AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: jonsk2514 on 31 May 2020, 06:24 pm
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Hi everyone - 2nd post on Audio Circle. My first post was my introduction.
I have been lurking a while, reading about speaker builds and watching Danny’s videos, and have decided that I would take on the build of a pair of X-MTM Encore (I hope that is the proper name for these) speakers. The idea for doing these came from some email correspondence I had with Danny, which, along with his videos, convinced me that upgrading a set of old and butchered up ESS speakers wasn’t worth the effort. Danny sent me the plans for the cabinets and a price for the components.
I am definitely an amateur with doing this sort of thing, but I have done this once before a long time ago. I built a pair of ported 12”, 3 way speakers. Back then there wasn’t the information that there is today, so the crossover I designed was “cookbook”. I wound my own air coils.
If the X-MTM build goes well, then I plan to build 2 other designs - a X-CS Encore (center channel) and a pair of X-SLS Encores (rear channel). Hopefully, these 3 designs play well together. In the end I expect to have a nice set of speakers for my home theater.
I have never worked with MDF before, so I thought I would play around with some of that before I committed the money for Danny’s hardware. Practice and some actual cutting. I have taken some ideas from other people’s builds (thanks for posting) and watched some build videos (thanks Peter R.). So far I have cut up about 2/3s of a sheet of MDF and I am finding it to be pretty reasonable to work with.
I have gotten far enough along, I think (ya think?) I am committed to doing this build and thought that I would join this forum for help and support, and to show others my ideas and, maybe, get some feedback.
I hope this thread also helps other amateurs to take on one of these speaker builds. I plan to show how I do the build with the limited hardware I have.
Thanks everyone in advance for any post you have made and for any help you provide. I already have a few questions in mind... to be posted later.
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Post script:
I have finished these speakers and can say - OMG, they sound awesome!
Very much worth building...
If you are looking for a speaker to build and have never done this before, I would say that Danny has easier speaker designs to build and more difficult ones to build, than these (the X-MTMs) are. Overall, though, with a little skill and a few tools you can do this. Watch the build videos that Danny and others have posted. Read threads that others have posted about their builds, even if they are not exactly the same design. There are a lot of shared techniques for building any of Danny’s speaker designs. And remember, there is no one right set of details to follow to build Danny’s designs, as long in the end they meet the internal and external dimensions of his sketches. You may tailor your build details from what others have done to accommodate your skill, the tools you have and the room that you have to work in. Most of all, enjoy the build... :thumb:
Now that I am done, is there anything different I would try if I were to build another set of speakers? Yes. If you read through this thread, you will see that I used a somewhat unique way to install the internal braces. While it worked well and the way I intended, I think I would try the simple butt joints that others used. This would change the build sequence slightly, but is very doable. When you get to that point in this thread, I posted a link to another thread where this was done. It may give you ideas of how to do yours.
Also, you may note that this build took me a long time to complete. I will assure you this is not a reflection of difficulty. It is a result of personal circumstances and I did the build as time allowed. Even so, reading through this thread I hope you see how much I enjoyed doing the build. Clearly I am enjoying the end product.
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Danny designed rear surround speakers. http://gr-research.com/av-1rs.aspx (http://gr-research.com/av-1rs.aspx)
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Good luck with your build. Remember that your material is pretty toxic. Always wear a mask and use fans to remove sawdust from the air. There are plenty of people here to help you along the way. I’m sure you will be fine so go for it!
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Danny designed rear surround speakers. http://gr-research.com/av-1rs.aspx (http://gr-research.com/av-1rs.aspx)
Yes, I saw those, and strongly considered them. I am sure they are a good suggestion. However, I am probably putting every thing in the worst audiophile room. It has a partial stone wall, windows on 2 walls and no wall space. Oh, and a tile ceiling and seating is bad. So I am kinda stuck putting something on the floor.. . :roll: I am also thinking that the X-SLS would be a good match to the other speakers. I do have time to reconsider, though, as those will be the last ones I do.
Good luck with your build. Remember that your material is pretty toxic. Always wear a mask and use fans to remove sawdust from the air. There are plenty of people here to help you along the way. I’m sure you will be fine so go for it!
Thanks!
One reason I am posting here is I have seen the spirit in which people here pitch in on questions and suggestions. This is a big part of the reason I am here posting. :thumb:
I read about the hazards of the MDF in the comments to one of the videos I watched. With that in mind I have experimented with the shop vacs I have. For the long cuts I am doing on larger section of board, that are too large to handle on the table saw, I am using a 1/8” down spiral cutter on a router. The cuttings then go into a channel which is evacuated with the vacuum. Works well. My table saw and miter saw are both hooked to the vacuum. That said, your reminder about wearing a mask is a good one, which I need to better with. I have a good industrial one with dual filters that I should be using. I have a lot of cutting ahead of me, not to mention sanding and whatnot. I expect making the recess for the tweeter is going to make a real mess... :P
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Did I mention that these speakers are going into the worst audiophile room?
Yes, and that includes having little room to place the X-MTM speakers at any real distance from the wall that will be behind them. I might be able to get them a foot away from the wall. With these being rear ported, will that be enough? I guess not ideal, but enough?
My other option is to put the ports into the font of the speakers. I had read in another thread that this was acceptable, as long as the location was maintained. When I was considering this build, I asked Danny about this, he responded that I might get some port noise. Can anyone expand on audio impact with relocating the ports? And what would be “port noise”?
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a pair of X-SLS Encores (rear channel). Hopefully, these 3 designs play well together.
Welcome to AC :D
If it were me, X-SLS would be way overkill as rear channels. In fact, I prefer the sound quality of X-SLS over X-MTM, especially in terms of bass definition, therefore upper range clarity. X-SLS also has a chamber on bottom that can be filled with sand for even more solidity of sound (X-MTM does not). I used to own X-Statiks also, but that's another story..
Thus, I would tend to go with X-SLS Encores as mains and build 3 X-LS Encores as center and rears. Add sub(s) of your choice :thumb:
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Did I mention that these speakers are going into the worst audiophile room?
Yes, and that includes having little room to place the X-MTM speakers at any real distance from the wall that will be behind them. I might be able to get them a foot away from the wall. With these being rear ported, will that be enough? I guess not ideal, but enough?
My other option is to put the ports into the font of the speakers. I had read in another thread that this was acceptable, as long as the location was maintained. When I was considering this build, I asked Danny about this, he responded that I might get some port noise. Can anyone expand on audio impact with relocating the ports? And what would be “port noise”?
If the bass sounds bloated because they are too close to the wall, you can partially or fully plug the ports. I know Jay built his N3s with the transmission line opening to the front instead of the rear but I haven't heard of anybody doing that with the X-MTMs. Port noise is usually described as a chuffing sound coming from the ports. The higher the volume, the more prominent the sound can be.
I have the opening of my N3s on the rear and they are only 18" from the wall. If I let them play full range the bass gets a little boomy so I cross them to the sub at 40Hz. This works very well and I don't have to plug the port. You could do the same with the X-MTMs and leave the ports on the rear.
Mike
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Welcome to AC :D
If it were me, X-SLS would be way overkill as rear channels. In fact, I prefer the sound quality of X-SLS over X-MTM, especially in terms of bass definition, therefore upper range clarity. X-SLS also has a chamber on bottom that can be filled with sand for even more solidity of sound (X-MTM does not). I used to own X-Statiks also, but that's another story..
Thus, I would tend to go with X-SLS Encores as mains and build 3 X-LS Encores as center and rears. Add sub(s) of your choice :thumb:
Thanks for the input and interesting comment. I would have thought that the X-SLS Encore and the X-MTM Encore (an X-MTM with upgraded hardware, which Danny says he has) would have been similar in sound quality, but that the X-MTM would have “more” of what the X-SLS has. Actually that way of thinking, as feeble as it is, was the basis for my choices. I have read threads on the X-LS and know they are really good, but couldn’t find much about the X-MTMS. I have also watched a number of Ron’s (new record day) reviews, but didn’t see anything on any of these (sorry if I missed some), in particular without subs. Right now a sub is way out in the future, if I even do one. So my choices were a bit of a gamble, fingering that anything I do of Danny’s designs will be more than “adequate” :thumb:
That said, I am well on my to having the MDF all cut up for a set of the X-MTM and I think I will go ahead of with the X-SLS. You have me curious about the two and I am willing to “risk” a bit of “overkill” :lol:
If the bass sounds bloated because they are too close to the wall, you can partially or fully plug the ports. I know Jay built his N3s with the transmission line opening to the front instead of the rear but I haven't heard of anybody doing that with the X-MTMs. Port noise is usually described as a chuffing sound coming from the ports. The higher the volume, the more prominent the sound can be.
I have the opening of my N3s on the rear and they are only 18" from the wall. If I let them play full range the bass gets a little boomy so I cross them to the sub at 40Hz. This works very well and I don't have to plug the port. You could do the same with the X-MTMs and leave the ports on the rear.
Mike
Mike, great info and, at some point in the near future I will need to make that decision. I have front and side panels cut and can take those to the room to see how they will will fit as a “mockup”. Given that these will have a depths of 16.5” and to add another foot to 18” may put the front of the speaker too far into the room. The room can’t tolerate much like that. Overall, I am guess that if I need to be close to the wall, then front mounting the port might be the way I need to go.
As for “huffing”, I saw just a bit of that (actually a lot) when one of my college buddies showed up at the dorms with a set of JBL L100 speakers. It was interesting to see their movement at the end of Lucky Man... :icon_lol: If that is the sort of thing you are referring to, that will be ok with me.
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A little about what I am working with.... For a shop, clearly amateur. I used this project as an excuse to first clean out some of the crap in my basement and to rebuild my workbench. :roll: I now have a reasonably flat and level 3/4”x4’x8’ plywood workbench to work on. I have collected a variety of tools over the years which I will be using to make this project happen. These include: a 12” Craftsman table saw, a couple of Craftsman routers and a small cast aluminum Craftsman router table for one of those routers, a vintage cast iron floor stand drill press and an Evolution 10” sliding miter saw (designed for cutting metal, but doing great at cutting MDF) and a variety of 20v Dewalt tools, including their smallish 20v router (which I am really liking, so far - more on that later). Also a variation of hand tools including an old carpenter square, which is actually square and thick steel (needed to make square corners), a vintage cast iron machinist’s square, and high quality measuring tapes. Believe it or not, I have bought measuring tapes that were off :nono: I am a fan of the older quality stuff for some of this stuff. These tend to be more durable and have a bit of “heft” to them than the stuff you get today at your local stores (yes, there are some high end tool stores and you should go for it if you can) For a straight edge I am generally using 1/8”x1”x2” rectangular aluminum tube (get at most any hardware store but the best place is Metal Supermarkets, if you have one nearby). C-clamps and adjustable welding clamps; these are for holding pieces for cutting not particularly for assemble. I need to get assembly clamps. There are likely other tools I will use, but again nothing special.
For glue, I am following Peter R’s suggestion in one of his videos - Tight Bond (slow set) and Loctite’s PL Max (construction adhesive). At least that is my plan for now.
I think for any amateurs thinking of building a set of these speakers, do it; I am not using anything special. The 12” table saw is overkill for this project. I picked it up used as something of a castaway and was able to get it working. A more typical 10” would be fine. The routers are also nothing special. The miter saw is nice, but not necessary as the slide is short for some cuts. I also have a hand circular saw, but don’t have plans to use it. I find it makes less accurate costs than I would like. I think there is nothing particularly wrong with it. I just think it is the wrong tool to use for this work.
I plan to document what I am doing, pictures if I can. More to come.
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The two power tools I'd recommend for anyone who wants to build speakers are a router and a track saw. If you're just making box speakers those will give you all the accuracy you could want. Once you have them you'll find a million uses for them around the house too.
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Thanks for the suggestion. I had not thought about a track saw. This could be an ideal option, especially if you don’t already have a table saw. I can see the benefit of one of these for doing the cuts that I am doing which are across the width of a full sheet of MDF, where trying to do those cuts on a small table saw would be next to impossible. :thumb:
There are a lot of option for an amateur to use for dong these builds. It is interesting to hear and read about these.
My only caution would be that if someone is going out to buy one of these, spend the money for a good one. You don’t want anything that has any flex in the straight edge or clamp parts. I bought an inexpensive clamp-on edge guide for this project. While the straight edge part of it was really stiff, it had a lot of plastic in the clamp mechanism and that allowed it to flex a lot with just a little side loading. It was a waste of money.
I have gotten further along in my build than I have had in getting a chance to document much of it. I hope to do this a chronologically so people my progression. It is far to say, at this point, that I have made my long cuts with a router, a 1/8” down spiral cutter and a simple straight edge. More to come.
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My only caution would be that if someone is going out to buy one of these, spend the money for a good one.
Exactly.
You don't need a shop full of Festool stuff. I just have a corded Makita SP6000. I think I paid $350 new for it. I bought two PowerTec 55” Guide Rails for $130. They are compatible with Makita and Festool saws and come with connectors to give you 110" capacity. I've since bought a single PowerTec 55" track because I got tired of taking the two I had apart and putting them back together.
You can use one 55" track to crosscut a sheet of plywood and use two with the connectors to rip long sections. I've even ripped boards too heavy to safely cut on my TS. Just put another board of the same thickness next to it to support the track. I never cut large items on my table saw anymore.
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That makes sense. I too have bought multiples of things for that same reason. Let’s see - 5 drills are part of my weakness. 4 are battery powered as I hate cords. :lol:
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The thought of building these speakers was enough to have me thinking of the plans for making them. Danny had sent me the basic plans for the cabinets, but I needed build plans. Having watched a few videos I found a few ideas I like. One was to built the cabinets with recesses in the edges of some panels, into which the other panels would be bonded. In my mind this did two things. One being it makes each panel the square for the panels attached to it. The other, I feel it adds strength to the design. The design can take advantage of the recess lip for strength as well as the glue.
So here are the build plans I came up with. They have the correct interior dimensions of Danny’s plans but it eliminates the butt joints. There is nothing fancy here. No CAD drawings to auto correct my errors. Just pencil and paper; not even a straight edge (save that for the build... :roll:)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209884)
Ok, this is not perfect. For example the leader line for the top/bottom panel comes to the wrong spot, but the dimensions are right (they better be, other wise I am cutting new pieces... :?)
So, as you see the front will be cut with a 3/8” deep x 3/4” on all 4 sides, the top/bottom is cut on 3 sides, the sides are only cut on the back edge and the back panel is cut to fit into the recess of the top/bottom and side pieces. As long as I cut each panel square, I can do the fit up of this without needing a square.
When all is said and done, this is a pretty simple box... :thumb:
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If you’re stuck with floor standing surround speakers then I recommend the AV-O.
http://gr-research.com/av-o.aspx (http://gr-research.com/av-o.aspx)
I used the larger X-Omni as rear surrounds and they worked really well. Should be an easy build too.
Here’s an old pic showing X-Omni and X-SLS.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209366&size=large)
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The next part of this was to make a MDF cut plan. You will notice that it is based on a 48”x96” (4x8 foot) sheet of wood. No one told me that each sheet of MDF is 49”x97”... :duh: Well didn't this little oops come in handy When I made an opps cutting (more later on that).
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209912)
The 60-ish piece is a leftover from a previous project and that is what I started with. I figured if I struggle to cut that up, then I might have to rethink my plans and nothing lost. As it was, cutting went well and it was a bit more than 60” so I got more out of it than I thought. None the less, for anyone building these, with these 2 sheets of MDF you can build a set of these speakers.
A side note. I thought I could just go back to my big box wood store and get another sheet of the MDF I had and materials would match up. But no. Around here we are thankfully starting to “open up” after being shut down for months (good thing as we wouldn’t be opening up now). One of the first business to be let to restart was construction. Ugh for me; good for them. So off to another big box store. Different brand of MDF, but it seems to look, smell and taste :roll: the same, so hopefully it performs the same. I figure that it will make up opposing panels. That is, the tops, bottoms and fronts came from the one sheet and the sides and back are coming from the other. The bonus was that when we pulled the sheet of MDF from the pile, one corner was split. Could I use it, ask the store employee asked... 30% off if you take it... A quick check of my cut plans, which I had a copy of on my phone (love today’s tech... :thumb:)... Yes. Not expensive to begin with, and bought cheaper yet... Yes, a win for the build....
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If you’re stuck with floor standing surround speakers then I recommend the AV-O.
http://gr-research.com/av-o.aspx (http://gr-research.com/av-o.aspx)
I used the larger X-Omni as rear surrounds and they worked really well. Should be an easy build too.
Here’s an old pic showing X-Omni and X-SLS.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209366&size=large)
Thanks! And I like the black. The X-SLS are sure popular.
I looked at a lot of designs that Danny has up and saw a few in build thread of ones that he doesn’t have up, one of which is the X-MTMs. I also noted that the Encore versions of the designs were particularly impressive in people’s minds. This is why I asked Danny if that existed for the X-MTMs. Part of the reason I gravitated to the X-SLS to go with the X-MTMs is they are both Encore versions and, right or wrong, I thought they might be the best match together versus matching the X-MTMs to some other speaker. I also wanted to do something that was a step up from the AV line Danny has as this will likely be a dual purpose system.
I can’t say exactly what drew me to the MTMs, but something did. Maybe it is my old school way of thinking - Bigger is better. The best stereo system I ever heard was the sound system for a Deep Purple concert in Cornell University’s football field. It was a 3 way system comprised of 14 base driver cabinets, with 2 drivers per cabinet and each stood between 5 and 6 feet high. 7 of these on a side. On top of each set of those was a cabinet with an array of mid range speakers and on top of that was a big horn tweeter. From the center of the football field to where I was sitting, the start of Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon (pre-concert canned music) was moving my pant’s leg. This is the sort of BIG I grew up with... :o. Maybe that was the attraction of the X-MTMs. But, I do know now that big isn’t aways better... I should know that, I drive a MINI Cooper (a quicker version). :duh:
For now I am committed to the X-MTMs for the fronts. But for the rears, there is still time to change my mind. There is a lot to be said for the X-SLS for the rears. But, you having pointed me to the AV-Os or the X-Omnis, has me thinking about the spacial aspect they might provide. Tis to think about... But, then there is the acoustic tile ceiling they will be playing up to. As I said before, I have a tough room to fill.
But there is another consideration to my madness. That is, there is a second room in my house that might be able to use a set of X-MTMs or X-SLS. So I might be in for a long speaker build adventure.
:thumb:
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I've built, and listened to, the X-LS Encore, X-CS Encore, X-SLS Encore, X-MTM Encore, and the X-Omni. The X-LS and X-SLS Encore are the same speaker in different cabinents. The X-CS and X-MTM Encore are the same speaker in different cabinets. When compared to the X-SLS Encore, the X-MTM Encore plays deeper and has more weight and body in the midrange. The advantage of the X-SLS Encore is that it is shorter so not as imposing in the room. For front main speakers I prefer the X-MTM Encore.
Mike
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Mike - Wow - I knew that some here on AC were prolific builders... :thumb:
I appreciate the review. I also figured that I couldn’t go wrong with any of Danny’s speaker designs.
I am sure, like a lot of people here, that the draw to building Danny’s designs is that the designs are really well thought out and have a strong technical background. And he has done will with his videos to showcase his knowledge. As I said, my original thoughts were to somehow upgrade the ESS speakers I have. The $18 woofer I put in years ago needed to go. So I started to look for what might be better. While looking for replacements I got some “recommendations” for some of Danny’s videos. I watched a few with him explaining what he liked and disliked about base drivers. For me, his explanations passed my common sense test and filled some holes in my knowledge (not that it is much beyond basics). So, my next thought was to take that new knowledge and pick drivers. Well, then my concern was whether the crossovers would work or would I need to change it. Then there was a discussion about multiple small drivers being better than one large driver and one Cap design being better than another. And then, and then... You know were this is going. The more I learned and thought about it, I realized “I can’t get there from here” and he has done all the work I was trying to, and has the knowledge to do it, which I really don’t. A few emails with him convinced me that building a kit or 2 or 3 was the way to go. I like the building part, so here I am.
And, I have read enough posts here to see that there are a lot of people here who have “been there, done that” and are helpful to one and another to make me feel comfortable in what I have set off to do...
