AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Spatial Audio on 8 Sep 2022, 12:08 am
-
September 07 2022 - Today, we are announcing the introduction of a new premium level M4, known as M4 Ultra. This is a new, no compromise M4 with Beyma mid/woofers from the X4 and a new silk dome tweeter from Beyma (Spain). The 3 inch thick, 80 lb structure is modeled after the X4 to provide world-class bass performance and high rigidity. The machined aluminum support base completes the structure.
The Beyma silk dome tweeter replaces the Sapphire tweeter, which is no longer available. The Beyma unit has a wide frequency range and linear response like the Sapphire M100 tweeter. Crossover point is 800Hz. Factory direct price is $4950 pr. For more information, see our website: www.spatialaudiolab.com
Cheers,
Clayton
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=244638)
-
Clayton… best of luck with the M4 Ultra… presumably the M3 Sapphire will be resurrected in an updated format as well.
Question: does the new tweeter have wide dispersion similar to the Sapphire tweeter?
-
Clayton… best of luck with the M4 Ultra… presumably the M3 Sapphire will be resurrected in an updated format as well.
Question: does the new tweeter have wide dispersion similar to the Sapphire tweeter?
Thanks Ron,
The radiation pattern is a little narrower (90 deg @4kHz) and very even because the faceplate is a Controlled Directivity (CD) lens.
Clayton
-
I have a few questions about the new speakers.
Are crossover part of the same quality as the X4?
I the baffle construction like the X series?
-
Clayton, thanks for the quick response. As you can already see, there will be a lot of questions about the updated M series. As you know from my posts, I have the M3 Sapphires...they are really, really great sounding speakers...I have three relatively simple questions:
1. Ron from New Record Day described the Sapphire tweeter as marching up to the point of being edgy..without going over. I agree, the level of detail without fatigue is excellent. Does the silk tweeter march as close to the edge...or is it a hair further back...or even further?
2. This next question is about the low end...not the quality of the bass but the quantity. The Sapphire's 15" drivers put out a lot of bass (bass quantity), does the M4 Ultra Beyma 12" woofer put out as much bass as the 15" M3 Sapphire woofer?
3. Does the new M4 Ultra retain an outboard crossover box mounted to the aluminum base?
Thanks again Clayton...I think the more clarity you can provide regarding the updated M's, the more new orders are going to be flooding in!
-
Clayton,
What happens to the M3's in the field if their tweets fail/damaged? Is the Beyma a direct replacement? X-over mod's necessary? OR, do you anticipate the peerless unit coming back on line in the near future?
-
Clayton,
What happens to the M3's in the field if their tweets fail/damaged? Is the Beyma a direct replacement? X-over mod's necessary? OR, do you anticipate the peerless unit coming back on line in the near future?
Looking at the design of the M3s are would guess we could update the tweeter and buy 2 new crossover boxes and have an updated speaker which would be a great value and easy to do due to the crossover over being plug and play. In fact, I will be all for these options and am willing to pay for them. I love silk dome tweeters. Be good for Clayton and the owners.
-
Mr. Big,
I'm with you. I also own the big Merlins using Dynaudio Esotar D-330's silk domes, reputedly among the finest ever made. And, yes, I love their presentation. So silk domes are OK with me. The replaceable x-over? That's fine as well. What, though, send the old x-over back to Clayton? Toss it? Actually, upon thinking about it (rare, I know), there isn't supposed to be much of an M3 x-over, correct? A resistor in-line with the tweet and maybe an inductor for the bass drivers? Isn't that about it?
-
Well, the design is great to order a new crossover takes the old one off and put on the new one. No muss no fuss. I have no issue with that at all. Tweeter would just be inserted it in the M3 if you wanted to try a silk dome. In fact you have both tweeters so if you wanted to change the sound a bit you could or your preference. Win, Win for all. Good business also.
-
The M4 is listed as a two-way, while the X4 is described as a 2.5-way, implying that the upper woofer in the X4 is being used in a different way (different crossover) than in the M4. Is that right?
-
Clayton,
What happens to the M3's in the field if their tweets fail/damaged? Is the Beyma a direct replacement? X-over mod's necessary? OR, do you anticipate the peerless unit coming back on line in the near future?
I'll let you know. I blew one of my tweeters (again / 2nd time) this afternoon. I'm aware this may take some time due to Clayton being sick (hopefully he is impoving and doing well).
Last year I was listening too loud but today - it was loud but not LOUD - probably 90 db w/ peaks to 95, volume knob at about 4.5. I'm bummed because I'm tweeterless for a while in 1 speaker (which means not listending at all except in headphones) but really almost as bad I'll have to start the breakin process over for the 3rd time. 1st world problems but ugh. It took me a year to get about 150-175 hours on the current tweeters.
-
Forky - SO BUMMED FOR YOU!! I know what it's like to be without music and it's NO FUN. Hopefully you'll be able to get a replacement... But it does make me wonder. I've not read about too many (or any?) failed tweets in the Sapphire series. And you've suffered through 2. Do you think it's something about your system? If you're an outlier, why? It just seems strange that one person could suffer with 2 failed tweets... Not to say that it can't happen.. Strange things happen all the time. But the question remains whether this is a strange occurrence or if something is awry in your system even if it's listening too loud (and I'm not saying you do). But now you've got me scared and I'm going to turn down the volume. Do you think your situation is simply the result of defective tweets or something else?
-
Catluck,
As you noted, there seem to be few if any other reports of failure...and lots of people running their speakers at 90 db plus which more than likely means over 100db at 1m. The unit still shows on the Peerless website and seems to be available to order in bulk internationally. Also, fwiw, peerless sapphire type units seem to be used in a number of their models....here is just one example.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/canton-vento-100-floor-standing-speaker-review/
forky....if you can't locate one on your own, maybe a Canton dealer can secure one for you
-
Hi Catluck, I can't say of course but if you've made it this long with your listening habbits, you will probably be ok in the future. That said, although the first blowout was WAY TOO LOUD and yesterday def was loud, it wasn't LOUD IMO. The volume knob was at 4.5 and I would guess the DBs were around 85-90 w/ peaks of 95. When the first blowout happened, I blamed myself, but not this one as I've listened that loud many times over the past year w/ no issues. I'm confident my amp isn't taxed and not clipping (not impossible but very doubtful) as M3s as I think 93 db/1 watt and I don't think I was much over that w/ about 50 watts per channel for my amp.
