New Alarm system

randytsuch · « **on:** 2 Mar 2016, 11:10 pm »

I'm looking at upgrading my alarm system.

The one I have is from ADT, installed in 2009. It works, but is "old fashioned" compared to what is available now.

Spend the last few days doing some research, looking at both service providers, and the guys who make the underlying hardware.
GE (now Interlogix), Honeywell, DSC and Qolsys are manufacturers. Qolsys is a new player, they have financial backing from DSC, and look to have an interesting product, based on an android tablet. The GE Simon line also appears to be popular.

The newer systems include zwave and can do home automation. So you can get security and home automation in one package. The better ones have app support, so you can do everything from your phone.

And they can contact the alarm company over cell, wifi or hardline. Cell seems like the best option, you don't have to worry about someone cutting your landline or power to disable your alarm.

So ADT is trying to keep me with a free upgrade to their Pulse system, and a discounted monthly payment for this service.

I'm also considering a system based on the Qolsys IQ using Live Watch or Frontpoint as the provider. I dont think I want video, but I do want everything else. If I went this route, I would do the install myself. I'd make use of the wired door and window sensors I already have, they make adapters that read wired sensors, and connect to a wireless controller.

I plan to add a pet friendly motion sensor or two, and some glass break sensors.

Wondering if anyone else has any recent experience with alarms.

Randy

stonedeaf · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 Mar 2016, 05:39 am »

Take a look at the Elk product -their biggest advantage is they accept wireless products from several of the different systems you've mentioned ,Z wave ,etc.. Especially with wireless nobody makes every type of sensor "the best" -so being able to incorporate sensors from multiple companies onto the same system is pretty handy. Elk's own wireless is two way - IOW the panel's transceiver sends a acknowledgment back to the transmitter-sensor.They also offer a smoke detector that will trip all smokes if one is tripped - just like a wired smoke detector does/should.

JLM · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Mar 2016, 11:49 am »

We have a traditional security/smoke alarm system from a local provider that we converted to wireless a few years back so we could dump the land based telephone line. Wifey had been broken into, so was a perquisite when we built out in the country. IMO it's a PITA. Every alarm has been false or a nuisance. Have had police show up numerous times. Family can't remember the secret code, so all calls come to my cell. The alarm is loud as hell. Notifications come either when I'm at home and know what's happening (like walking thru the garage man door when I get home before entering the house to disarm the alarm, dropped dish, or burnt teenage cooking creation), or I'm 100 miles away and how am I supposed to answer (yeah send the fire department, or not)? We get calls to tell us that we've lost power (after the alarm has started beeping to tell us and we're scrambling around in the dark for flashlights).

Even the better (smarter/never wear out/uses one central battery) commercial grade smoke detectors were a pain because the local electrical inspector required the typical residential battery/hardwired detectors, so we ended up with 19 detectors! The first time the residential one went off from burnt toast I yanked the batteries out and someday will pay someone to pull the bases out and patch the drywall and repaint in 9 places.

C17FXR · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Mar 2016, 12:27 pm »

You should also look into the 2Gig system. Several companies use this particular system with their name branded on the side of the box.
It has everything you've mentioned and even the option to DIY if you're so inclined. I would have to look up who does the monitoring when you DIY.
My mother-n-law had it installed a few months back while I was refurbishing her house and it works rather well, I'm thinking of putting one in my house.
Thing was a pain though while painting and replacing molding around the windows and doors though, it was able to detect the sensors being moved.
Had to call the alarm company on several occasions to let them know I was working on the house.
The system is even smart enough to know when you have left the house.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Mar 2016, 01:15 pm »

Hey, for security I have these:

Oh wait, never mind, just take what you want and close the door when you leave so they don't get out

coke · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Mar 2016, 03:21 pm »

I'm using the ADT pulse system and don't really have any complaints. I like being able to pull up my cameras and overview of the system at anytime on my phone. I also receive texts when the cameras detect motion or anything else trips. Just be sure to read the ADT contract carefully, because they'll most likely try to lock you in to a multi year contract with a penalty for leaving early.

randytsuch · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Mar 2016, 03:53 pm »

Thanks for the input guys

We have one smoke detector right now connected to the alarm, it hasn't been a problem (knock on wood).

I did forget to mention one thing to be careful for, "crash and smash".

If you have a wireless unit where the controller and panel are combined in one unit, a burglar can break down your front door, and then smash your alarm during the delay time, they can defeat the alarm, and it won't trip. Alarms have a delay between when you come in the main door, and when they go off, to give you time to enter your code.

With older alarms (like mine), the keypad panel is separate from the controller (brains), so even if they break the keypad the alarm will still go off. With the newer wireless units, the input and controller is in the same unit, so if they break it before it sends the alarm signal then they have defeated your system.

