounding Base Pads Only" between the flat side of the cones and the floor would provide very good isolation.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: StereoNut on 14 Nov 2009, 03:04 am

Linn LP12

What's best... Cones/spikes with footers underneath or Tenderfeet between the TT frame and the shelf?

Thanks!
SN

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 14 Nov 2009, 03:34 am

Depends on the vibrational environment, system variables, and personal preference. With an LP12, you should get pretty good results with either (Tenderfeet, or cones with Cone/Spike Grounding Bases). Because the LP12 already has some compliance with its suspension, I would recommend Cone/Spike Grounding Bases if you already use cones and if you feel confident in your shelf/rack integrity. Expecially if you are also using a Way Excellent II Turntable Mat. We have lots of LP12 customers using small Cone/Spike grounding bases under cones.

We also have many customers using sets of four Tenderfeet with LP12s, with very good results. Tenderfeet would have an advantage with footfall and other macro-type vibrations, if that is a parameter of consideration in your case.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: rollo on 6 Feb 2010, 07:12 pm

  Herbie we have Pipedream speakers sitting on wool carpet over 3/4' marine ply which rests on wood 2x3 laying on a 2 to 3 "oncrete slab. A tight solid situation.
  The Pipedreams have a base with [4] spike holes. Never used the spikes or can find them now. The speakers are siting on the carpet.
 So ? What to do ? We would need [8] of whatever you recco. gliders ? spikes ? cones ?

thanks,

charles

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 6 Feb 2010, 07:35 pm

Hi, Charles. Several options are available that would provide satisfactory results. I recommend giving Herbie's new Threaded Stud Gliders a try.

You can get equivalent results without using the spike holes with Superior Carpet Spikes or Giant Fat Gliders.

Sorry, but you have to decide  ;)

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: gerald porzio on 6 Feb 2010, 08:59 pm

Was someone specially hired to think up names for these hi-end isolation/decoupling products? That seems like a full time job in itself.

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 7 Feb 2010, 12:23 am

Would you like to apply for the job? Seriously. It would only be part-time, though. And no pay.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: gerald porzio on 7 Feb 2010, 02:13 am

In my world, no pay = no job. No, thanks.

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 7 Feb 2010, 02:29 am

 :cry:

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: rollo on 7 Feb 2010, 03:27 pm

Quote from: gerald porzio on  6 Feb 2010, 08:59 pm

Was someone specially hired to think up names for these hi-end isolation/decoupling products? That seems like a full time job in itself.

  Glad someone did. Bought the TT matt great results the same for the tube dampers. Real Hi end here spent almost $90. The best $90 so far.
  Thanks Herbie for the response, i tried carpet sliders used for furniture moving yesterday for a goof. Excellent results. More clarity, mid bass presence and cleaner  extended highs. Imaging improved as wellwith increased depth and width. Quite an improvement.
  Spikes or sliders that is the question. So if both offer the same results it is either or, correct ?


charles

 

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: rollo on 7 Feb 2010, 03:30 pm

Quote from: Herbie on  7 Feb 2010, 02:29 am

:cry:

 A blessing in disquise.  :duh:


charles

Title: Re: Footers
Post by: Herbie on 7 Feb 2010, 07:09 pm

Hi, Charles. Sonic results between Carpet Spikes and Gliders would likely be equivalent, but not necessarily the "same." It's more a matter of the functionality that you prefer. Superior Carpet Spikes provide more secure lateral stability; Fat Gliders allow easier positioning/movement of your speakers.

Because your speakers work well with furniture sliders, I think it's a sure bet that they would work as well and probably even better with one of the Glider options. I think Treaded Stud Gliders would be your best option because the Gliders would be held securely in place while readily removeable.

BTW, commercial furniture sliders usually give a poor result with floor-standing speakers, but if they are giving excellent results with yours, you might just be okay as is.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab (http://herbiesaudiolab.net/index.htm)