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With my skill set and tools I thought that I needed to do something different with mounting the braces within the cabinets. What I had seen was either butt joints or routed recesses. The butt joints looked to be something that I would need more hands and jigs than I have to assemble it. The routed version seemed to need a precision that I think I would struggle to meet and it would take time, even though I am sure it can be done. Also, I know that having a recess in the MDF will greatly weaken it before the cabinet is fully assembled. In my hands I would fear breaking a board before I got to the assembly stage.
My plan is to locate the braces on the side walls using common 1/2” quarter round. The quarter round will preclude unwanted reflections and can be covered by a bevel on the no-Rez. The front and back ends will then just be glued as butt joints. Peter R introduced the PL construction adhesive in his video for installing the small diagonal braces in one of the smaller speaker cabinets. This glue will tolerate less that tight tolerances that are required of regular wood glue. By using this glue I can have the quarter round located to allow a little wider fit up gap that would be more than a routed gap. This will also allow the braces to be cut slightly undersized and I don’t have to be perfect with their fit up.
For ease of assembly, I plan on making it in 2 (3?) steps. First will be to glue the braces to the cabinet sides with the rest of the panels “dry fit” in place to make sure everything is square as the glue sets. The second step will be to glue the sides/braces to the back, top and bottom. The 3rd will be the assembly of the front after the crossover and other stuff are done. I guess that is 3 steps (at least... :duh:)
I also considered the change in volume from the addition of the quarter round stock. It is not insignificant; about 75in^3 per speaker. To accommodate this, I found that opening up the holes in the braces by 3/8” on the diameter would about perfectly offset this difference. Other options I considered were making the cabinet taller or deeper, both of which I discounted for the possibility of changing the tonal quality of it.
Here is the mockup I did with some 1/2”x3/4” wood I cut to approximate the 1/2” quarter round and some scrap MDF
Not too exciting... The adhesive:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209923)
I set a line on the MDF for the 1st wood strip and then it was glued (Tight Bond slow set) and tacked (brad nailer). The pneumatic brad nailer worked great for this. The second wood strip was then located with a 3/4” square steel tube with a piece of thick tape on it, which added about 1/32” to its thickness. In the actual assembly I will use a single spacer bar laid across both panels at the same time to have the quarter round pieces pretty well lined up.
Spacer bar and thickness measurement with the tape. This added clearance will allow for a bit of tolerance mismatch between the two sides.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209924)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209925)
The PL adhesive on the pieces to show how it flowed. This shows what it looked like with just one bead between the 2 wood strips. Needed more to get up the edges...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209926)
I did a second mockup using the Tight Bond. Both were clamped in place; the PL one was done a day before the other.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209927)
You can see that the PL moved nicely and filled the spaces.
I then sectioned the mockup to see what it looked like. You will notice that I did less than a stellar job making the strips fully rectangular; they are a bit trapezoidal :roll: But as you can see, the PL flowed nicely and will take up imperfections in assembly.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209928)
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If Murphy’s Law ever applied to anything it is cords and hoses. And straight edges. Those things hate me. If they had thumbs, they would do real damage to me. As a result of my issues with those things, I have a bevy of cordless tools. My latest acquisition is a cordless router. No, don’t laugh, I did buy one and the quick answer is - Yes it really does work. And I did buy it for this project. Straight edges, I’ll come to that...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209935)
There is a lot to be said for this little thing... First: no cord. Second: it has power
There is a spiral, down cut bit in the picture. The idea for getting this came from from the bits used to make holes in drywall. My thought was this will help to control dust.
In the picture you can see 2 cuts that I made. The really clean one is with the carbide bit in the picture. The nasty looking cut is from a cutter used for drywall. Ya, doesn’t work too well on MDF...
If you look closely at the picture, you will see that the MDF has a relief routed into to it. That is a 3/4”x3/8” routing that I did in a single pass with this router.
The router has speed control; you can see the speed setting dial in the picture. I think the range is something like 16,000 to 24,000 rpm. And it is a real speed control. This thing will hold that speed setting no matter what. No bogging down. It just goes. The downside to that... the 3/4” router bit, doing a 3/8” deep cut will suck a 2 amp-hr battery to zero in about 3 feet of cutting. So, this will be a case of using the right tool for the job. I will likely be using a corded router for these heavier cuts.
However, for using the 1/8” bit in it... I am loving it. It has been used to make the 4 foot long cuts in the MDF with no sweat. I get about 12 linear ft of cutting with that same 2 amp-hr battery.
For cutting I ended up trying two straight edges:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209936)
This worked really well. It was really stiff and guided the router nicely. It is a 4’ long piece of 3/16x1x1 aluminum angle. It worked great until I found it was bent and I was on my way to making a bowed version of these speakers. And they would have been bowed to the side, not front to back, which might have been interesting. This isn’t the first time I have had non-straight straight edges. You would think I would have learned my lessen and not just pick something out of the “miscellaneous pile” and use it just because it looks right... :duh: I was able to recover and cut those pieces in to smaller parts. :roll:
My second attempt at making straight cuts worked much better... It really is straight
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209937)
I placed the MDF on sever 5/4 board which raised it up enough to put a shop vac hose attachment under the MDF and in the channel created by the 5/4 boards. This did really well at gathering and controlling dust.
There is a little left over feathering on bottom edge of the cut, which is easily taken care of with a bit of light sanding. Also, the cutter leaves slight bump as it exits the piece at the end of the cut. This I take care of with a coarse file, but if left behind can cause issues with making right angle cuts if it comes into contact with the straight edge of the cutter or layout.
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Also, the cutter leaves slight bump as it exits the piece at the end of the cut. This I take care of with a coarse file, but if left behind can cause issues with making right angle cuts if it comes into contact with the straight edge of the cutter or layout.
Do you have flush-trim router bit? That would leave a nice, smooth finish.
(https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/productImages/400/a4/a4b66998-a4ca-4871-8286-03b8dc94c958_400.jpg)
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Yes, that is a consideration. I am lucky in that some tools like that are readily available to me to buy locally if needed/wanted. The 1/8” one I am using was a mail order. So that took some planning.
I have seen the build where the builder (You?, sorry that I don’t remember who) used that router bit for trimming off overlap after assembly. And I saw the painter’s tape to keep the roller from marking and the use of out-rigger supports to keep the router level. A good example of how to do this.
My plan now is a black painted gloss finish; maybe with some texture. But that is as far as I have gotten. Right now my cuts are really clean, except for that little bit of feathering, which is easily removed. The edge is good enough for routing the recesses and for assembly. From there I am considering doing rounded corners on the cabinets and I have a set of corner-rounds for doing that. But that leaves me with the dilemma of whether to do a grill cloth covers or not, and, if I do, how do I integrate that with rounded cabinet corners... Maybe some corners square and some rounded... Ugh - too much to think about. :?
However, I am hoping that I will be close enough on my dimensions to be able to get away with just sanding. If, not then I will likely need one of those. I am thinking I am good with dimensions and being square, having checked all that I have done so far. With the initial cutting being good, then I expect the recess routing to follow suit. I know I will need to practice a lot before doing that routing on the production pieces. In the past I have struggle with using the router table I have (something is “off” with it and I haven’t quite gotten that bug worked out) and I don’t like the idea of free-hand the router to do this, especially for the number of linear feet that will need to be routed. Once that is done, I am looking forward to my dry-fit up to see how I have done.
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Yes, that is a consideration. I am lucky in that some tools like that are readily available to me to buy locally if needed/wanted. The 1/8” one I am using was a mail order. So that took some planning.
I have seen the build where the builder (You?, sorry that I don’t remember who) used that router bit for trimming off overlap after assembly. And I saw the painter’s tape to keep the roller from marking and the use of out-rigger supports to keep the router level. A good example of how to do this.
My plan now is a black painted gloss finish; maybe with some texture. But that is as far as I have gotten. Right now my cuts are really clean, except for that little bit of feathering, which is easily removed. The edge is good enough for routing the recesses and for assembly. From there I am considering doing rounded corners on the cabinets and I have a set of corner-rounds for doing that. But that leaves me with the dilemma of whether to do a grill cloth covers or not, and, if I do, how do I integrate that with rounded cabinet corners... Maybe some corners square and some rounded... Ugh - too much to think about. :?
However, I am hoping that I will be close enough on my dimensions to be able to get away with just sanding. If, not then I will likely need one of those. I am thinking I am good with dimensions and being square, having checked all that I have done so far. With the initial cutting being good, then I expect the recess routing to follow suit. I know I will need to practice a lot before doing that routing on the production pieces. In the past I have struggle with using the router table I have (something is “off” with it and I haven’t quite gotten that bug worked out) and I don’t like the idea of free-hand the router to do this, especially for the number of linear feet that will need to be routed. Once that is done, I am looking forward to my dry-fit up to see how I have done.
There is an old adage in woodworking that when cutting and gluing up something like a cabinet one of three things will happen: (1) the parts will fit perfectly and everything will come out square; (2) the end grain/edge will be a little long and have to be flush trimmed back, or (3) the end grain/edge will be a little short in which case the entire side will have to be sanded. Murphy states situation (1) is unlikely. Situation (2) is easy to correct while situation (3) is a PITA to correct. The point is to purposely make the mistake that is easiest to correct.
For the X-LS cabinets, I implement this approach by cutting the tops and bottoms a little long so they overhang the sides by about 1/16" then flush trim. I cut the front and rear baffles oversize so they are about 1/16" over all four sides of the cabinet after the tops and bottoms have been flush trimmed, then flush trim the four sides of the baffles. Then I do any sanding to make sure everything is flat, then cut any edge profiles I want.
Mike
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D@*n that Murphy. if it were not for him, we would all be golden... :o
I did cut to the high side on the external parts except the back which I plan to have fully within recesses. Not quite a sixteenth, though. The internal braces are cut on the low side to make sure they fit without affecting the outside. I hope (is that a plan?) I did enough.
Things will be sitting for a few days while another project takes over. The sides and back have yet to be cut to length and I have at least one with the width cut wrong. It is more of a trapezoid than a rectangle, but fixable. Measure twice or 3 times, cut once doesn’t help if the straight edge slips... :duh: Where is that Murphy? I need to have a word or two with him... :|
Kidding aside - Point is well taken... :thumb:
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I know this is a bit off my topic but:
What are people using for a Blu-ray player?
Mine has died
I looked here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=168833.0
And will do other searches here.
But, I was wondering if the people who build Danny’s speakers had “different” thoughts as to what they use as a source for what will ultimately go to these speakers than what the “general” audiophile masses think...
I have looked here for A/V receivers (this was a “why not” :green:):
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=166966.0
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I know this is a bit off my topic but:
What are people using for a Blu-ray player?
Mine has died
I looked here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=168833.0
And will do other searches here.
But, I was wondering if the people who build Danny’s speakers had “different” thoughts as to what they use as a source for what will ultimately go to these speakers than what the “general” audiophile masses think...
I have looked here for A/V receivers (this was a “why not” :green:):
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=166966.0
I have an OPPO 105. Unfortunately, OPPO is no longer in the disc player market so the only way to get a 105 or 205 is used.
A couple other good ones are the Marantz UD5007 and UD7007. These are also going to be used market.
One that might still be available new is the Pioneer Elite UDP-LX500
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Thanks for the suggestions. :thumb:
It seems that several upper level manufacturers have dropped out of that business.
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I got a Oppo UDP-203 when the company said it was shutting down production. It’s crazy how expensive they are on the used market.
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Thanks for the suggestions. :thumb:
It seems that several upper level manufacturers have dropped out of that business.
Yes anD that leaves those of us with eclectic disc libraries in a lurch. I have CDs, SACDs, DVD-Audio, and Blu-Ray discs.
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??? Yamaha BD-A1060 ???
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I think I found 2 Blu-ray players here that look pretty good:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Blu-ray-Disc-Players/ci/1908/N/4289367639?sort=PRICE_HIGH_TO_LOW (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Blu-ray-Disc-Players/ci/1908/N/4289367639?sort=PRICE_HIGH_TO_LOW)
They have two that fit my needs. The pricier one is the Panasonic DP-UB9000 and then next is the Sony UBP-X1100ES. They have the Pioneer Elite UDP-LX500, but it has limited connectivity, which doesn’t support other parts in my system. I also note that both support a lot of different media types.
Not sure which I would go with. The Sony is the least expensive and match other components I have. Panasonic has always done well by me and tends to have a really good reputation.
Not sure I am up for buying used. So I think I will be getting something off the new market.
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My plan now is a black painted gloss finish; maybe with some texture. But that is as far as I have gotten. Right now my cuts are really clean, except for that little bit of feathering, which is easily removed. The edge is good enough for routing the recesses and for assembly. From there I am considering doing rounded corners on the cabinets and I have a set of corner-rounds for doing that. But that leaves me with the dilemma of whether to do a grill cloth covers or not, and, if I do, how do I integrate that with rounded cabinet corners... Maybe some corners square and some rounded... Ugh - too much to think about. :?
Have you thought about a full automotive level paint job on them? It's actually pretty stinkin easy and the look of a black speaker done in good basecoat/clearcoat looks aaaaaaamazing. Way nicer than most "piano black" finishes you get on a regular purchased speaker.
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Have you thought about a full automotive level paint job on them? It's actually pretty stinkin easy and the look of a black speaker done in good basecoat/clearcoat looks aaaaaaamazing. Way nicer than most "piano black" finishes you get on a regular purchased speaker.
It would be a bit like a brand new Steinway look. That would surely be sharp looking. I did that with a set of wheels I bought for my Jeep. They were inexpensive and only painted black. I had them clear coated more for added protection than anything else. When I got them back they looked soooo good I had second thoughts about putting them on. I know where you are coming from. :thumb:
There are some factors driving my thoughts on finish. I am going for a bit of a “hide in the corner” look for the room these will be going into. That is in part to accommodate past requests from another Wink2 to keep things toned down. I also live where doing any amount of spraying would be highly frowned upon. At least for now, I will be headed in a different direction.
That said, I do have another room where that sort of finish might work really well and that room night need a new set of speakers... Ya, never know...
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I am back to cutting up MDF and have almost finished that part of the build. Next step will be routing. This will take some practice. I am sure I will be looking at both freehand with a guide and use of the router table. Both come with risks in my hands. Then there is dust control which I expect to be more of a factor than it has been with the 1/8” bit I have been using. I have plenty of scrap MDF that will be put to good use trying out my options.
Speaking of MDF - Could one of the reasons the X-MTM are a bit less popular than other builds be their final weight? I weighed the MDF I have cut up with and have slightly over 60 lbs of wood alone for each speaker. These thing are going to weight between 70 and 80 lbs each. These are not going to be light, are they! And how do I get them out of the basement when I am done? :duh: Ok, I can figure that one out, but it is a bit of an eye opener.
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I have several cars that have been occupying my time recently and I have had little chance to do much on the speakers. Last night I went to set up the table saw to trim the width of the sides for the cabinets and that was a failure :icon_frown:
It turned out that the last time I cleaned it, I had loosened some bolts to gain access to some areas. These also are used to align the blade to the rest of the table. Well, wouldn’t you know, close isn’t good enough. Close, as in 1/64-ish. A test piece I ran through to check the size setting was getting hit hard by the trailing edge of the blade and that was more than seemed right.
I hadn’t paid a lot attention to this in the past as the saw has only been used mostly for rough work. But this needed to be “right” and I was trying to include to include a touch of planned overaage as suggested by mlundy57. I figured that not having the saw more closely aligned was going to put a big question on that one and how it would come out.
So, last night I spent several hours trying to get this thing more closely aligned. First off, this is an old school Craftsman table saw with a cast iron top. It weights well over a 100 lbs and moving it so I can get to the underside and those stinking bolts, was a real pain, literally. And while the machinist’s scale I was using goes down to 1/64ths, my eyes don’t; not any more. No matter what I tried. Ok, I don’t have a good magnifying glass, nor three hands to do this, so I didn’t try that. This was probably a hour of my effort. Ugh. I got it to what I thought was close and ran a test cut that showed that it was still off. Then I realized that measuring it was the wrong and hard way to go. I just needed to use the test cut piece of wood to touch of the leading and trailing edge of the blade, from both sides of the blade, to see how much it was off. I ran the piece of wood, attached to the miter gage, back and forth to see how the blade was aligned to the miter slots. Easy to see and feel where it was touching the blade or not. The hard part then became how to move the blade and motor mounting structure in very, very small increments. A little trial and error and then less error, all was good.
I am back in business. 8)
Now, I am pondering whether it is worth the extra step to use the table saw to make a 3/8” deep cut in the panels before routing out the 3/8” x 3/4“ recess needed for fit up. I see another practice session coming up... :wink:
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It's always a good idea to practice cuts and set-ups on scrap until you get it right. This also goes for finishing techniques you are unfamiliar with. Better to make a mistake on a piece of scrap then on the cabinet.
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...First off, this is an old school Craftsman table saw with a cast iron top...
If it's an old 12" saw with a cast iron table, you may have another accuracy issue. Chances are good that the top is warped downwards in the area of the blade due to the heavy weight of the motor. You need to use a quality straight edge and feeler gauges to see if there is any warp or not.
If there is warp, it means that you cannot get accurate 90 degree cuts without a lot of fine alignment each time you change the blade angle. And it will be different from each side so it's important to check specifically whether you want the 90 degree cut on the fence side piece or the cutoff piece. It will also depend on how wide the starting piece is. So simply using a 90 degree square from one side to set the blade is not enough. You have to make actual cuts and measure them afterwards with the square.
Hopefully, you have no table warp. But it's pretty common with cast iron, so you really should check it out if you have not already done so.
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Yup, 12”, 220V Craftsman.
Wow! Did you ever call it on that one... Ugh!
and something I never would have thought to check... :?
I did a quick look at the surface using a nice steel 2’ straight edge I have. I looked left to right and front to back. There is a definite upward (not downward) “bump” in the “flat” surface that needs to be pushed down 5 - 10 mills (maybe more?) :icon_frown:
It is about 6” around (maybe more), to the left of the blade, forward of the motor location and includes the miter slide. It disappears towards the edge of the casting and doesn’t go to the right side of the blade. I haven’t made any exact measurements, but looking at something like this for being “light tight” is a good enough tell. Also, the straight edge would clearly rock when it was on top of it.
For now, the fence side looks to be good. I will check further, though, to make sure. The miter side is clearly porked, though...
As for the left side, I would figure if there is a bump in one location there should be a depression in an other, which I can look for later...
And I will say, this is a first for me. This is a motor, while heavy for what it is, that is way too light to bend steel that thick, and yet it can cause the steel to warp over time? Maybe it is like a car spring taking a set? But that is aside and the subject for another discussion.
I guess this is a good reason to be posting whatever about what is going on, as it can trigger the most unlikely tidbits... :thumb:
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Is this a contractors saw or a cabinet saw? I should have probably asked that first, because it makes a big difference in how the motor is suspended and that in turn can effect the top warping.
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Not sure about the terms you are using, but this appears to be the saw:
https://c.searspartsdirect.com/mmh/lis_pdf/OWNM/L0911390.pdf
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That's a contractors saw and the entire weight of the motor and blade assembly is suspended from bottom of the cast iron table. Which is what can cause the cast iron to warp, although it doesn't seem to be too bad with yours. If things are very flat from just left of the blade to the fence on the right side, then you can probably get pretty square cuts. Don't try to do any cuts where the offcut piece would extend more than an inch or so to the left of the blade and you should be alright. Also make sure that the throat plate is level and flat with the rest of the top.
The rise to the left of the blade is a little hard to understand, but now that you know it's there you can avoid it. So doing crosscuts might be a problem. If it is, then you can solve it by building a crosscut sled.
Most importantly, make test cuts with good flat wood and check them with a square every time you change the blade angle. Don't trust square up blade readings made on the table top itself.
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Good advice. I do usually make checks of its cuts. Now I may know where to look and what to look for.
In looking at it, the high spot is more forward than where the motor assembly is bolted and I can’t find a low spot. If I had to guess, it might have had the “droop” and someone before me (I bought it used) tried to press it out with something like a press or hydraulic jack. That would explain the push-out. It is all a guess, though.
Thanks for the heads up... :thumb:
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Christmas in June! :lol:
It is great when I send myself presents. That is the best part about ordering on line. When it comes and lands at your doorstep, it is another package to open, just like a kid at Christmas.
This time, for me, it was an order of clamps from Harbor Freight.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=210750)
This is a place where I am careful of what I buy. The clamps they sell have given me few problems, and the main problem they have given me (the ratchet fails) has been easily fixed.
