Our first off-topic topic :)

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James Romeyn

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Our first off-topic topic :)
« on: 30 Aug 2013, 03:35 pm »
At the DIY forum members analyzed in painstaking and repetitive detail every known, potential, and apparent difference between Hypex' two Ncore platforms: NC400 exclusively for DIY, and NC1200 exclusively for OEM.

Besides power (former 600W @ 2 Ohms, latter 1200W @ 2 Ohms) the greatest difference appears to be the input stages.  During the design stage Bruno polled the DIY community, who loudly and repetitively demanded discreet input.  Conversely, Bruno polled no OEM for the OEM NC1200, and this no holds barred (far more costly) version has IC input.

After analyzing the two, DIY conclusion was wholly anti-intuitive:
The opamp input performs better and cost Bruno less, while the discreet input demanded by the DIY world costs more and performs at a lower level. 

Go figure.  My understanding is that opamp tolerances are many multiples higher than discreet circuits.  The audiophile allergy to opamps appears to be self defeating in the extreme.   

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Our first off-topic topic :)
« Reply #1 on: 30 Aug 2013, 03:44 pm »
Okay James, I think I at least appreciate that implementation of a technology is what counts more than anything else - generalizations are just that...generalizations. The devil is in the details. To that end, I am sure Morten is showing that to be true. I hope to audition one some day, of course, it would have to be a balanced version in my system.

Best,
Anand.

*Scotty*

Re: Our first off-topic topic :)
« Reply #2 on: 30 Aug 2013, 03:54 pm »
A little further off topic. A discrete circuit will generally have a much lower parts count
than an IC that does the same job. How an audio amplifier or buffer IC might sound is highly variable and has to
evaluated on case by case basis. One of the most common errors is to chose a "boutique" IC
with too low a slew rate and use it for IV stage on a current out DAC. This guarantees slewing distortion and a bad sounding result for which the DAC is erroneously blamed.
Scotty

richidoo

Re: Our first off-topic topic :)
« Reply #3 on: 30 Aug 2013, 05:39 pm »
Nice try James Romeyn. Bruno's successes and failures prove nothing regarding IC v. discreet. I would not include him among the great analog designers in history.

LDRs are old technology, but what makes this particular preamp so valuable is the microprocessor (IC) control which allows perfect channel trimming and solid state source switching, which is even better than Caig Gold.

James Romeyn

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Re: Our first off-topic topic :)
« Reply #4 on: 30 Aug 2013, 06:05 pm »
Nice try James Romeyn. Bruno's successes and failures prove nothing regarding IC v. discreet. I would not include him among the great analog designers in history.

LDRs are old technology, but what makes this particular preamp so valuable is the microprocessor (IC) control which allows perfect channel trimming and solid state source switching, which is even better than Caig Gold.

I wasn't trying anything except to post what the DIY community seemed to agree on.  I have no personal knowledge of the differences.  No one contradicted the opinion I mentioned for several weeks after it appeared.  There's a lot of apparently smart guys doing their best to make conclusions on that subject, but I'm not one of them. 

I don't think anyone made any general statement about the two technologies.  It was just in regards to those two amps.  Sorry, I certainly am generally uninformed on the differences except for what I posted. 

Sorry to ruffle feathers! 

What about the statement of the opposing view, the member who stated the mere existence of IC defines failure?   Does he get a pass? 

What's with the DeOxit Gold hate?  I only compared it to not using it.

richidoo

Re: Our first off-topic topic :)
« Reply #5 on: 31 Aug 2013, 01:47 am »
Sorry for the distraction, Morten and glynnw.  Thanks for the review, much appreciated.

john dozier

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Re: Our first off-topic topic :)
« Reply #6 on: 31 Aug 2013, 02:29 am »
If the input IC mentioned is the one I am thinking about, it was designed by the head of Jensen Transformers. It is also used in the ClassD Audio amplifiers. It is superb. Regards

Occam

Re: Our first off-topic topic :)
« Reply #7 on: 31 Aug 2013, 02:51 am »
If the input IC mentioned is the one I am thinking about, it was designed by the head of Jensen Transformers. It is also used in the ClassD Audio amplifiers. It is superb. Regards

Bill Whitlock's bootstrapped input differential amplifier -
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/ingenaes.pdf
http://www.thatcorp.com/datashts/dn133.pdf
That was licensed by THAT Corp?
http://www.thatcorp.com/1200-series_High_CMRR_Balanced_Line_Receiver_ICs.shtml



Ric Schultz

Re: Our first off-topic topic :)
« Reply #8 on: 1 Sep 2013, 02:23 pm »
I have not read any of the discussion on DIYaudio about the differences between the two modules.  However, as a 30 plus year tweak, I can say that even the smallest physical difference can make a huge sonic difference.  The power supply diodes, the power supply caps, the voltage of the power supply, the voltage and type of caps on the board, the layout, the grounding, the trace thickness, the resonance of the heatsinks and chassis, they type of connectors used on the power supply, the fuse, the fuse holder, the brand of solder, whether or not you use leds in the circuit (generally, leds mess up the sound and the NC400 has a bunch of them in it)....don't know if the 1200 has them), brand of resistors, brand and amount of output devices, whether the hardware is magnetic or not, etc. etc. etc.  All the above is true.  I have experienced it directly.   So, any number of things can make a sonic difference.  If you have not done 30 years of subjective listening tests on all kinds of things then you think that it must be something you can measure or some obvious single thing that you see.  When I look at something I see a ton of things that can make a difference.

There is no doubt that the discrete stage in the NC400 sounds different than the IC in the 1200.  Never heard op amps that don't have a different sound from each other and discrete circuits all sound different as well.  But then there are a ton of other things that would make a difference sonically as well.  Although a great discrete circuit will sound better than any opamp, a great opamp will sound better than a lot of discrete circuits not executed well.

I was wondering why the latest Oppo that I modded was not sounding that good.  And then I realized that I had not put 7 cents worth of constrained layer damping material (one half inch by one inch) on the heatsink of the plus 15V regulator.  So, I put it on and OMG!  What a difference.  The sound was transformed from a stereo to a live performance.....staggering.  Of course, I did measurements before and after and after the damping material was put on it measured 10 billion times lower distortion.......not......he he.  I mean, if it does not measure differently, it cannot be important......not.  And naturally, all listening tests were quadruple blind (and deaf as well.  he he).

When we don't know that much then we look for simple answers.  Why things sound the way they do is one of the most complicated and complex things there is.  I have been listening to various parts and implementations for years and I still feel like I know next to nothing.  It is infinite......just like our own nature.

jtwrace

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Re: Our first off-topic topic :)
« Reply #9 on: 1 Sep 2013, 02:36 pm »
And then I realized that I had not put 7 cents worth of constrained layer damping material (one half inch by one inch) on the heatsink of the plus 15V regulator.  So, I put it on and OMG! 
Silly.   :roll:

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Our first off-topic topic :)
« Reply #10 on: 1 Sep 2013, 04:21 pm »
Silly.   :roll:

Agreed. Rich always has the final word though. There is no balance, just subjective drivel to the nth degree. And since WE don't have 30 years of tweaking our stance doesn't count. Yawn.

Do me a favor...visit your audiologist and get tested...it's important to know if you are even in the ballpark.

Sorry for the rant Morten, I'll stop now.

Anand.

sts9fan

Re: Our first off-topic topic :)
« Reply #11 on: 1 Sep 2013, 05:27 pm »
All a tweaker is is a person that does not know enough about electronics to design something but insists they do.  I myself don't know enough to design so I just trust the folks that do.