Some alarms companies have smash and crash protection, where the control unit needs to send a signal within a minute of when the front door opens. If it doesn't, the monitor company is supposed to send the police.

Another way to get around this is to have a separate keypad by the entry, and hide your main controller unit so the bad guy can't find it in time to defeat the system.

I'll take a look at the 2g and elk systems, thanks for the tips.

BTW, I have a guard dog too, 10 pounds of vicious poodle.

Randy

C17FXR · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Mar 2016, 08:55 pm »

Quote from: randytsuch on 3 Mar 2016, 03:53 pm

I did forget to mention one thing to be careful for, "crash and smash".

If you have a wireless unit where the controller and panel are combined in one unit, a burglar can break down your front door, and then smash your alarm during the delay time, they can defeat the alarm, and it won't trip. Alarms have a delay between when you come in the main door, and when they go off, to give you time to enter your code.

Something I forgot to mention with the 2Gig is the tamper sensor.
If the unit gets moved it automatically sends a signal for a break in, had to call and inform them I was moving it to paint behind the unit.

Good thing I remembered the code.

randytsuch · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Mar 2016, 04:18 pm »

As with many of my projects, I'm changing directions, kind of.

Instead of replacing my system, I've found a couple ways to "upgrade" it, to give it a more modern feel.

And my system had been pretty reliable, so I don't feel a need to replace it for that reason.

My existing system is installed by ADT, but I figured out it is really a rebadged Honeywell Vista 20-P controller.

One way to upgrade it is to buy a VAM https://www.alarmgrid.com/products/honeywell-vam.
This would add wifi and home automation. But I would also need to buy a gsm module if I wanted full, offsite remote control, and the costs were adding up. I would also need to change services, the alarmgrid would do it for a little less than ADT, so that was no biggie. It was the upfront cost that I didn't like.

Then, I found something called ad2pi.
http://www.alarmdecoder.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/33
This guy will allow a raspberry pi, or an arduino or a beaglebone black to interface with my 20-P alarm system. It makes the pi look like another one of my keypad display units.

I already have a pi and an arduino mega that I'm not actively using.

And there are a bunch of guys who have projects where they integrated this with a smartthing setup. The smartthing gives you a iphone or android app and the offsite control.

You need to get a smartthing hub, and the smartthing arduino shield.
It will cost me a little over $200 for this setup. If you needed an arduino mega, seems like you can get them pretty cheap these days, $10-15 on epay.

The honeywell vam setup would have cost almost $360. There would be a little setup involved, to connect the vam and gsm module, but it would have been fairly simple to implement.

But the smartthing solution gets me a smartthing too, which seems to have a lot of capability. There appears to be a very active owner group that have implemented a lot of cool uses for the smartthing. And they share the software and projects, to help others copy them.

I also found a smarthing/arduino project that implements a garage door sensor and opener closer with a $7 dual relay and a $7 magnetic sensor. For two doors, you need one relay and two sensors. BTW, before I found this, I was figuring I needed a zwave garage door relay, which would cost $40. And I think that only does one door. And the cost of the sensors added to that.

The two things I want are remote control and notification for my alarm system, and remote sensing/control of my garage door, so once I implement this I will get both of them, for a pretty reasonable cost.

Here is the github link, with detailed instructions, for adding integrating the ad2pi, arduino mega and smartthings hub, with an smartthings iphone app.
https://github.com/d8adrvn/AD2SmartThings

Randy

gregfisk · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Mar 2016, 07:21 pm »

I've owned an alarm company in the Seattle area for 32 years now so I'm very familiar with the business and most of the product out there. I already explained to JLM that almost all of the problems he is having are easy to resolve. The central station will do whatever you want them to do when they get any kind of signal and you can shut off the AC power outage beeping from the keypad in programming.

One thing I think people need to realize is home automation and alarm systems are really two different animals. The only reason the big alarm companies are combining them is to increase their reoccurring revenue. For instance, the Honeywell thermostats that are used with your Vista 20P are the same ones you can buy and use completely independently from your alarm system. Almost all of the devices such as cameras, lighting and so on can be used on there own and don't need to be run with the alarm.
It may seem strange that I discourage this all in one approach since the monthly monitoring is how I make my living. The truth is why pay your alarm company an additional monthly fee when you can do the same thing for free? Yes, you have to use more than one app so it isn't bundled but I don't think that's worth paying an additional monthly fee for. By the way the Vista 20P is a very good panel, the other one we use is the GE Interlogix NX-8 with the NX-148 keypad which is my favorite panel and the one I have in my homes and office.

