[Ned F. Kuehn]

I have been experimenting with a number of S/PDIF cables. The BDP-1 digital out is to a Classe SSP-800. The SSP-800 only has RCA digital in (no balanced or BNC digital input - which is a shame). However, I have found that a BNC cable should be used with a BNC to RCA adapter at the input to the SSP-800. A BNC to RCA adapter at the output of the BDP-1 does not have the same high level of performance as the other configuration.

So I will share what I found. RCA terminated digital cables do not perform to nearly the same level as BNC terminated cables. RCA terminated Tara Labs One, Kimber Illuminations D-60 and Nordost Valhalla were disappointing compared to any BNC terminated cable, although I preferred the Valhalla and the D60 over the One by a wide margin. BNC terminated Emperical Design ED 118 had great pace and timing, but there was more of everything when using the the BNC terminated Nordost Silver Shadow. So for the past many months I left the Silver Shadow in place and enjoyed the BDP-1. My entire front end of my surround/music system is wired with Nordost Valhalla cabling. Recently I started thinking about the RCA terminated Vallhala digital cable that cost a bloody fortune and was laying around not earning its keep. Nordost asks a fair sum for re-termination ($100 per end), so I ordered a pair of Furtech Rhodium BNC plugs for a bit under $50 and re- terminated the Valhalla using Cardas solder. Switching out the Silver Shadow for the newly BNC terminated Valhalla was a stunning transformation. It seems as though my entire digital listening experience has been thrown into a new light. This cable has opened the sound stage with powerful low end impact, detail, and timing - a real revelation and testimony to just the awesome performance of the BDP-1!

In summary, the digital cable used does make a difference and the BDP-1 is device that demands the best (boy can you hear the differences). If your DAC only has RCA digital inputs, it seems as though you are obligated to use a BNC terminated digital cable (both ends) and perhaps best to use a BNC to RCA adapter at the DAC input and not at the BDP-1 output. I have Empirical Design ED-118 digital cables terminated with BNC-BNC and BNC-RCA and really felt the BNC-BNC cable sounded better than the BNC-RCA even though I needed to use a BNC-RCA adapter at the digital input to the SSP-800. Happy listening and gosh this BDP-1 is one killer product.
Ned

[srb]

The best cable to use for that situation is a cable terminated with a BNC on one end and an RCA on the other.  Adapters can only make things worse, never better.
 
Steve

[Letitroll98]

You don't say how long your cables are, are they over 6' and/or have you tried 6' and over digital cables?  Have you tried an attenuator in place of the BNC adapter?

[Rclark]

Can I ask what you mean by pace and timing? Are you saying you think some of your cables play the music faster and some slower? By timing, do you mean you think they affect the instrument mix somehow? Drums are now timing well with the guitars, etc, that sort of thing?

[Ned F. Kuehn]

The best cable to use for that situation is a cable terminated with a BNC on one end and an RCA on the other.  Adapters can only make things worse, never better.
 
Steve

Not from what I found with my particular system. I have no explanation.
Ned

[Ned F. Kuehn]

You don't say how long your cables are, are they over 6' and/or have you tried 6' and over digital cables?  Have you tried an attenuator in place of the BNC adapter?

All cables are 1 meter. I have not tried an attenuator in place of the BNC adapter.

[Ned F. Kuehn]

Can I ask what you mean by pace and timing? Are you saying you think some of your cables play the music faster and some slower? By timing, do you mean you think they affect the instrument mix somehow? Drums are now timing well with the guitars, etc, that sort of thing?

It is the space between the notes. Better cables I suspect are less likely to introduce timing errors (jitter).

[srb]

The best cable to use for that situation is a cable terminated with a BNC on one end and an RCA on the other.  Adapters can only make things worse, never better.

Not from what I found with my particular system. I have no explanation.

I suppose the difference might be in the selection of an RCA plug.  If a plug like the Canare RCAP or similar is used, which crimps to the coax center conductor and shield, it would alter the coax geometry less than using a plug like a Furutech or WBT (although high quality), that would require the shield to be unbraided and attached to the side of the ground shell which would alter the coax cable's conductor to shield spacing.
 
Terminating the cable to a coaxial BNC connector which is then plugged into a BNC to RCA adapter likely better preserves the conductor spacing in the same way to get closer to the 75 ohm impedance goal.
 
Steve

[setamp]

I experienced something interesting this weekend.  I tried an xlr cable from WyWires that sounded great between my BDP-1 and EE Minimax Dac.  The WyWire xlr would not allow me to play 192 files, however as I heard nothing but skipping.  I went back to my Downsize rca with bnc adaptor and it played 192 with no problem but didn't sound as good on lower-sampled files.  After a-b'ing the xlr and rca/bnc cables I unplugged the Downsize cable.  The surprising thing is my WyWires xlr cable sounded better when the Downsize cable was also attached.  I prefer the WyWires xlr to the Downsize rca/bnc but like the WyWires xlr even better with the Downsize cable attached.  Go figure.

[Rclark]

It is the space between the notes. Better cables I suspect are less likely to introduce timing errors (jitter).

Ok so by "pace and timing" ... You are just saying you think some cables improve jitter?

[Ned F. Kuehn]

Ok so by "pace and timing" ... You are just saying you think some cables improve jitter?

