Help me understand the need for good Pre amplifier?

Kw6 · « **on:** 4 Jan 2022, 05:36 pm »

My main source is now streaming. so one source. My streamer has digital volume control. I fee I am mostly attenuating. As I am putting out over 2 volts. I am using a tube amp. Correct me if I am wrong. All I need is a great volume knob. No need for fancy preamps with over 25 db of gain.

JakeJ · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Jan 2022, 05:57 pm »

A passive/buffer may be what you are looking for. Perhaps start hunting for a Bent Audio (used only) or one of these https://goldpt.com/sa1.html.

If you are not able to get the loudness you desire then you may need some gain or look for an impedance mismatch between source and amp.

toocool4 · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Jan 2022, 06:00 pm »

All I can say is try it and see. I have not heard any source going directly into a power amp that sounds better than having a good pre-amp in between the source and power amp.

A friend of mine years ago has always believed in as little as possible in the signal path. I always said to him that he needed a good pre-amp in the mixed but never believed me.
When he was auditioning a new power amp, we took along his Nagra CDC.
We auditioned the power amp with the Nagra CDC connected directly into the power amp, with the Nagra CDC controlling the volume. Once we finish I ask the dealer to pop the Pre-amp in the mix, guess what my friend went home with a new pre-amp and power amp. He only went out for one thing but came home with two. He only has a single source the CD player, just like you with your single source.

musicdre · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Jan 2022, 06:20 pm »

try it both ways, if you can borrow a preamp. i have found that adding a preamp between the source and a volume controlled amp has always improved the sound. of course, different ears and different systems could produce different perceptions.

jmolsberg · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Jan 2022, 06:23 pm »

khozmo passive pre. touch base with arek and figure out impedance for source/amp and he will customize and works brilliantly!

mcmusicman · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Jan 2022, 07:46 pm »

I tried the DAC to Amp experiment when I was certain that purist digital was the only way to go. Tried it several ways.
Was missing so much; sound simply two dimensional and thin yet very accurate. Went with an inexpensive tube preamp....and immediately was impressed. For a while I thought the Preamp was a place to save money, I have now changed directions completely.

My current Preamp costs as much as my amp. OP has a tube amp, so his situation is not exactly like mine. For others, My suggestion is to borrow a quality preamp and listen for yourself. Experience is the best teacher and today I admit how wrong I was on this topic. For the record, the Preamp I use now is the EAR Yoshino 868 and it is sublime when paired with the 4B3. Cheers

Jan_Mc · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Jan 2022, 08:25 pm »

On my office system I use a Schiit Lyr 3 headphone amp as my pre. It sounds glorious. DAC straight to amp did NOT.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Jan 2022, 10:04 pm »

The volume control you are now using in your streamer ... Is it actual digital or analog? if pure digital reducing the volume digitally you will lose detail as it is lowered unless the stream is highly upsampled. cutting buts actually.
So I agree a good passive volume would be helpful leave the digital stramer at 100% volumeand use a separate volume control.

rotarius · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Jan 2022, 11:14 pm »

As others have said, try it and you will know instantly what preamp gain will do. I have fixed and variable outs on my streamer and everytime I remove the preamp my music goes flat, a bit 2D and loses some drive. This has been my experience with passive preamps as well going into an amp with less than 100k input impedance.

Kw6 · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Jan 2022, 04:38 pm »

Quote from: musicdre on 4 Jan 2022, 06:20 pm

try it both ways, if you can borrow a preamp. i have found that adding a preamp between the source and a volume controlled amp has always improved the sound. of course, different ears and different systems could produce different perceptions.

What pre amp did he get?

Kw6 · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Jan 2022, 04:41 pm »

Quote from: Elizabeth on 4 Jan 2022, 10:04 pm

The volume control you are now using in your streamer ... Is it actual digital or analog? if pure digital reducing the volume digitally you will lose detail as it is lowered unless the stream is highly upsampled. cutting buts actually.
So I agree a good passive volume would be helpful leave the digital stramer at 100% volumeand use a separate volume control.

I'm using 851N Cambridge streamer!

Chazz5 · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Jan 2022, 10:18 pm »

Quote from: Kw6 on 5 Jan 2022, 04:41 pm

I'm using 851N Cambridge streamer!

This explains how the 851N controls volume, with verbiage claiming it is the best way:

Quote

Keeping the signal digital to the last moment makes it less susceptible to analogue deterioration, while a 32-bit SHARC DSP controls the volume output; by keeping the entire signal digital the best possible sound is achieved, even at very low volume levels.

https://www.audiogeeks.com/audio-home/network-streamers/cambridge-audio-azur-851n-network-player/

rotarius · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Jan 2022, 10:50 pm »

Yeah, marketing bs. You can read up on digital volume controls and resolution yourself.

Kw6 · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Jan 2022, 07:07 am »

I was thinking of Icon Audio LA 4Mkiii! What you guys think?

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Jan 2022, 11:03 am »

I have exactly the opposite experience. Taking out my preamp and using only the volume control in my DAC opens up the soundstage to remarkable levels with detail galore. Reinserting the preamp everything goes back to veiled and flat. Granted, it may be my vintage pre, but everything except the DAC is vintage.

JLM · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Jan 2022, 11:41 am »

If trying a passive preamp care must be taken to match to the correct interconnects (low capacitance/impedence to avoid severely dampened high frequencies). With sufficient gain and a lossless volume control in a single source system there is no need for a preamp. Preamp primary function is as a switcher between sources. Many preamps, especially tube preamps just color the sound, resulting in everything sounding the same.

Kw6 · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Jan 2022, 05:51 pm »

Yes, I was thinking that too. All I need is a transparent volume control. I was wondering if Schiit Freya + would do the trick as they have three modes one being passive.

Kw6 · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Jan 2022, 05:52 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 6 Jan 2022, 11:41 am

If trying a passive preamp care must be taken to match to the correct interconnects (low capacitance/impedence to avoid severely dampened high frequencies). With sufficient gain and a lossless volume control in a single source system there is no need for a preamp. Preamp primary function is as a switcher between sources. Many preamps, especially tube preamps just color the sound, resulting in everything sounding the same.

Thanks for sharing your experience!☺️

JLM · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Jan 2022, 12:56 pm »

Tried the original Freya, in all modes, even with expensive NOS tubes. It did nothing for me (made no difference). Sent it back.

Photon46 · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Jan 2022, 01:33 pm »

On the other hand, many experienced audiophiles consider a good preamp to be essential. I think listeners focus on different aspects of musical reproduction and what one listener hears as "colored" another hears as "musical" and what one calls "accurate" another perceives as "sterile." Harbeth speakers tick all the boxes for some listeners and Martin Logans do it for others. There's no singular path to universally satisfying sound.