Now I know I don’t have enough for every joint and junction that needs to be made, however my plan is to use some oak board I have to span across a few of those places without loosing clamping pressure. I’ll let you know how that goes, later. :green:
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It seems that life in general has a habit of getting in the way of progressing on projects like this. I recently got this YouTube post recommendation of a few guys who put on this 3 hr long concert:
https://youtu.be/rUZmZEujeE0
I don’t know anything about them*, but they sounded really good. Or at least I thought that they might sound really good if I had this project done. I definitely need to get going on this...
(* Ok - that’s not true. :icon_lol:)
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A little more work done. I want to thank the 2 members who’s advice has been quite timely.
I have have looked over the table saw table some more and my conclusion remains. It has a small bump in the cast iron. I am sure it was not manufactured that way as I can seen the surfacing marks on it from when it was originally manufactured and this bump is within those. This bump is only to the left of the blade. It is not to the right of the blade, which is helpful for now (only dong ripping; no miter cuts for now). As a result of suggesting that I check the flatness of the table, I now know that I need to square the blade to the right side of the table. After I did this, I looked at how square the blade is to the left side, with the bump and it is off about 0.015” to the top of the 12” blade, fully up.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211008)
To go along with the newly squared blade, I added a enhancement to the rip guide:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211002)
this is that piece of 2“x1” rectangular tube that I used when using the router to cut out the pieces from the full board. A while back ago, I found that from the top to the bottom, the rip guide isn’t square. You can see the piece of wood wedged between the tube and the saw’s rip guide to hold the tube square to the table. The tube also extends well beyond the table to make sure the longer pieces being cut are held flush.
The second piece of advice that I have made part of my work is to make my cuts a touch on the high side. To help with that I marked each panel with which corner I knew to be square when I cut it from the larger board:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211000)
This way I know which way to feed the panel though the saw and I know which side to measure from for laying out the cut. I also add the planned dimensions for the panel. When I was done cutting the width of the panels was about about 1/32” over.
I did the final sizing cut on the side panels. Now everything is cut to size. And, the edge I cut is square to the face; I checked. :green:
Next is to set the router table for 3/4”x3/8” relief grooves in edges of the front, top, bottom and side panels. I have not quite decided how I am going to do this. I know some of this will need to be done with the router using a straight edge (for the shorter cuts). For the longer cuts it would be nice to do them on the router table, but it is not the best table ever made. I am also considering doing a 3/8” deep cut on the table saw prior to dong the actual routing. All of this will take some practice and experimenting. More to come...
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Be sure to make the relief grooves in the edges of the front, top, bottom and side panels slightly wider than the thickness of the mating pieces that will go into them. Add at least 1/32", or even 1/16" just to be on the safe side. Then after the glue up route off the excess with a flush trim bit. If you try to make them fit exact and miss, then you'll have to sand off large areas of the mating panels. Not good. And you'll never be aware of the very slight difference in the overall size of the boxes.
All of that assumes you have already cut the pieces to their exact final dimensions. If you haven't done that yet, then you can cut them slightly oversize and make the box exactly to plan. However, it doesn't really matter either way.
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That will be my plan. While everything has been cut, I did plan in a little overage. Now to find out if there was enough overage planned in. :o
I intend to do practice pieces to see how the routing and fit up goes. Then I will do a dry fit up of the actual outside panels when I am done with the routing to see what success I have. I figure I can trim a bit more to widen the relief if I need to make sure there is a touch of overage. The plan is to have the back panel fully fit within the reliefs cut into the sides, top and bottom. I am figuring that PL glue that Peter uses will take up any gap. If I just use the Tite Bond all around, then the fit up gap needs to be tight, which will be hard to do, or the clamping force will need to be high enough to bend the panels. I think both of these options to be less desirable than taking up space with the PL glue. The last bit of the assembly will be dry fitting the braces. Here, again, I plan to use the PL glue in the final assembly and any gap will be accommodated. I am also figuring that the PL glue will add a bit if damping to the structure instead of it being ridged.
There have been comments made, in particular to Danny’s videos, where there is clear nervousness about taking on one of the DIY projects. Now that I gotten into one of those projects I can see where this nervousness might be coming from. I have made a few things over my lifetime, but I find that while these speakers seem to be just simple boxes, there are details, such as this, that need to be well thought out. Those details can be a source of hesitation for some. “How do I get through this?” sort of thing. I am pretty sure I can “puzzle” my way through this and I expect it to come out well, especially given the advice that is available. I hope that recording my efforts, and thoughts, along with the thoughts from others about making a set of these speaker is found to be helpful by another DIY’ers and provides ideas as to how to come through details of building these, which, in turn, encourages them to take on one of these projects.
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I am figuring that PL glue that Peter uses will take up any gap. If I just use the Tite Bond all around, then the fit up gap needs to be tight, which will be hard to do, or the clamping force will need to be high enough to bend the panels. I think both of these options to be less desirable than taking up space with the PL glue.
PL is not a glue. It is a construction adhesive and not a good choice for speaker cabinets. It only has about 1/4 the bond strength of Titebond Ultimate. Make sure your cuts are square and Titebond will work fine. Then run a bead of caulking along all the inside corners of the speaker cabinet, just to make sure it's sealed up.
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I'd like to clarify since I'm being cited as an information source :)
Please don't assume that because I use PL Premium in specific situations that it's a replacement for wood glue like Titebond or reasonably accurate wood joinery. Definitely not a case where "one size fits all". I sometimes use products in unconventional ways, but they are always well-considered and rarely represent a panacea.
Although the strength of either will likely exceed the requirements of task at hand, wood glues exist for a reason. Although it can conceivably be done, I'd say there's nothing to be gained for substituting PL in the case of speaker cabinet building in general.
I question the value in smearing a bead of caulk on the interior seams, although it probably doesn't hurt anything. It's not a sealed cabinet so airtight-ness is not much of a consideration. I see it done frequently and it's an idea that's perpetuated by many, but I fail to see the advantage it provides in an assembly such as this.
Climbing off soapbox now...
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I am figuring that PL glue that Peter uses will take up any gap. If I just use the Tite Bond all around, then the fit up gap needs to be tight, which will be hard to do, or the clamping force will need to be high enough to bend the panels.
The strongest woodworking joint has a very thin glue line, the PL Premium will have a fat joint resulting in a slightly askew alignment and a wide glue line that will be very hard to finish. If clamping force is too high you will squeeze out all the glue and the joint will have have zero strength. Cleanup with PL Premium is paint thinner, Titebond cleanup is water.
Since woodworking is new to you I would recommend Titebond Extend, the slow set version of Titebond Original. Gaps in the finished cabinet are usually filled with Bondo auto body putty after the glue is dry and the joints are sanded flush.
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Peter - Thanks for responding.
Your point is well taken. I had seen in a couple of your videos where you used the PL adhesive for attaching some internal bracing. I also noted that you said this was an unconventional use of this product. I believe in one case you used it to attach the small diagonal braces (Sorry, could not locate the video for this one) and another was to attach a dowel brace:
https://youtu.be/5n3ZYGnEjgE
Honestly, your videos have been a source of inspiration for me and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to make and post these. I didn’t mean to come across as saying “Peter said to do this”. Only that you were a source of inspiration for what I plan to do.
Your use of the PL adhesive for the braces gave me an idea for how it could be used in the assembly of the braces in this speaker design. That is, use the PL for the internal braces, where there may be clearances and variations in dimensions of the pieces I have made, and, as a result there may be gaps too large to make good use of the Titebond. I do plan to glue the main part of the cabinet with the Titebond.
Here are my thoughts (right or wrong - comments welcomed. :thumb:):
I don’t have the wherewithal to make these braces with the precision needed to ensure that all of the pieces will fit exactly, without one piece pushing on another piece or having gaps too large for conventional glue. I see this happening with the internal braces in this speaker design where one brace may be either slightly smaller or larger than any other pieces, which may in turn affect the “size” of this cabinet. I want the “size” of the cabinet to be defined by the external panels. Additionally, I will need some “slop” in the location of the slots for the braces to absorb any misalignment from side to side resulting from any inaccuracies from locating the slots in the panels. Therefore, all of the internal braces will need to be undersized and the slots into which they will be fit will need to be slightly oversized. The PL adhesive seems to be a good solution for this application as the bonding would seem to be less gap sensitive. I am not talking huge gaps here. Maybe 1/32nd to 1/16th, but I figure any gaps of this size will not glue well with the Titebond.
As I said, I plan for the rest of the cabinet to be assembled with the Titebond.
I see this speaker as being a more difficult one to do the assembly on because of the 7 braces in it and the front panel needing to be installed at a later time, so the no-Rez, crossover and wiring can be installed. Right now I am puzzling through how best to do this within my abilities.
I do appreciate other people’s thoughts here...
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Jon, the only place I've recommended PL is the pocket for the dowel brace on the X-LS. Here's the thing with most all polyurethane adhesives; they expand to some degree when they cure. In the case of the dowel, the slow cure and expansion is right for the task. I purposely left 1/16" clearance side to side and about .010 around circumference of pocket.
In this specific case, I wanted the dowel not to interfere with assembly of the rest of cabinet, hence the clearances. As the PL cures after the cabinet is clamped up, it expands to fill the potential void at bottom of pocket and "pressure" is relieved via the side clearance. It's gnat's eyelash stuff, but it's how my mind works.
In your case, I think the expansion might actually be a detriment, as there's no method of clamping or restraint, so it effectively pushes brace away from surface and results in a less-strong bond, that's solely dependent on the shear strength of the adhesive, not good.
I did use Titebond III, or what they now call Ultimate, on the panel to panel diagonal braces. It has a little more viscosity and "suction" than Titebond I but either would work. It also has a tiny bit more gap filling qualities than Titebond I.
You should be able to get a reasonable result with the tools you have. I don't think I'd spend much effort on textbook perfect joints. I get your reasoning, but in all honesty, you may be swatting flies with a sledgehammer, but only you can judge what you're looking at there.
Bear in mind, all speaker cabinets don't have to withstand the "truck" test to be viable.
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Peter - thanks for taking the time to help me with this.
Jon, the only place I've recommended PL is the pocket for the dowel brace on the X-LS. Here's the thing with most all polyurethane adhesives; they expand to some degree when they cure. In the case of the dowel, the slow cure and expansion is right for the task. I purposely left 1/16" clearance side to side and about .010 around circumference of pocket.
In this specific case, I wanted the dowel not to interfere with assembly of the rest of cabinet, hence the clearances. As the PL cures after the cabinet is clamped up, it expands to fill the potential void at bottom of pocket and "pressure" is relieved via the side clearance. It's gnat's eyelash stuff, but it's how my mind works.
Peter - your description of the clearances on your dowel assembly is almost exactly the same as my plans for the internal braces. There will be a pocket with about 10 mil clearance to the sides of the pocket and some amount of clearance between the panels of the cabinet and the brace (your 1/16th sounds good for that).
This is a mockup of what I already tried out. The left side is gluing using the TiteBond and the right side is the PL adhesive:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209927)
And here is what the PL adhesive looks like in the joint. Note that the magnified section in the top of the picture is the TiteBond and the bottom magnified area is the PL adhesive. This was, in part, what I based my decision on:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209928)
Yes, the pieces making up the pockets (light color wood) are less than square. But that appears to show the sensitivity of the TiteBond to excess clearance. This amount of clearance is probably along the lines of what I will have.
The final assembly will use 1/2” quarter round instead of the 1/2x3/4 stock in the mockup.
... you may be swatting flies with a sledgehammer, but only you can judge what you're looking at there.
Bear in mind, all speaker cabinets don't have to withstand the "truck" test to be viable.
:lol:
You are absolutely right. Overthinking things. Or is it procrastination? I am probably good at both... :duh:
And it would not be the first time that I made something that could support a “truck” just to carry me.. :roll:
“...only you can judge what you're looking at there. ” - I appreciate this. Actually, I think I am on the right path and you have “filled in” one thing about this that I have been pondering. That is, the gap between the braces and the cabinet panel...
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Ok, I haven’t done any routing on MDF, but this stuff isn’t working the way I hoped. I am doing some practice running runs, and a good thing too. At the end of a run the router will chunk off a piece. This happens no matter how slow I put the piece through. I am using a brand new Amana 3/4” dia 2 flute router bit on a Craftsman hand router mounted in a table. Now, the chunk isn’t harming anything. But, it didn’t seem right...
Any help/advice?
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211165)
clamp a piece of wood on the side of the mdf that the router bit will be exiting on. This will help to prevent tear out. Does that make sense?
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Actually, yes it does :thumb:
Thanks, I’ll give it a try.
Now I just need to get those longer clamps... :duh:
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Jon,
You seem to be doing some things in a very unusual manner and I think it's making the project more difficult than it needs to be. These are things that have been done many times before by woodworkers and speaker builders, so there really is no reason to invent new approaches that are actually more work and less accurate.
I’m speaking specifically about the idea of adding parallel pieces to the insides of the panels to form a pocket for the internal braces. This is much more easily done by simply routing a dado that is the same width as the thickness of the bracing material.
If you can’t find a router bit that matches that dimension then there are well established techniques for routing the dado in two passes with a slightly smaller bit. You can get essential a perfect fit that way, and it’s not difficult to do.
You should be able to find some YouTube videos that show you exactly how to do it. Let me know if you can’t find any and I’ll look for them for you.
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Nope, I am not one to follow conventional wisdom. :o
I have given consideration to routing grooves in the panels for braces and concluded I needed to do something different given what I have available to do this. I had 2 major considerations. For me, all of that would have to be setup and routed with a hand held router. With 7 brackets, 2 or 3 panels and 2 speakers that would be 28 or 42 separate setups and cuts to make. Then there is the precision to which these will all have to be done. I know the MDF is slightly thinner than a standard 3/4” router bit, but it is still a snug fit which will require a bit of side to side precision.
And a big factor for me was how to control all of that dust... I have little in the way of dust collection ability and what I do have is centered around the stationary tools I have. Using a hand held router would require the fabrication of dust collector system for it. And then there is my personal disdain for hoses and wire/cords that have to follow me around and are very adapt at following Murphy’s Law (if there is something for them to get tangled on, they will always move in a way to get tangled).
The practice pieces I did was to test out my idea. For me it was simple to do. Bear with me on this one. Hopefully you will see how this works for me. Or I fail, miserably... :bawl:
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Dados, pockets, etc. make alignment easier but are not essential. Butt joints are plenty strong. Adding additional material reduces the internal volume and can affect the tuning. If you want to use the pocket idea to keep alignment, don’t glue the pieces to the cabinet. Cover them with packing tape so glue won’t stickto them and clamp them to the cabinet until the glue on the brace Is dry then remove the guide blocks. Be sure the pieces being glued are aligned front to back. You don’t want anything overhanging a side.
You glue the braces to one side at a time. The trick is going to be keeping the sides aligned and square. One way to do this is make the top and bottom the same size as the full length braces and the side lengths the overall height of the cabinet. Glue the top and bottom pieces on at the same time as the internal braces. After the braces and ends are glues to one side, glue the back on making sure the ends and braces are square. Then glue the other side on keeping all edges aligned.
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I have started routing. For practice I am going to make a small box that will mimic the speaker cabinets I am making.
As I noted previously I have not worked with MDF before. It actually cuts pretty well. The router bit does leave a bit of feathering. Given that this will be a glued surface I suspect this will be ok. I am starting with a small Craftsman router table with a 1 hp Craftsman router mount in it.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211170)
Made in USA :D
I first made 3/8” deep cuts in the side and end pieces using the table saw. I figured this would make the actual routing less critical.
Sides:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211171)
Top and bottom:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211173)
The actual routing went well. I used a scrap piece to set the router height and then went to work.
Long side piece routed. It did have a piece pop off but it is hard to see where.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211176)
I tried making a smaller cut but the end piece still popped. This happened no mater how slow I went.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211174)
I think I have 2 choices.... use a piece of wood clamped to the trailing edge of the piece I am routing, as was suggested, or just leave it and let the glue and clamping “fix it”; the pieces do pop of pretty cleanly.
The final test/practice box, dry fit together. This represents the back, 2 sides, and the top and bottom.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211177)
The outside edges came out well with a touch of overage that would need to be trimmed off, if this was the actual cabinet. There is one inside edge where there is a gap, which I will look into a little. It didn’t close up with the clamps, so I suspect that I miss a little when I did the relief cut on the table saw.
Overall, this was quite a success. It took me about an hour to cut the 5 pieces and do the routing. Much quicker than I thought it would take and the dry fit assemble looks good. I am pleased with how the router table worked. I was hoping it would work as the dust collection on it is really good. I am thinking that I may have to get a roller to support the longer pieces, but that is a minor bother.
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Nope, I am not one to follow conventional wisdom.
That is certainly true, and you can build it anyway you want. However, you have been touting this thread as a tutorial for others to follow and I have to take strong exception to that idea.
In some respects you are doing things in very unconventional ways. So I would caution anyone from using this as a tutorial. Particularly, since it's coming from someone with admittedly a limited amount of experience in woodworking.
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That is certainly true, and you can build it anyway you want. However, you have been touting this thread as a tutorial for others to follow and I have to take strong exception to that idea.
In some respects you are doing things in very unconventional ways. So I would caution anyone from using this as a tutorial. Particularly, since it's coming from someone with admittedly a limited amount of experience in woodworking.
And you may be right in the long run...
And I respect your comments.
Maybe I should have said this is a thread of “other thoughts”.... :lol:
Still, I would like to think this will come together in the end. If nothing else I hope the discussion here provides others with thoughts about how to come through a project such as this. Not just my thoughts, but with the thoughts of others who post here.
I am making an effort to record my thoughts and decisions so others can see they may not be alone in “why this, why that”. My intent was not for this to be a tutorial as to how to build one of these. I am not qualified to do that. And there are plenty of threads here on AC that clearly show the right way to make these and other speakers. My intent is for this thread to be a discussion as to how a novice comes through the build of one of these so others can see they can do it too.
I intend to show experiments/mockups/practices I have done so others understand how I have gotten to where I am. I think it is good for someone who is hesitant to do one of these to see what someone else’s thoughts are for doing this. I also believe that it is important for a novice to understand the value in practicing things and to mock them up before cutting chips on a final product. If something i do is a failure, I will say so.
By me making these posts may also encourages others to make comments, such as your, so people see different points of view. Surely, I don’t consider mine to be “right” .
Rest assured, I believe that your input and comments and those of others are in integral part of this being being what this thread should be. I have a better understanding of the glues and adhesives because of this input. So, please continue to follow and comment.
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There is a lot to be said for practicing, if you are like me and are without a lot of experience with these things. In this case, as I said, I have little experience doing routing and never on the MDF. Based on the little experience I do have with wood, I first cut a groove in the MDF with the table saw. This had helped me in the past to prevent chipping wood pieces (maybe also due to dull bits :oops:). I thought the same would be of a benefit with the MDF.
Nope! I found that the relief cut was actually causing the chunking I was having.
I took another look at the box I made (see above) and noticed that the chunks that came out also left a depression, which was not good for fitup. The depression resulted in gaps in the fitup at the edges, which I thought were larger than what the glue would fill and these would likely be unsightly in the end.
I went back to the router with some scrap pieces of MDF and tried just make the full cut with the router. I have a brand new bit in it, and it did a nice clean cut.
No chipping or chunking. Problem solved! No relief cut prior to routing the MDF...
Another note, I left the setup of the router on the table the way it was when I had done the routing after doing the relief cut. So the practice I just did resulted in a bit of an undersized cut. This left room to do the table saw relief cut (now a cleanup cut?) after doing the routing. This, too, worked really well and cleaned up “oops” that seem to always occur when I run a piece on the router table. These are “oops” in the direction of “in and out“, “not up and down”, so the cleanup cut works week to correct this. This is probably a result of me not doing well pushing it through, along with not having the world’s best table. I suppose I could do this routing with an edge guide and hand holding the router, but I am finding the table routing along with the cleanup cut on the table saw to be quick and accurate. Plus the table allows for great dust control.
With this done, I have a bit more confidence in going forward with the cabinets.
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For reference, I found these threads that cover topics helpful to me:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=100369.60
This includes discussion about magnetics and other stuff.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128392.0
This covers the build of a set of X-MTMs
A question to anyone...
The second thread shows the X-MTM cabinets without the fronts on to facilitate installation of no-Rez and other stuff.
Is there a preference with these as to which panel (front or back) that gets left off?
