AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Discless Circle => Topic started by: mresseguie on 9 Jan 2019, 06:46 am
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Which DAC has given you the best SQ, toe tapping enjoyment of music, or just made you feel like your system sounds like a million dollar system?
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Denafrips Terminator.....
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Nuprime Evolution DAC.
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Have fun and hope you guys have deep pockets because this is a very fast moving target. So my choice would be a PS Audio DirectStream Senior, not because its the best (always a point of contention) but because the company continues to issue free firmware improvements.
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so far the L.K.S. MH-DA004 DAC
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RME ADI -2 DAC... and not just for the sound.
It has some unique features that make it more attractive than the competition.
That said I have a PSA Direct stream jr on the way...
I might be singing a different tune after trying that.
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RME ADI -2 DAC... and not just for the sound.
It has some unique features that make it more attractive than the competition.
That said I have a PSA Direct stream jr on the way...
I might be singing a different tune after trying that.
While shopping last summer looked long and hard at the RME, but it wouldn't do DSP and DSD. Went with the DirectStream Junior for it's free upgrades and server capability.
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Have fun and hope you guys have deep pockets because this is a very fast moving target. So my choice would be a PS Audio DirectStream Senior, not because its the best (always a point of contention) but because the company continues to issue free firmware improvements.
For me, that has always been part of the excitement. Just over the horizon I’ll find....
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I've been very happy with my DirectStream Sr. for a few years now. Really fantastic DAC and definitely appreciate the continued product support from PS Audio. I think they might be approaching the limits of the current hardware (as firmware updates have been less frequent). I'm sure it has to do with project prioritization for PS Audio as well. Regardless, I feel zero need to get a new DAC any time soon. The sound is wonderful.
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Denafrips Terminator.....
+1 :D
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When I saw the thread title, I couldn't help but think "Hmmmm, naming equipment, that's an interesting subject. You know, like Bob, or Phyllis or whatever.
Alas, I was disappointed...
To show respect, I address my equipment with honorific titles. Mr. Amplifier, Ms. DA converter, Sir speaker terminal, etc. Is that weird?
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:rotflmao: :bowdown:
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OK I will open up a can of worms..sort of
I have an older Benchmark DAC1 and a Schiit Bifrost Uber. But neither sound as good as my Bluesound Node 2 (internal NAD DAC) playing MQA albums.
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I've been very happy with my DirectStream Sr. for a few years now. Really fantastic DAC and definitely appreciate the continued product support from PS Audio. I think they might be approaching the limits of the current hardware (as firmware updates have been less frequent). I'm sure it has to do with project prioritization for PS Audio as well. Regardless, I feel zero need to get a new DAC any time soon. The sound is wonderful.
DS is a fantastic DAC (and I still own one since it was released) but obviously built to a price point. They are building a TS Signature version which is a cost no object DAC. Not sure how it will be priced.
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I agree, the Bluesound node 2 DAC is very nice, especially with mqa.
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Mola Mola Tambaqui
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To be a contrarian, I have yet to find a favorite DAC.
In the last few years I have had the PS Audio Perfect Wave, Meitner MA-1, Lampizator Lite 7, Schitt Yggdrasil, and currently the Mytek Manhattan 2.
All of them have had strengths and weaknesses. I have yet to find an endgame DAC.
Although, I have been very interested in trying a Chord Dave, but am holding out for the inevitable MK2 version which I imagine is coming soon.
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I pick up this cheap SMSL SU-8 Dac over the holiday.mine mine ,what a surprise how good this Dac sound. :o
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There, just over the horizon.... :o
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The upgrade from the Vinnie Rossi DAC 1.0 to the DAC 2.0 is some of the best money I have spent in audio, it certainly wasn’t an improvement I had to strain to hear, outstanding.
Best,
Ed
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Exogal - Comet plus
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I would say the law of diminishing returns kicks like a mule around Chord Qutest DAC...
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7802/32809873928_ccb656ccd5.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RZibrw)1130180821 (https://flic.kr/p/RZibrw) by drjlo1 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/drjlo1/), on Flickr
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OK I will open up a can of worms..sort of
I have an older Benchmark DAC1 and a Schiit Bifrost Uber. But neither sound as good as my Bluesound Node 2 (internal NAD DAC) playing MQA albums.
That Bluesound peaks my interest. Can you adjust the volume from your Ipad or cell phone? A new 2i is now available and it is rated as better SQ..
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Yes.
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I have an OPPO UDP 205 which is on probation until I can thoroughly and reliably integrate it in my system. Also have a Sonica which has won me over. Both sound fantastic.
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That Bluesound peaks my interest. Can you adjust the volume from your Ipad or cell phone? A new 2i is now available and it is rated as better SQ..
NAD has just announced a "Node 2/i on steroids" the $1500 MSRP C658 that uses latest ESS chip, has XLR outputs, and offers Dirac DSP room correction software built-in.
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Yes.
Are you or gregfisk using this straight into your amp? That gets rid of one IC and the preamp.
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I have enjoyed the Tranquility SE DAC for a number of years before changing to a Metrum Musette. I found both to be very musical with the Musette a little more refined.
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Exogal - Comet plus
+1
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I love the iFi iDSD Pro, because I find that a well executed tube output stage really helps digital sound more real.
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i like my Waversa DAC3 MK2 with ethernet input.
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Right now it's the DAC I'm currently using, the Musical Paradise MP-D2 with Modwright mods.
That could change because.....
There!
There just over the horizon.....
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There, just over the horizon.... :o
Just over the horizon is what has pushed me to keep searching for the next DAC to take me to the next level...to achieve an analog SQ without going the TT or reel to reel route.
I have enjoyed the Tranquility SE DAC for a number of years before changing to a Metrum Musette. I found both to be very musical with the Musette a little more refined.
Thanks for mentioning the Tranquility and NOS DACs, borism. :thumb:
The TDA1543 DAC chip + whatever Eric paired it to in my dB Audio Labs Tranquility SE DAC opened up to me the wonderful world of NOS DAC sound. I love the music that NOS DACs deliver. This is the architecture - the sound - that I want in my system. The vast majority of the music that I listen to is Redbook CD quality. I don't need to chase after this or that DSD or MQA capable DAC. [I'm certainly not criticizing anyone for wanting/owning DSD/MQA capable DACs. I'm merely declaring my preference.]
I really like my Tranquility SE DAC - so much so that I brought it to Taiwan to listen to while I'm here. I have every intention of leaving it here to await my return next winter. Doing so means I must find a replacement for it in the States. The replacement will be another NOS DAC that I've been researching for the last few months. Before I stumbled upon the Tranquility DAC, I had thought for sure that my next DAC would be either the Denafrips Terminator or the Lampizator Atlantic. With the Tranquility, I 'graduated' to a new level of appreciation. It opened my eyes to what other NOS DACs could offer me. [I just reread the last two sentences, and decided one could misread them to think I'm claiming the Tranquility is better than the Lampi or Terminator. I am not making this claim. I never compared the Terminator to my Tranquility. I did compare my Tranquility to gregfisk's Lampi, and the Lampi won, but it costs $3000(?) more than my Tranquility.]
Thanks to all for their input. It's very informational to know what everyone likes.
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I've been using a Resolution Audio Opus 21 as my dac for 6-7 years now. It's the best dac I've heard, or should say listened to closely enough to really know the sound. I doubt I'll ever replace it as long as it keeps working.
Happy to be off the marry-go-round as far as source goes.
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I've been very happy with my Crane Song Solaris.
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Really like my Jolida Fusion Tube DAC.
Ric
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I know the sound you are talking about and have a soft spot for the TDA1541. After liaising with Lukasz Fikus, before he started Lampizator as a commercial venture, on a problem I had converting an old Marantz to NOS and 'lampizing' the output stage I found myself being asked to convert friends units to tube output stage. Most Philips and Marantz units lent themselves to this mod.
This was about 8 maybe 10 years ago when he posted full details on his site. I ended up with a well modified Marantz CD85, lampized of course, which I used to proudly cart off to challenge anybody who thought they had a good chance.
Years passed and I sold most of my kit when I moved to a new country. I did some horse trading for a Bryston BDA-1 and bought an Oppo 103 for the wife which was reputed to have a really good DAC. The Oppo was OK, not terrible, not great. The Bryston was better but something was wrong. Then I realised I had trouble with the new and very popular Delta/Sigma architecture. Female vocal would usually find me hurriedly changing track and/or lowering the volume.
I needed something better and remembering the few DACs that rivaled or beat my CD85 used TDA1541/3 and their ilk. I found it in a Wadia 15 using the wonderful Burr Brown PCM63. PCM1702 is another one to look out for.
It is hard to describe the transformation that took place. Huge improvement that sounded like a very much more expensive system. Just so much more fun to listen to, more like music. Bring on those female vocals now. Try Filipa Giordano. WOW We now spend more time grooving to music than watching TV. The Wadia is beautiful and I'm now considering lifting her skirt and inserting my hot and hard Brimar E88CC into her!
I paid about $700 for my unit. I have no idea what it would cost for a modern DAC to provide this type of ballsy glare free performance. For redbook playback only. But when I compare it to the Bryston's 24/96 or higher I wonder what all the fuss is about.
Anybody wanna buy a Bryston BDA1/BDP-1 combo?
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Tried several but keep going back to my Auralic Vega
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NAD has just announced a "Node 2/i on steroids" the $1500 MSRP C658 that uses latest ESS chip, has XLR outputs, and offers Dirac DSP room correction software built-in.
At CES, NAD showed their new M10 Masters for $2500.
https://www.cepro.com/article/2500_nad_masters_m10_brings_audiophile_performance_to_streaming_audio_marke
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Have tried 6-7 dacs but nothing can touch my 7 year old Lampizator Level 3+ that Lukas personally modified about 5 years ago. Have had a couple of Schiits, a Metrum, a Resonessence, a Benchmark - all were really good but none came close enough to stick around. Have a new Exogel Comet + on the way, have read great stuff and a contender to take over streaming duties, wondering if this will be the one to unseat the ageing king Lampizator and relegate it to cd play with my Rega cd player.
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I replaced a PS Audio Directstream with a Audio Note 3.1 Signature Dac and haven’t looked back. On both Redbook CD and USB(Converted to S/PDIF) the AN Dac was more analog sounding with more body and texture
To the music. If I had to pick a 2nd best it would be my Levinson No. 360S....also better at Redbook than the PS Audio Directstream Dac.
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I replaced a PS Audio Directstream with a Audio Note 3.1 Signature Dac and haven’t looked back. On both Redbook CD and USB(Converted to S/PDIF) the AN Dac was more analog sounding with more body and texture
To the music. If have had to pick a 2nd best it would be my Levinson No. 360S....also better at Redbook than the PS Audio Directstream Dac.
Which USB to SPDiF converter do you use? Have you tried others?
Michael
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I use a Sonicweld Diverter 24/96....I have tried others and so far this one has been the best. If I ever replace it it will be with the Berkeley Audio USB converter.
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Thank you!
I hadn’t known it existed till now. Between the website and a reviewer’s impression, this appears to be one serious converter (translator).
I suspect your AN DAC may produce much the same sound that I’ve been searching for lately. I must decide whether to buy a converter in order to continue to use my Man Mini as source, or buy a streamer/server instead. :scratch:
Michael
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APL DSD DAC built by Alex Paychev.Replaced my DIRECTSTREAM.PS Audio makes superb gear but the APL is just that much better.
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APL DSD DAC built by Alex Paychev.Replaced my DIRECTSTREAM.PS Audio makes superb gear but the APL is just that much better.
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Quote from: maplegrovemusic on 10 Jan 2019, 01:42 am
Exogal - Comet plus
+1
I'll +1 Johzel's +1
I think the Exogal Comet is a fantastic dac. In addition, it works great as a pre-amp so I can go direct from dac to amp. It has XLR and RCA outputs that work simultaneously so I can feed subwoofers direct from dac to plate amps. And, it has an excellent headphone output.
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I'll +1 Johzel's +1
I think the Exogal Comet is a fantastic dac. In addition, it works great as a pre-amp so I can go direct from dac to amp. It has XLR and RCA outputs that work simultaneously so I can feed subwoofers direct from dac to plate amps. And, it has an excellent headphone output.
I agree the Comet is a fine DAC, but get this.
I got the Digital Amplifier Company DAC DAC1 for like 900$
Vs the comet for like $3,000. It wasn’t even a contest. The DAC DAC blew me away.
Note I listened to many DACs prior to buying the Comet..
If you want to be blown away for the money and ultimately
For its musical truth cheers, try the DAC DAC.
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I agree the Comet is a fine DAC, but get this.
I got the Digital Amplifier Company DAC DAC1 for like 900$
Vs the comet for like $3,000. It wasn’t even a contest. The DAC DAC blew me away.
Note I listened to many DACs prior to buying the Comet..
If you want to be blown away for the money and ultimately
For its musical truth cheers, try the DAC DAC.
A lot of people here under estimates Tommy's talent. Tommy is a true audiophile that wants his equipment the best in SQ, not a me too company.
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Totaldac Twelve , I was pairing it with a Antipodes DX3 but now
I am using a Bel Canto e.One Streamer with a NAS and HD Plex 200W LPS
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I haven't looked at Dacs in years. I do mostly vinyl now, but my old Cal-Alph with Musical Concepts mods and 1960's Mullards still make me smile.
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Totaldac Twelve , I was pairing it with a Antipodes DX3 but now
I am using a Bel Canto e.One Streamer with a NAS and HD Plex 200W LPS
Interesting, so apparently you find the BC Streamer superior to the Antipodes... Congrats on your DAC, it's one of the best out there! The BC is a recent release so I haven't heard much about it, your impressions would be most appreciated!
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Mola Mola Tambaqui
If someone said to me: you can have any DAC you want, then the above would be my choice. Mola Mola is the best I have heard with an uncanny combination of extreme resolution, accurate musical timbre, and natural sound. As I cannot afford one, I am building a similar design, with a discrete DSD conversion engine, but I will do all the oversampling in software and just send high rate DSD to the DAC via Ethernet.
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If someone said to me: you can have any DAC you want, then the above would be my choice. Mola Mola is the best I have heard with an uncanny combination of extreme resolution, accurate musical timbre, and natural sound. As I cannot afford one, I am building a similar design, with a discrete DSD conversion engine, but I will do all the oversampling in software and just send high rate DSD to the DAC via Ethernet.
I like it. Good Luck on your build!
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Well, I went ahead and committed to a new DAC - a SW1X DAC III STD. I've spent the last couple months researching it and chatting with two owners of the same model - one of whom owns the same D Sachs amp and preamp that I own. My new DAC will be delivered to me a few days after I return to the States in March.
I haven't yet decided if I want the black or silver front panel. Edit: I decided on black. :thumb:
http://sw1xad.co.uk/product/sw1x-dac-iii/
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A lot of people here under estimates Tommy's talent. Tommy is a true audiophile that wants his equipment the best in SQ, not a me too company.
Couldn't agree with you more... His amps replaced my 2A3 SET amps that I had custom made and it wasn't even close to my ears. Good bye tubes and the hassles that come with owning them. Cheers!
I just came across this review... I have the first version. I could't agree more!!
https://theaudiobeatnik.com/something-sweet-from-the-digital-amplifier-company-reviewing-the-dac-dac-2-hs/
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MSB Tech Analog DAC.
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Schitt Bifrost MB.
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YggyA followed by YggyB last year completely transformed my listening to thousands of Redbook files. However, this is with file delivery via Dante Ethernet, NO USB.
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YggyA followed by YggyB last year completely transformed my listening to thousands of Redbook files. However, this is with file delivery via Dante Ethernet, NO USB.
Are you referring to the Schiit Yggdrasil?
How do you feed Dante to this specific DAC?
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Are you referring to the Schiit Yggdrasil?
How do you feed Dante to this specific DAC?
Yes.
Buy a Dante device (in my case Atterotech unDAES-O, $700). Buy Dante Virtual Soundcard $30 and load to Mac or PC. Load Dante Controller (free) to Mac or PC. Now the computer has "become" a Dante device and will "talk" to the unDAES-O. Ethernet cable from computer to unDAES-O, transformer coupled AES cable to Yggy.
Dante videos will talk you through setup on computer.
Nothingness that is beyond black background, true timbre, touch, texture, space and (perceived) hall sound. Enables Yggy to do everything it was made to do with the thousands of 16/44 files available.
Downside for some is no sample rate follow (set manually in Dante). For me (98% Redbook), Hi-Rez files aren't needed.
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Well, I went ahead and committed to a new DAC - a SW1X DAC III STD. I've spent the last couple months researching it and chatting with two owners of the same model - one of whom owns the same D Sachs amp and preamp that I own. My new DAC will be delivered to me a few days after I return to the States in March.
I haven't yet decided if I want the black or silver front panel. Edit: I decided on black. :thumb:
http://sw1xad.co.uk/product/sw1x-dac-iii/
excellent choice ,I’m currently listening to this in my references system.everything sound so real and organic. :thumb:
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Yes.
Buy a Dante device (in my case Atterotech unDAES-O, $700). Buy Dante Virtual Soundcard $30 and load to Mac or PC. Load Dante Controller (free) to Mac or PC. Now the computer has "become" a Dante device and will "talk" to the unDAES-O. Ethernet cable from computer to unDAES-O, transformer coupled AES cable to Yggy.
Dante videos will talk you through setup on computer.
Nothingness that is beyond black background, true timbre, touch, texture, space and (perceived) hall sound. Enables Yggy to do everything it was made to do with the thousands of 16/44 files available.
Downside for some is no sample rate follow (set manually in Dante). For me (98% Redbook), Hi-Rez files aren't needed.
Gefski,
Being an Yggy owner, I'm intrigued.
Currently I use JRiver on my PC and an ethernet connection to a Sonore Microrendu, then a Schiit EITR to convert USB to SPDIF to the Yggy. It sounds exceptionally good, and using my iPad for JRemote is extremely convenient for selecting and playing music. I'm curious if you feel the Atterotech unDAES-O solution would improve on my set-up. I know the Yggy to be capable of extremely fine sound - maybe untapped potential until fed by an optimimal source.
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Yes.
Buy a Dante device (in my case Atterotech unDAES-O, $700). Buy Dante Virtual Soundcard $30 and load to Mac or PC. Load Dante Controller (free) to Mac or PC. Now the computer has "become" a Dante device and will "talk" to the unDAES-O. Ethernet cable from computer to unDAES-O, transformer coupled AES cable to Yggy.
Dante videos will talk you through setup on computer.
Nothingness that is beyond black background, true timbre, touch, texture, space and (perceived) hall sound. Enables Yggy to do everything it was made to do with the thousands of 16/44 files available.
Downside for some is no sample rate follow (set manually in Dante). For me (98% Redbook), Hi-Rez files aren't needed.
I'm well known with the Dante ins & outs, but then you're not feeding the Schitt Dante (which I concluded after reading your post), you're feeding him AES...all clear now.
Enjoy your setup :wink:
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Well, I went ahead and committed to a new DAC - a SW1X DAC III STD. I've spent the last couple months researching it and chatting with two owners of the same model - one of whom owns the same D Sachs amp and preamp that I own. My new DAC will be delivered to me a few days after I return to the States in March.
I haven't yet decided if I want the black or silver front panel. Edit: I decided on black. :thumb:
http://sw1xad.co.uk/product/sw1x-dac-iii/
I just checked their website, excellent choice!
TDA1541 a 2nd generation Phillip DAC chip from the 80’s continues to find new admirers! New developments in implementation continue with this chip from DIYers, so much new development in its use is hard to keep up. Genuine chips are getting hard to find and price has sky rocketed for the s1 and s2 selected chips.
Don’t expect it to measure very well but will be an ear opener for those never heard a properly implemented TDA1541 dac.
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The one I own--Emotiva DC-1 Stealth. Purchased used, excellent as pre-amp/DAC into my VTA 120 Tube Amp....
Just sorry Emotiva can't seem to get the DC-2 out the door into market :cry:
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Yes.
Buy a Dante device (in my case Atterotech unDAES-O, $700). Buy Dante Virtual Soundcard $30 and load to Mac or PC. Load Dante Controller (free) to Mac or PC. Now the computer has "become" a Dante device and will "talk" to the unDAES-O. Ethernet cable from computer to unDAES-O, transformer coupled AES cable to Yggy.
Dante videos will talk you through setup on computer.
Nothingness that is beyond black background, true timbre, touch, texture, space and (perceived) hall sound. Enables Yggy to do everything it was made to do with the thousands of 16/44 files available.
Downside for some is no sample rate follow (set manually in Dante). For me (98% Redbook), Hi-Rez files aren't needed.
Gefski,
Being an Yggy owner, I'm intrigued.
Currently I use JRiver on my PC and an ethernet connection to a Sonore Microrendu, then a Schiit EITR to convert USB to SPDIF to the Yggy. It sounds exceptionally good, and using my iPad for JRemote is extremely convenient for selecting and playing music. I'm curious if you feel the Atterotech unDAES-O solution would improve on my set-up. I know the Yggy to be capable of extremely fine sound - maybe untapped potential until fed by an optimimal source.
No way to tell without comparing, but that Sonore MR setup is raved about compared to USB from PC to dac, so I doubt that my rig would give you meaningful improvements. I haven't listened to a Sonore setup at any of our meets in Seattle, but would like to.
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I pick up this cheap SMSL SU-8 Dac over the holiday.mine mine ,what a surprise how good this Dac sound. :o
The SMSL SU-8 Version 2 DAC is one of the current favorites at Audio Science Review (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?ewr-porta/)
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-su-8-version-2-balanced-dac.5433/ (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-su-8-version-2-balanced-dac.5433/)
Looking over the DAC's this guy has measured it is amazing how many well regarded brands measure so poorly.
The site is similar to the reviews written by Julian Hirsch in the old Stereo Review magazine, all measurements with no comments on persevered sound quality but still....
SINAD graph (signal above power of distortion and noise) for each DAC. It is the average of the two channels tested.
(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/schiit-jotunheim-akm4490-dac-headphone-amplifier-rca-sinad-measurements-png.20833/)
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interesting chart
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It's easy to get GREAT measurements as long as you're willing to use a shit-ton of negative feedback. Problem is that it'll sound pretty crappy. Which is why a modestly measuring device can sound better than a super great measuring device.
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It's easy to get GREAT measurements as long as you're willing to use a shit-ton of negative feedback. Problem is that it'll sound pretty crappy. Which is why a modestly measuring device can sound better than a super great measuring device.
That point is made in the fact that the $99.00 Schiit Modi scored 107 while the far better sounding $2,399 Schiit Yggdrasil scored 86. These scores are not a measure of sound quality.
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That point is made in the fact that the $99.00 Schiit Modi scored 107 while the far better sounding $2,399 Schiit Yggdrasil scored 86. These scores are not a measure of sound quality.
Then what's the point of the measurements?
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Measurements are for the folks who listen with their eyes...perhaps? :lol:
Joking aside, I think we all know many folks need measurements in order to make up their minds.
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Measurements are for the folks who listen with their eyes...perhaps? :lol:
Joking aside, I think we all know many folks need measurements in order to make up their minds.
We'd all like to have meaningful measurements to help us choose our audio gear, but I'm afraid that putting stock in charts like the one above will only lead to bad assumptions followed by bad choices.
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That point is made in the fact that the $99.00 Schiit Modi scored 107 while the far better sounding $2,399 Schiit Yggdrasil scored 86. These scores are not a measure of sound quality.
Schiit Yggdrasil review on Audio Science Review (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-schiit-yggdrasil-v2-dac.3607/):
"We immediately notice a few issues. On the FFT spectrum to the left of our 1 kHz tone (all others are noise/distortion), we see significant spikes at double the mains AC supply. This is created by the internal power supply and is bleeding into the output of the DAC.
"To the right, we see an awful lot of distortion spikes. They translate into poor SINAD of just 86 dB. This means that above the energy of distortions+noise, we only have 86 dB to work with. Let's remember that we need 93 dB for our CDs properly dithered."
Humans like the sound of distortion, if they didn't then low powered tube amps would disappear and all amps would be Class D. :bawl: Plus the amount of distortion measured probably can't be heard in most instances. In the case of the Yggdrasil I wouldn't be surprised if Ver. 2 has much lower distortion and improved power supply filtering making a good product even better.
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Even with tubes, it's not that simple. Take a 45 SET triode - it's perhaps the most linear tube around, and needs no feedback to sound good. On the other hand, take a pentode in push-pull configuration, it's inherently less linear than the triode, so you have to correct for that in the circuit. In the end, after correction, the pentode actually measures better than the triode. But it doesn't sound better, because it needed feedback to get to the "good" measurements.
Same with any other piece of gear - how are they getting their measurements? If it's starting out with an inherently non-linear device and then applying feedback to correct for that natively poor initial performance, you get exactly what I was talking about - a great measurement that sounds worse than something using less feedback (and hence measures worse).
Now, having said all that, I will also say that if the power supply measures badly, well there's NO excuse for that in the high end. Every piece of hifi gear should have an exceptional power supply - after all that's at the heart of what makes hi-fi actually hi-fi.
But even power supplies can be deceptive. For example, with my iFi iDSD Pro, the iFi designed laptop brick power supply measures better than the after-market linear power supply I got to use with it. But guess which one sounds better? Yeah, the linear power supply. So, even with PSUs, measurement matter but they aren't the whole story.
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You measure it I'll listen to it. Back to topic. :popcorn:
charles
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My favorite is the MHDT Lab Pagoda (PCM1704) followed by the dB Audio Labs Tranquility. I guess that puts me firmly in the NOS camp.
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ASR and its relationship with Schitt is well documented and discussed ad naseum on several sites.
Several engineers have refuted ASR's measurments on Schitt's stuff....
These measurements IMO are not accurate at all when it comes to really listening....
But hey, if you only look at one source as the end all to making a decision on buying stuff...buyer
beware....
Alex
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Over the past 18 months I have bought and sold (or returned) around 10 DACs at various price points. The Schiit Yggdrasil I bought recently is the only one that sounds [to me] like real music (if there is such a thing). No listener fatigue (a huge problem with all the others). It has a "tube-like" warmth that I've never experienced before in a DAC, and what's really incredible is that I'm hearing so many subtle new things in very familiar recordings. Yeah, we're all tired of the "veil being lifted" BS from the popular audio sites, but for me this purchase was a game changer. I've listened to Tears for Fears "The Seeds of Love" hundreds of times. I listened to it once a day during a 6-month Navy deployment in 1995! I didn't know until two weeks ago that the keyboards on songs I have listened to for almost 30 years were multi-layered! They always sounded one dimensional to me. What is really amazing is how good drums sound. Everything from cymbals to kick drums. They just sound fantastic! I'm listening to much more old-school jazz now because of this. Tyson nailed it a while back on a reply to a comment I made a few months ago in the Spatial Audio circle, he said "Now comes the fun part - re listening to all your favorite recordings. If you're anything like me, it'll do one other very interesting thing: allow you to understand and appreciate artists that were closed off before. I'm thinking of people like Bob Dylan and Janis Joplin. I respected what they did, but their music didn't really resonate with me. Part of that was the recordings are very challenging to reproduce well. But with speakers like the X2s (and Super 7s), the recording itself stops being a barrier. That's pretty damn cool." He was commenting on my X2 loudspeakers, but that could also be applied to this DAC. I started re-listening to Tom Waits for the first time in years and finally, I get it. His music always sounded like a joke to me. Like Buster Poindexter or some kind of early SNL sketch that some thought was real but in reality was a parody. Now I'm starting to get it and my appreciation of music outside of my comfort zone is increasing daily. I'm finally happy with a DAC! Until the next best thing... 8)
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ASR and its relationship with Schitt is well documented and discussed ad naseum on several sites.
I had no idea ASR's measurements were so controversial until the Schiit Yggdrasil was mentioned, then I had to read the review. I was more focused on how well the $250 SMSL SU-8 Version 2 DAC did along with two positive reviews by AC members.
My favorite DAC is the Van Alstine FET Valve Hybrid DAC (discontinued). A few years ago we compared the Van Alstine DAC to the more expensive PS Audio PerfectWave MkII DAC in two different systems and could hear zero differences. The only way we could hear a difference was to use the digital filters built into the PerfectWave, gritty digital recordings made in the early days can be ever so slightly altered to make them listenable. If a FET Valve Hybrid DAC ever shows up used on the Van Alstine site snatch it up quick, it doesn't do DSD or super high res like current models but I ain't got any of that esoteric stuff anyway.
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Kind of a foolish question, being your "favorite" is what you are using. :duh:
Using a Yggdrasil updated now and for the last three years.
Just excellent as mentioned the drums and cymbols no fatigue ever.
Not interested in the least bit in measurements especially ASR the guy is a buffoon!
The best thing I did for my system by far was treat the room.
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My current DAC of choice is an Oppo Sonica DAC which I use to play from my digital library on a NAS and stream from Spotify.
Im happy with the Sonica but its that time of year where I catch a case of Upgraditus and have been reading up on the following DACS:
NAD C658
PS Audio Direct Stream Junior
NuPrime Evolution
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It's easy to get GREAT measurements as long as you're willing to use a shit-ton of negative feedback. Problem is that it'll sound pretty crappy. Which is why a modestly measuring device can sound better than a super great measuring device.
More importantly, we must remember there is no protocol for these measurements. There is no preestablished methodology. There's no degree, no field of study, no organized set of principles. It's literally someone with an expensive piece of gear making it up as he goes along, just like the rest of us.
My favorite DAC is whatever I'm taking apart at the moment. These days, it's the Fiio D03k...
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My current DAC of choice is an Oppo Sonica DAC which I use to play from my digital library on a NAS and stream from Spotify.
Im happy with the Sonica but its that time of year where I catch a case of Upgraditus and have been reading up on the following DACS:
NAD C658
PS Audio Direct Stream Junior
NuPrime Evolution
Those are 3 good ones
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Previous DAC was an Adcom DA700 (added antistatic foam fill, 110Hz AC instead of 60Hz) I paid $250 for it used.
After many happy years of using the Adcom, I upgraded to a Marantz SA-10 to use primarily as a DAC even though it is a SACD player. I run two five disc changers into the SA-10. one via Toslink, One via RCA SPDIF. And all my CD playback is via one of the changers to the SA-10 as DAC.
(I still run the five disc changers at AC 110Hz, but the Marantz at standard 60Hz due to warranty concern.)
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My current DAC of choice is an Oppo Sonica DAC which I use to play from my digital library on a NAS and stream from Spotify.
Im happy with the Sonica but its that time of year where I catch a case of Upgraditus and have been reading up on the following DACS:
NAD C658
PS Audio Direct Stream Junior
NuPrime Evolution
You're in my wheelhouse. Sonica of course is no longer made, too bad, but Oppo has pulled out without warning before. And it was just revealed that production of my DirectStream Junior (DSJ) will be halted. Probably due to parts availability and it doesn't fit into their product lines. :( Haven't kept up with NuPrime Evolution discussion here and C658 is still too new to have much feedback on it.
I bought the DSJ for it's manufacturer's strong historic, R&D, and support background; streamer feature; firmware upgrades; and frankly the discounted price but dealing with the company has been very comfortable (a family feel). But if you're an annual DAC buyer and don't want to waste money I'd look at lower priced stuff, like the $500 Topping DX7s. It better reflects modern DAC realities of ever changing/improving performance in a reasonable well made piece without over investment in quickly depreciating stuff from top heavy old school manufacturers.
Alternatives to your listing IMO should include RME ADI-2, a professional German DAC/preamp/headphone amp ($1100) and Soekris 1541 Danish DAC/preamp/headphone amp ($1425, 27 bit R2R design). Both offer fully balanced design with RCA outputs as well in half width cabinets. Another set of options are the impressive Denafrips DACs prices starting at $657 USD.
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You're in my wheelhouse. Sonica of course is no longer made, too bad, but Oppo has pulled out without warning before. And it was just revealed that production of my DirectStream Junior (DSJ) will be halted. Probably due to parts availability and it doesn't fit into their product lines. :( Haven't kept up with NuPrime Evolution discussion here and C658 is still too new to have much feedback on it.
I bought the DSJ for it's manufacturer's strong historic, R&D, and support background; streamer feature; firmware upgrades; and frankly the discounted price but dealing with the company has been very comfortable (a family feel). But if you're an annual DAC buyer and don't want to waste money I'd look at lower priced stuff, like the $500 Topping DX7s. It better reflects modern DAC realities of ever changing/improving performance in a reasonable well made piece without over investment in quickly depreciating stuff from top heavy old school manufacturers.
Alternatives to your listing IMO should include RME ADI-2, a professional German DAC/preamp/headphone amp ($1100) and Soekris 1541 Danish DAC/preamp/headphone amp ($1425, 27 bit R2R design). Both offer fully balanced design with RCA outputs as well in half width cabinets. Another set of options are the impressive Denafrips DACs prices starting at $657 USD.
Thanks for the recommendations. Wouldn’t say I purchase DACs yearly but I do tend to look for new toys this time of year.
I ended up ordering the NAD C658 which should be here Thursday.
I’m hoping to connect the NAD directly to my Stellar AMPs XLR inputs for two channel listening and connect RCA preout from my Marantz 8805 for the HT Fronts to Line In of the NAD which has a bypass setting to avoid coverting signal to digital then back to analog. The Sonica sounds great connected directly to my amps and has Line In as well but always converts the RCA Aux Line In to digital then back to analog for some reason which isn’t what I want. The NAD can also play MQA from Tidal which I want to test out as well although have heard mixed results.
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Thanks for the recommendations. Wouldn’t say I purchase DACs yearly but I do tend to look for new toys this time of year.
I ended up ordering the NAD C658 which should be here Thursday.
I’m hoping to connect the NAD directly to my Stellar AMPs XLR inputs for two channel listening and connect RCA preout from my Marantz 8805 for the HT Fronts to Line In of the NAD which has a bypass setting to avoid coverting signal to digital then back to analog. The Sonica sounds great connected directly to my amps and has Line In as well but always converts the RCA Aux Line In to digital then back to analog for some reason which isn’t what I want. The NAD can also play MQA from Tidal which I want to test out as well although have heard mixed results.
Please do keep us (me) informed as to your impressions of the NAD C658. From little I've found online its a bit of a mixed bag: chip is an ESS oddball (not 9038 as I'd expect at this price), Dirac not yet available, confusion regarding subwoofer outputs (dual mono or stereo), subwoofer output locked into 80 Hz low pass with unknown crossover slope, and sound quality comparisons ranging from Masters series down to Node 2. Am considering taking my DSJ into the "local" NAD shop to compare. What I'd really like to see from NAD is a streaming preamp version of their very new $2500 M10 streaming integrated amp.
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Please do keep us (me) informed as to your impressions of the NAD C658. From little I've found online its a bit of a mixed bag: chip is an ESS oddball (not 9038 as I'd expect at this price), Dirac not yet available, confusion regarding subwoofer outputs (dual mono or stereo), subwoofer output locked into 80 Hz low pass with unknown crossover slope, and sound quality comparisons ranging from Masters series down to Node 2. Am considering taking my DSJ into the "local" NAD shop to compare. What I'd really like to see from NAD is a streaming preamp version of their very new $2500 M10 streaming integrated amp.
Unfortunately the shipping gods were not on my side as my package has been stuck in Ohio since 4AM yesterday morning. FedEx can’t say why but appears to be weather related. Hoping to get tomorrow but who knows at this point.
I was also surprised the NAD didn’t include the 9038 and instead includes new 9028 which is an upgrade to the 9018. Some of the pics online do show mono sub out but the manual shows stereo sub out which I think was confirmed on another board. Dirac not available yet but supposedefly coming sooner than later.
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Here is a good "article" or technical discussion/education on the technical side of dac stuff from a guy I much respect "atomicbob" his moniker is "dScope yoda"...and I have had several converstations with Bob over the past year and I find him extremely knowledgeable in this area of how dacs measure and perform.
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/tutorial-lies-damn-lies-and-usb-dac-technical-measurements.5770/
Bob also listens to dacs and measurements are not the end all etc....
I was very surprised when he was measuring and using the Schitt, Bifrost, Gungnir and Yggdrasil...and thinks the Bifrost is really an exceptional dac....even thought the higher cost Yggy is abit "better"...it goes to show you dont need to spend megabucks to have a really great performing dac...
Alex
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All in the ears of the beholder. Different storkes for different folks, that's why there is chocolate and vanilla ice cream.
All of the above has truth.
Especially the FACT that all of us hear our music in a different light.
My dac of choice is the Audionote 4.1LE tube dac.
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Please do keep us (me) informed as to your impressions of the NAD C658. From little I've found online its a bit of a mixed bag: chip is an ESS oddball (not 9038 as I'd expect at this price), Dirac not yet available, confusion regarding subwoofer outputs (dual mono or stereo), subwoofer output locked into 80 Hz low pass with unknown crossover slope, and sound quality comparisons ranging from Masters series down to Node 2. Am considering taking my DSJ into the "local" NAD shop to compare. What I'd really like to see from NAD is a streaming preamp version of their very new $2500 M10 streaming integrated amp.
What a bummer. I was keen to find out more about this unit but have no idea why NAD would not use a state of the art chip. I know NAD is not regarded as a true top tier product but with everything the C658 offered and given its new launch, I was hopeful it would be superior to the Mytek Stereo DSD 192 I am currently using. I have had the Mytek for a bit over 5 years and assume DAC technology has moved enough that it is worth spending $1500-$2500 once again. As well, all the added features of the C658 would allow me to eliminate quite a few other pieces (Squeezebox Touch, PreAmp, possibly my Laptop?) but I am starting to feel they may have laid an egg here.
There is also the ELAC DDP-2 but no information on the sound of it either. Any thoughts here?
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I received my NAD C 658 yesterday and was able to get it setup although not as plug as play as devices should be these days but that was mostly due to me not being familiar with BluOS. The NAD and or BluOS is not UPnP or DLNA compatible and instead uses SMB which I don't normally use. It can access folder shares though which I was able to setup on my NAS although the share had to be typed in as the NAD couldn't find it on its own.
I set this up initially with XLR out directly to my mono amps and as Ive read elsewhere it was a little bright out of the box. I let it play all night and did some more testing today with it connected to my Marantz 8805 by both XLR and RCA Unbalanced and to my surprise RCA Unbalanced sounds better and is even a few dB louder than XLR which is the exact opposite from other devices Ive had. The only explanation I can think of is that the XLR Preouts on this NAD are not fully balanced but I haven't been able to find that answer so I emailed NAD. I currently have the NAD connected by RCA to 7.1 Inputs on the Marantz and will leave it like this through the weekend while I get some more hours on it.
On another note I am happy to report that the Analog Bypass does work which is a nice feature allowing you to connect the NAD directly to your amp(s) and then connect Front RCA Preouts from AVR to Line Input on the NAD to route your fronts through the NAD to your amps without any conversion taking place. I watched Bohemian Rhapsody this way and didn't notice any issues or feel like I was missing anything.
As of now my Oppo Sonica is still my preferred DAC but I like the features that the NAD offers
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Give the NAD at least 300 hours to break in, maybe even more.
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Over the past few years I have used a Stello Dac, Bryston, a NAD M51, a Schiit Yggdrasil version 1, a Topping Dx7s and currently use a Schiit Yggdrasil version 2. In between I auditioned a Bricasti M1. The Yggy 2 is my current DAC and one I will continue to use for quite a while.....However, it is always tempting to try something different. Tom
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Tom, same boat. Have an Expgal Comet but keep reading about all the crop of R2R ladder DACs and they do DSD even. The Denafrios Terminator DAC has piqued my interest. Had considered Lampizator but didn’t want to deal with the tubes.
-dave
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Bricasti M1SE.
Audio chain: Roon Rock -> Bricasti M5 streamer -> Bricasti M1SE -> Van Alstine SET 120 Amp
What I love about the Bricasti M1SE (i) combines great detail and resolution with musicality. Fantastic for Classical, and Good for rock/pop/jazz too. (ii) directly feeds the amp (sounds slightly better than using my van alstine preamp) (iii) RCA/XLR outputs
also drive my Sennheiser 650 headphones. This seems to be an undocumented feature. *Much* better sound than my $500 Chord Mojo. (iv) Has custom built in digital filters to tune the sound. I have settled on Minimum 2 filter.
Bricasti customer support is good too.
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Sent the NAD C658 back today. It’s a decent DAC but expected more from the price point especially from the Balanced Preouts which I’m still convinced are not fully balanced although never confirmed since NAD never responded to me.
Oppo Sonica is still my DAC of choice
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Has anyone tried the gustard dacs yet. I am considering trying the x26 out
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I love my DAC from Wyred4Sound. It's now upgraded to the W4S DAC-2v2 SE .
The sound is fantastic and it works very well.
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Just over the horizon is what has pushed me to keep searching for the next DAC to take me to the next level...to achieve an analog SQ without going the TT or reel to reel route.
Thanks for mentioning the Tranquility and NOS DACs, borism. :thumb:
The TDA1543 DAC chip + whatever Eric paired it to in my dB Audio Labs Tranquility SE DAC opened up to me the wonderful world of NOS DAC sound. I love the music that NOS DACs deliver. This is the architecture - the sound - that I want in my system. The vast majority of the music that I listen to is Redbook CD quality. I don't need to chase after this or that DSD or MQA capable DAC. [I'm certainly not criticizing anyone for wanting/owning DSD/MQA capable DACs. I'm merely declaring my preference.]
I really like my Tranquility SE DAC - so much so that I brought it to Taiwan to listen to while I'm here. I have every intention of leaving it here to await my return next winter. Doing so means I must find a replacement for it in the States. The replacement will be another NOS DAC that I've been researching for the last few months. Before I stumbled upon the Tranquility DAC, I had thought for sure that my next DAC would be either the Denafrips Terminator or the Lampizator Atlantic. With the Tranquility, I 'graduated' to a new level of appreciation. It opened my eyes to what other NOS DACs could offer me. [I just reread the last two sentences, and decided one could misread them to think I'm claiming the Tranquility is better than the Lampi or Terminator. I am not making this claim. I never compared the Terminator to my Tranquility. I did compare my Tranquility to gregfisk's Lampi, and the Lampi won, but it costs $3000(?) more than my Tranquility.]
Thanks to all for their input. It's very informational to know what everyone likes.
I bought two 1541 chip based NOS Dac's. The MHDT Orchid and Abbas Dac 2.1. MHDT is in Taiwan and the Abbas came from Ukraine. Both are very good and different enough for me to keep both. Both are worth checking out.
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The DAC setup in the Devialet Expert/Expert Pro is perhaps the best I've come across. The reproduction is just incredible.