No. Lesser cables induce jitter. Any mismatch between the BDP-1 S/PDIF digital output impedence, the cable's inherent impedence, and the digital processor input impedance will introduce reflections in the signal cable introducing jitter in the datastream. One needs to experiment with cables to find ones that minimize any impedence mismatch.
Ned

[RichardS]

I find Ned's experiments interesting, but the results somewhat differing from mine (I suppose due to differences in systems, priorities, etc.). Since I use no analog interconnects in my (modded) Tact system, and several digitals, I've experimented extensively along similar lines. I have two RWA-modded Olive transports (battery) that use a BNC out, and my Tact digital pre uses RCA (or AES/EBU) in. My Northstar transport definitely prefers the AES/EBU.

I tried using adapters on both ends with a number of RCA cables on the Olive, but found that with my equipment, and to my tastes, I got better results across the board by avoiding the adapters and using a cable that was terminated with BNC on the source end and RCA at the pre. For example, IMS, the Stereovox cable w/ adapter sounded nicely detailed but thin. An Analysis Plus w/ BNC at source end was better/ more fleshed out, but not as detailed. Tried several more and the Tara One ISM was the best of many cables I tried. The details of the Stereovox with the body of the AP, an exhilarating liveliness, and then some. Interesting to me that you didn't like it in your system.

The best I've used overall, though, even better IMS than the Marigo 5.8 and Stealth Sextet, is the Harmonic Tech Photon, with latest battery supply, but I only have these in RCA and AES/EBU terminations. These go between my Tact pre and amp, and between my Genesis Lens and pre when it's used. Clear, open, detailed, present, airy, transparent... just lovely. But from the BNC'd source, the Tara One is still better than using the adapter with the Photon at the amp end. The adapter seems to lessen the body and presence.
Maybe I should try another adapter. Ned, what adapters were you using?

[HAITIMAN]

No. Lesser cables induce jitter. Any mismatch between the BDP-1 S/PDIF digital output impedence, the cable's inherent impedence, and the digital processor input impedance will introduce reflections in the signal cable introducing jitter in the datastream. One needs to experiment with cables to find ones that minimize any impedence mismatch.
Ned

Ned, yours is a textbook case of the "Placebo Effect". You want, and I do mean want those connectors to make a "huge" difference.....and, therefore, they do....for you. It's a nice idea, however, it doesn't make any rational sense.

[SHV]

My rational for thinking that digital cable for audio is not an issue is to compare it to digital video.  Bit rates for audio are hundreds of kilo bits/sec and video is mega bits/sec.  If there are cable "issues" with video transmission, the effects aren't subtle.  I would imagine that with the low bit rates for audio, cable issues would be very uncommon and if they did happen, the effect would be very evident and not related to "better" base, sound stage, etc.

Steve

[werd]

Ned, yours is a textbook case of the "Placebo Effect". You want, and I do mean want those connectors to make a "huge" difference.....and, therefore, they do....for you. It's a nice idea, however, it doesn't make any rational sense.

No its not. Ned is demonstrating a "textbook" response that comes from using high resolution,tranparent downstream gear, partnered with his long term listening experiences in front of his own system.

Its that time spent listening to his own gear that will shed away any "placebo effect".

Its also his gear that allows him to hear his front end.

If one of these two conditions are not present then you will not hear your front end. This includes cabling in rca/balance or power cables as part of your front end.

[HAITIMAN]

No its not. Ned is demonstrating a "textbook" response that comes from using high resolution,tranparent downstream gear, partnered with his long term listening experiences in front of his own system.

Its that time spent listening to his own gear that will shed away any "placebo effect".

Its also his gear that allows him to hear his front end.

If one of these two conditions are not present then you will not hear your front end. This includes cabling in rca/balance or power cables as part of your front end.

Yes, it is.

[werd]

Yes, it is.

I gotta receiver i gotta a hobby.

[Elizabeth]

Even teh same sort of cable at different lengths, or possibly different 'chance' connection quality may make a difference.
The idea that it has to be 'more expensive' to be better is hilarious imo.
So keep up the good work...

[Rclark]

No. Lesser cables induce jitter. Any mismatch between the BDP-1 S/PDIF digital output impedence, the cable's inherent impedence, and the digital processor input impedance will introduce reflections in the signal cable introducing jitter in the datastream. One needs to experiment with cables to find ones that minimize any impedence mismatch.
Ned

Ok, you can see how baffled I was by that terminology of pace and timing. I think, "induces less jitter" is is much more clear.

 thank you.

[Ned F. Kuehn]

My rational for thinking that digital cable for audio is not an issue is to compare it to digital video.  Bit rates for audio are hundreds of kilo bits/sec and video is mega bits/sec.  If there are cable "issues" with video transmission, the effects aren't subtle.  I would imagine that with the low bit rates for audio, cable issues would be very uncommon and if they did happen, the effect would be very evident and not related to "better" base, sound stage, etc.

Steve

So I get beat up? The S/PDIF interface is rather flawed as the audio data is carried along with the clock data (not the case with I2S). If there is impedence mismatching timing errors (jitter) will be introduced. There is a audible softening of bass with timing errors. So if a cable with its connectors cannot maintain a true 75 ohm impedence (110 ohm balanced) timing errors will likely be introduced by the cable. My intent on sharing my findings was that I was not prepared for the result once I found an ideal cable match for my particular system. I changed nothing else in my system when spending a lot of time to evaluate all of the digital cables I own and all cables were of similar length (1 meter). The BDP-1 is a product of high pedigree and once the right cable was found for my particular system I was rather surprised to find how everything locked into focus and clarity I not heard previously.