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A question to anyone...
The second thread shows the X-MTM cabinets without the fronts on to facilitate installation of no-Rez and other stuff.
Is there a preference with these as to which panel (front or back) that gets left off?
Dealer's choice, methinks. I'd probably do baffle last, just to minimize the possibility of it from getting barked up some way.
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Dealer's choice, methinks. I'd probably do baffle last, just to minimize the possibility of it from getting barked up some way.
+1 I do the front baffle last.
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Thanks.
I was leaning to doing the front last. I had a few thoughts why doing the back last might be good, but nothing overly compelling.
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A trip to the Dark Side
As a way to practice and to see what I am up against, I have built a miniature of my speaker cabinet the way I plan to build it. I have not yet glued it together, but it has been fully dry fit will success. I have learned a lot from this...
I tried to cut external pieces oversized and internal pieces undersized. I achieved only moderate success with this. What I found in the dry assembly was that a 1/32nd over and 1/32nd under seems to come out pretty much dead on... So I need to be careful with this and to get enough difference so I don’t have a net underage.
I want the sides and top and bottom to be the “controlling” pieces so all of those joints are tight. Then I want the inner recess of the front panel to just fit into the “box” formed by those other pieces. Same with the back panel. This may mean that some of the panels may need to be trimmed a bit to make this all happen. This will be done based on the way it looks in the dry assembly.
Overall the test cabinet took less time and effort than I thought it would. Overall, it is quite tolerant of little imprecisions. So, I can relax a bit and not sweat the small stuff.
I did some more routing and then trimming of the relief using the table saw. This continues to work well.
I need to do better at marking the panels as to what goes where and orientation.
I should have made this test box before I cut any of the full size panels... :duh: I expect they are all OK. Mostly I hope the ones that are intended to have overage, have enough overage. Otherwise, the cabinet may be a “hair” smaller than planned...
The trip to the Dark Side seems to be working out...
Here are the side panels with the layout started for the addition of the quarter rounds.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211311)
One thing I figured was that the location of the braces will be controlled by the recess lip and where it meets up with the back panel. So I did the location mark measurement along that edge and used a square to draw the location line for the quarter round.
I then transferred the layout from each side panel to the back panel and then drew a line on the back panel using those transfer marks. I hope to use these for reference to locate the braces while gluing but before the sides are in place.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211312)
The 3 panels with layout lines and the quarter round all cut.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211313)
I used Titebond III to glue the quarter round to the panel and then used a brad nailer to hold the quarter round in place while the glue dried.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211314)
I then used a spacer to locate the opposing quarter round. I happen to have a piece of 3/4” square tube that I used. This could have been anything that was 3/4” in size. I wrapped a piece of thick tape on the bottom and the sides. This was to ensure some small clearance between the quarter round and the brace that will later be fit within.
Spacer with tape:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209925)
Fitting quarter round with spacer. Again, these are glued and tacked in place with the brad nailer.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211315)
All of the pieces before the dry fitup:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211319)
The assembly looking in from the backside:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211317)
One of the things I found in an earlier dry fitup was that the back panel was oversized, even though I cut it to what I thought was undersized. Here is the back panel placed on the sides/top/bottom assembly. What you see is about 1/32nd overage. But, this was enough to cause gaps in the fitup of the sides/top/bottom pieces that would not press out with the clamps. This was correctable with a small trim on the table saw. But it was a heads up for me that there may be pieces that will need to be customized to fit correctly.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211318)
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Has anyone had any experience with the TiteBond Quick & Thick wood glue?
http://www.titebond.com/product/glues/d1b48beb-7d60-4ce7-b57b-6bf19351778b#
They say it is a new product. It has a set and workable time that is similar to the TiteBond II, but seems that it would be good for vertical surfaces.
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Boy that is some rough and soft looking MDF. No wonder you have trouble with chunks breaking off. Next time look for some premium quality MDF You will find it much better to work with.
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Has anyone had any experience with the TiteBond Quick & Thick wood glue?
http://www.titebond.com/product/glues/d1b48beb-7d60-4ce7-b57b-6bf19351778b#
They say it is a new product. It has a set and workable time that is similar to the TiteBond II, but seems that it would be good for vertical surfaces.
Yes, I use it and vertical surfaces is where it works best. However, it does not have as much open time as the II or III.
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That is good to know... Thanks!
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From the photos it looks like you are not getting a square edge on the panels. Table saw may still need more adjusting.
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I could do a plain butt joint for the braces, as was suggested above, along with the comment this will be plenty strong.
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I could do a plain butt joint for the braces, as was suggested above, along with the comment this will be plenty strong.
Only if you are able to cut the ends square and the braces to a precise width. And that width may vary from cabinet to cabinet or even at different locations within the same cabinet.
The best approach is to cut dados to accept the braces with a router. Need to make the dado width just a hair larger than the thickness of the braces. If too tight assembly may be difficult and you will have to pound it together with a rubber mallet after applying glue.
Have you watched the YouTube videos I mentioned previously about how to cut precise width dados?
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I think I went overboard on buying glue:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211416)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I even got sucked into the “special” Titebond brush (or 2)... :o
This all started with me looking into the Titebond web page to see what was available. A couple of the glues I had on hand from a while back and I had picked up the Titebond III as was used in one of the videos. I started with a simple curiosity question... Which is the worst for runs when put vertical. So a dab of Titebond Original and III went on a piece of MDF. It was tilted up on edge and the the III won the contest... It ran immediately.
Then came the thought as to how strong a butt joint would if it was made with no clamping force. The web page suggests that 100 to 200 psi clamping pressure is needed for bonding various woods. This would be 1000 to 2000 lbs of clamping force for every 10 in^2. With 7 braces (figuring each is about 10^2 of contact with the side panels), it would take 7000 to 14,000 lbs of clamping force to make this work... That ain’t happenin’... Or did I miss read the web page?
At any rate, I stuck a small of MDF into each dab of glue I had and hand pressed the pieces just enough to get the glue to come out the edges. After a day of drying I broke off each of the pieces I had glued onto the 1st piece. I was a bit surprised to see that the weakest part of all of this was the MDF.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211417)
At the bottom of this picture you can see on the ends of the the glued pieces where the MDF was ripped out. A really odd thing was that the piece that was glued with the Titebond III was the easiest to break off. Maybe the MDF under it wasn’t as strong there as it was under the other piece?
At the top of this picture, I tried the other 2 glues; the Quick & Thick and the Titebond II. As you can see, I was not able to break the pieces off without the MDF just totally separating. While I would guess this type of separation would be unlike in an actual assembly if it was pulled on with any amount of force. It seems more likely, if the joint was pulled on, the surface of the MDF would pull off like it did with the first two glue joints I made. It also seems that glue makes for a quite strong bond even without clamping, which should work well enough for the braces. The braces have a little clearance to the side panels and to the back panel and likely vary a bit on width. Having a reasonable bond even without clamping, will make clamp less critical for the braces and I can concentrate on having strong clamping to make up the joints of the remainder of the cabinet.
I liked the Quick and Thick and I think it will be a good choice for the bracket assembly. Next I liked the Titebond Original and the Titebond II. I know the work times are short with all of these. I think I can stage the assembly in a way to accommodate this... We shall see.
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Are you sure that is really MDF? It looks more like some sort of particle board.
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Are you sure that is really MDF? It looks more like some sort of particle board.
Hmmmmm.....
Can you tell the difference
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211419)
And I looked through the trash to find the tag...
But didn’t find it...
This may not be the highest quality MDF, but it is what is sold around here. And it is likely what any other amateur will to be able to get their hands on.
Please, feel free to comment about my work and how I approach this project. Clearly you have expertise well beyond that of which I or any other amateur might have. That expertise is of interest to me. But, also, please be really careful on your choice of words when forming a question such as this. It might come across as calling someone “stupid”.
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I'm not the only one to question your material. Sonicjoy did the same thing a few posts above. I don't know what you have, but it does not appear to cut or perform in the same way MDF usually does.
However, if you are so sensitive that questions like that bother you, then perhaps it would be better for others to be providing help to you without me.
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Boy that is some rough and soft looking MDF. No wonder you have trouble with chunks breaking off. Next time look for some premium quality MDF You will find it much better to work with.
I'm not the only one to question your material. Sonicjoy did the same thing a few posts above. I don't know what you have, but it does not appear to cut or perform in the same way MDF usually does.
However, if you are so sensitive that questions like that bother you, then perhaps it would be better for others to be providing help to you without me.
Sonicjoy remarked that it looked to be soft and rough, and that I should look for a premium quality, but still called it MDF. I’ll admit to it maybe being low quality. We have big box stores and some small indie places, but around here it is all about “cheap”. So I got what I could and the label stapled to to each board said “MDF 0.734x49x96” (96? Don’t remember exactly).
Unfortunately there is no grading system applied to this material. MDF is MDF, right? Clearly not by what I am hearing. But, if you are a person not deeply immersed in wood working, how is one to even know to ask the question or even what question to ask? If I know to ask a question, I will ask.
Your comment (“I don’t know what you have...”) does beg the question - Do you have a good picture of what MDF is supposed to look like so I know what to look for the next time?
Like I said, your input is welcomed and ask questions if you wish.
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To be fair, the MDF at your typical "home improvement" store is always on the cheap side, and is more likely to chip, fray & flake along the edges, even with good tools. Same goes for the vast majority of "builder-grade" plywoods, but it's also accessable and readily available.
If you want the "good stuff," you need to find a place that specializes in higher quality materials.. Of course it means that you're adding to the cost of said materials. For some that extra time/money/travel isn't always an option. And its not like you can't use the cheaper products, but there are trade-offs.
In the end, you gotta come to your own decision about what compromises you consider to be acceptable.
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Please, feel free to comment about my work and how I approach this project. Clearly you have expertise well beyond that of which I or any other amateur might have. That expertise is of interest to me. But, also, please be really careful on your choice of words when forming a question such as this. It might come across as calling someone “stupid”.
There is nothing wrong with way I have written the last several posts, but if you are so sensitive to peoples wording then I think it's best for others to help you. I have no interest in walking around on egg shells to prevent possibly offending your senses. Considering your very unorthodox approach to things that I have commented on before you would do well to take advice from any where you can get it, and not criticize the advisor over his writing style.
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Jon, do some digging to see where local carpenters/cabinet builders get their supplies. Unless you're very remote, there's usually some kind of lumber yard around. If you can find something like that you should be able to find better quality MDF. It definitely is not all created equal... the stuff they have at my local HD is straight up particle board, it looks like a sponge.
Take a look at how the wood looks in this picture - you can see the panels appear totally uniform, there's no apparent "chunks" or "fibers" of wood unless you're right up close to an edge looking right at it, and even then it's more a texture thing. It cuts and glues nice and clean. You also need a good sharp blade on your table saw, MDF is not the easiest to cut.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211435)
From your photo you posted, it looks like what you have is better than particle board but still a bit lower quality than is ideal. That's not to say you can't use it, it's just not the ideal quality and will be a little more difficult to work with as a result. My guess is it will take a bit more work to sand smooth and will be a bit more absorbent when you start painting which again, is fine, you'll just have a bit more work to do to get it looking the way you want potentially. Take your time, make sure you use enough glue and clamp your joints well, and move methodically along. If you are able to get the box glued up solid but have some rough edges or edges that stick out, you can fix those with a flush trim bit on your router or sandpaper and elbow grease.
Regarding butt joints vs dados, I used simple butt joints for my X-Statics and it worked out fine. Just make sure you dry fit before you start to ensure they're square and flush, and then figure out how to get some clamps on them. I don't have the ability to do dados with my current tools & space so I just went with butt joints and went slow. Taking my time on the table saw allowed me to have minimal issues with fit when it came to the braces.
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To be fair, the MDF at your typical "home improvement" store is always on the cheap side, and is more likely to chip, fray & flake along the edges, even with good tools. Same goes for the vast majority of "builder-grade" plywoods, but it's also accessable and readily available.
If you want the "good stuff," you need to find a place that specializes in higher quality materials.. Of course it means that you're adding to the cost of said materials. For some that extra time/money/travel isn't always an option. And its not like you can't use the cheaper products, but there are trade-offs.
In the end, you gotta come to your own decision about what compromises you consider to be acceptable.
Like a lot of things one tries to buy these days, it takes some effort to find the “good stuff”. But you also need to know that there is good stuff out there to buy. But, I suspect, that for the function of the speakers, what I have is fine. The chunking problem, I have solved that. I just changed how I was cutting it. There is a bit of residual “feathering” that I have to deal with, and a bit of light sand addresses that. So far I have not had any other particular issues. Although, I will say that an advantage of buying at some of the big box places is that, if you find a damaged piece, you can usually get a pretty good discount...
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Jon, do some digging to see where local carpenters/cabinet builders get their supplies. Unless you're very remote, there's usually some kind of lumber yard around. If you can find something like that you should be able to find better quality MDF. It definitely is not all created equal... the stuff they have at my local HD is straight up particle board, it looks like a sponge.
Would you happen to know of a brand or manufacturer who makes the “good stuff”? Actual, that question could go out to anyone who might know...
Take a look at how the wood looks in this picture - you can see the panels appear totally uniform, there's no apparent "chunks" or "fibers" of wood unless you're right up close to an edge looking right at it, and even then it's more a texture thing. It cuts and glues nice and clean. You also need a good sharp blade on your table saw, MDF is not the easiest to cut.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211435)
Your MDF is much lighter in color than mine. Can’t quite see the texture, but I think I understand what you are saying. For the next time, maybe. I will see how this all finishes up with what I have, then I will decide it it is worth the effort.
My saw blade, down spiral cutter and 3/4” router bit are cutting my stuff well. I think I am as good as I can get there. While my cutters are all carbide, I will keep an eye on any potential dulling of these. I would guess this stuff can be a bit abrasive.
BTY - The clamps I have seen in various post get to be really innovative. I like the corner clamp in your picture.
From your photo you posted, it looks like what you have is better than particle board but still a bit lower quality than is ideal. That's not to say you can't use it, it's just not the ideal quality and will be a little more difficult to work with as a result. My guess is it will take a bit more work to sand smooth and will be a bit more absorbent when you start painting which again, is fine, you'll just have a bit more work to do to get it looking the way you want potentially. Take your time, make sure you use enough glue and clamp your joints well, and move methodically along. If you are able to get the box glued up solid but have some rough edges or edges that stick out, you can fix those with a flush trim bit on your router or sandpaper and elbow grease.
Regarding butt joints vs dados, I used simple butt joints for my X-Statics and it worked out fine. Just make sure you dry fit before you start to ensure they're square and flush, and then figure out how to get some clamps on them. I don't have the ability to do dados with my current tools & space so I just went with butt joints and went slow. Taking my time on the table saw allowed me to have minimal issues with fit when it came to the braces.
The elbow grease, I’ve got plenty of... :green:
And taking time is aways a good suggestion. Hence all of my practicing, and dry fitting.
I am going to do the butt joints for the braces, but with the quarter round as locators. I know this is unconventional, but I have tried it several times now on practice pieces and it seems to facilitate the build nicely. I also know the quarter round will take up internal volume, but I will compensate for that (More to come on that). I also figure the glue I will use will compensate for any clearances I have between the braces and the side panels so I won’t have to custom fit each one.
As was suggested above, I looked into doing the Dado for the braces:
https://youtu.be/UXvLLsG5AKI
And I tried it on some scrap...
The dado is a no-go for me. The dust is unbelievable and will be really hard for me to capture. Also, when I saw the the “love tap” the guy had to do in the video to assemble just one joint, I figure that, with 14 tight fitting joints in my project that may need to be “tapped” together at one time and before the glue sets, is beyond what I see happening in my shop. If the butt joints are acceptable for this speaker, then I see no point to the dado.
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From the photos it looks like you are not getting a square edge on the panels. Table saw may still need more adjusting.
This I did recheck:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211445)
For the tools I have (considering the bump in the table of my table saw), this will have to do.
In the pictures I posted that seem to show this, I am not sure I had everything fully clamped together and square in the fitup, which may be some of what is being seen as not square. I will, however, keep an eye on this as I continue into my dry fitup.
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Would you happen to know of a brand or manufacturer who makes the “good stuff”? Actual, that question could go out to anyone who might know...
Your MDF is much lighter in color than mine. Can’t quite see the texture, but I think I understand what you are saying. For the next time, maybe. I will see how this all finishes up with what I have, then I will decide it it is worth the effort.
My saw blade, down spiral cutter and 3/4” router bit are cutting my stuff well. I think I am as good as I can get there. While my cutters are all carbide, I will keep an eye on any potential dulling of these. I would guess this stuff can be a bit abrasive.
BTY - The clamps I have seen in various post get to be really innovative. I like the corner clamp in your picture.
The elbow grease, I’ve got plenty of... :green:
And taking time is aways a good suggestion. Hence all of my practicing, and dry fitting.
I am going to do the butt joints for the braces, but with the quarter round as locators. I know this is unconventional, but I have tried it several times now on practice pieces and it seems to facilitate the build nicely. I also know the quarter round will take up internal volume, but I will compensate for that (More to come on that). I also figure the glue I will use will compensate for any clearances I have between the braces and the side panels so I won’t have to custom fit each one.
As was suggested above, I looked into doing the Dado for the braces:
https://youtu.be/UXvLLsG5AKI
And I tried it on some scrap...
The dado is a no-go for me. The dust is unbelievable and will be really hard for me to capture. Also, when I saw the the “love tap” the guy had to do in the video to assemble just one joint, I figure that, with 14 tight fitting joints in my project that may need to be “tapped” together at one time and before the glue sets, is beyond what I see happening in my shop. If the butt joints are acceptable for this speaker, then I see no point to the dado.
I've not seen any brand names associated with MDF. What I have seen, is that each place you go to will have "MDF" and it's not always the same quality. Luckily for me there's a place relatively close to me with good quality stock.
The corner braces I used are called Can-Do Braces and you can get them on Amazon. I like them a lot.
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The two brands of high density MDF I know well are Medex and Ranger Board Platinum. The brands will vary with region of the country you're in. Shipping is expensive for manufacturers.
Here's a methodology you might consider...I think I saw a brad gun in your photos. Variations of the general theme would work too.
Around here I can get a stock molding profile from lumber yards called "chamfer strip". In one cabinet shop I worked in we called is glue blocking. I've also seen them called "cant strips". An example here:
https://craftwoodproducts.com/product/mouldings/solid-wood-mouldings/miscellaneous-wood/0w995-pine-solid-wood-chamfer-strip/
Essentially:
1. Mark shelf brace location on sides
2. glue and nail a single strip on one side of shelf marks
3. Assemble box in the way that makes most sense
4. Install shelf braces with a little glue and maybe a brad or two
5. Glue and possibly nail opposite side glue block, pushing into crux of side and shelf brace
Pictures mo' betta than words, methinks
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211447)
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Thank you 2 for the information on the MDF. That is a good point about locality and shipping. I may not be able to get around here what you get around you. So knowing a manufacturer might not help me. I will look into the suggested brands. But, maybe my best bet is to look for a supply place around here that is more high end.
I thought about using beveled pieces, as they would be easy to make myself. I then figured the quarter round would be readily available around here. Also, quarter round pieces would not create any bad reflections. Would that actually be an issue? Don’t know, but I have watch too many of Danny’s videos to think that would not happen... :o
I like your suggestion on how to sequence the assembly of the braces. That would be simple. I can modify the practice box to try it. Of course it maybe too small for the brad nailer, but I would expect the actual to be big enough. :thumb:
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When I want Medex, I go to my local lumber yard ( not Home Depot or Lowes ) and they order it for me. Make a few calls and see what you can find.
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Again, something I have not thought of doing ... Thanks
I just figure you get what they have. I used to have a place called “Friend’s Lumber”. They did well at having really nice lumber. Alas, no more. But the place now is still regional. Maybe they can do something for me. I’ll do some searches for the next time. But this is good information for me and anyone else thinking of doing a speaker kit and is going at it with limited knowledge.
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Most lumber yards are small, but they all deal with suppliers. When I was in construction I used to order a lot of stuff that was not in stock.
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On a lot of things I have done, it is the journey that is most fun (here, I am expecting great things from the destination, too). And part of that journey is getting to buy new things. I don’t think I have gone overboard (yet). Only buying “necessary” stuff... Such as my most recent order for:
This I know I will need as I know there is no such thing as “too much glue” :duh:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211464)
It is a Whiteside 1/4” down spiral flush trim bit. I saw this used by someone else around here... and I have had good luck with the down spiral cutters for some things. I also have a more conventional straight carbide trim bit. I can try both and see which works best for me.
I am pretty impressed with my cordless router and I bought a plunge base for it. It seems that this is a must for some of the routing that I will need to do...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211466)
I have come a long ways since the days of cutting everything for a set of speakers using nothing but a saber saw... :green: Veneer covers a lot of ills...
And this, I have no planned use for it, but it seemed like a good idea when I was clicking on things to put into my cart... :roll:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211467)
Oh, there are also a bunch of squeeze bottles coming for glue...
Getting ready, set...at some point there will be a go... :lol:
Then I need to place an order with Danny for components and what not. I am sure he is waiting... But that will be after I am sure of the cabinets.
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I thought I would post one last picture of the MDF I bought. Maybe this will help to steer someone away from this, or if they do get some of it, they can see what they are getting into. This piece was first cut to size on the table saw, then it was routed to put in the recess and the recess was then trimmed to size on the table saw. I did that last step because I am not that good with the router table and running a piece through it. The edge came out slightly wavy, but it cut just fine. So the trim cut was to remove the waviness. The “burn” was from the table saw... I think that just is what it is at this point. I think the worst part is the surface cut by the top of the router bit and the fuzziness that it left behind. But that is all in the glue joint and will disappear.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211636)
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I tried to think of a good lead-in for this post...
Mo’ glue. Mo’ better
Wingin’ it is a plan; not
There are not enough clamps in the world
Think you see where this is going? Glueing is a Fricken Fracken misery!
I got greedy and tried to do it all in one sitting. What was it that someone said? Patients; take your time. And what was my response? Sure, that is what I do and why I practice.
Well, even with practice one needs patients (take notes Jon, good notes :o)
I tried glueing up the practice box I built. I had removed the quarter rounds from one set of pockets I had made to see how well Peter’s idea would work. And then set to work glueing this thing together.
I’ll start with the success parts...
- Peter’s idea was fantastic and worked really well.
- I covered the inside face of the front panel with that stretchy, Saran Wrap like stuff that is used to bundle things together. This was to keep from gluing the front to the rest of the assembly as that needed to be last. It worked.
- I installed a Tee nut in the front panel where the pretend center for one of the speaker drivers would be, This was to give myself a way to remove the front panel after the glue set up. It worked
- The Titebond glue brushes worked well...
- The Quick and Thick glue is useful in the right areas.
What I learned:
Planning. Lay out the clamps so they are ready for use. Come up with a sequence to assemble the pieces. Plan small steps that can be done one at a time and the glue allowed to set. Peter’s idea will work nicely into this.
I need the corner clamps that were noted prior. These will help greatly with the “small step” part.
Make sure new clamps work they way they should before needing to use them and finding out they don’t... :oops:
Need a good glue brush holders... so they don’t fall over and get glue in/on places you don’t want it.
My basic plan is to:
- put on the one of the quarter round side of the brace locaters as Peter suggested.
- Assemble over the front panel (but not glued to) the top, bottom and 2 sides, glue the 4 corners and let it set up. These will need to be clamped quite well; something I need to figure out. This is where the corner clamps will be used.
- One at a time glue in the braces, lightly clamp and let setup. I think the second corner piece is a good idea and I found that it glues into place easily.
- Check the fit of the bottom piece, adjust as needed, then glue and clump.
- All of this will be done with front in place but not glued.
As for the good, bad and ugly...
A couple of good things...
I installed a Tee nut in the inside of the front panel so I could pull it out after all else is glued.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211637)
I used the front panel as a jig for the assembly of the sides. I knew gluing had the potential to be messy so I covered it with bundling film. I didn’t wrap it (I tried that) as it didn’t allow the sides/top/bottom pieces to fit into the recess. The nice things about this stuff are that it is stretchy but strong, and it clings to itself so it makes a complete cover.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211638)
I removed one side of one of the pockets I had made in the side panels so I could try out Peter’s idea. I left the other pocket in place so I could see how the 2 ideas compared. The complete pocket idea turned out to be not a good one, nor would be a dado. This also show the glue I put into the pocket. The “white” glue is the “Quick and Thick”.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211639)
Here is the brace in place in the pockets of the 2 sides. The end cap there is just a place holder to keep things square.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211641)
Here is the “Peter” brace. Again I used the Thick glue which I spread on the side rail and the panel side. it would have been a good idea to have fully marked where the brace was to go so I would know how far to spread the glue. After pressing the brace in place I put a bead of glue (too much) in the corner for the second piece of quarter round. The glue is thick enough to hold everything in place.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211642)
And this is where I realized that I had the sequence wrong and got flustered. I didn’t have any way to keep this all square, without installing the top and bottom pieces. And it went downhill from there.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211643)
The problem at this point was that I put glue on the recess part of the top and bottom panel where the back panel would be going, but that wasn’t needed at this point and I was afraid that it would be beyond its set time before I got to the point of putting the bottom on. So I wiped it off. Another mess...
Then there was clamping this whole mess...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211644)
And a mess it was. I had clamp failures. I had too much glue. I had glue setting up. I couldn’t get things clamped evenly. The MDF is too flexible for this sort of thing... :banghead:
After a day setup, I did get the front panel off with no problems... and this was what I was faced with....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211645)
No drips, no runs, no errrors...
Yah, right! Time to rethink things.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211646)
The brace in the forefront was done based on Peter’s suggestion and as you can see it is nicely located and held in place. This was a good use of the Quick and Thick glue.
For the rest of it, because I plan to break this down into smaller steps, I plan to use the Titebond II. It is a bit thicker than the III and I think will be easier for me to deal with. As for working time, my planned steps should be quick, so I expect to have plenty of time.
And I know some of you got a good chuckle from all of this. I was just glad I was able to get the front panel out after all that glue setup... :lol: :green: A win for me... :roll:
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Woodworking is a learning process. The more you do the more you learn what not to do and what to do. Looks like things are coming together.
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True, so true.
I am just glad I did this on a practice piece. The thought went through my my mind to skip that step. That would not have been good if I had just gone to glueing the final piece and had this mess.
I started looking for corner clamps and found the one that was posted above (Can-Do brace), but there are no dimensions for it. It came to mind that there is little room in the width of this cabinet for an “internal” clamp like this. I may look harder at ones that clamp from the outside. Need to look a bit more at what will fit with all 4 corners being clamped at once.
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True, so true.
I am just glad I did this on a practice piece. The thought went through my my mind to skip that step. That would not have been good if I had just gone to glueing the final piece and had this mess.
I started looking for corner clamps and found the one that was posted above (Can-Do brace), but there are no dimensions for it. It came to mind that there is little room in the width of this cabinet for an “internal” clamp like this. I may look harder at ones that clamp from the outside. Need to look a bit more at what will fit with all 4 corners being clamped at once.
The way I got around that was to glue one piece into place at a time for the most part. It takes longer but you can get the box and the additional piece fitted and clamped, then once the glue sets up you add the next piece and clamp that one, and so forth. Trying to glue, fit, and clamp everything together all in one shot is going to be pretty tough.
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The "too much glue" syndrome is a pet peeve for me. It's the default way "more is better"!
FWIW I look at it like this, glue outside of the joint adds nothing except mess and sometimes work later to remove. Let's say one had 50% glue coverage on any given joint in MDF. At that, the joint strength likely exceeds the wood itself so what has been gained?
FWIW I guess I look at Titebond II as sort of a red headed stepchild. Shorter open time, higher application temp etc. It's only virtue is that it's light in color compared to III. Between I and III, I can achieve almost everything needed, at least in the work I do.
As Alex alluded to, a lot of woodworking is an ongoing learning process. Perhaps Alanis Morissette said it best, " you live, you learn"...
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The idea of doing one joint at a time vice all 4 joints at one time has been rattling around in my head for a while without any clear winner. But as I read what was suggested an idea interjected itself that may push things in that exact directions. That is the plastic corner squares. I can use those to hold the other 3 corners square-ish while the first corner sets up. This way I can uses all 4 sides and front as a jig and then when I clamp the glued corner it will be with respect to the whole assembly and that will include any small deviations in that assembly that would make it less than perfectly square... Hope that makes sense...
Thanks...
As for glue, Peter, I gathered from your videos that you liked the III. But I am a bit surprised that you like the I over the II, but I have no real reason for thinking that. From looking at what TiteBond says about the two glues, I thought maybe it would be an either/or and doesn’t matter. I went to the II because of its thickness and that would mean less tendency to run on me... I appreciate your comment and will take a look again at the I. Maybe I discounted it too quickly. Also, if I do one joint at a time, I can be more careful with the glueing and the thickness of the glue won’t matter as much. We shall see.
Say what? The glue running down the sides doesn’t add a thing? Yah, to the mess... :duh:
The Quick and Thick glue bottle is not good for where less than a lot is needed. It is designed to put out a ton of glue. I have bottles on order that should do better.
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Check out the last hack he shows in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp7b-kziLqU
It's another option for a jig you can easily create for yourself to glue up corner joints and you could do one a bit smaller to help it fit inside smaller panels. But honestly, if you have cut them accurately and use a good 90 degree clamp or jig to get the first joints started, you should be able to get everything lined up from there piece by piece.
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I love the hacks!
Thanks!
His inside corner piece with the 2 holes would work for me, and would be easy to make.
To the best I can check, everything I have cut is reasonably square and I think you are right that I should be good glueing one corner at a time without everything else in place. I was thinking having the 4 sides together will give me parallel surfaces to clamp against for each of the corners. Having the front in the mix should help to ensure the front will go on at the end of the whole assembly. At least that is my current thinking and maybe I am over thinking this, but, hey, this is the time to think... Not when I have glue dripping off my elbows... :lol:
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As for glue, Peter, I gathered from your videos that you liked the III. But I am a bit surprised that you like the I over the II, but I have no real reason for thinking that. From looking at what TiteBond says about the two glues, I thought maybe it would be an either/or and doesn’t matter. I went to the II because of its thickness and that would mean less tendency to run on me... I appreciate your comment and will take a look again at the I. Maybe I discounted it too quickly. Also, if I do one joint at a time, I can be more careful with the glueing and the thickness of the glue won’t matter as much. We shall see.
Say what? The glue running down the sides doesn’t add a thing? Yah, to the mess... :duh:
The Quick and Thick glue bottle is not good for where less than a lot is needed. It is designed to put out a ton of glue. I have bottles on order that should do better.
Here's my story on glue. When dinosaurs roamed, there was only Titebond and Elmers. Titebond was the de facto gold standard in the cabinet shops I worked in. If one wanted water resistance, it was resorcinol glue, a powder and liquid kinda thing, or even further out in left field was epoxy. I grew familiar and learned to trust it for all kinds of varied tasks.
Later marketing departments locked arms with the glue engineers and a single component, water resistant glue was developed...what's now Titebond II. Years later Titebond III was developed and it was not only water resistant, but waterproof, at least by their definition. In my mind, this left Titebond II in the middle with little to recommend it, but its non-brown color, which is occasionally appreciated.
I'm not sure when Franklin left the picture and Loctite entered, but they recognized the marketing and sales potential that was Big Box stores. Hence all kinds of specialized variants were developed with different formulations and smart marketing to convince the consumer of their prowess in the chosen niche. I suppose companies can't rest on their laurels, but I've never lost sight of the fact that the miles and miles of glue lines squirted from Titebond (I) bottes are, as far as I know, still holding up.
So "new and better" is often just a marketing hook...and it works. In the end, almost any wood glue one chooses will far exceed the strength of the base material it's gluing.
All this to say, choice of glue is often more about chooser and less about the glue. I'd say I've split that hair about in about as many pieces as I can, so I'll digress.
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Great digression!
Today I glued a couple of side pieces I am making. It will be one of those 3rd hand hacks in that video (more to come). I used the III just to try it for glueing 2 faces together. And I used their brushes, which are also sold generically. The brush turned into more of a comb when spreading the glue and excess glue was sucked up into the brush “fibers”, which I had to wipe off as it got filled up. It turned out that having wet wood show between streaks of glue was about perfect and the brush did well to control that. When I did the clamping, I had only little dots of glue coming out the sides. I’ll say that was a win. And more learning.
The closest I got to doing any “professional” woodworking was a summer in college working in a kitchen cabinet shop putting together door and drawer fronts. This was unskilled labor. The glue that we used was a white glue of some sort that we added a catalyst to. Over time it would setup in the bottle with the consistency of white slimy jello. That was where I learned that a 1/32” difference in wood size would leave a gap that could not be pressed out with clamps. My ears are still burning from the owner finding that one... :oops: And I probably lost half my hearing because of the wood planer that was near by, even though I was smart enough to bring and use my own ear plugs (what’s OSHA? :no_speak:).
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The hack video sparked an idea, along with the Can-do design, for an outside 3rd hand clamp for doing my assembly.
But first I went digging in my clamps box for a couple of corner clamps I had
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211783)
And I tried them out:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211724)
Problem is they seem to be design to be used when first set on a table and then the wood set into them. This would work well for a picture frame. But I need something that can set on top of a an assembled piece with something already under it. I tried these on top and they are clumsy. And they are awkward and heavy. Then I found that, when set on a table and then a couple of pieces are set in them, the handle for tightening them is too larger to clear what the are resting on and makes the piece go askew.
So, back to Amazon for something that will work. I like the Can-do clamps, but they are an inside clamp and too large for my application. I found something I think will work and have ordered. More to come on that.
For the 3rd hand clamps, I started with 2 - 3/4” plywood squares, that are square; 2-3/4” a side.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211725)
Those along with the L-Clamps will be the 3rd hand clamp.
I add a piece of thin plywood to make a lip for the sides of one corner. The opposite corner has no lip so this can be used in a recessed application too. I am definitely getting better at glueing...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211726)
Holes drilled and L-Clamps in place. Note there are 2 sets of holes in each wood block. This is so either corner can be used with the clamps
Using the “lip” corner... The black lines from the holes are so I know which holes are for which side for clamping..
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211785)
The square is there to show it is reasonably square.
Recessed application...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211786)
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The "too much glue" syndrome is a pet peeve for me. It's the default way "more is better"!
FWIW I look at it like this, glue outside of the joint adds nothing except mess and sometimes work later to remove. Let's say one had 50% glue coverage on any given joint in MDF. At that, the joint strength likely exceeds the wood itself so what has been gained?
You are correct there is no benefit to glue outside of the joint. However, the edge of of MDF will absorb large amounts of glue so I tend to use more in that circumstance than when I am working with hardwood.
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You are correct there is no benefit to glue outside of the joint. However, the edge of of MDF will absorb large amounts of glue so I tend to use more in that circumstance than when I am working with hardwood.
Agreed. Eyeballs tell us much, but experience teaches the finer points. Cheapo MDF is certainly more like a sponge, higher density less so.
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I am also finding that the different glues absorb differently and therefore need to be spread differently. The Titebond II doesn’t seem to absorb as easily as the III. Haven’t had a chance to really compare the Titebond I to either of those. Now the Quick and Thick is a whole other story... That is more like caulk.
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You probably already know and are doing this but I’m the off chance you haven’t, make sure you have a wet rag while you clamp up your joints. Wipe away the excess that squeezes out due to clamping, and you’ll be left with very little cleanup/sanding to do once it’s cured.
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For the 3rd hand clamps, I started with 2 - 3/4” plywood squares, that are square; 2-3/4” a side.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211725)
Those along with the L-Clamps will be the 3rd hand clamp.
I add a piece of thin plywood to make a lip for the sides of one corner. The opposite corner has no lip so this can be used in a recessed application too.
I learned something new today!
I have a couple of those clamps. I use them to secure a sacrificial fence to my TS.
(https://cdn.instructables.com/FXA/JB3U/IJX57ZWU/FXAJB3UIJX57ZWU.RECT2100.jpg)
I'll have to pick up a few more and make some of your clamps. :D
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You probably already know and are doing this but I’m the off chance you haven’t, make sure you have a wet rag while you clamp up your joints. Wipe away the excess that squeezes out due to clamping, and you’ll be left with very little cleanup/sanding to do once it’s cured.
Wonderful post! :thumb:
Sometimes the simplest of ideas are the hardest to come up with. No, I had not been thinking along this line... :duh: My solution to this problem was to just smear excess glue with paper towels and/or fingers and hope for the best... :roll: This is what I have been doing with my practice pieces...
Thanks.
I did make a cup holder for the glue brushes. One problem solved (needing someplace to put the brush that doesn’t fall over and put glue in unwanted places).
Now two for the books. Oh, just thought of an idea to go with the wet rag... Get a cheap medium size SS bowl to put the wet rag in... And I know just where to get one or 2...
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I learned something new today!
I have a couple of those clamps. I use them to secure a sacrificial fence to my TS.
(https://cdn.instructables.com/FXA/JB3U/IJX57ZWU/FXAJB3UIJX57ZWU.RECT2100.jpg)
I'll have to pick up a few more and make some of your clamps. :D
Happy to pass along any ideas I have...
I saw those clamps on Amazon when I was looking for other clamps and that reminded that I had those pairs and that, along with the video hacks, gave me the idea for the 3rd hand clamps I made. Then, like you, I thought it would be a good idea to have a few more of these. It too me forever to find them again on Amazon. I couldn’t figure out the name for them. Turns out one name I found for them is “Fence Clamp”. I still didn’t come across the package deals I found the first time.
Your clamps for your fence look to be better made and stronger than the ones I have. If you find a source for them, please post a link to it. Never know if I will need more of them.
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Your clamps for your fence look to be better made and stronger than the ones I have. If you find a source for them, please post a link to it. Never know if I will need more of them.
Those are Powertec clamps, $17.07/pair (https://www.amazon.com/POWERTEC-71004-Universal-Fence-Clamp/dp/B00EWO580M/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Fence+Clamps&qid=1594832171&s=hi&sr=1-3) on Amazon. But I think next time I'll get the Milescraft clamps. They look similar but are just $11.64/pair (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CJHZ7QL/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1).
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Thanks for the links...
The Amazon Santa came today...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211880)
The corner clamps (I got 2, only 1 showing) were something I was most interested in getting. For the limited inside clamping space, these needed to be small. They are reasonable; about 3”. With my 3rd hand clamps, I should have about 1/4” of space between the 2. Have not yet checked to be sure but that should be it. The clamps themselves seem to be good and reasonably strong. They are a pot metal casting with a slip joint thread on the hand that seems to work well. Mostly I need them to hold a corner square while the glue sets. Regular clamps will be used to compress it all together.
And yes, that is a Sloth coffee cup. That is me these days... :lol:
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Dribs and drabs...
I started cutting “real” chips. The assembly plan is to glue the sides to the top and bottom pieces first. So I routed the top and bottom pieces as I figured these would be the easiest to do. I decided to do the routing in a 3 step process - the actual routing is 2 steps; first is about a 3/8” cut and the second is just under 11/16”. The 3rd is a trim cut on the table saw to get the 3/4” + just under 1/32”. I did the routing with an extended guide that was clamped in place on the table’s guide rail. This facilitated the use of 3/8-ish” plywood spacers for making the 2 router passes.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212168)
As a aide to making the routing passes, I marked the “outside” of the panel, as seen in the picture, with an outline of where the cuts were to be made. A nice thing about the design I am using is that none of the pieces will be “handed”. That is the top is the same as the bottom, as are the two sides, so I don’t have to worry about cutting a “left” or “right” pieces.
The extended guide for the guide rail on the router table is intended to aid in routing the long side, and front panels. It also works will for the shorter pieces. This is just a 1.5”x1.5” square aluminum tube. I cut slots in it for spring clamps and cut a notch for the router bit. The notch is about 1/2” high so the router bit, set for a 3/8” deep cut, would clear, and there would still be an uninterrupted surface to slide the panel on. The backside of the tube is cutout to match the vacuum hole in the table’s guide rail. If anyone is interested, I cut the aluminum using a Dremal grinder set on a slow speed, using a RotoZip down spiral drywall cutter. I used tube I had on hand, which is 1/8” thick. If I was buying a piece just for this, I would have gone with the 1/16” thick tube as that would be easier to cut.
By making the final cut on the table saw, I figured the width of the routing pass (the 3/4” direction) can be less than accurate and I can concentrate on having a good, clean depth of cut. While this may take a bit more time, it went quickly for the top and bottom pieces.