There have been at least 2, maybe 3 other reports of this happening (that I know of), one of them contacted me and we traded a few emails. About a month ago I traded emails with a "pro" reviewer and he owned M3s but sold them becuase he thought the tweeter is asked to do too much w/ a 576 hz crossover - or at least that is one of the reasons.
Since I set up my m3s and got them to disappear I have been completely (well almost anyway) satisfied with these speakers and intended to keep them for a long time but not I'm questioning again. With the Peerless tweeters NLA and Clayton's health right now (again I have full sympathy there and his health and taking care of himself is more important than me having tweeters - he is truly one of the nicest and best seller/manufactuer/people I have ever dealt with) along with this being the 2nd time, I'm thinking about moving on again.
For now, I will pull my trusty old Mirage M460s out of the garage and maybe buy a sub to get me through for a while. I could have the new tweeter at my doorstep next week or I may be waiting months. I have no idea - but will be ok with the Mirages and my headphones (where I spend more time anyway due to low WAF for "noise").
Edit, just saw Ron's post. Thanks Ron. I may just do that (contact Canton) although Clayton has said that Peerless "tunes" the tweeters for the Sapphires so....that may be a very good bandaid but ultimately I will need M3 tuned Peerless tweeters or maybe a M4 swap. When Catluck posted his post on Sept 10 it stuck with me and I remembered it not too long after I lost that tweeter yesterday.
-
Forky,
Got it. You raise an interesting issue re: volume. Sometimes, when playing louder than usual, I will hear piano notes "harden" or congest if you know what I mean. Likewise with other instruments which acquire an edge or glare or.... tones/timbre which are no longer musical. I take that as a sign to turn it down... FAST... So I guess I've just accepted a volume limitation although truth be told, it's rare that I find myself wanting to listen at volumes rendering the M3's tweet inadequate. Maybe it's a good thing in any event if it helps to preserve hearing.
Anyway, I wish you the very best of luck in getting a replacement. A selfish ask: If you do contact SA to request a replacement could you inquire if SA has a stock of tweets in case anybody else.... and let us know Thanks and again, good luck. You're right when you say it's a FWP but still....
-
I have the M3 Sapphires and generally don't play above 85db peaks
Honestly though, I think that many tweeters glare when pushed too hard...but I never heard glare when I had Salks with RAAL tweets...
And since I've had the Sapphires, I've never heard them glare or have congestion with any of these amps...Lyngdorf 2170, Parasound Halo A23, 2Cherry, Orchard Audio Stereo Ultra and Wells Immorata 2ST.....with maybe the Stereo Ultra being ever so slightly the smoothest but with tons of definition and space.
As for "tuning" the drivers....I suspect that is in the crossover and not so much in the unit itself.
As for the 576 hz crossover....I suspect that is one of the reasons they sound so good
It may be a wait but it looks like they can still be ordered in Europe on this site if SA doesn't have a stock.
https://www.sonopart.com/spd/PEE-DA32TX00-08/DA32TX00-08-1-1-4-Corondum-Dome-Tweeter-Matched-Pa
-
@forky
I would wait to get confirmation from Spatial. I am pretty sure those tweeters that are in your Sapphires are modified for Spatial Audio. I know they use Ferrofluid...the ones on the links don't list Ferrofluid. And even if they did, I would still get confirmation from someone at Spatial.
-
Actually, If you look at the spec sheet...unless I'm reading it wrong and I probably am, it shows ferrofluid.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1678--peerless-da32tx00-08-spec-sheet.pdf
-
Hi Catluck, I hate (!) distortion and as soon as I hear anything breaking up or brightness the volume knob goes down immidiately. On my cleaner sounding records I'm sure I could go louder than I do but don't (excpet that one time last year :( ). Also, of course I don't always listen that loud and...."only" listen to my M3s 0-3 hours per week as I can only do it when my wife has left the building. While I do have tinnitus, it isn't that bad that it bothers me. I just had my hearing checked in August and the doctor (?) said I have excellent hearing and was surprised at how faint I could hear the beeps (for 53 yo). But - I like to feel my music, even if just a small amount and like it on the louder side. I did read a comment last year that most sound engineers listen at around 85 db. I don't know if that is true or not.
Sure, once I get a reply from SA, I'll ask them how many are left - if any!
Hi Ron,
Sounds good and thanks for that link! I'll probably order if I don't hear from SA soon...
-
Just another thought...other than Ron at New Record Day who was using the Sapphires for his reference and said that they marched right to the edge of being too revealing without going over, it hasn't seemed like there are many people using OB's for reviews...or even admitting they own them. At any rate, I've noticed that Ron doesn't show any of the Spatials on his YouTube channel lately and wondered if he was getting flak for being a fanboy.
Clayton has done more than anyone to "legitimize" OB speakers as belonging to the "in crowd" group...and to make them worthy of the living room with his beautiful designs....although my wife doesn't completely agree and over the holidays asked me if it was time to get new speakers as she knows that I generally mix things up every year or so just for the sake of change.
-
Just another thought...other than Ron at New Record Day who was using the Sapphires for his reference and said that they marched right to the edge of being too revealing without going over, it hasn't seemed like there are many people using OB's for reviews...or even admitting they own them. At any rate, I've noticed that Ron doesn't show any of the Spatials on his YouTube channel lately and wondered if he was getting flak for being a fanboy.
Clayton has done more than anyone to "legitimize" OB speakers as belonging to the "in crowd" group...and to make them worthy of the living room with his beautiful designs....although my wife doesn't completely agree and over the holidays asked me if it was time to get new speakers as she knows that I generally mix things up every year or so just for the sake of change.
Yes, I'm intentionally treading lightly here as by no means am I trying to bash the product by any means or degree - although I've had what I consider relatively minor issues, I love my M3s. My wife actually likes they way they look :o , but after the 2nd tweeter she even asked me if it was time to start looking elsewhere. Maybe they just aren't a good fit for my listening habits which can be a bit more agressive with more agressive music sometimes.
-
Yes, I'm intentionally treading lightly here as by no means am I trying to bash the product by any means or degree - although I've had what I consider relatively minor issues, I love my M3s. My wife actually likes they way they look :o , but after the 2nd tweeter she even asked me if it was time to start looking elsewhere. Maybe they just aren't a good fit for my listening habits which can be a bit more agressive with more agressive music sometimes.
I was thinking the same about, maybe a dynamic speaker would be a better fit for your listening habits. Maybe a pair of Klipsch larger models? Open baffle speakers tend to be on the quiet side if you will.
-
I was thinking the same about, maybe a dynamic speaker would be a better fit for your listening habits. Maybe a pair of Klipsch larger models? Open baffle speakers tend to be on the quiet side if you will.
Yes, I'm actually leaning towards Cornwall IV or Volti Razz.....maybe a Walsh Ohm. Of those three I'm leaning towards the Razz. I'll hear them at the Tampa hifi show next month. They get good reviews but the measurements are - not good. I don't know much about those and just read about that last night. I'll hear them for myself and decide. Then there is the X4 as well but a bit more than I want to spend. Also, once I hook the Mirages back up I may even just go w/ those and add a few RELs.
I read through Spatial's site this morning and there is a 5 year warranty and mentions they have the right to change parts if the orignal is NLA (paraphrasing). So....I"ll wait for them to reply and hook up the Mirages and wait. Clayton was great about it last time it happened and realize he has more important things right now (but hopefully Justin will reply soon).
-
Yes, I'm intentionally treading lightly here as by no means am I trying to bash the product by any means or degree - although I've had what I consider relatively minor issues, I love my M3s. My wife actually likes they way they look :o , but after the 2nd tweeter she even asked me if it was time to start looking elsewhere. Maybe they just aren't a good fit for my listening habits which can be a bit more agressive with more agressive music sometimes.
There does not seem to be a lot of talk of tweeter failures on the M3s. I have played very loud at times and a few times forgetting to turn the volume down from a recording where I really had to raise the volume level, and then the next recording was night and day louder, and the blast and that is what it still did not damage. I know from my past experience when tweeters fried it was caused by your amp or gear in the system or even the speaker cable in the case of some very early Kimber Cable speaker cable caused the amp to become unstable. Makes me wonder why you have had such unfortunate issues. I feel for you.
-
I suspect that Volti will bring both the Razz and the Rivals as they did last year and then swap them out every hour or so. If you like the Razz...DO NOT listen to the Rivals.
Two other suggestions based on budget, sound and dynamics....make sure to go to the MOFI room to see the new Andrew Jones speakers and make sure to go to the Soundfield Audio room to see anything AJ has there...his stuff always sounds fantastic.
It should be a fun show because its not usually obnoxiously crowded.
-
Forky, with respect, what are the odds of you blowing TWO M3 tweeters and the problem is with the tweeters? My science brain says very low. Outside chance it is the crossover, but beyond that...
-
Forky, with respect, what are the odds of you blowing TWO M3 tweeters and the problem is with the tweeters?
Pretty high I'd say. :P
Seriously, the first one was my fault. I was playing a very clean (not much mid range) song & recording and wanted to see how loud it would go before they distorted. There was no distortion that I could hear but one of them gave out and the other one wasn't happy either. (cutting in-and-out IIRC). That could have been the amp clipping causing the tweeter to blow or ...maybe not but I think that is a strong possibility. The volume knob (I know this varies per preamp and recording) was at around probably 7.5-8-ish. It hans't been near then since!
This past one though was a complete surprise and unexpected. The volume was at around 4.5 or so and as I mentioned probably around 85-90 db w/ peaks of 95 (maybe not that much) and also didn't sound distorted that I could hear. I think the chances of my 50-ish watt per channel clipping at 95 db with speakers that are 93/ per watt (or somewhere around that) are extremely low. On the other hand we have a tweeter handling frequencies as low as 576 hz. There is another thread where someone blew there tweeter and stated his Pass Labs never left Class A when it happened. So while possiblle the amp clipped a few days ago I think it is highly unlikely.
All that said, my original post was less about why this happened but that there was some (valid, IMO) concern by Catluck in Sept about what will happen if a Peerless tweeter is blown and the tweeters are NLA. This resonated with me as I was wondering if it would get answered (I have a feeling though this is when Clayton started to get sick :( , not sure though) as it was a good question. Once Spatial replies (hopefully Justin will at some point) I'll update everyone and we (Sapphire owners) will know.
I did receive a PM asking me about DC being an issue. I don't know but I do have a dedicated line if that helps. I also have a whole-house surge protector.
-
I suspect that Volti will bring both the Razz and the Rivals as they did last year and then swap them out every hour or so. If you like the Razz...DO NOT listen to the Rivals.
Two other suggestions based on budget, sound and dynamics....make sure to go to the MOFI room to see the new Andrew Jones speakers and make sure to go to the Soundfield Audio room to see anything AJ has there...his stuff always sounds fantastic.
It should be a fun show because its not usually obnoxiously crowded.
I traded a few emails with Greg and he mentioned the Rivals but $15k is not in the cards at this time. I'd like to stay around $7k or below. That said, if I get a new M4 tweeter and slighly higher crossover then maybe I would keep the Sapphires. I don't need 100 max db but I do see peaks of 95 from time-to-time. Very rarely over that though - almost never....except that one time in '21 although I didn't have my DB meter on. I do turn that meter on almost every time I listen btw.
Your post did inspire me to watch a few mofi youtube vids yesterday though. I do look forward to hearing them.
-
You may well like the Razz… they will really go loud… but I think they may need a sub… not because they don’t have bass… but a sub blended in around 80-100 would just give them an overall fuller sound… at least to my ears.
Greg is a good guy and with the tweeter and midrange resistors he now puts on the back… they are tunable… but I still give a pretty good leg up to the overall M3 sound.
-
Bummer, good subs aren't cheap and I like bass. On that note the M3 bass is fantastic to my ears. hmmm.
-
Pretty high I'd say. :P
w/ peaks of 95
Yup, that would do it. Are you still using the Primaluna 300 that has 1% THD? Too bad Stereophile hasn't reviewed it, JA would have noted THD at clipping.
My Salk HT2-TL speakers easily go to 95dB but that is super loud, the Seas drivers are too clean so all the nasties become unbearable. Even using the 225 w/channel AVA SET 400 I think something in the speakers would eventually break after a few hours.
Since you have already mentioned other speakers I'll toss out the Odyssey Liquids. Klaus demos these speakers at 90-95dB, definitely no sub needed. But first call Klaus to find out their efficiency.
I found a review on AC: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134991.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134991.0)
The used pair at The Music Room are still available for $3267
https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/odyssey-liquid-floorstanding-speakers-oak-pair/ (https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/odyssey-liquid-floorstanding-speakers-oak-pair/)
-
Best of luck with the new model Clayton !! I'm still in love with the M3's still mind blowing. I have gone bat shit crazy with REW and passive treatment, I think the M3's in a treated room is simply amazing ! NO listening fatigue at all..
-
Best of luck with the new model Clayton !! I'm still in love with the M3's still mind-blowing. I have gone bat shit crazy with REW and passive treatment, I think the M3's in a treated room is simply amazing ! NO listening fatigue at all..
Correct. The M3s are superb when you set up right, treat the room and feed them good signals and recordings—the room is a HUGE component of our systems. Really no different than any good speakers, rooms matter, and setup matters. I see a costly system with TVs between the speakers, a love seat and chairs right by the speakers, and non-treated glass windows and I think to myself with all that money spent you never invested in a good room and acoustics, thus throwing your money away because you will never hear what you paid for. I will say this if the M3s were bright and aggressive like many speakers today they have been long gone. I can make them sound bad of course and that be by removing my treatments and listening to the room. A good speaker gives you what you feed it and that includes the room it is sitting in.
-
Yup, that would do it. Are you still using the Primaluna 300 that has 1% THD? Too bad Stereophile hasn't reviewed it, JA would have noted THD at clipping.
My Salk HT2-TL speakers easily go to 95dB but that is super loud, the Seas drivers are too clean so all the nasties become unbearable. Even using the 225 w/channel AVA SET 400 I think something in the speakers would eventually break after a few hours.
Since you have already mentioned other speakers I'll toss out the Odyssey Liquids. Klaus demos these speakers at 90-95dB, definitely no sub needed. But first call Klaus to find out their efficiency.
I found a review on AC: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134991.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134991.0)
The used pair at The Music Room are still available for $3267
https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/odyssey-liquid-floorstanding-speakers-oak-pair/ (https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/odyssey-liquid-floorstanding-speakers-oak-pair/)
Thansk and yes to 1% THD according to Upscales's site. Streophile did review it's big brother, the Evo 400 int but not the 300 (all tube). At 92/db per watt, 95 is only slightly over that and peaks, not continuous. But you guys know more about spec and how this stuff works than I do. Again I only listen in Ultralinear, in the 4 ohm taps and have KT-150s so I'm at least slightly over the published power.
Anyway...I've been doing my normal overthinking about this over the past few days to include how I listen to music. I think part of the reason I turn up the volume to a certain level is that I want to feel the music (but it to be accurate and not sloppy /bloated) so the volume goes up until that happens. Maybe the 17 yo in me, which I admit I still have. I'd like to keep the M3s and make them work. But maybe I do need to look elsewhere --- but I'm wondering if a nice REL S/12 or similar would help with that and would also clean up the mids as well.....? Most posts I have seen for subs with the M3s have been either negative or just not needed but I'm a special bass needs kid (at heart).
-
Forky...I think the question is "what are you asking a sub/subs to do"?
From just a musical standpoint, with almost all bass being above 50hz.....are you asking the subs to....
1. Provide bass below 50 hz that your speakers can't do
2. Provide bass below 50hz that the room is stealing
3. Augment already good bass below 50/60 hz just to add some punch
5. Help the mid bass about by running dual stereo subs and crossing over in the 80-120 range
These are just a few of the possible combinations....but until you can answer them, relative to your chosen speakers and how they perform in your room, you will just flail around.
In my case....M3 Sapphires....huge room, 1200 sq. ft....the Sapphires have really good toneful and punchy bass down below 40 hz. I also have a good 15" sealed sub...Power Sound Audio S1500...no remote, no PEQ...no fancy anything...but great sound....so, if I turn it on, cross it around 50hz....resist any temptation to turn it up so that it overpowers the great sound the Sapphires put out...what I get is a slightly augmented bottom end...with just a little more punch...most of the time, I have it off, I'm not looking for a "nightclub" type of sound. Most of the time, I have it turned off.
Also, if you are just looking for augmentation down in the 50 hz and below range where the music doesn't really have much tone, I'd say that anything REL is going to work...but you are way over paying.
So, what are you asking a sub/s to do?
-
Forky...I think the question is "what are you asking a sub/subs to do"?
From just a musical standpoint, with almost all bass being above 50hz.....are you asking the subs to....
1. Provide bass below 50 hz that your speakers can't do
2. Provide bass below 50hz that the room is stealing
3. Augment already good bass below 50/60 hz just to add some punch
5. Help the mid bass about by running dual stereo subs and crossing over in the 80-120 range
These are just a few of the possible combinations....but until you can answer them, relative to your chosen speakers and how they perform in your room, you will just flail around.
In my case....M3 Sapphires....huge room, 1200 sq. ft....the Sapphires have really good toneful and punchy bass down below 40 hz. I also have a good 15" sealed sub...Power Sound Audio S1500...no remote, no PEQ...no fancy anything...but great sound....so, if I turn it on, cross it around 50hz....resist any temptation to turn it up so that it overpowers the great sound the Sapphires put out...what I get is a slightly augmented bottom end...with just a little more punch...most of the time, I have it off, I'm not looking for a "nightclub" type of sound. Most of the time, I have it turned off.
Also, if you are just looking for augmentation down in the 50 hz and below range where the music doesn't really have much tone, I'd say that anything REL is going to work...but you are way over paying.
So, what are you asking a sub/s to do?
Thanks Ron, I was thinking mostly #1 but possibly #5. I don't want to add anything that isn't there (no nightclub) and just take a load off the M3s say, 50 and below and will also give me 20-35 which isn't there - although I realize some (most?) music doesn't go much below 35. When I read or watch subwoofer reviews it is usually comments like "a fuller sound" or sometimes "music (bass) I didn't know was there" and even "it cleared up the mids and I heard stuff I haven't heard before".
Btw, I'm not stuck on REL. I was also reading about Rythmic subs which seem to be well regarded and cost much less.
Thanks for the extra info and things to think about. As mentioned it may wind up that I just "need" to go to another speaker but I would like to keep the M3s if I can get them to work with me.
Also wondering that even if I do have my own dedicated power line if dirty power could have been a contributor(?). If so then maybe the PSM 156 gets moved to the front of the list.
-
--- but I'm wondering if a nice REL S/12 or similar would help with that and would also clean up the mids as well.....? Most posts I have seen for subs with the M3s have been either negative or just not needed but I'm a special bass needs kid (at heart).
A REL sub is really a sub subwoofer, they are designed to reproduce the lowest low notes. The preferred connection is from the amplifier speaker terminals, the sub then sees the exactly same sonic signature as the main speakers. REL subs do not have any low pass or high pass filters, they are not designed to take the bass load off the main speakers.
I use a REL, they have the fastest bass of all subs and easily keep up with the SEAS and RAAL drivers. I have heard REL with Magnapan 3.7 and 1.7i speakers, they all blend seamlessly. If you hear a REL sub it is too loud, but dance music like Parov Stelar hits a lot harder with a REL, the album "Moonlight Love Affair" is my favorite.
(https://i.discogs.com/WNdT4EhJZlF_orkgqhNuBDSu2foIqklrgC6cAbY6oTY/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:537/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTIyODQx/MzU0LTE2NDk2NzM5/NTItNTU0Mi5qcGVn.jpeg)
A friend just picked up a used S/510 at half price, it punches hard for it's size and it goes down to 20Hz, some affordable RELs don't go that low. You really need 20Hz to experience audio nirvana. Room size and loudness will determine what model will work for you. I always suggest calling the REL factory, they have excellent pre-sales support and can advise what will work best, not necessarily the most expensive.
The Music Room always has great deals on REL subs
https://tmraudio.com/search-results-page?q=rel%20subwoofers (https://tmraudio.com/search-results-page?q=rel%20subwoofers)
-
Forky, one of the many strengths of the M3 Sapphire is the tone of the lower and mid bass… probably because of the driver choice and open baffle… so if you cross the M3 out at 80 hz as an example, you lose the tone… and there is no issue with the dual 15”ers handling the volume.
If you keep the Sapphires, then I’d run them full range and cross in a good sub around 50hz give or take.
-
Forky, one of the many strengths of the M3 Sapphire is the tone of the lower and mid bass… probably because of the driver choice and open baffle… so if you cross the M3 out at 80 hz as an example, you lose the tone… and there is no issue with the dual 15”ers handling the volume.
If you keep the Sapphires, then I’d run them full range and cross in a good sub around 50hz give or take.
Clayton told if I were to use a sub-woofer set the crossover at 40Hz or lower. He said it be the best blend without messing with the sound of the M3. I tried it and he was correct, he also said for 99% of the music played you really won't need a subwoofer and some might feel after breaking and proper setup they have too much bass.
-
Thanks guys. I think it is time for me to move on after all. I don't know how long it will take to receive replacements with the current situation and could be tweeterless for a while. I have a Mirage in it's place and while it does sound reasonably good, it is no match for the M3.
Will likely be pulling the trigger on a Volti Razz (3 mos out build) or Cornwall IV in the next few days.
-
Bummer, good subs aren't cheap and I like bass. On that note the M3 bass is fantastic to my ears. hmmm.
Looks like you are moving onto the Voltis (that is one of the only speakers I would consider other than the Spatials) but I played around with adding in two SVS SB2000 Pros over the holidays (I use them in my home theater). These subs don’t have audiophile cred BUT the phone app and DSP are soooooo useful. Long story short: they didn’t do it for me, after much fiddling. I reverted back to my Schiit Lokius to bump the M3’s sub-bass a bit. Sounds divine.
No more fiddling for me.
-
Looks like you are moving onto the Voltis (that is one of the only speakers I would consider other than the Spatials) but I played around with adding in two SVS SB2000 Pros over the holidays (I use them in my home theater). These subs don’t have audiophile cred BUT the phone app and DSP are soooooo useful. Long story short: they didn’t do it for me, after much fiddling. I reverted back to my Schiit Lokius to bump the M3’s sub-bass a bit. Sounds divine.
No more fiddling for me.
Did you try the 24 db slope at 40hz? That was the magic setting for me.
-
Thanks guys. I think it is time for me to move on after all. I don't know how long it will take to receive replacements with the current situation and could be tweeterless for a while. I have a Mirage in it's place and while it does sound reasonably good, it is no match for the M3.
Will likely be pulling the trigger on a Volti Razz (3 mos out build) or Cornwall IV in the next few days.
I had the Volti Audio Razz in my home for review just a few months ago and have been to the factory. Got to hang out with Greg Roberts and see his factory. Volti is the real deal. They make a great product and use top-quality components. I myself have Spatial Audio speakers and the Volti are one of the few box speakers I would look at if going back. Their midrange performance alone is a revelation!
