AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Sonic Craft => Topic started by: newguy52811 on 20 Feb 2015, 07:16 pm
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I have the Fluance XLHTB 5.1 setup, and the speakers don't really match vocal wise and have different valued capacitors in them. Is it better to replace the same valued capacitor in each of the speakers and have the Yamaha equalizer per se fix it, or would you try to get the same valued capacitors for each speaker. As you can see I'm starting out as a DIY guy. I'm use to THX speakers and these speakers are cheap that I have that is all I could afford. The Center has a really big lisp that sounds like the tweeter is blown even tho I know it's not, just want to adjust the crossovers to make it sound more natural. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!
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I would like to add that they are 1st order crossovers. C1, and L1's they have. I thought about getting Erse or Dayton Crossovers, and then upgrading the capacitors to Sonicap, or a mix. My wife gave me a budget of $500 for the 5 speakers as I have to buy her a new Wii... lol, so am not sure what to do. In response to that I'm use to THX speakers, as my dad has M&K speakers as they use polypropylene caps, hence why I feel they are leagues ahead of these. The Fluance are using electrolytic caps. Yuck! Any budget constraint advice on how to get them to sound nice would be awesome. :)
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While waiting for cap advice I suggest making felt or foam tweeter surrounds to control the highs, the cost is close to zero and they will definitely improve your sound.
(http://www.wghwoodworking.com/av/tweeter_defraction_control.jpg)
Wayne
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I thought about doing that as M&K speakers use foam around the tweeters, just didn't know if it would make a difference as these are MTM speakers.
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Thank you for your post. :D
Can you be more specific? Which speakers have which values? Do they all seem to be the same brand, value, and voltage?
While caps will certainly influence the sound of the speaker (much more than many are aware), they can not overcome a bad design. These may be a good design, but I am not familiar with them. It is also possible to have tweeter(s) that operate, but are not operating correctly. I must say that the first thing that comes to mind when you say "lisp" and "single cap", is poor XO design. It is possible that the tweeter is getting too close to resonance, and/or moving well past its linear range. On one other note, the center channel used in HT mainly covers dialog. I often treat it different from the L/R front to keep voices natural but most intelligible. This can be different from the musical presentation desired from the L/R. The same treatment to the center can render vocals chesty, etc...
Oddly enough, I have seen many bad capacitors in relatively new speakers. That is a possibility as well.
Besides curing the lisp, are you looking for any other sonic characteristics? Warmth, richness, detail, transparency, ...? Besides posting the values, any chance of pictures (of the XO)?
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I thought about doing that as M&K speakers use foam around the tweeters, just didn't know if it would make a difference as these are MTM speakers.
It would make a difference if you had a diffraction problem, but I do not think it will help your problem at hand. Fix your problems first, then you might find some pleasing results in other mods.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115412)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115414)
I really can't get much of a screen shot thro the speakers, but yeah, looking for more clarity and depth what I can get cheaply. I was thinking about getting the Sonicap Gen I's.
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Thank you for your post. :D
Can you be more specific? Which speakers have which values? Do they all seem to be the same brand, value, and voltage?
While caps will certainly influence the sound of the speaker (much more than many are aware), they can not overcome a bad design. These may be a good design, but I am not familiar with them. It is also possible to have tweeter(s) that operate, but are not operating correctly. I must say that the first thing that comes to mind when you say "lisp" and "single cap", is poor XO design. It is possible that the tweeter is getting too close to resonance, and/or moving well past its linear range. On one other note, the center channel used in HT mainly covers dialog. I often treat it different from the L/R front to keep voices natural but most intelligible. This can be different from the musical presentation desired from the L/R. The same treatment to the center can render vocals chesty, etc...
Oddly enough, I have seen many bad capacitors in relatively new speakers. That is a possibility as well.
Besides curing the lisp, are you looking for any other sonic characteristics? Warmth, richness, detail, transparency, ...? Besides posting the values, any chance of pictures (of the XO)?