I did a dry fit with the actual side panels.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212171)
I am really liking the 3rd Hand clamps I made. The corner clamps I bought will be good for gluing a corner but my clamps are easier to use.
The routing and trimming seems to have come out well, complete with a slight overhang of the top/bottom pieces with respect to the side pieces. And the internal width at the clamps is 7” as per Danny’s plans.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212173)
Dry fitting - Always a good thing. It seems that no matter how much I check and measure, I miss something. In this case I found that one of my top/bottom panels was not cut square. I know I checked this, but missed it. Turns out, that of the 4 panels I cut, 2 were off. :duh: I lucked out, though. They were off on the high side so they could be trimmed square(er), which is a big PIA. :shake:
The other thing I found was that the side panels are really flexible and there is no way to get a side to side measurement at any place other than where the clamps are. That dimension will truly be set by the internal braces and the front panel (with the way I plan to do the assembly). The back panel will need to be custom fit, the way I see it now.
There will be more dry fitting as I get other pieces routed.
Just one other note...
With respect to the corner clamps I bought, the quick release button is on the wrong side and interferes with having 2 clamps close together. Something to watch out for in buying clamps... And I have to wonder if the people who design and build things actually ever uses them.... :nono: Why did they not put the buttons to the inside of the clamp angle? Ugh!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212174)
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I am having fun reading other people’s builds, in particular for build ideas. I think I have a few links in previous posts. Here is another one:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=168181.0
Thanks Sonicjoy :thumb:
A take away for me from this is the size for the grill... Good point on cutting the frame smaller...
I am a ways away from doing the grill - but on planning ahead, I like the idea of using magnets for the grills.
Can anyone suggest a size magnet that would be good to use and what is a good source for them?
I have not found any magnets on Amazon that look to be large enough. I know that the diameter could be varied to achieve different strengths. However, I plan for an almost full length grill (around 40” long*), so I expect I it would be better to use more small-ish ones than a few larger ones.
* why 40-ish inches long? Well, because of room placement, the ports will have to go in the front of the speaker and I want them covered along with the drivers. Heresy, I know. But, the room dictates that they be up against a wall... And I don’t see the ports working well (or worse) in the back of the speaker.
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Hi Jonsk2514, Glad you found my thread helpful.
Re magnets. The problem with magnets is that it can take some trial and error to get them to work the way you want. That's why I used traditional speaker grill clips on the NX Studio's. You might have to try a couple different sizes to get the desired holding power plus magnets don't always locate the way you want. Sometimes they tend to pull off to one side unless there is a recess of some kind that locates the grill. It can be done but can take some messing around to get right. The clips are very easy to install and work great and are pretty fool proof.
Good luck with your build.
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Thanks for the input. I saw your use of the pegs for that top grill and that made sense to me for that application.
I have seen both used and I think I have seen some solutions to the alignment for the magnets. I would think that a major issue with the magnets is how to attach the grill cloth and still have them work... In most of what I have read, people prefer to wrap the cloth around a frame and then staple it to the back of the frame. This would mean the magnets would have to be on a stand off or the grill cloth put into a recess or the magnets would have to be strong enough to work through the cloth... Is this a buzzing issue with the grill frame up against the speaker face? Am I talking myself out of using magnets???? :?
I need to look into this a bit more.
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More progress...
Much of my practice has paid off. I have completed the routing of the long front and side panels. The fronts are routed on all 4 edges and the sides are routed along one long edge only.
I set the router table up with 2 roller stands to support the 44” length of these pieces...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212402)
This worked really well; much better than I expected. I wear leather gloves which helps to feed the boards through the router, without having to have hand on the end. The other thing that worked well was the vacuum hookup on the table - no dust.
As I noted before, the routing took 2 passes. The first at a 3/8” cut and the second at just under a 3/4” cut. Then I would pass each panel through a 3rd time just to make sure all were clean cuts.
After I completed the routing, I ran the panels on the table saw to get just over 3/4” width for the 3/8” deep rabbit.
A flat-pack of top, bottom, front, and side panels:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212403)
The backs don’t require any routing at this time. They will need some later for the location of the connectors.
Next is sizing (re-sizing?) the internal braces. Right now they are slightly oversized compared to the front panel, which is not unexpected. After that is to cut the cutouts in the braces... this should be interesting as I have never cut circles with a router before... :o
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Cross over build reference:
https://youtu.be/rIxig_9i-Iw
Danny does a nice job with showing how to assemble a crossover.
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A set back... :(
A while back I noticed some oily spots on the MDF and passed it off as maybe being something that was there from the store... Recently, however, I found a big splotch on the outside of the front panel that wasn’t there when I routed it, so I knew it was something of my doing... And a quick search on my work table turned up an old oil spill on my work bench that pretty well blended in and I didn’t see it until I was actually looking for it. Ugh :shake:
I can’t believe how well the MDF sucked that stuff up. It is like a sponge. Of course, my concern is for later on when I go to put the finish on. I plan a painted finish, so staining isn’t an issue. I just need to make sure the finish/paint sticks.
So now comes the process of cleaning it out of the panels. Right now I have tried paint thinner and paper towels, which seems to have removed some of it. After I do that a few times, I plan to wipe it down with some alcohol. I would rather go this route than have to go get another sheet of MDF and cut new panels.
Any suggestions out there as to getting rid of this mess? Or am I on the right path with the paint thinner?
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If you intend to paint the baffles, I would use the classic BIN shellac base primer.
Which is what i used when prepping these early E. Geddes kits for professional paint with House of Kolor automotive paint. BIN is a great all around sealer for MDF to prevent MDF from soaking up humidity or moisture later (paint inside of box/enclosure too), and sands incredibly smooth.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212616)
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Bummer. First thing to determine is what the nature of the oil is. Most oil is petroleum based, so alcohol won't be a solvent for it, but paint thinner (mineral spirits) probably would be.
You could make a poultice of sorts with a tight wad of cloth or paper towel lightly dampened with solvent (paint thinner) and set on surface for a bit. The glue in MDF won't be affected in a short exposure, but off the cuff, I think I'd limit to perhaps an hour. Rubbing actually isn't very effective as it just tends to suspend the oil and move it around.
When it comes time to paint, a stain blocking primer or dewaxed shellac might be a good first coat as it will help to seal whatever residue remains and keep if from affecting subsequent topcoats. At least some prep will depend on what you intend to finish with. Solvent or oil base will be less affected than water base in my experience.
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Bummer! Good word for it.
I thought about using shellac as an undercoat. Thanks for the advice on the primer/sealer version. I have used plain shellac as a finish coat before. I am not sure if it is de-waxed though, I would just get the primer version.
It didn’t take me long to remember remember the oil spill from a long time ago. The smell is a dead give-away... 90w gear oil. The smell of that stuff is memorable.
Also good advice on making a poultice (I wonder how many people are familiar with that word... :lol:). I had already thought of just putting some “speedy dry” (basically clay cat litter) on it and let it sit. But soaking it with paint thinner first and then doing that might work. It seems that would draw it out better.
I did soak it with paint thinner and then blotted it. This worked to some extent. But I didn’t soak it for very long as I was afraid of the paint thinner drawing the oil further into the MDF.
So, I will continue on with this advice and will let you know how well I do.
Thanks for posting back with the suggestions...
BTW - I really like the teal colored speakers - nice job on them. :thumb:
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Listen to Peter :thumb:
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:bowdown:
:lol:
Already working on it...
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If you intend to paint the baffles, I would use the classic BIN shellac base primer.
Which is what i used when prepping these early E. Geddes kits for professional paint with House of Kolor automotive paint. BIN is a great all around sealer for MDF to prevent MDF from soaking up humidity or moisture later (paint inside of box/enclosure too), and sands incredibly smooth.
BIN primer is a good idea as well. BIN is just a white pigmented shellac.
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I was at my local hardware store earlier today after the suggestion was made and found the BIN shellac primer...
Thanks for the advice and endorsement. Even before this happened I was wondering about whether this should be primed on the outside, at least, before painting it. I guess that is a given now... :roll:
Right now the front panel has been wet down with mineral spirits and has several layers of paper towel and a scrap piece of MDF over that, and all of that is being compress under about 50# of weight. The speedy-dry didn’t do much from what I could tell. There didn’t seem to be enough surface area contact to draw the oil out. This stuff is more for a pool of a liquid than my current need.
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Definitely prime and sand MDF before your top coat. It will soak up a lot and be inconsistent otherwise.
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Does the BIN shellac primer sand the same or similarly to ordinary shellac. Or does the white pigment cause it to be gummy?
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The BIN will sand OK and is a good barrier coat. For best sanding, I've found Cover Stain, also made by Zinnser to powder when sanding and build a little more. This is for oil based stuff. I think the water base can be in spray cans too, but I'm not as fond of it. Cover Stain is best if left to dry overnight. BIN will be faster.
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Yeah, Cover Stain is good stuff. Most of Zinsser's stuff is good. They make my favorite varnish Quick Satin 15. I cringed when they were bought by Rustoleum.
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Just a quick update to say that I think I have solved the oil in the MDF issue... Baby powder... Actually, cornstarch, which is the main ingredient of baby powder these days.
I soaked the oily area down with paint thinner, let it sit for a minute or two (not long at all). Then I put a layer of baby powder over that. The cornstarch dries the MDF and appears to pull the oil out with the paint thinner. I had the MDF on top of some paper so I could scrape the power off the MDF and onto the paper. This was then easy to ball up and throw away, and I wasn’t clogging up the shop vac filter with the powder.
Success! :green:
I also made 2 more of my 3rd hand clamps, this time using the MilesCraft clamps. The hole size for these is 21/64 inch, as compared to the others which is 15/16 inch. The only thing about the MilesCraft clamps is that they are a bit heavier than the other 2 clamps I made, but nothing like the other corner clamps I bought. These should be good and really handy for dry fitup:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212833)
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I thought that I should clean out the oil from the MDF the best I could before proceeding any further with the build, hence part of my delay in posting. I think I have achieve responsibly good success. Here is a sample of what I have been dealing with.
Here is a side panel that had soaked up a lot of oil:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213124)
I wiped the oily spots with paint thinner, soaking the spots with several applications of the thinner. It doesn’t stay wet very long as the MDF is a pretty good sponge:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213125)
This is followed up with the application of a thick layer of cornstarch baby powder. Being baby powder isn’t so important as being cornstarch, which I believe helps to draw out the oil and thinner. Also, the container that the baby power comes in does really well at spreading the powder.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213126)
After about 24 hrs, I scrapped the cornstarch off with a wide blade putty knife, onto a waiting paper towel. This way the cornstarch is easily cleaned up without using a vacuum and clogging the filter. This is the result:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213127)
I took a second shot at cleaning that residual oil. This is what it looked like after this second application and 24hr wait:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213128)
The putty knife gets about 90% of the powder off. A light wipe down with a dry paper towel seems to do well at getting most of the remaining powder off. This should be good enough until I am sanding the cabinets and then cleaning that dust off.
To be honest, I am not sure how much the cornstarch helped over just wiping the oily spots with paint thinner. But the combination seems to have worked.
With this piece and several other piece that had oil on them now cleaned of the oil, I am now back to work with the build.
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One of the things I found to be helpful in this build is having a piece of straight of rectangular aluminum tube. Now any really straight piece of something would work for what I am doing, I just happen to have on hand the aluminum tube.
I have proceeded ahead with laying out the places on the side panels where the braces will go. I still plan to use quarter round molding for the rails to locate the braces. To facilitate the layout, I have secured the tube to the workbench and have butted the “control” edge of the side panel up against it. This makes for a nice edge to lay the carpenter square up against to mark off the locations for the braces. It is important that the same edge (the “control” edge) be used for both side panels so when they placed facing each other (they will be mirror images of each other), the location lines match and there is no mismatch in the angle of the lines. I chose the to locate off the front edge of the side panels. Nothing is perfectly square, no matter how well you make it, so using that same edge insures the lines are as close to being mirror images as possible...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213138)
You can see the straight edge and the carpenter’s square. The panel edge that is up against the straight edge is the one that will be butted up against the front panel.
In this picture the layout for the braces starts at the bottom and moves to the top of the picture. Because of the way Danny lays out his decisions, starting from the bottom of the cabinet, I had to subtract 3/8” from each of his dimensions, because the bottom end of each of the side panels sits in a rabbit in the top and bottom panels and that rabbit is 3/8” deep.
I did a couple of over checks. One was to mark the edge of each side panel where the braces would go. Then I laid the one panel on top of the other to make sure the marks lined up on the two panels. The other thing I did was to measure down from the top of each panel for the location of the speaker drivers to make sure those measurements lined up with the center of the braces, per Danny’s sketches.
Then I cut the quarter round molding for each of the braces; 4 for each brace. Then laid them out on the side panels to make sure of the cuts. The 15” long ones were cut to 14-7/8” to allow a 1/16” gap to the front and back panels. The 10” long pieces were cut only 1/16” gap to the back panel. Those don’t reach the front panels.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213139)
My plan is to install only one side of the brace rails prior to gluing together the top, bottom and 2 sides. Then I will install the braces and the other side rail. This should be clearer when I post pictures of the dry fit I plan to do once all of the braces are sized. I need to do a trim cut on each of the braces I cut as they are all slightly oversized to the interior of the cabinet.
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Hole cutting 101
First rule of hole cutting is Don’t Over Think It!
So what have I been doing? Over thinking it. And this is after having bought the really nice Jasper hole cutting jig.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211466)
It should have been a no-brainer; just mount it to the router base and go. But, no. What if this; what if that...
Finally a Nike commercial hit - just do it! - and I did. Ugh, that was way too easy. Just follow the directions.
I had purchased an 1/8” up spiral bit for the router. The down spiral one worked really well for cutting the panels from the sheet of MDF. I thought the up spiral cutter would work for the hole cutting. In using the down spiral cutter, I made the cuts in a single pass so the down cut bit made sense for dust collection. For the hole cutting I thought that I would do the cutting in multiple passes so the up spiral would be better for clearing the cuttings. These cutters have been da bomb for this... :D
I have the Dewalt cordless 20v router and really like it for this work (as in - no freakin’ cords to deal with :evil:). Plenty of power with the 1/8” bits. The thing I don’t like about Dewalt is they nickel and dime you for every add on. So I have had to purchased the plunge base and dust collector for it separately... The dust collector connects perfectly to the Dewalt hose for their cordless 20v shop vac... go figure.
Another thing I really like are the Nite Ize gear tie products (https://www.niteize.com/product/Gear-Tie-Mega.asp). These are super big twist ties that actually do something. I used one of these to suspend the vacuum hose from the basement ceiling and up above the router.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213179)
The only issue I had was getting the center peg for the hole cutting jig into the correct hole in the jig and then into the center hole of the piece I was cutting. This is all done blind and the pin want to drop out of the jig. I found that it worked best to place the pin into the proper jig hole for the size I want to cut, hold it in place with a finger, turn it over and the put the whole assembly over and into the centering hole in the piece to be cut.
BTW - the multiple cuts shown in the picture, included a mistake and several checks on the hole diameter I was getting with the 1/8” bit. The jig is sized for use with a 1/4” bit. In this case a 1/8” correction is needed to the printed hole size vs the cut hole size.
Otherwise, cutting holes with this jig is no harder that reading the instructions on the package... :duh:
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An issue with the way I am building these cabinets is the use of the quarter round for locating the braces. These take up volume inside the box and that will change the performance of the cabinet.
Now how much space could a little bit of 1/2” quarter round take up? More than I expected... over 70 cubic inches worth of space. Or about 2“ inches of the 7”x15” interior spaces. I could have made the cabinet taller by that amount, but I didn’t know what that would do to the speaker’s performance. Or I could have made the speaker depth greater. Ok, that might not have been too bad (about 0.25” larger). But, still, what would have been the acoustic performance change? I thought I would just make the holes larger in the braces. This keep all of the dimensional changes as close to each other as possible, which I figured would have the least amount of impact on the acoustic performance of the speakers. I also figured the quarter round would compensate for the slightly less stiff braces because of their larger holes.
What I calculated was the hole size in the braces needs to increase to be about 5-7/8” vs the 5-1/2” hole in Danny’s sketches. This makes for about a 1 for 1 switch in volume, or no net volume change.
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Sometimes you find something that you didn’t even know you were looking for it. Case in point:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213728)
I saw this sticky stuff and thought it would do great for the dry fit of the brace rails. I had previously marked out where each brace rail is to go to locate/support each of the internal braces. The Fun-Tak would give me a way to temporarily install the brace rails as part of a dry fitup. The product description says it may leave an oily mark but on a test piece I first tried it on, that took several days before it occurred. In this dry fit, there was no visible oil residual after the hour or so that it was on the pieces. It peeled off easily and any bits of residual were easy to see with their blue color. A dab with another piece of Fun-Tac easily took off any remaining bits.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213729)
My plan is to start at each end of the cabinet and work toward the center installing each of the braces That way I can use the brad nailer to facilitate the installation of each of the rails for the opposite side of the brace. The final set of brace rails will need to be held in place by some other means, as the space between any 2 braces is too small for the brad nailer.
Looking closely you will see that at the far end of the side the braces are installed with the flat facing the camera and at the close end they are facing away from the camera. This will facilitate the installation of the braces working from each end and towards the middle, which will allow the use of the brad nailer inside the cabinet.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213730)
I can get the brad nailer in at about 45 deg which will work for tacking the opposite side rail in place.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213731)
This is what it will look like with everything installed. This picture is looking down inside of the cabinet from the backside. The front side is face down on the work bench. This is opposite of how I plan to do this part of the assemble.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213732)
Note, I didn’t put in all of the brace rails; just enough are installed to get a feel for how this will work.
I still need to fit the back panel to the sides, top and bottom. Once that it done and I know the braces will still fit, I plan ito glue together the four corners of the cabinet (top to side to bottom to side to top) using the front panel as the assembly jig. Then glue the back side panel into place. This way I will be able to glue each of the braces into the sides and back all at one time and the two short braces will just rest on the back panel while the glue sets up. Leaving the front panel off will allow access to the interior for installing wiring, crossover and NoRez...
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Glad to see that you’re making progress, but it would be going together much easier and faster if you had just cut dados into the sides like everybody else does. You created a lot of extra work for yourself by using the quarter round strips instead.
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Cool to see them coming together! I'm looking forward to when you're able to fire them up and listen to them for the first time, hopefully soon!
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Glad to see that you’re making progress, but it would be going together much easier and faster if you had just cut dados into the sides like everybody else does. You created a lot of extra work for yourself by using the quarter round strips instead.
Thanks
Progress comes when time allows.
As for the quarter round, you and I will have our difference of opinion on that one. For me, I see the advantage in the assembly. Maybe not in “time”, but in ease. I failed miserably with the assembly of my practice box with only 2 braces being fitted into dado-like slots. I have also watched Peter assemble the XLS Encore box with only one or two braces and having to use a mallet to get the sides and braces together. Based on my practice box, and what I have seen the Pros do, I believe the level of difficulty is very high for me to try to assemble a cabinet with 7 braces that have to go, all at same time, into 7 slots in a side. Once the glue goes on the parts there is no turning back and this becomes a one-shot try. A high level of difficulty equates to high risk of failure. So, no matter how much time doing dado slots in the sides saves me, if I fail on the assembly then I loose big time and everything become scrap...
The quarter round will allow me to assemble one brace at at time into the cabinet. Simple and no fuss. And it has little risk of failure. I’ll take that over saving a few minutes otherwise.
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Thanks
Progress comes when time allows.
As for the quarter round, you and I will have our difference of opinion on that one. For me, I see the advantage in the assembly. Maybe not in “time”, but in ease. I failed miserably with the assembly of my practice box with only 2 braces being fitted into dado-like slots. I have also watched Peter assemble the XLS Encore box with only one or two braces and having to use a mallet to get the sides and braces together. Based on my practice box, and what I have seen the Pros do, I believe the level of difficulty is very high for me to try to assemble a cabinet with 7 braces that have to go, all at same time, into 7 slots in a side. Once the glue goes on the parts there is no turning back and this becomes a one-shot try. A high level of difficulty equates to high risk of failure. So, no matter how much time doing dado slots in the sides saves me, if I fail on the assembly then I loose big time and everything become scrap...
The quarter round will allow me to assemble one brace at at time into the cabinet. Simple and no fuss. And it has little risk of failure. I’ll take that over saving a few minutes otherwise.
The cool thing about woodworking is that there's lots of ways to go about building things that will work out just fine. Some people do simple glued butt joints, some angle cut butt joints, some use a domino machine, some use a table saw and cut a dado, etc. etc. etc. As long as what you're doing works for you and you're getting strong glue up, it will be fine. And it will be uniquely yours which is part of what makes DIY fun and rewarding. It seems like you enjoy the process and the challenge of solving the problem just as much as getting to the end result, nothing wrong with that.
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Cool to see them coming together! I'm looking forward to when you're able to fire them up and listen to them for the first time, hopefully soon!
Thanks... :thumb:
I, too, am looking forward to the day that happens.
Sorry for this taking so long. I see others getting these builds done more quickly. This is a “do it when I can” type of project, but I also wanted to document it. It will help me when I do another.
That said, when I did this last dry fit, I realized that it is coming together quickly and I need to get going with order the components for it... :duh:
More to come... :green:
The cool thing about woodworking is that there's lots of ways to go about building things that will work out just fine. Some people do simple glued butt joints, some angle cut butt joints, some use a domino machine, some use a table saw and cut a dado, etc. etc. etc. As long as what you're doing works for you and you're getting strong glue up, it will be fine. And it will be uniquely yours which is part of what makes DIY fun and rewarding. It seems like you enjoy the process and the challenge of solving the problem just as much as getting to the end result, nothing wrong with that.
A good way to put it...
It is the journey as much as the destination... For me, Yes... :D
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I found a thread on finishing cabinets with Duratex and other water based products on MDF. I’ll link it for future reference.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=171856.0
I have a black enamel paint I have used in the past that I plan to use and it comes as either water or oil based. In reality I prefer oil based paints and found that I can recycle the paint thinner for brush and roller clean up. I just let it sit in a can for a while. The solids settle out and I use the liquid later on for the initial several rinses of a brush or roller. Then I do a rinse or 2 with clean paint thinner.
Having to do the finish is something that I need to start thinking about along with ordering components. :roll:
Oh, and then there is the grill and how to attached... Later....
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If you go with more traditional paint, plan to use a good primer and sanding between coats. The end grains of MDF especially will absorb a lot of paint and if you want to avoid having an obvious difference in texture in your final coat, you're going to need to make sure you have a totally uniform surface that you start with. You're going to want to sand and then run your fingertips over the surface to find any variances in texture, and sand them down. Getting a nice finish is mostly about doing a great job preparing the surface.
I haven't worked with it but I would guess Duratex will definitely be more forgiving just based on the texture that it provides on its own.
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Absolutely, I will want to avoid having an uneven absorption. However, I am looking for texture, like the Duratex.
For the room these will be going into, I plan to have them “disappear”, except for their sound. The paint I plan to use is thick and I know that brushing it on leaves brush marks. I am hoping to be able to take advantage of that by rolling it on and have it leave the roller texture, kind-of like I have seen in Danny’s videos in using the Duratex. I will definitely experiment first. Also, I have looked into the availability of the shellac based primers, which have been recommended. My understand is that if I use that primer I will be able to use water based coatings/paints. That will make cleanup with this paint easy. I have a bit of experience with this paint, which is a big reason why I plan to use it. I have also found it to be extremely durable over time on wood. I hope that carries through to the MDF.
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Thanks
Progress comes when time allows.
As for the quarter round, you and I will have our difference of opinion on that one. For me, I see the advantage in the assembly. Maybe not in “time”, but in ease. I failed miserably with the assembly of my practice box with only 2 braces being fitted into dado-like slots. I have also watched Peter assemble the XLS Encore box with only one or two braces and having to use a mallet to get the sides and braces together. Based on my practice box, and what I have seen the Pros do, I believe the level of difficulty is very high for me to try to assemble a cabinet with 7 braces that have to go, all at same time, into 7 slots in a side. Once the glue goes on the parts there is no turning back and this becomes a one-shot try. A high level of difficulty equates to high risk of failure. So, no matter how much time doing dado slots in the sides saves me, if I fail on the assembly then I loose big time and everything become scrap...
The quarter round will allow me to assemble one brace at at time into the cabinet. Simple and no fuss. And it has little risk of failure. I’ll take that over saving a few minutes otherwise.
I agree that you should do what's comfortable for you. Just want to make sure that any others reading this realize that there is a more conventional way to do it.
In one of your recent pictures there are two corner clamps holding the parts together. Make sure when you do the final glue up that you don't rely on those clamps to square it up. Need to measure and match both diagonals for that purpose.
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I agree that you should do what's comfortable for you. Just want to make sure that any others reading this realize that there is a more conventional way to do it.
In one of your recent pictures there are two corner clamps holding the parts together. Make sure when you do the final glue up that you don't rely on those clamps to square it up. Need to measure and match both diagonals for that purpose.
Yes, absolutely, there are multiple ways to do all of this.
I am hopeful that when others read this they, will see these discussions of these various methods. I also hope that if people are looking for hints as how to do this or that, that they also view a few assembly videos, like the ones Peter has posted.
I will say, I understand what you are saying and I have considered how to make these cabinets “square”. In some respects these cabinets have become a bit of a custom assembly. Not the best idea, but working with the tools I have, I think it is the best I can do. I am marking piece when I do the dry fit, so when I do the glue fit those other pieces do fit in. I’ll let you know how that works when I complete that point and let everyone know the level of success I achieve.... :o
I have dry fit the pieces and they are fit to each other at this point. So, it should all be “self-squaring” to each other upon assembly. I will be using the front and back panels to “square” the sides to top and bottoms when I glue the sides, top and bottom together. The front and back panels will be wrapped so they don’t get “glued” to those pieces inadvertently. This way I can ensure those pieces will fit when it comes time to glue them in.
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I have dry fit the pieces and they are fit to each other at this point. So, it should all be “self-squaring” to each other upon assembly. I will be using the front and back panels to “square” the sides to top and bottoms when I glue the sides, top and bottom together. The front and back panels will be wrapped so they don’t get “glued” to those pieces inadvertently. This way I can ensure those pieces will fit when it comes time to glue them in.
That's not the way to do it. Of course, you usually don't do things the proven ways that everyone else does them anyway. You seem to always make up your own ways instead.
So here is the right way, regardless of any other ideas you may have. Don't initially use the front or back for squaring up. Leave them aside. Assuming that you have cut the two long side pieces to the exact same length, and also the top and bottom to their exact same lengths, then once you have applied the glue and clamps carefully measure the two corner to corner diagonals across the cabinet. Make minor tweaks with the clamps in place until the two diagonals are exactly equal. Your cabinet now is as square as it can possible be.
There is no other method superior to this one and it is the way all experienced woodworkers build cabinets. Using the front and back panels for alignment instead does not guarantee the cabinet will be square. There are too many uncontrolled variables affecting the size and shape of those panels and their fit into the rabbets. Afterwards if you have to trim the front and back panels to fit, then do so. But if they are fairly accurate to begin with and you've left a little clearance it shouldn't be necessary to trim them.
The best way, however, would have been to not cut the rabbets into the back edges of the front baffle until the box has been glued up and squared. You would then trace the inside opening of the box onto the back of the baffle and cut the rabbets for an exact fit. Finally you would trim the outside edges of the oversize baffle to match the sides of the box once its glued on.
You still may come out fairly square with the way you're doing it. At least square enough. One potential problem, however, is that the box corners may not come together tightly. You'll find out when you do it.
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Everything is cut using a carpenter’s square. There is no reason to be more precise than that on one piece vs another.
And has been said a number of times throughout this thread, there is more than one right way to build a cabinet.
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Everything is cut using a carpenter’s square. There is no reason to be more precise than that on one piece vs another.
And has been said a number of times throughout this thread, there is more than one right way to build a cabinet.
Indeed there are many ways. Finger wagging from observers has never been much of a motivator for me, for sure. More importantly, I think it's important to gather knowledge and skill along the way and derive some pleasure from the process.
I encourage you to press on to completion. Undoubtedly, you can take what you've learned and apply it to a future project. Somewhere I read that instead of squawking about the result of some endeavor, we can simply replace all the self-talk with this; "next time I'll _____". That leaves the door open to....well, more open doors! Constant improvement is a worthy goal.
I guess I'm waxing philosophical this morning...
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Press on, I am. I have fit the braces to the second cabinet. I had cut the braces a little large. I don’t remember exactly why; maybe just because... Turns out it has worked out well for me, as I could easily trim them to size and I now have a nice slip fit with dry fitup. I think this will work out well for the assembly that I plan to do. The only thing left to do is cut the holes in that set of braces and the two cabinets will be ready for gluing.
A mistake I made was to not pair up and mark the pieces as belonging to a specific cabinet as a lot of pieces became custom fitted. When I recognized this, it took me a long time to sort the pieces through dry fitting them all over again.
Lesson learned if doing this sort of thing one or two at a time and not have a way to make all the pieces a universal fit.
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Press on and making mistakes... :duh:
Sometimes the best plans fall apart. I cut the holes in each of the braces of the second cabinet. I made the straights cuts in the “C” braces and then did the quarter round edges on those and the “B” braces. The “A” braces are the short 10” long brace and have a hole and a half hole. However, I had set those aside and wait a day before finishing them. When I got back to those, I took a quick look at the plans, and saw the straight cuts instead of the half round and went ahead and made 2 really nice straight cuts to the hole.
You know that feeling that you get when when something doesn’t feel right? Well, as soon as I finished the straight cuts I got that feeling and realized something didn’t look right. It didn’t jump out at me as to what was wrong, but it didn’t take long for me to go and check the drawing again... Crap, that was the figure for the “C” brace, not the “A” brace.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214019)
Now where are my scrap pieces of MDF? What? No pieces large enough to replace a 7”x10” piece of MDF? Nope. :banghead:
I didn’t want to have to buy more MDF. Maybe I could get a quarter sheet? Or I could glue a couple of sheet together. Turns out, I did have 2 pieces of scraps that would work.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214020)
Tomorrow I’ll see if it works.
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Lol, don’t feel bad. I did something similar with my X-statiks. I ended up laminating some scrap pieces together as well and after some putty and sandpaper, you’d never know the back panels were edge laminated scrap pieces. Be glad your mistake is an interior piece!
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Good thing for glue and clamps... :lol:
And, yes, lucky this was an internal piece... :roll:
I have finished remaking that brace and all are done and sanded. One thing I found with the up spiral cutter I used to cut the opening in the braces is that its end leaves a bit of feathering if not cutting all of the way through the MDF. I cut the opening in 2 cuts. I use the adjustable stops on the plug base for the first cut and I see this feathering at bottom of that cut. The feathering is light and, maybe, 1/16” long, but it is there none the less. It is also just below the cut made by the quarter round bit that I used to round the corners of these openings, so no luck in that cleaning it off. Sanding did easily take that away and nicely blended everything together.
For sanding on these curved surfaces, I tried the foam sanding blocks that are on the market now. I used a medium grit, which worked well, but I had a few places where coarser grit would have been helpful.
I found a couple of these in my pile of miscellaneous tools:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214113)
I made 2 of these a while ago for something I was doing. These were made from the inexpensive clamps Harbor Freight sells. I cut off the fixed end of 2 clamps, removed the slide clamp part from one and put it on the other. It takes 4 clamps to make 2 of these.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214114)
I have been looking for an easy way to facilitate the use of the long clamps I will be using to clamp together the long length of the cabinet. After a while of pondering what to use and/or make for handing these long clamps, I realized the solution was right there.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214115)
These will work great for clamping the sides into the top and bottom panels and then the long clamps will rest on the the handles of these clamps, for then clamping the length of the cabinet. I have made a second pair of these to support a second pair of long clamps.
Another note... I have purchased a few of these HF clamps that the slide clamp part wouldn’t stay locked in place. The spring was flabby. This spring is just a wire loop in that slide piece and that spring just needs to be re-bent to apply more force to the locking plates. It pops out easily using a couple of picks.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214116)
This is the way that spring in one of my clamps looked like when I pulled it out. That one leg of the spring needed to be bent further out to match the other leg.
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Good thing for glue and clamps... :lol:
And, yes, lucky this was an internal piece... :roll:
I have finished remaking that brace and all are done and sanded. One thing I found with the up spiral cutter I used to cut the opening in the braces is that its end leaves a bit of feathering if not cutting all of the way through the MDF. I cut the opening in 2 cuts. I use the adjustable stops on the plug base for the first cut and I see this feathering at bottom of that cut. The feathering is light and, maybe, 1/16” long, but it is there none the less. It is also just below the cut made by the quarter round bit that I used to round the corners of these openings, so no luck in that cleaning it off. Sanding did easily take that away and nicely blended everything together.
This is the way that spring in one of my clamps looked like when I pulled it out. That one leg of the spring needed to be bent further out to match the other leg.
Could you clarify "feathering". If I'm imagining this right, it sounds like a misalignment or maybe cutter run-out. Perhaps plunge mechanism or pivot pin deflection.
The clamp problem doesn't surprise me. Much of Harbor Freight stuff is knocked off from existing designs but misses the mark in some small but critical details. In some cases it's of no concern, others it's apparent why it cost less when one goes to use the product.
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Could you clarify "feathering". If I'm imagining this right, it sounds like a misalignment or maybe cutter run-out. Perhaps plunge mechanism or pivot pin deflection.
The clamp problem doesn't surprise me. Much of Harbor Freight stuff is knocked off from existing designs but misses the mark in some small but critical details. In some cases it's of no concern, others it's apparent why it cost less when one goes to use the product.
I am definitely careful about buying Hf stuff. Some of their stuff is pretty good. Other is in between or low in usefulness. The clamps are OK if not over taxed, which is not to hard to do... :roll:
I am using a 1/8” diameter up spiral cutter
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214159)
The coloring of the cutter is a coating or treatment Amana puts on; it is not from being overheated...
I do the hole cut in 2 steps just to be easier on the router and cutter. It can be made in one step; I just prefer not to. I cut to just under 3/4”, total, hence the ragged edge on the cut out piece which is remove by it being tapped out by hand. That way I don’t have to fixture the cut out piece to keep it from moving while cutting.
The first cut is at about 1/2” depth which is to one stop up on the router plunge base. The second cut is to the full planned depth. You can see in the picture of the brace piece the line between the one cut and the second. On a sample of the cut-out piece the line is hardly visible.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214158)
Note the cutout piece is upside down relative to the brace piece that is under it.
The feathering is at the intersection between the 2 cuts. I believe that feathering is caused by the sharp end of the cutter being a bit ragged on the MDF I have. I couldn’t get a good closeup of the end of the cutter, but it is shaped with 2 points and the 2 cutting edges are angled inward and downward, towards the grip end, so it makes a “V” at the end of the cutter.
As for the line. There is a slight step inward (maybe 1/64”, but have not tried to measure it) at the top of the second cut. I am guessing... The cutter is flexing/bending slightly outward at its end, due to the rotation and cutting direction. I am cutting the hole in the clockwise direction. The cutter is spinning in the clockwise direction. With this, there is a net force radially outward on the cutter. Hence my thought the cutter is flexing outward. This probably would not be seen with a 1/4” dia cutter.
Guessing again, there is no line (or little line) on the piece that is cut out because the second pass of the cutter is far enough down that there is minimal flex at the location of the line and it is “cleaned” up in the process.
I should point out that I cut all of the panels (baffles) out of the full sheet of MDF using the same brand, 1/8” cutter, that was a down cut spiral. I believe I got a good perpendicular cut. I did all of those as a single, full thickness cut. Maybe there is something is the way the end of the cutter is grabbing the MDF on a partial thickness cut that is causing it to go off line a little. This, again, is a guess.
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Oh, on the “moving forward front” :drums:
I have purchased the driver and crossover kit from Danny... :banana piano:
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I had similar lines in my circles due to making several passes to get through the full depth. Not sure if it’s an avoidable artifact of cutting the circles in MDF in more than one pass but a bit of sanding should fix it right up.
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Do you remember what you used for a cutter when you made your circle cuts?
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I had similar lines in my circles due to making several passes to get through the full depth. Not sure if it’s an avoidable artifact of cutting the circles in MDF in more than one pass but a bit of sanding should fix it right up.
This ^^^
Clearances, deflection, runout in several mechanisms at work here will almost always produce results like this. The nature of the beast, I guess. Best way to avoid is to cut in one pass, but it's purely a visual thing and has no effect on speaker performance.
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That is along the lines of what I was thinking.
It has, however, increased my sanding effort, though... :P
Although, surely not overly important on these pieces.
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I am going to back track a bit. I had planned to post this about cutting the holes in the braces. Now that we have been talking about it, I am reminded that I missed this.
In reading the instructions for the Jasper hole cutting template, it said to use double stick tape on the back side to hold things in place. This seemed to be a lot of effort and, potentially, a mess to clean up. Also, I had those 2 - 10” braces that had a half circle cut from them.
For the 10” braces, I decided to clamp the two together and make the half circle cuts in one cut as a full circle cut in both pieces.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214187)
I cut just a “hair” less than the full thickness of the MDF:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214183)
The cutter just breaks through the underside of the piece. In doing it this way, the cut-out piece stays in place without the need for the double sided tape. The cut-out pieces are then just popped out by had. Any ragged edge is cleaned up when the edge rounding is performed.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214184)
For a holding fixture, I used 2 slide clamps, clamped to a sheet of plywood, to form sides that retained the piece I was cutting and later, performing the edge rounding on. They also, form a nice stop that the ends of the piece being held. The plywood underneath allows for the cutter to break through and not be damaged and gives something to clamp to. This was just a piece of scrap I had. A word of caution... the piece being held will slide a bit and the ends will be up against metal. Take care to not run the router bit into the metal when routing towards the end of the piece. I could have done better at protecting the ends, but....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214186)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214185)
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So is this design a bass reflex speaker? It appears to be. Is the standard design for the X-MTM a bass reflex design, or is it normally a transmission line, like the AV-3?
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So is this design a bass reflex speaker? It appears to be. Is the standard design for the X-MTM a bass reflex design, or is it normally a transmission line, like the AV-3?
This is a floor standing, ported speaker with 2 ports low in the back. The cabinet for standard design X-MTM is the same as this, so it would be ported also. The Encore version uses upgraded driver and crossover parts.
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Wait, the standard X-MTM is a floorstanding design, right? How do they differ from yours?
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The AV-3s use a pair of the smaller M-130 and GR3T drivers, & have a smaller front baffle/cabinet. I believe it is also a 4ohm speaker.
The X-SLS & X-MTM Encores use a similar overall design, but with the larger M-165 & Peerless tweeters, and is also an 8ohm speaker.
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The AV-3s use a pair of the smaller M-130 and GR3T drivers, & have a smaller front baffle/cabinet. I believe it is also a 4ohm speaker.
The X-SLS & X-MTM Encores use a similar overall design, but with the larger M-165 & Peerless tweeters, and is also an 8ohm speaker.
My question was more about the cabinet. The AV-3 is a transmission line design, but if the standard X-MTM floorstander is a like the OP’s, then it’s bass reflex....I believe. Is that correct?
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My question was more about the cabinet. The AV-3 is a transmission line design, but if the standard X-MTM floorstander is a like the OP’s, then it’s bass reflex....I believe. Is that correct?
The X-MTM and the X-MTM Encore that I am building are the same cabinet. They both have 2 ports. Sorry, I am not that up on the terms, so I am not sure if that is what you are calling “bass reflex”. However, they are different from the AV-3 in that respect.
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The X-MTM and the X-MTM Encore that I am building are the same cabinet. They both have 2 ports. Sorry, I am not that up on the terms, so I am not sure if that is what you are calling “bass reflex”. However, they are different from the AV-3 in that respect.
Based on Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_reflex), the X-MTM and the X-MTM Encore are classified as a “bass reflex” speaker.
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jonsk2514,Transmission line speakers have an exit point like a port, but the sound that comes out the back of the woofer(s) is directed through a winding path until it exits the cabinet. I’m not learned enough to know the details, other than true transmission line speakers tend to be more responsive in the lower octaves than a simple port(ie bass reflex), and they’re more complicated cabinet designs.
I’m pretty sure I read that the AV-3 is a TL design. It sounds like you answered my question though.
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jonsk2514,Transmission line speakers have an exit point like a port, but the sound that comes out the back of the woofer(s) is directed through a winding path until it exits the cabinet. I’m not learned enough to know the details, other than true transmission line speakers tend to be more responsive in the lower octaves than a simple port(ie bass reflex), and they’re more complicated cabinet designs.
I’m pretty sure I read that the AV-3 is a TL design. It sounds like you answered my question though.
Yes, that is a good description of the the AV-3. The drawings for the AV-3 (http://gr-research.com/pdf/av3box.pdf) show a zigzag sound path from the drivers, up in the top, to an opening low in the cabinet and in the back. The opening is just a rectangle cutout into the back panel.
All Danny’s designs appear to be a bit complicated given all of the internal bracing he includes. The X-MTMs has 7 internal braces, which is the same as the AV-3s. I would think the level of complication in building one vs the other is about the same.
In many of Danny’s upgrade videos, he talks about the lack of internal bracing in the commercial speakers. I would think a commercial version of the X-MTM would not have the bracing that this one has, as that bracing is not looked at as being needed for sound reproduction, which is the function of the port. Thus, without that bracing, what you say would be true about the ported speaker, it would be less complicated to build.
Are you looking to build a set of either the X-MTM or the AV-3s? I would think the build effort is about the same. The AV-3 is a bit smaller, if that makes a difference. As for sound quality, I only know what I have read in this forum and gotten from video reviews. That is, all of Danny’s designs are given high marks. I would expect whichever of Danny’s designs you choose, you will be happy.
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Are you looking to build a set of either the X-MTM or the AV-3s? I would think the build effort is about the same. The AV-3 is a bit smaller, if that makes a difference. As for sound quality, I only know what I have read in this forum and gotten from video reviews. That is, all of Danny’s designs are given high marks. I would expect whichever of Danny’s designs you choose, you will be happy.
I am looking to build a set of Danny’s designs, but I’m looking for a custom solution for my own setup(perhaps unnecessarily). I have cabinetry along the front of my room, including a waist-high wide counter that the LCRs sit on. Based on physical layout, the X-CS speakers would work best (the standmount version of the X-MTM). Encore versions, of course.
However, I recently discovered that my front speakers sound a lot better crossed over at 50hz instead of 80hz. I believe the X-CS is designed for the standard 80hz HT crossover point, because Danny mentioned their -3db point is around 60hz. Anybody correct me if I’m misunderstanding rolloff curves here.
For this reason, I’m thinking of buying the X-MTM and building it upside down. This is an unconventional solution, but it would keep the drivers at the proper elevation, and also give me the lower extension to cross over to the sub at 50hz. I may have to keep the center channel as an X-CS, unless I discover that an X-MTM in can be built in such a way so as to keep the drivers in the center and the ports at the outside back of the enclosure without doing something weird to the sound.
Sorry to hijack your post; I’m really eager to read how yours turn out!
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Do you remember what you used for a cutter when you made your circle cuts?
Either a 3 or 4 flute up spiral but, can’t recall which one. It’s a good quality bit and router, so I just assumed it was a part of the process as trying to go through the full .75” was causing the router to strain more than I liked.
FWIW nobody will know that line is there other than you, it’s behind the speaker! 8)
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Sorry to hijack your post; I’m really eager to read how yours turn out!
Not to worry... I asked for it... :D
I am looking to build a set of Danny’s designs, but I’m looking for a custom solution for my own setup(perhaps unnecessarily). I have cabinetry along the front of my room, including a waist-high wide counter that the LCRs sit on. Based on physical layout, the X-CS speakers would work best (the standmount version of the X-MTM). Encore versions, of course.
However, I recently discovered that my front speakers sound a lot better crossed over at 50hz instead of 80hz. I believe the X-CS is designed for the standard 80hz HT crossover point, because Danny mentioned their -3db point is around 60hz. Anybody correct me if I’m misunderstanding rolloff curves here.
For this reason, I’m thinking of buying the X-MTM and building it upside down. This is an unconventional solution, but it would keep the drivers at the proper elevation, and also give me the lower extension to cross over to the sub at 50hz. I may have to keep the center channel as an X-CS, unless I discover that an X-MTM in can be built in such a way so as to keep the drivers in the center and the ports at the outside back of the enclosure without doing something weird to the sound.
Interesting dilemma. I know that Danny has speaker designs that are not posted on his web page. Maybe pose the question to him in an email. I think, simply put, you are looking for a speaker about the size of the X-CS, but will drive down to 50hz, before the 3 dB roll off starts (or maybe just after it starts). Maybe Danny can point you to a design that will do that. Hopefully I summed that up correctly.
If someone else following this thread has a suggestion, I would not object to it being posted here.
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The -3db of the sealed box X-CS Encore is typically in the 60 to 70Hz range in room.
So the -6db down point (your crossover point) is about 10Hz lower.
So they will likely work just fine as is.
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I know, I know... Got to get going on this project...
I have not been doing nothing ... I ordered the components from Danny and received them the other day... :dance:
I got the upgrade with Sonicaps, Mills Resistors, 4 sheets of No Rez. While it may not seem like it, I am excited to hear what this set of speakers sound like.
I have been on another important project involving wood working and have put sone of my new skills to work. Part of it has been gluing up pieces and I have used that to practice for gluing up the cabinets. I know Peter really likes the Titebond I (the original), but I want to see what the Titebond III and the Quick and Thick would be good for.
My project has needs to be moisture resistant, which made it a good candidate for the Titebond III.
The III says it is a slow set and it also says that the pieces need to be clamped together for 30 min minimum. So a longer work time than the II or Quick and Thick. I found that to be true. I was able to reposition a piece after it moved while clamping. It is moderately thick, but was still thin enough to spread nicely with the rubber glue brushes I have. It is also thin enough to run when the piece is vertical, but it is a moderate “run” speed which seems like it would be a good candidate for using where glued surfaces will be vertical during assembly. I didn’t compare it directly to the Titebond Original, so I can’t say for sure which would be better and for where. Still, I think this glue is a good candidate for a lot of uses.
The rubber glue brushes work nicely to get a smooth/uniform layer of glue on the piece and it is easy to get the thickness correct for not having too much.
The Quick and Thick is just that and, as such, is not easy to “work” with. And it sets up fast. I had an oversized slot that I was fitting board into and thought that this glue would be a good candidate for this application. Ugh... This stuff does not spread easily with a brush. Then, it is “quick” to setup. I was off just slightly in fitting the board to the slot and, with just being hand-pressed together, I had to use a heavy rubber mallet to move the piece 1/16”. Figure minutes (seconds?) before setup. I see the use of this glue to be very limited. Where on the speaker cabinet? It seems that this glue would useful where precision is not important, a bead or 2 of glue will do and a hand press and hold would be sufficient. I plan to use this glue for installing the internal braces and the quarter round rails, which should only need to be hand pressed into place. The other place this glue might be good is for installing the diagonal braces that some of Danny’s cabinet designs use. Maybe use a brad nailer to hold the diagonal brace in place while the glue cures.
A note about the Titebond II. I used this glue for installing the first set of quarter round rails. I wanted something that was reasonably thick but would be spreadable and would setup quickly. This glue worked for that purpose. It is easy to brush and was just thick enough to not run when the quarter round pieces were turned over. Then, when hand held in place for a minute or two, it was set enough such that the quarter round didn’t tend to move when using the brad nailer at a slight diagonal. Not sure I would use this glue for much else, especially if repositioning might be required and there is a bit of assembly time required.
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Wow, I hate to say it, but reading this thread is confirmation that I definitely made the right decision in not trying to DIY my next pair of speakers. I can solder components to PCBs all day, wire up a power supply without too much smoke, and even build up a crossover without a PCB without too much trouble. And, with the help of my drill press, a file, and some cursing I can eventually get through the case work.
But, as I'm seeing in this thread, speakers are a whole different animal from electronics. All the woodworking skills and knowledge are way above my head, not to mention that I don't actually own any woodworking tools. :|
My brother-in-law is quite the woodworker though, and has a well equipped wood shop in his garage. Maybe one day if this pandemic ever ends I can get him to help me with the woodworking part. Not sure we'd know where to start though, as neither of us have built speaker cabinets before, and there is clearly way more to it than the cabinet plans on the GR site have led me to believe.
Kudos to those of you with the tools and the skills though. It is interesting to read and see pictures about it. :popcorn:
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Wow, I hate to say it, but reading this thread is confirmation that I definitely made the right decision in not trying to DIY my next pair of speakers. I can solder components to PCBs all day, wire up a power supply without too much smoke, and even build up a crossover without a PCB without too much trouble. And, with the help of my drill press, a file, and some cursing I can eventually get through the case work.
But, as I'm seeing in this thread, speakers are a whole different animal from electronics. All the woodworking skills and knowledge are way above my head, not to mention that I don't actually own any woodworking tools. :|
My brother-in-law is quite the woodworker though, and has a well equipped wood shop in his garage. Maybe one day if this pandemic ever ends I can get him to help me with the woodworking part. Not sure we'd know where to start though, as neither of us have built speaker cabinets before, and there is clearly way more to it than the cabinet plans on the GR site have led me to believe.
Kudos to those of you with the tools and the skills though. It is interesting to read and see pictures about it. :popcorn:
Please don't be discouraged from building your own cabinets based on this thread. I have been very critical of jonsk2514 from the beginning. While he acknowledges being an inexperienced woodworker, he nevertheless posts lots of detail about how he is building these cabinets with the expectation that it will help other people. I think the reality is just the opposite.
He does things in very unconventional ways and doesn't seem to interested in how experienced woodworkers would go about doing those same things, easier, faster and more accurately. As a result he appears to be struggling through what is actually a rather straight forward build.
So you confirm my fear from the beginning that rather than help other inexperienced woodworkers exactly the opposite would occur. But if your brother-in-law is experienced with even a minimally equipped shop building speaker cabinets is no big deal. It's really quite easy if you know what you are doing and follow conventional methods rather than trying to invent new ones.
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Wow, I hate to say it, but reading this thread is confirmation that I definitely made the right decision in not trying to DIY my next pair of speakers. I can solder components to PCBs all day, wire up a power supply without too much smoke, and even build up a crossover without a PCB without too much trouble. And, with the help of my drill press, a file, and some cursing I can eventually get through the case work.
But, as I'm seeing in this thread, speakers are a whole different animal from electronics. All the woodworking skills and knowledge are way above my head, not to mention that I don't actually own any woodworking tools. :|
My brother-in-law is quite the woodworker though, and has a well equipped wood shop in his garage. Maybe one day if this pandemic ever ends I can get him to help me with the woodworking part. Not sure we'd know where to start though, as neither of us have built speaker cabinets before, and there is clearly way more to it than the cabinet plans on the GR site have led me to believe.
Kudos to those of you with the tools and the skills though. It is interesting to read and see pictures about it. :popcorn:
The cabinet plans for all of Danny's speakers are pretty easy to follow. Your brother-in-law will have more than enough knowledge and skill to help you with the woodworking. Learning something new and doing something yo didn't think you could is a lot of fun. Give it a try :thumb:
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Wow, I hate to say it, but reading this thread is confirmation that I definitely made the right decision in not trying to DIY my next pair of speakers. I can solder components to PCBs all day, wire up a power supply without too much smoke, and even build up a crossover without a PCB without too much trouble. And, with the help of my drill press, a file, and some cursing I can eventually get through the case work.
But, as I'm seeing in this thread, speakers are a whole different animal from electronics. All the woodworking skills and knowledge are way above my head, not to mention that I don't actually own any woodworking tools. :|
My brother-in-law is quite the woodworker though, and has a well equipped wood shop in his garage. Maybe one day if this pandemic ever ends I can get him to help me with the woodworking part. Not sure we'd know where to start though, as neither of us have built speaker cabinets before, and there is clearly way more to it than the cabinet plans on the GR site have led me to believe.
Kudos to those of you with the tools and the skills though. It is interesting to read and see pictures about it. :popcorn:
Great to hear that you read through this thread. And there are options other than a from scratch builds that may be of interest to you...
My choice of speaker builds was not one of the easier ones, and I guess you see that from what I have written. This has been a learning process for me and I have had a lot of helpful input from others. What I have documented here has been how I have gotten from point A to point B, as a novice doing this. Yes, I have cut wood before and fitted pieces together, but nothing at the level of a professional. Hence the idea of writing this thread.
I also got a chuckle in the reading that you have no issues with doing the soldering and build circuits, as that is the area that I have read that some people dread most when looking at building a speaker... “I don’t know how to do this”... So hats off to you :bowdown:
There are much easier builds than this one...
My guess is that you have the talent to tackle one of these builds, but, maybe, just on a less complex scale. I have a suggestion... That is look into buying a “flat pack”, which is pre-cut and routed cabinet that you just need to assemble; glue together. Here is a video done by one of the followers of the blog who, I believe, makes and sells these flat packs. There should be a link in the video description for flat pack info.
https://youtu.be/5n3ZYGnEjgE
He also has other videos posted that may be of interest. And there maybe others out there.
There is also this thread: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164355.0
If you decide to tackle one of these, feel free to post back here and let me know. I would be interested to hear...
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Yes, if I were to go the DIY route, my first choice would be to get a flat pack for either an X-MTM Encore, A/V-3, or even an N3 if I can get the tweeters with the deep back cups.
But I've asked around here on this forum and can't find anyone who sells flat packs for any of these speakers. If someone knows of a reputable producer of flatpacks who is experienced in packing & shipping them cross-country, let me know.
But I guess cutting the cabinets isn't as difficult as I've gathered from reading this thread. Maybe I'll forward the cabinet plans to my BIL and see what he thinks.
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Yes, if I were to go the DIY route, my first choice would be to get a flat pack for either an X-MTM Encore, A/V-3, or even an N3 if I can get the tweeters with the deep back cups.
But I've asked around here on this forum and can't find anyone who sells flat packs for any of these speakers. If someone knows of a reputable producer of flatpacks who is experienced in packing & shipping them cross-country, let me know.
But I guess cutting the cabinets isn't as difficult as I've gathered from reading this thread. Maybe I'll forward the cabinet plans to my BIL and see what he thinks.
If your BIL has the woodworking experience and equipment that you described, my guess is that he will see this as a relatively easy, and perhaps fun, project.
Please don't be discouraged by the posts from jonsk2514. He is by self admission not very experienced and it shows in the somewhat difficult and unconventional approaches he has taken.
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Yes, if I were to go the DIY route, my first choice would be to get a flat pack for either an X-MTM Encore, A/V-3, or even an N3 if I can get the tweeters with the deep back cups.
But I've asked around here on this forum and can't find anyone who sells flat packs for any of these speakers. If someone knows of a reputable producer of flatpacks who is experienced in packing & shipping them cross-country, let me know.
But I guess cutting the cabinets isn't as difficult as I've gathered from reading this thread. Maybe I'll forward the cabinet plans to my BIL and see what he thinks.
Glad to hear that you are looking at moving ahead with at least having someone look at the plans. Sorry, I don’t know of anyone doing flat packs of the larger speakers. I would be interested in hearing in what direction you go and how you make out.
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Glad to hear that you are looking at moving ahead with at least having someone look at the plans. Sorry, I don’t know of anyone doing flat packs of the larger speakers. I would be interested in hearing in what direction you go and how you make out.
I'd go poke Killian Smith, he's offering to do flatpacks of the X-LS and X-SC and know others have asked him about doing an X-Statik kit, so I'm sure it possible that the more interest there is the more opportunity there is for him to produce more options going forward. :thumb:
You can find his thread here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=171085.0
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Please don't be discouraged from building your own cabinets based on this thread. I have been very critical of jonsk2514 from the beginning. While he acknowledges being an inexperienced woodworker, he nevertheless posts lots of detail about how he is building these cabinets with the expectation that it will help other people. I think the reality is just the opposite.
He does things in very unconventional ways and doesn't seem to interested in how experienced woodworkers would go about doing those same things, easier, faster and more accurately. As a result he appears to be struggling through what is actually a rather straight forward build.
So you confirm my fear from the beginning that rather than help other inexperienced woodworkers exactly the opposite would occur. But if your brother-in-law is experienced with even a minimally equipped shop building speaker cabinets is no big deal. It's really quite easy if you know what you are doing and follow conventional methods rather than trying to invent new ones.
diyman - I would suggest that, before you slam someone in their own thread, you get your facts right and then, if you make a comment, make sure it accurate reflects reality, which this comment of yours does not. Also, let me remind you this is amateur build thread, not an amateur build thread with a running critique as to how a professional would do the job. You can let the reader decided whether this thread is helpful or not.
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diyman - I would suggest that, before you slam someone in their own thread, you get your facts right and then, if you make a comment, make sure it accurate reflects reality, which this comment of yours does not. Also, let me remind you this is amateur build thread, not an amateur build thread with a running critique as to how a professional would do the job. You can let the reader decided whether this thread is helpful or not.
Exactly which facts don’t I have right?
It seems to me that the fact is your rather unconventional, self invented, and difficult ways of doing things for which there are much easier well established conventional methods is exactly the problem.
A problem to the extent that although you claim this thread is to help other amateurs you have instead scared them off.
And my concern about that potentially happening is exactly why I have posted some criticisms of your methods in the past.
.
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Exactly which facts don’t I have right?
It seems to me that the fact is your rather unconventional, self invented, and difficult ways of doing things for which there are much easier well established conventional methods is exactly the problem.
A problem to the extent that although you claim this thread is to help other amateurs you have instead scared them off.
And my concern about that potentially happening is exactly why I have posted some criticisms of your methods in the past.
SC
Just to take a little heat out fellas, I think as amateurs we can all use some positive criticisms. So diyman can you suggest a link to build thread that would be a good start for newbies to cut their teeth on and not be overwhelmed.
I just completed an Xls kit and while it seemed a mountain to climb on the wood working side I managed with the help of a friend and some of my own know how. :) A brother in law with a good wood shop always helps though. :)
Take care guys.
SC
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Gluing has started in earnest! :dance:
And before I say anything more - A big thanks to Peter for the discussion about the glues. The Titebond Original is the best for this. The end “grain” of the MDF suck up moisture like crazy and I could see that the quicker drying glues being really difficult to work with for this part of the project. The Original gave me the time I needed to spread the glue and to get things into place, without rushing.
As I noted, I am gluing the cabinet in steps; the first being the top and bottom panels to the sides. To ensure the fit up to the the front panel, I used the front panel as the “form” for gluing the sides, top and bottom. I loosely wrapped the ends of the front panel with binding film and used an extra piece of wood to ensure it was loose enough to form around the rabbit cut. I also made sure the film was not pinched between panels. I did this after the panels were dry fit by lifting the panels at the end to be glued, as unit, and away from the front panel and the film. Then set it all back in place. There are 2 layers of film and the material is stretchy enough to form nicely around the rabbit without taking up space.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215068)
In the dry fit up I traced the bottom and top panel outline onto the side panels so I would know how far to spread the glue on the side panels.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215076)
This is the side panel with glue on the ends and on the interior where it meets with the bottom/top panel.
I did the same tracing of the outline of the side panels onto the top/bottom panels where the rabbit cut is. The top/bottom panels also had glue applied to the surfaces that will meet up with the side panels. While this seems like a lot of glue, a lot gets sucked up by the MDF while getting the glue applied every it is needed.
I only glued one end at a time. The other end was dry clamped to hold things together. As noted prior, I modified clamps to act as rests for the long clamps. These are used on the dry end so they are ready for clamping the glued ends.
With the side panels splayed outward a little, the end panel with glue on it slid easily into place. I then put on the small clamps, lightly tightened. Then came the long end clamps.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215072)
A mistake I made at this point was to not make sure the end panel was fully aligned with the side panels. As a result one corner of the end panel was slightly higher than the corresponding corner of the side panel. The pieces are off only slightly, but it could have been easily corrected if I had remembered to check it before fully tightening the clamps. I had seen this in the dry fitups and just forgot to check. Once the clamps where tightened, it was game over for realigning things.
I also didn’t like the amount I needed to tighten the clamps and concluded I needed another level of clamps. Here I am gluing the other end of the cabinet with 3 sets of clamps.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215073)
Is there such a thing as too many clamps... :lol:
It seems that the MDF is flexible enough that it works well to have the clamps only 6 to 8 inches apart. Not sure if others found this, but for me it took a lot less tightening of the clamps to get the glued pieces in place.
The binding film worked well and the front was easily removed once the glue had set over night.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215078)
And this is the end showing where the glue drizzled down on the binding film.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215079)
I did try to clean up the wet glue, but I was unable to clean if off adequately. On the outside, the clamps are in the way and on the inside it doesn’t matter. