[Wayner]

CFLs with the screw base up tend to cook the solid state ballast and I would not recommend them for ceiling mount. Also, they are fluorescent and tend to be better utilized when left on for longer periods (like not a bathroom light that is turned on and off all the time), this will extend their life span, and better yet, if you can use them in a table lamp where the base is down.

Wayner

[Bob in St. Louis]

Bob, did you do anything with this yet?

[ctviggen]

If you mean me (Bob, ctviggen), I've purchased one LED light for a 6-inch recessed light.  I liked the light OK, so I'm going to try this and another in the kitchen (over the island) to see how they are, especially when dimmed.  If I like them there, I'll use them in the kitchen (a total of 5 or 7 lights).  They are $25/each at the local places like Home Cheapo and Lowe's.  That's still a long return on investment, but the kitchen lights are on a lot.  I can see the return there being not that long.  I may also use bulbs for the playroom, which I expect will be on a while during winter.  I still can't justify the cost for lights that are not on that much. 

I'll let you know what happens once I try the two above the island.  My wife is sensitive to light and can't stand CFLs.  I'll have to get this past her.

[Bob in St. Louis]

If you mean me (Bob, ctviggen),..........

Yes, I was talking to you. 
I checked the bulbs I need on Amazon, and they are like $6 a piece. Before you buy any more, check the equivalent online.

My wife is VERY prone to migraines, so she's hypersensitive to lighting and is worried about this "new thing" she's never experienced.
I think I've got her willing to give it a shot...(although we just got back from vacation and extra money for fancy light bulbs........bla bla bla....)

Bob

[randytsuch]

So I was thinking about trying these in my breakfast room.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart-BR30-9-Watt-65W-Soft-White-2700K-LED-Flood-Light-Bulb-4-Pack-ECS-BR30L-W27-65WE-120/204248977

There are replacing 65w incandescents.  BTW, they are in a dimmable circuit, which is why I haven't used CFL's here.

They end up saving me 61kw per year, and my electricity cost is $0.152 /kw hour.
So I calculated a savings of $9.32 a year, if used 3 hours per day.

This translates to a payback time of 1.43 years.

So if these put out enough light for you, the lower cost and lower energy use really shortens the payback time.

[Bob in St. Louis]

$50 for a light bulb!?!!?! 

How about something like >> THIS <<

[randytsuch]

$50 for a light bulb!?!!?! 

How about something like >> THIS <<

4 pack, $12.50+tax each with free shipping.  As long as you can use 4 seems like a good deal.

I also wonder about the quality of Feit bulbs? 
Without any real reason, I consider them to be lower quality stuff.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Ohhhhh I missed the fact it was a four pack. My bad. 

[randytsuch]

Ohhhhh I missed the fact it was a four pack. My bad. 

So you thought I would pay $50 for a light bulb? 

[srb]

I also wonder about the quality of Feit bulbs?  Without any real reason, I consider them to be lower quality stuff.

I've had some Feit CFLs that really cooked themselves turning the ballast housing yellow (base down upright installation in open air lamp) that seemed to fail sooner compared to some other CFL brands that lasted much longer, so I kind of have that impression too.

Steve

[Bob in St. Louis]

So you thought I would pay $50 for a light bulb? 

Well....."Yes". I did. 
I don't know you, so therefore, I didn't know your level of "dumbassity".
As it turns out, I showed my level instead. 

On a slightly related note:
I heard a story where a firefighter said that CFL's in "down" situations are a fire hazard. (glass down, ballast up)
He'd seen quite a few residential fires where CFL's in that configuration were the cause.
Take that with a grain of salt.

[Wayner]

I've had some Feit CFLs that really cooked themselves turning the ballast housing yellow (base down upright installation in open air lamp) that seemed to fail sooner compared to some other CFL brands that lasted much longer, so I kind of have that impression too.

Steve

Well....."Yes". I did. 
I don't know you, so therefore, I didn't know your level of "dumbassity".
As it turns out, I showed my level instead. 

On a slightly related note:
I heard a story where a firefighter said that CFL's in "down" situations are a fire hazard. (glass down, ballast up)
He'd seen quite a few residential fires where CFL's in that configuration were the cause.
Take that with a grain of salt.

I would have expected that with the base up, but not with the base down! Wow, how did they ever get the lamps UL listed, running that hot? I'm using Sylvania CFLs in a few table lamps around here (so they are base down) with success in terms of longevity, but I think that CFL type lamps, like all fluorescent lamps, need to not be turned on and off all the time, which I think in many cases, is exactly what is happening. Especially base up conditions are trouble some as the gases and heavy metals have collected on the down side of the tube, making it difficult for the ignighter to get the arc stream going. This is what kills most fluorescent ballasts. I suggest that the best applications for these lamps is base down, un-enclosed, and should be left on. The bathroom would be a perfect place not to put them (on and off all the time) as the life span will be greatly reduced. A general area lamp that is left on for hours just to kill the darkness, is really the place for these lamps.

I kind of am pissed at the lighting industry and government in general, as a good lighting solution for most homes and businesses is a select combination of lighting sources. Outlawing incandescent lamps (at least to me) is just plain silly. They have a place in the lighting scheme (like in the bathroom), and can take the abuse of turn on/turn off, and because they are usually not on for long periods of time, are not that expensive to operate.

While it's one thing to reduce your electric bill, it's counter productive to increase your  lamp cost, because of mis-applications for their intended use. This is where both government and industry have failed, because one size (or type) does not fit all applications, and in the long run, can be an unnecessary cost burden to the consumer.

Wayner

[Bob in St. Louis]

  Well that's twice I've had my head in my ass with this thread.   
Sorry. I meant "bases up, glass down".

[Wayner]

Relax. We knew what you meant. I've spent 30 years in the lighting biz, so I know all the big "fluff" terms. So, no one has their heads up their asses here.

 

[Bob in St. Louis]

Thanks Wayne. Nothing like a little humility to keep me grounded.
Besides, it's warm and cozy up there. I find it a comfortable and relaxing.

Bob

[randytsuch]

I got my HD bulbs last week, installed in my breakfast room and over the kitchen sink.

They seem fine, but they are brighter and whiter than the incandescents that they replaced.
I had been using 65 watt indoor floods.

I didn't replace all of the incandescents, for the 6 lights, I used 3 leds, 2 incandescent and one I left burned out.  The leds make it bright enough.


Randy

[ctviggen]

Quick update.  One part of the calculation that I did not anticipate is that we bought a house that's 15 years old.  All of the trim for the lights is yellow instead of white.  The recessed LED lights from some manufacturers have the trim installed. So, if you have to replace the trim anyway, the calculation changes a lot.  Here's a trim for instance:

http://www.amazon.com/Halo-Recessed-310WG-6-Inch-Oversize/dp/B0039PZUAI/ref=sr_1_5?s=lamps-light&ie=UTF8&qid=1378066254&sr=1-5&keywords=6+inch+recessed+light+trim

This is similar to what's installed in our house.  If you are already going to replace the trim, that's basically $13 you're saving by buying an LED light with trim.  That makes the prices of these:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart-6-in-9-5-Watt-65W-Soft-White-2700K-LED-Downlight-E-ECO-575L/202240932#.UiOfUD_mtJQ

Go from $25/light to $12/light (effectively).  I just bought 14 of these because of this calculation.  Now, I hope the LED trims last longer than 15 years, or I might be replacing them before the LEDs are done.

[ctviggen]

For our situation, where all the trims look yellow and terrible, as long as those lights stay $25/light, I'm going to replace the light + trim with LED recessed light with integrated trim, as the cost isn't much more.   One caveat is that these particular LED lights, even though they're 65 watt replacements, are brighter than the 65 watt incandescents we replaced.  We have three recessed lights in a hallway, and we've been leaving these lights on until our children get to sleep.  Thus, they were candidates for replacement even before I realized the trim scenario, as the lights could be on 3+ hours every day.  However, with the new LED lights, they're too bright and now we need a dimmer there.   I'll install a dimmer today.  The dimmers I bought specifically list LED compatibility.   

However, we have two different (already-installed) dimmers and the LED lights work well with them.  I can't tell much of a color temperature change with dimming, but I haven't done a lot of dimming either.   These lights are in the kitchen, where we don't do much dimming.

I also bought two 75 watt replacement regular bulbs for our children's playroom.  These LED lights use 17 watts. These were more expensive, $30/each.  These are them, although they are $20/bulb more expensive at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-418590-17-Watt-Household-Dimmable/dp/B006OTAE8Y/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_3

I figure the kids' playroom will have the lights on so much that these will pay for themselves within a year or so.  I replaced one 72 watt light that supposedly produces 100W worth of light (1490 lumens) and one three-way light.   The LED lights supposedly produce around 1100 lumens.  I had a hard time telling the difference in light output, but I had to turn on the light, turn off the light, replace with LED and turn on the light again.  It's hard to make a comparison that way.  We have two similar lamps from Ikea for this room, but the shades are slightly different colors (one's whiter, one's more yellow), so the two LED bulbs produce different looking light even though the bulbs are exactly the same.  So, I can't do a direct comparison between LED and incandescent. 

Speaking of that, I didn't know shades made such a difference.  My wife bought two new lamps for the bedroom, and the shades look white while the lamp is off.  While the lamp is on, however, the shades look yellow and block a lot of light, relative to a whiter shade we have.  Unfortunately, the whiter shade doesn't fit these lamps, so my wife is going to take the lamps back (or have to buy new shades, as the current shades block too much light on the sides).

[Wayner]

LEDs will not have much of a color shift in the dimming mode, unlike incandescent which can go from a warm to really, really warm at the bottom end of the dimming mode. I have wall sconces in the great room and can dim the incandescents down to almost a fire-glow. While in this position, you can see where things are, but that is about it. Great for movie or sports watching at night.

LEDs, like all lamps, should be packaged with a Kelvin temperature rating. Low numbers (like 2500-2700) will be warm, middle numbers (around 4000) will be more "white", while the higher numbers will produce an almost bluish effect (like the old Mercury Vapor lamps).

If you want your LED and incandescent lamps to match, you're going to have to do some homework (and guessing). If you buy LEDs and incandescent at 2700° C and not dim the incandescent, you should be OK. If you dim the incandescent, the Kelvin numbers will drop downward. To make your LEDs match, you would then need to have RGB (RED/GREEN/BLUE) type LEDs that are run by controllers to set the color rendering (example: red@55%, green@30%, blue@15%), to get the LEDs to match where you set the dimming for the incandescent. In otherwords, it will get very complicated and expensive.

Moral of the story goes back to the KISS theory (keep it simple, stupid) (no offense here), and not mix LED with incandescent at the same time.

Again, lighting anywhere, even the home, should be done by tasks. If your cleaning or fixing, you want everything on, full power Scotty. If someone is reading, then they need a local "task" lamp to illuminate the book pages, but not the entire room. If you're listening to music, having a cocktail or two, you might want the room fairly warm and subdued, low level. You may want a "task" lamp over your equipment so that you can see better to change a record or CD (or whatever), but that lamp switched off when not in use. And because it's switched on and off lots of times, it needs to be incandescent or LED, not a CFL, low power (like a small R20) or something like that, with no dimmer.

Wayner

[randytsuch]

One more, probably last update with LED lights.

The ones I installed are working well, hopefully they will last a long time.
Color is not as warm as incandescents, but are fine for where we are using them.

One thing is they don't dim down as much as incandescents.  Some LEDs are installed next to my TV, and I used to dim them down almost all the way when we watch a movie at night.

Now, I need to turn off the set with LED's, they won't go dim enough.

Randy