-
Thanks guys. I think it is time for me to move on after all. I don't know how long it will take to receive replacements with the current situation and could be tweeterless for a while. I have a Mirage in it's place and while it does sound reasonably good, it is no match for the M3.
Will likely be pulling the trigger on a Volti Razz (3 mos out build) or Cornwall IV in the next few days.
Did you see the Stereophile review of the Razz? There is no possibility of any loudspeaker in the history of audio to be as poorly designed as this one. And $6k? If you want buyer's remorse, going anywhere near these things would make expecting a tweeter to play at anything above a whisper when crossed over at 800hz small potatoes.
How could the Razz be considered by anyone in his right mind in the first place. Absolutely unbelievable.
-
Did you see the Stereophile review of the Razz? There is no possibility of any loudspeaker in the history of audio to be as poorly designed as this one. And $20k? If you want buyer's remorse, going anywhere near these things would make expecting a tweeter to play at anything above a whisper when crossed over at 800hz small potatoes.
How could the Razz be considered by anyone in his right mind in the first place. Absolutely unbelievable.
Have you heard them? They are not $20k and this topic has been beaten to death on other sites, in comments on tests and also Greg. I've probably read them all.
Besides, it looks like I have found a new set of speakers that are not the Razz. I'll update for anyone interested once further along.
Also another THANK YOU to the very awesome and generous AC member who has a spare set of M3 tweeters and will be mailing them to me. I am really, very, truly grateful.
-
Have you heard them? They are not $20k and this topic has been beaten to death on other sites, in comments on tests and also Greg. I've probably read them all.
Besides, it looks like I have found a new set of speakers that are not the Razz. I'll update for anyone interested once further along.
Also another THANK YOU to the very awesome and generous AC member who has a spare set of M3 tweeters and will be mailing them to me. I am really, very, truly grateful.
Thank goodness you came to your senses. I suspect you weren't really serious about the Razz anyway.
There is one possibility for a seemingly favorable impression of the Razz, It must be that not only is synergy a thing when combining various components it is something that can be taken advantage of by combining the objectively horrible measurements of a loudspeaker's characteristics and somehow getting the sum total to spit out something that represents the sound of a musical instrument… to some people.
For some reason finding out that it is 6k vs 20k didn't make me feel any less sick to my stomach.
-
Did you see the Stereophile review of the Razz? There is no possibility of any loudspeaker in the history of audio to be as poorly designed as this one. And $6k? If you want buyer's remorse, going anywhere near these things would make expecting a tweeter to play at anything above a whisper when crossed over at 800hz small potatoes.
How could the Razz be considered by anyone in his right mind in the first place. Absolutely unbelievable.
Am I missing something here. The review looked very positive?
-
Hi Dave,
I didn't read read the review, just looked at the measurements. If the reviewer said anything positive rhe disconnect between hearing and measurement credibility has reached new levels. Stereophile needs to decide if the Absolute Sound or rhe ASR route is what makes sense because if they imagine a correlation between what you imply the listener heard and what JA measured it must be obvious that these people are the epitomy of pandering lackeys for the cause.
p.s. is that LP inside the triangle room dominated 3d soundstage speaker positioning still working for you?
-
Hi Dave,
I didn't read read the review, just looked at the measurements. If the reviewer said anything positive rhe disconnect between hearing and measurement credibility has reached new levels. Stereophile needs to decide if the Absolute Sound or rhe ASR route is what makes sense because if they imagine a correlation between what you imply the listener heard and what JA measured it must be obvious that these people are the epitomy of pandering lackeys for the cause.
p.s. is that LP inside the triangle room dominated 3d soundstage speaker positioning still working for you?
You'll have to hold my hand on this one sorry. You might have to be more specific.
-
In the end, this is how a piece of gear sounds. From experience gear from the late '70s to 80's did not spec out as gear today, but guess what it sounded better more like real music because back then they compare to a master tape they made of a live piano and see how close it came, one label Opus3 made recordings that sound like they were in the room, the master amp, a Dynacio stereo 70. I watch these YouTube reviews that just use specs and they bomb stuff because it does not spec out ideally like they think it should, worthless, it's how the gear sounds in your system. I go to audio stores today and the systems sound like crap, anti-musical all detail of highs and tight lows with no midbass to support the midrange. Any speaker would sound anemic using gear like that. Be it Spatial or Dynaudio to Electrostatics or panels. But they spec out great. You can keep them.
-
:D the Aurum Cantus tweets to me were hot. And one failed on me. They are cheap to buy. I think a better tweet would be great on this good bottom end speaker. Love big drivers. Love servo even more. :D
-
Clayton,
What happens to the M3's in the field if their tweets fail/damaged? Is the Beyma a direct replacement? X-over mod's necessary? OR, do you anticipate the peerless unit coming back on line in the near future?
Hi Catluck,
Clayton is back at work and my new Sapphire M3 replacement tweeters arrvied about an hour ago. I didn't ask him specifically how many he has, but he mentioned he has a few M100s left (I'm don't know if that means 2 or 10 or more). I didn't want to bother him too much with everything on his plate right now and getting caught up - but he has at least a few still available.
-
If Clayton is out of the hospital and even back at work, that’s the best news I’ve heard in a long time. But I’d like to hear it from him or his son as well.
-
Forky - Thanks for the info. Great to hear! I'm still going to be conservative on volume because, as you note, could be 2 could be 10 M100's in reserve. Truth is, I've never been a fan of loud except on rare occasions. Typically, I find the rooms at most CES type events too loud to tolerate for long. But, still, it's good news... Thanks for weighing in.
-
So I'm sad :( to report that I've moved on from the M3s but I now have a set of Volti Rivals sitting in my living room. :green: I've only listened to them for about 30 minutes so far so still letting it all sink in. They are used so they are broken in but less than 1 year old so they are almost brand new. From what very little time I have on them I would sum up a comparison with the M3s have a more audiophile sound and the Rivals are a more live music sound (but still have an audiophile quality /sense to them as well). I would have liked to have kept the M3s but my wife would have REALLY killed me if I did. She is still not happy about the small-ish Mirages out in the garage I've carted around for the past 30 years.
Thanks to everyone here for all the help throught the last 18 months or so. I'll still be dropping by from time-to-time I'm sure. I like the "small town" atmosphere here vs the bigger forums.
-
So I'm sad :( to report that I've moved on from the M3s but I now have a set of Volti Rivals sitting in my living room. :green: I've only listened to them for about 30 minutes so far so still letting it all sink in. They are used so they are broken in but less than 1 year old so they are almost brand new. From what very little time I have on them I would sum up a comparison with the M3s have a more audiophile sound and the Rivals are a more live music sound (but still have an audiophile quality /sense to them as well). I would have liked to have kept the M3s but my wife would have REALLY killed me if I did. She is still not happy about the small-ish Mirages out in the garage I've carted around for the past 30 years.
Thanks to everyone here for all the help throught the last 18 months or so. I'll still be dropping by from time-to-time I'm sure. I like the "small town" atmosphere here vs the bigger forums.
I would love to hear your thought's on them. HiFi is a journey and we ultimately end up at the same place. Getting so much pleasure from music, a gift from God I might say. You've bought some great discussions and we appreciate that.
-
Sockpit, per the new thread, I guess Clayton is isn't back yet :( . I just got that impression after my communication with Clayton which was fast and efficient and he sent the tweeters out the next day. Sorry I assumed incorrectly but Spatial said they will be back in a few months.
I would love to hear your thought's on them. HiFi is a journey and we ultimately end up at the same place. Getting so much pleasure from music, a gift from God I might say. You've bought some great discussions and we appreciate that.
Thanks Dave. Sorry this is so long but here it goes. Grab a cup of coffee for when you are bored:
I've heard only about 9-11 songs so far so the Rivals are really my early thoughts on them. Also, although they sound great (more below), I just put them where I had the M3s (which were positioned as perfect as I could find and they disappeared and sounded fantastic) but spaced them out another 1' and gave them a lot more toe in which I keep reading they require.
Also please keep in mind that I'm still somewhat of a newbie (but not new) and don't have the listening skills many here do. When I read some reviews here or audiogon I'm reminded of that.
First, I will discuss my take of my 18-ish months with the Sapphire M3s: The Rivals sound so much different than the M3s it is striking (edit- some aspects are similar - but the overall sound is much different). It also made me appreciate the M3s for what they shined at which was an audiophile sound which to me is an intimate evening with my favorite band and I’m in the recoding studio with them. Also, the separation of instruments along with precise imaging and a very nice sound stage that went outside my speakers which disappeared. They shined with all non-hard rock recordings I have from medium to medium loud and even loud volumes (this seems to be subjective as to what loud is even though I’m aware of the OSCHA chart, etc.). The cons were – playing hard rock at higher volumes and even some non-hard rock records where the tweeter and higher mids were a bit too sharp (sometimes bright, sometimes even a bit piercing) and also would lose separation (into a blended mess). Maybe my room needed even more treatment but the Rivals didn’t have this issue with the treatment I have. My takeaway is that what makes the M3 such a good speaker for most of my music at reasonable listening volume is also what hurts is (IMO) on certain recordings and volume level. Hey, you can’t have it all! Which is to say the M3s are quite amazing up to a point with most good recordings in my room. Also, even though I had the M3s 5’ from the front wall, I didn’t sense much depth or even height of the sound stage. I will rack that up to the fact that they needed further tweaking positioning-wise although they sounded so good there otherwise I couldn’t get myself to move them a mm. Oh, and I would get listening fatigue from the M3s after a “while”. Before they were broken in that didn’t take long at all but were much better after break-in.
The Rivals still have an audiophile sense about them for sure and even though I don’t have them positioned to disappear yet they have excellent separation of instruments, imaging and sound stage. Not quite a good as the M3 YET because again, I just “dropped” them in my room where the M3s were + 1’ apart with more toe in. But – what I have found is that I prefer the Rivals at low-level listening (which I do!) as the bass and low end comes through better.
On one of my problem child records for the M3s above 83 db, the Rivals handled with ease with no brightness or sense of harshness. However (!) on this particular record it did lack some of the “air” that the M3s had at lower volume. I didn’t sense this as much with the other records I played though and with the Rivals I do have the option of changing the crossovers for more or less tweeter and/or midrange. I won’t touch those for a while though.
Where the Rival really shines is where the M3s put you in the recording studio, the Rivals put you in the front row at a live concert. I wasn’t expecting or prepared to what happened when I turned the volume up to 11:00-ish, I guess that is “5”? (the max I played the M3s were 5-6). OMG. I lol’d more than a few times. Again I haven’t listened to many songs yet and even fewer LOUD (only 3-4) but it really did sound very, very real – like I was at the show. The standout of those 4 songs was "Where do the Children Play" by Cat Stevens. The acoustic guitars sounded as good as the M3s and there was air around them in this track – which was LOUD but then when the drums came in later in the song I may has well had a drum set sitting in my living room! It was and is unbelievable. Not just loud but C R Y S T A L C L E A R and still very detailed and just – very, very real sounding. I’m still gobsmacked by the experience and can’t wait to repeat it again soon which will likely be tomorrow afternoon hopefully. Also, 0.00 listening fatigue although I admit I haven’t listened more than 30 minutes straight yet.
The Rivals are just the right of too much for me. :) I can’t wait to get them positioned properly so they disappear. I do miss the M3s more than I thought though. Maybe someday I will be able to buy some back and have both (but will likely need to be single to do that!).
-
Also a note that the msrp of the Rivals are exactly 3x that of the Sapphire M3 when it was new. So this is like comparing a GT3 to a base Cayman for you Porsche people out there. I bought my Rivals used which saved a bunch of $ plus they are also broken in.
Also, one disadvantage of the Rivals I forgot to mention above was pointed out in the Stereophile review of the Rivals which was (is), "One disadvantage of the Rivals' immaculate transparency was their tendency to emphasize every pop, tick and surface-noise goblin on any less-than-perfect" LPs. Records whose well-played surfaces had barely troubled me before now bit my ears like sonic vampires."
I had forgotten about this quote when I was listening to my mofi Brother in Arms but it thought of it not long after my listening session ended. It certainly is true although I think it has more to do with the volume levels themselves - will keep a better "ear" on this.
-
Having done a fair amount of listening to the Rivals each of three years at the Florida Audio Expo and having owned the M3 Sapphires for a year, I can appreciate a lot of what you are saying. The Rivals definitely can give you the "you are there live" explosiveness and immediacy without the horn harshness that you so often read about.
The M3s, like many good speakers, are sensitive to the room, the placement and the electronics...get them right and what I've found them to do right is just about everything...since I've never had the Rivals in my room, I can't compare the immediacy but the Sapphires are pretty darn good in that area as well....full disclosure though....I'm an 85 db max peaks listener.
One thing that may help the Rivals sense of air/openness/dimensionality is adding a supertweeter...and since these are easily returned...30 day trial with free shipping both ways....one of these might just be the answer
https://www.aperionaudio.com/collections/super-tweeter-speaker
Overall, you don't see too many Spatial Audio or Volti speakers show up on the preowned market...which I thinks speaks to how much their owners enjoy their sound.
Let's hope that Clayton is back in the next couple months and coming out with his next brilliant design!
-
sounds to me like the Rivals sound very much like the newer generation Klipsch Heritage line! Forte IV comes to mind. But I love my X3s!!! Turned up louder than I listen my brother in law, who is dyed in the wool Klipsch fan, says they approach the Klipsch abilities.
just sayin
-
Sockpit, per the new thread, I guess Clayton is isn't back yet :( . I just got that impression after my communication with Clayton which was fast and efficient and he sent the tweeters out the next day. Sorry I assumed incorrectly but Spatial said they will be back in a few months.
Thanks Dave. Sorry this is so long but here it goes. Grab a cup of coffee for when you are bored:
I've heard only about 9-11 songs so far so the Rivals are really my early thoughts on them. Also, although they sound great (more below), I just put them where I had the M3s (which were positioned as perfect as I could find and they disappeared and sounded fantastic) but spaced them out another 1' and gave them a lot more toe in which I keep reading they require.
Also please keep in mind that I'm still somewhat of a newbie (but not new) and don't have the listening skills many here do. When I read some reviews here or audiogon I'm reminded of that.
First, I will discuss my take of my 18-ish months with the Sapphire M3s: The Rivals sound so much different than the M3s it is striking (edit- some aspects are similar - but the overall sound is much different). It also made me appreciate the M3s for what they shined at which was an audiophile sound which to me is an intimate evening with my favorite band and I’m in the recoding studio with them. Also, the separation of instruments along with precise imaging and a very nice sound stage that went outside my speakers which disappeared. They shined with all non-hard rock recordings I have from medium to medium loud and even loud volumes (this seems to be subjective as to what loud is even though I’m aware of the OSCHA chart, etc.). The cons were – playing hard rock at higher volumes and even some non-hard rock records where the tweeter and higher mids were a bit too sharp (sometimes bright, sometimes even a bit piercing) and also would lose separation (into a blended mess). Maybe my room needed even more treatment but the Rivals didn’t have this issue with the treatment I have. My takeaway is that what makes the M3 such a good speaker for most of my music at reasonable listening volume is also what hurts is (IMO) on certain recordings and volume level. Hey, you can’t have it all! Which is to say the M3s are quite amazing up to a point with most good recordings in my room. Also, even though I had the M3s 5’ from the front wall, I didn’t sense much depth or even height of the sound stage. I will rack that up to the fact that they needed further tweaking positioning-wise although they sounded so good there otherwise I couldn’t get myself to move them a mm. Oh, and I would get listening fatigue from the M3s after a “while”. Before they were broken in that didn’t take long at all but were much better after break-in.
The Rivals still have an audiophile sense about them for sure and even though I don’t have them positioned to disappear yet they have excellent separation of instruments, imaging and sound stage. Not quite a good as the M3 YET because again, I just “dropped” them in my room where the M3s were + 1’ apart with more toe in. But – what I have found is that I prefer the Rivals at low-level listening (which I do!) as the bass and low end comes through better.
On one of my problem child records for the M3s above 83 db, the Rivals handled with ease with no brightness or sense of harshness. However (!) on this particular record it did lack some of the “air” that the M3s had at lower volume. I didn’t sense this as much with the other records I played though and with the Rivals I do have the option of changing the crossovers for more or less tweeter and/or midrange. I won’t touch those for a while though.
Where the Rival really shines is where the M3s put you in the recording studio, the Rivals put you in the front row at a live concert. I wasn’t expecting or prepared to what happened when I turned the volume up to 11:00-ish, I guess that is “5”? (the max I played the M3s were 5-6). OMG. I lol’d more than a few times. Again I haven’t listened to many songs yet and even fewer LOUD (only 3-4) but it really did sound very, very real – like I was at the show. The standout of those 4 songs was "Where do the Children Play" by Cat Stevens. The acoustic guitars sounded as good as the M3s and there was air around them in this track – which was LOUD but then when the drums came in later in the song I may has well had a drum set sitting in my living room! It was and is unbelievable. Not just loud but C R Y S T A L C L E A R and still very detailed and just – very, very real sounding. I’m still gobsmacked by the experience and can’t wait to repeat it again soon which will likely be tomorrow afternoon hopefully. Also, 0.00 listening fatigue although I admit I haven’t listened more than 30 minutes straight yet.
The Rivals are just the right of too much for me. :) I can’t wait to get them positioned properly so they disappear. I do miss the M3s more than I thought though. Maybe someday I will be able to buy some back and have both (but will likely need to be single to do that!).
What you are hearing is what horn speakers do so well is sound live and upfront. Some like that sound and some don't. Klipish of course has been doing it for many, many years and they say their newer version can sound great with lots of toe-in.