The center speaker has a 6.8uf cap in it, and the Surrounding has a 3.3uf cap on high end. They are beautiful looking speakers for sure, but just am not 100% sure on to replace the caps like for like or try to match them and get better sound...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115415)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115418)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115419)
Pics of the Surround speaker crossover.
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Yep, can't see in the box too well, but I do see a resistor and potential something else??
Based on no more than you know or have to work with, I could not advise just up and changing values. Even though, going from a 6.8uF to 3.3uF on the center tweet might help that driver with resonance. But you can not just up and change values on a well designed speaker (of which we have no idea what we have here).
Make sure that there is only a cap, coil, and resistor in there. On the surrounds, use these:http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/kimber-kap-33uf-200vdc-p-4652 (http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/kimber-kap-33uf-200vdc-p-4652). On the center, use a Sonicap G1. Replace all the resistors with Mills 12 watt: http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/mills-12-watt-c-29_53_63 (http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/mills-12-watt-c-29_53_63). If you do not have solder, this will make easy work of it: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/cardas-solder-qe-24ft-p-521 (http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/cardas-solder-qe-24ft-p-521). These recommendations are based on your budget and desired results. As far as you were able to translate to me... If you decide to experiment with the center from here, it will be a single cap. It will be cheap, and you will have a new bench mark to work from. What you have now leaves you in the unknown.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115418)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115419)
Pics of the Surround speaker crossover.
Looks like we have more going on here. I'd recommend removing the XOs altogether. You are going to have to do this at some point. To be clear, is it only the center with the lisp?
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I want to make them all sound good. But they all pretty much sound like people are eating the microphone, so you would recommend a new crossover completely?
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Never said that :scratch: Besides, your budget would not allow for it. I do not know exactly what the budget is out side of "cheap"... Above all, I'm not sure the speakers are worth such an investment.
Where are we at on removing those XOs? It would help to know where we are at :wink:
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On my way to work right now, and work for the next 4 days, are you wanting to get pics of the full crossover? It will be next week when I have time to take them out. Do you believe that upgrading the caps of right now would make it sound better or would it take better speakers as well?
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As I have said above, caps will certainly influence the sound of the speaker (much more than many are aware). Yes, they will improve them. Right now, I do not know much about your XOs. You seem to be in the dark too. Your picture are revealing more than you have told me.
No rush. Once you have them out, take detailed pics of both sides. If we can not figure it out that way, you can mail one of each to me. We will evaluate, measure, and draw a schematic free of charge. You will have no obligation outside of return shipping.
BTW, are all the surrounds MTM floor standers? How about a pic of the center?
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115424)
The Surround is TM. I don't have a picture of the Center yet.
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As I have said above, caps will certainly influence the sound of the speaker (much more than many are aware). Yes, they will improve them. Right now, I do not know much about your XOs. You seem to be in the dark too. Your picture are revealing more than you have told me.
No rush. Once you have them out, take detailed pics of both sides. If we can not figure it out that way, you can mail one of each to me. We will evaluate, measure, and draw a schematic free of charge. You will have no obligation outside of return shipping.
BTW, are all the surrounds MTM floor standers? How about a pic of the center?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115443)
Here is the pic of the Center. I guess I didn't realize I was talking to the president of SonicCraft either... :)
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The crossover in the picture is using decent air-cored inductors, but the capacitors look cheap. Instead of changing the values, replace them with something quality. Even the cheapest MKP's from M-cap would beat these. find a friendly shop that allows you to try different values, start with same values as they are, just do not solder them in, if you intend to change them, use clips.
Also a piece of foam around the HF driver is not going to do anything. Try gluing immitation leather (or real!) on the entire front face, as used on Sonus Faber speakers, it looks better, and has more effect, but only if you are suffering refraction, otherwise leave it alone.
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Even the cheapest MKP's from M-cap would beat these.
You have to be careful here. While they would be more detailed, and have a longer life, they would be harsh and edgy. Those are basically SCRs...like Solen. At least the electrolytics side towards the dark. Many have learned this lesson. You see their posts, "I love the detail, but I hate to listen to them". Or, they love the detail, but they are back working on them a few weeks/months later. Sometimes, you see them up for sale in short order. I suppose some just live with it not knowing any better, but I definitely do not recommend the cheapest Mcap MKP for anything other than budget lowpass shunts (read this as large value LP shunts).
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The crossover in the picture is using decent air-cored inductors, but the capacitors look cheap. Instead of changing the values, replace them with something quality. Even the cheapest MKP's from M-cap would beat these. find a friendly shop that allows you to try different values, start with same values as they are, just do not solder them in, if you intend to change them, use clips.
Also a piece of foam around the HF driver is not going to do anything. Try gluing immitation leather (or real!) on the entire front face, as used on Sonus Faber speakers, it looks better, and has more effect, but only if you are suffering refraction, otherwise leave it alone.
One problem I may be experiencing is the fact that they are MTM's and that the tweeter is in between midranges and I'm not use to it. From what I read is that a MTM design is more simplistic in sound, and they do filter Piano sounds more realistic that a TM speaker cause of the lobe tilting effect. :) My car has the Pioneer tweeters on the side, and it's great for loud music and all. :) The reason why I choose these is because the we're the cheapest, good looking speakers I could find at the time, and now that I got a little tax return, I want to up the ante with them.
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You have to be careful here. While they would be more detailed, and have a longer life, they would be harsh and edgy. Those are basically SCRs...like Solen. At least the electrolytics side towards the dark. . . .
There's truth in what you are saying, however, it is not the fault of the capacitors, they will highlight flaws within the system, that so far been masked.
It's similar to a spoty face (but otherwise pretty) girl, who is partly veiled, if you remove her veil, you see the spots and her beauty better.
I know, I know - some are better left with veil on! :wink:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115512)
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Great picture and analogy. However, I can not agree. Nor is this "the chicken and the egg". While darker caps do mask issues, that cap is bright and edgy (harsh)...period. And, if a speaker has an issue that "darker" is covering, you will not find anyone on a budget who wishes to uncover it :wink:
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OK I am not arguing that 'that capacitor' are the way forward here.
I said "even cheaper M-caps beat . . . " -
I am personally a fan of Obbligato caps, but they cost a lot more, M-caps don't do anything for me, but I can not refute their basic quality & availability.
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OK I am not arguing that 'that capacitor' are the way forward here.
I said "even cheaper M-caps beat . . . " -
I am personally a fan of Obbligato caps, but they cost a lot more, M-caps don't do anything for me, but I can not refute their basic quality & availability.
Oh...ah I'm not trying to argue with you regarding this situation. Especially, when we do not even know what our situation is yet :wink: The reason I took issue with your statement was because a lot of people believe this. They will take a vintage (or not) speaker, and replace the caps with cheap film caps...because they are better. The detail comes up, but they don't like the way they sound. This is not merely the difference in ESR. This is one of the reason you like the gato. Warmer...a little richer...
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Before upgrading the existing crossover just try a different speaker first. Then you can determine the actual cause of your displeasure. If the different speaker has similar results look elsewhere.
If it is the speaker then consider an all new one and an outboard one as well. You could try different caps however a PITA and could be costly as one cannot return caps.
Just changing caps sometimes reveals other issues. If anything change the the resistor first on the tweeter especially if sand cast are used. Do not change values either as the drivers may not like that. Have fun.
charles
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I was trying to figure out, if I do upgrade the capacitors, will these speakers sound any different. I mean they are soft domes just like M&K's but they don't have "High end" specifications of like heat sinks, etc.... Hopefully I get time this weekend.
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This will not be as chance as all these opinions would lead you to believe. I do not want to speak for you, but based on my experience with customers, you are not willing to go for a ride on your current speakers and then spend multiples more than your initial budget to do it again. You are after potential improvement without buying more speakers. You would like as much improvement as possible without approaching the price of "more" speakers. I purposely dragged this thread/process out for the benefit of those that come after you. I'm going to switch gears. How are we coming on getting those XOs removed?
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Will be this weekend yet, won't get a chance to do it this week as I work all week leading up to the weekend... :x :cry:
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This will not be as chance as all these opinions would lead you to believe. I do not want to speak for you, but based on my experience with customers, you are not willing to go for a ride on your current speakers and then spend multiples more than your initial budget to do it again. You are after potential improvement without buying more speakers. You would like as much improvement as possible without approaching the price of "more" speakers. I purposely dragged this thread/process out for the benefit of those that come after you. I'm going to switch gears. How are we coming on getting those XOs removed?
Also, to further validate your point. I did find a YouTube video of a guy who upgraded his capacitors in Radio Shack speakers. I guess first and foremost, if people are willing to go to the extent of upgrading capacitors in a Radio Shack speaker. Why, I dunno? Then there's a lot of truth behind upgrading the capacitors of these things. The link: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn2vdndLlIc
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if people are willing to go to the extent of upgrading capacitors in a Radio Shack speaker. Why, I dunno? Then there's a lot of truth behind upgrading the capacitors of these things.
Well I dabble with my equipment too, for fun! :scratch:
That does not mean, my equipment is better afterwards, but it is fun to do so, don't loose sight of that.
If it is just better sound you are after, you are better off listening to good advice given here, and replace them, but what's the fun in that?
Most manufacturers bear into account the quality and character of the components they use, to get to the final product, if you change some, you will get a different sound, you may like it, you may not. If we believe we know better than the designers, well then . . . .
But sometimes, only sometimes, a certain product does have a certain shortcoming that can be fixed, only because the manufacturing budget did not allow for those better components, so if you think we can improve a product for a few cents, I doubt it.
I personally did upgrade the inductors (bar one), resistors and capacitors on my Sonus Faber - Grand Piano's, and I think they sound a lot better, but it cost me over £200, and a fair bit labour.
remember you are doing it for fun too, if all else fails, you learn something, and you will have fun.
Happy upgrading.
P.S. see my other post regarding my recent upgrade on a cheapo DAC I picked up on eBay :
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132635.msg1406192#msg1406192
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Well... I will be sending the Crossovers to Jeff to do the upgrade as soon I get them taken apart this weekend. I'm hoping he can do a reasonable upgrade for around $150 a piece. Can you answer me, I guess given that you spent $200 on those, do they compare to any other high end speaker. I haven't heard of your brand before. But, do they compare sound wise to M&K's or B&W's, Kefs, Paradigms, Thiel, etc...?
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£200, not dollars ( uk pound sterling - about $300).
Sonus Faber is an Italian high end manufacturer
http://sonusfaber.com/en-us/home-page
I chose my component values exactly as spec, I used Jantzen wax aircored foil inductors, Jantzen resitors and Obbligato capacitors. The inductors were cutom wound to my values. I kept the bigger inductor feeding the second bass driver, it was already top notch.
Sonus Faber, indeed does use similar components on it's higher grade speakers.
After the upgrade they sound like themselves, just better, more revealing - I could not compare them with another speaker.
By upgrading, you never turn a Toyota into Porsche!
You may turn it into a Lexus, if you're lucky.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115552)
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Interesting.... I know that there is probably a limit you can put on with just replacing capacitors and such. I'm not asking to turn a lemon into gold. Maybe turn into silver. ;)
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This will not be as chance as all these opinions would lead you to believe. I do not want to speak for you, but based on my experience with customers, you are not willing to go for a ride on your current speakers and then spend multiples more than your initial budget to do it again. You are after potential improvement without buying more speakers. You would like as much improvement as possible without approaching the price of "more" speakers. I purposely dragged this thread/process out for the benefit of those that come after you. I'm going to switch gears. How are we coming on getting those XOs removed?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115572)
The crossover (above left pic) is from a two-way bookshelf speaker system we have previously reviewed. The speaker system employs a stiff cone driver which has no crossover circuit (namely a LPF) to limit its bandwidth to reduce its audible break up modes at higher frequencies. The manufacturer chose to use an electrolytic capacitor as a measure of cost savings at the expense of performance as these parts have higher resistance and performance variances than quality and more costly poly designs. This is bottom of the barrel crossover design unbecoming of any serious loudspeaker design, despite the claims of “science and research” behind its products. At low power levels these speakers don't sound bad but once the volume is cranked up, audible driver break up was identified by our panel of listeners in blind comparisons. Quote from: http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/crossovers
Last line pretty much says it all, sounds alright not turned up, but when turned up. Huge audio disruption.
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Apples to oranges. First, you do not have a xo like the poor one exampled in the pic above. Well...outside of the electrolytics. Second, many things can cause this...like cabinet resonances, etc... I will cover this after we get a closer look at the XOs. Again, lets not put the cart before the horse. Evaluation will not cost you anything outside of shipping. We could speculate all week.
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Apples to oranges. First, you do not have a xo like the poor one exampled in the pic above. Well...outside of the electrolytics. Second, many things can cause this...like cabinet resonances, etc... I will cover this after we get a closer look at the XOs. Again, lets not put the cart before the horse. Evaluation will not cost you anything outside of shipping. We could speculate all week.
I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, I'm not the only one who had notice this. Before I reached out to you, I researched to see if anyone else had this problem, and they do.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115595)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115596)
Its on an Amazon review: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/reviews/B00AQL9B2G/ref=mw_dp_cr
Others say that, they can finally hear the voices so clearly, but it's to tinty and lispy. He I believe was gonna junk the crossover hence why I didn't know what to do... I've been working all week covering my co-workers that had emergency's. I unfortunately work in the "cut throat" restaurant business. I want a full day off to get the crossovers out, cause I don't want to rush and break them so I can send them to you. If I didn't fully believe that it was the crossovers, I'd probably try other things. Of course there's no backing behind the tweeter, so sound could be bouncing around in there but that's something I can always do if it's cheap. :)
As I said, the main reason why I bought these as they were beautiful and cheap. My wife and I bought our very first house in December, and needed the 4K TV and surround sound with it. Yes, she got a Xbox One yesterday. It doesn't look to shabby here:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115597)
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Apples to oranges. First, you do not have a xo like the poor one exampled in the pic above. Well...outside of the electrolytics. Second, many things can cause this...like cabinet resonances, etc... I will cover this after we get a closer look at the XOs. Again, lets not put the cart before the horse. Evaluation will not cost you anything outside of shipping. We could speculate all week.
Reading the review, sounds like he also replaced the drivers, but if you don't believe otherwise. I'm gonna keep them, because I can't afford it right now and if we can make the crossover stable enough with them. It'll be all the better. :) My name is Michael btw... ;)
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I'm gonna let you in on a little secret
Why was it a secret?
I'm not the only one who had notice this. Before I reached out to you, I researched to see if anyone else had this problem, and they do.
And you only mention this now? You started out asking me if the Sonicap was bi-polar or non-polar. Then you asked me if you should make all the cap values on the tweeters the same, or use a Yamaha EQ to straighten out the sound. You finished by telling me that you just wanted to adjust the XO to sound more natural. That would have been a great time to mention the rest.
Others say that, they can finally hear the voices so clearly, but it's to tinty and lispy.
Why would you buy them then? No return them after you heard them? I guess since you keep telling me all you were interested in was cheap and pretty, it is a win/win. The fact that they sound bad is a distant third...
He I believe was gonna junk the crossover hence why I didn't know what to do...
I find it odd that someone who can measure a speaker, and has good command of LspCAD would ever own, much less purchase, a set of these speakers :roll: At best, he was working on them for someone else. Otherwise, it would be like me purchasing a set. I further suspect he selling his products or services. Nothing wrong with that, but it does make his review a bit disingenuous. BTW, congrats on the new home :)
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Reading the review, sounds like he also replaced the drivers, but if you don't believe otherwise. I'm gonna keep them, because I can't afford it right now and if we can make the crossover stable enough with them. It'll be all the better. :) My name is Michael btw... ;)
He said he did, but is that really even an option for you? Replace the drivers, and redesign the XO for the new drivers...really?? By replacing the caps and resistors, and adding a superior damping material to the cabinets, those speakers will sound night and day different, but I do not plan on redesigning the XOs. That would require you shipping me the speaker. Shipping would be considerable, and the cost of my labor would be more. Read that as out of your budget.
Yes, Michael, but is your last name Schmitt?
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Yes. :)
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Why was it a secret?
And you only mention this now? You started out asking me if the Sonicap was bi-polar or non-polar. Then you asked me if you should make all the cap values on the tweeters the same, or use a Yamaha EQ to straighten out the sound. You finished by telling me that you just wanted to adjust the XO to sound more natural. That would have been a great time to mention the rest.
Why would you buy them then? No return them after you heard them? I guess since you keep telling me all you were interested in was cheap and pretty, it is a win/win. The fact that they sound bad is a distant third...
I find it odd that someone who can measure a speaker, and has good command of LspCAD would ever own, much less purchase, a set of these speakers :roll: At best, he was working on them for someone else. Otherwise, it would be like me purchasing a set. I further suspect he selling his products or services. Nothing wrong with that, but it does make his review a bit disingenuous. BTW, congrats on the new home :)
My error in judgment on why I didn't tell you,
I didn't know I was talking with someone that was really experienced in this, didn't want to ramble on things to a person that I didn't know could interpret it. Thank you on the congrats on the new house. I'm a learning process. Can't wait to get the crossovers out, but will miss the late night smooth jazz listening. Will have to bust out my skull candy's. :)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=115670)
Well... The Good news is, I got the Surround Sound Crossovers put, used a heat gun because I feel that I would have broke them if I didn't. I did get a little close to the circuit board by accident as I was trying to pry it from another angle while using it. I will take pictures of Front and back but am planning to send to you always so not sure if you want the pics... I'm hoping I will have enough time tomorrow to finish the fronts, if not Saturday and will ship there after.
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Update: I have sent the crossovers to Jeff, just waiting for his response on what he is gonna do, and how much better it will sound. :wink:
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117429)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117430)
I wanted to bring you an update. I did get the crossovers back and installed. With a couple of complications on my part, I do have them installed. I absolutely love the sound. I do feel like I did blow a tweeter, and have a replacement coming on that, but it it was absolutely the best investment I have made so far, by far. I do feel they are a little bright, but am gonna wait the recommended 250 break in time for that. All in all, they sound a heck of a lot better than they did. They have the "Oomph" they never had before. I want to thank Jeff again for being so patient with me, as he is really a smart guy. He knows his stuff and that's why he is in what he is in. I will keep everyone updated after the 250 hour mark. :)
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Wonderful!
Yes you just burn them in.
Actually the burning in is both on circuits/drives, and your ears!
You see with those flimsy previous components, you could not hear much detail in higher treble, now you are!
The first impression would be a "brighter sound" - but it will wear off (you get used to them).
Happy listening.
I still think he has done an over kill on these.
They look good enough to be inside a 10K pair.
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Wonderful!
Yes you just burn them in.
Actually the burning in is both on circuits/drives, and your ears!
You see with those flimsy previous components, you could not hear much detail in higher treble, now you are!
The first impression would be a "brighter sound" - but it will wear off (you get used to them).
Happy listening.
I still think he has done an over kill on these.
They look good enough to be inside a 10K pair.
I'm not complaining... I'm a believer of caps. I've read a lot of hate against them, but when I put them in and installed BlackHole 5. Turned them into Swans!
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Welll... I haven't had much time to post much as I've been busy with new house projects, but I believe they've hit the 250 mark. All I can say is that the imaging they have is pretty phenomenal. it's not something I'm use to, have them sound different and separate. Every time I listen to them, they seem to get better and better! I'm glad I got to talk with Jeff, I didn't know that $1000 speakers could sound way over in the thousands. I can compare them to mini actual theater speakers, cause that's pretty much what they are! I'll touch back in another month or so when I believe I hit the 500 hour mark. can't wait to hear them then.