Cellular is the best way to go for monitoring with a land line being second. After that you have Comcast which drops out all the time and internet monitoring is also unreliable. We take over a couple of ADT accounts a week because people are so fed up with them and our rates are usually half what they charge. And they do lock you into a 36 month agreement and then raise your rates. the good thing is once that contract is up you can move to a different company, use the same equipment and save on the monitoring fees.

ctviggen · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Mar 2016, 07:28 pm »

Thanks for that information, gregfisk. That was great info. For home automation, I've been using Insteon, and now the Amazon Echo has integration with Insteon and my Universal Devices ISY controller. So, now I can say "Alexa, turn off the living room lamp", and it get done. Of course, it's only a matter of time before i get hacked and someone turns on and off my lights randomly.

JLM · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Mar 2016, 08:33 pm »

What can I say? Slow learner. I don't write down most of my gripes and my local provider has changed answering services 3 times in the past 5 years. Just feels like it's me versus the family, answering service, and the security system. At least the service is relatively cheap.

Our last power outage was long enough to completely drain the battery before I could figure out why it was bleating for it's last hour of life. Feels like a set up, but the only place in town that sells the sealed acid battery is Radio Shack, which is owned by the same family that owns our security service. So next outage, I'll unplug the battery while wifey wants to go into girl scout mode and light oil lamps.

Guess I'll continue to put up with the gripes. The alternative would seem to be to turn off all the remote monitoring and lose the point of the system.

randytsuch · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Mar 2016, 08:39 pm »

Hi Greg
Always nice to get an "expert" opinion.

While some of the systems I looked at were integrated alarm/automation systems, what I'm trying to do know is aimed at being an alarm system and a HA system that can talk to each other.

The Smartthing is the HA system, and I'm keeping my current alarm system, nice to know the 20p is a good panel

Lights and outlets, thermostat, water leak sensors, even cameras if I add one, will be connected to smartthing. My new garage door sensor/opener will also be on the smartthing.

The alarm system stays as it is, with the hardwired door and window sensors I have, and with the two keypad/display panels. We have one by the front door, and one in the master br.

I'll use ad2pi to let the alarm talk to the smartthing. The alarm will think ad2pi is another keypad/display.
On the smartthing side, I will be able to tell what windows and doors are open, if the alarm is armed or disarmed, if it has been triggered, etc. I want to do things like turn on the front hallway lights when the front door is open, after dark.

And with smartthings, I'll be able to make an app on my phone that can arm/disarm the alarm, and get status. The alarm will thing someone is pushing buttons, that is what the ad2pi adds to this.

I did look at the combined systems, but had concerns about a combined alarm/ha system, figuring jack of all trades, master of none kind of thing. And I need to make sure the alarm part is solid.

Randy

gregfisk · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Mar 2016, 09:11 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 4 Mar 2016, 08:33 pm

What can I say? Slow learner. I don't write down most of my gripes and my local provider has changed answering services 3 times in the past 5 years. Just feels like it's me versus the family, answering service, and the security system. At least the service is relatively cheap.

Our last power outage was long enough to completely drain the battery before I could figure out why it was bleating for it's last hour of life. Feels like a set up, but the only place in town that sells the sealed acid battery is Radio Shack, which is owned by the same family that owns our security service. So next outage, I'll unplug the battery while wifey wants to go into girl scout mode and light oil lamps.

Guess I'll continue to put up with the gripes. The alternative would seem to be to turn off all the remote monitoring and lose the point of the system.

JLM.

Unplugging the battery when the power goes out is a good idea. The batteries for the alarm panel can be had on line for about $15.00 and that's a 12v-7ah hour so a good size, and that price is shipped. That's pretty much what I pay for them so that's the place to get them. Your'e correct, Radioshack or if you have a Budget Battery you can get them there also.

gregfisk · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 Mar 2016, 10:11 pm »

Quote from: randytsuch on 4 Mar 2016, 08:39 pm

Hi Greg
Always nice to get an "expert" opinion.

While some of the systems I looked at were integrated alarm/automation systems, what I'm trying to do know is aimed at being an alarm system and a HA system that can talk to each other.

The Smartthing is the HA system, and I'm keeping my current alarm system, nice to know the 20p is a good panel

Lights and outlets, thermostat, water leak sensors, even cameras if I add one, will be connected to smartthing. My new garage door sensor/opener will also be on the smartthing.

The alarm system stays as it is, with the hardwired door and window sensors I have, and with the two keypad/display panels. We have one by the front door, and one in the master br.

I'll use ad2pi to let the alarm talk to the smartthing. The alarm will think ad2pi is another keypad/display.
On the smartthing side, I will be able to tell what windows and doors are open, if the alarm is armed or disarmed, if it has been triggered, etc. I want to do things like turn on the front hallway lights when the front door is open, after dark.

And with smartthings, I'll be able to make an app on my phone that can arm/disarm the alarm, and get status. The alarm will thing someone is pushing buttons, that is what the ad2pi adds to this.

I did look at the combined systems, but had concerns about a combined alarm/ha system, figuring jack of all trades, master of none kind of thing. And I need to make sure the alarm part is solid.

Randy

Well Randy, it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on what you are doing. That should work fine and it's good to have the ability to arm/disarm the system with your smartphone. I use a service called interactive services which is what we offer our clients. It has an app that allows you to arm/disarm and get notifications when the system is activated or turned off and also when an alarm occurs and what it is that tripped. For you to be able to do that without paying an additional fee to your alarm company is great. I actually don't know anyone that has done that before so would like to know how it works for you.

I have my house I live in set up so with a key fob I can arm/disarm, unlock and open the front door and turn on all the lights as I walk up to the house. Very convenient and I set it up about 15 years ago when those kind of options weren't around back then.

Albert Von Schweikert · « **Reply #15 on:** 5 Mar 2016, 02:49 am »

I just bought a vacation house in the mountains and need an alarm system. ADT came out and gave me a quote, but the tech, who seemed very honest, told me that the response time for the police to arrive was around 30-45 minutes as they are 26 miles away. By the time the police arrive, the thieves will have been able to load up my hideously expensive home theater system ($150,000 +) and be long gone. Most of the value is tied up in the speakers and electronics, all very easy to disconnect and load in a van.

I thanked the tech and decided to conduct some research. Having video cameras might help IF the person has mug shots on file at the PD, but that is not a great solution - I want to prevent the thieves from attempting to smash up my home if they are brave enough to ignore the alarm signs I will put up around the perimeter of the large, secluded property.

I remember reading about a "sonic canon" and wonder if any readers of this forum have experience with this device. Basically, it is a type of specialized siren that puts out such a high level of noise that it can literally damage your ears and body. Reportedly, a few seconds after this siren goes off, the thief would attempt to block the sound by covering his ears while running out of the building. Attempting to stay in the building more than a few seconds will result in pain and nausea. More than 10 seconds of exposure will result in a painful migraine headache and temporary deafness, along with vertigo. Installing four of these sirens inside the ceiling would prevent an intruder from attempting to find and deactivate them. The system would be battery operated so cutting the power would not shut off the system. I plan on installing sensors on all doors and windows. The control panel would turn off the sirens in 30 seconds and rearm it. A remote fob would enable me to shut off the system when I come and go.

Does anyone here see a potential flaw with this plan, and would there be a better way to keep intruders from entering get the residence? I was quoted $1,800 for the equipment and installation. Monitoring fee is $30 per month with no long term contract if it seems worthwhile in the light of the extremely long response time. Any opinions or alternate suggestions?

TomS · « **Reply #16 on:** 5 Mar 2016, 03:00 am »

Albert,

I think the biggest risk is setting it off yourself or by a family member (e.g. friendlies). This is the most common event with my own systems and just the siren itself is painful. Or, the thief decides to sue you for damage

gregfisk · « **Reply #17 on:** 5 Mar 2016, 04:06 am »

Hi Albert,

I will be happy to give you some thoughts on this either late tonight or tomorrow, I'm heading out to a dinner party. I agree that the sonic cannon is not a good idea, most alarms are caused by user error. I have much more to add but need to run.

Take Care,

Greg

ctviggen · « **Reply #18 on:** 5 Mar 2016, 11:29 am »

Quote from: TomS on 5 Mar 2016, 03:00 am

Albert,

I think the biggest risk is setting it off yourself or by a family member (e.g. friendlies). This is the most common event with my own systems and just the siren itself is painful. Or, the thief decides to sue you for damage

My first home had an alarm system, and the only person ever to set it off was me. And I set it off multiple times. The last two houses haven't had an alarm system, although the current house is wired for one. This house, though, has an in law suite and my wife is home all they time or in and out so many times during the day. I'm not sure a system would be good or a pain, although I am looking into reviving the system.

jea48 · « **Reply #19 on:** 5 Mar 2016, 04:30 pm »

randytsuch,

You might want to check out an HAI security system.
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=60577

I had the HAI installed in our new house I had built in 2007.
Security, fire alarm, and home automation.
It is programed to turn on the soffit can lights around the outside of the house at 1/2 hour after dusk and turns them off at about 1/2 hour before dawn. You can also program the light wattage/brilliance % you want. Example, Have the lights come on at 80% of full brilliance and at midnight reduce the lights to 60%.
(The user has total control to override the system by the wall dimming switches for the lights.)

In the event of a security alarm being set off or a smoke head or heat head alarm condition the outside soffit lights turn off and on repeatedly day or night to alert nearby neighbors, the police department, and fire department so as to easily see the house as they arrive.

All kinds of other things the system can do if the user so chooses.

Something else I like when entering from the attached garages to mudroom area when we open the door from the garage the ceiling entry light automatically turns on and turns back off after 10 minutes.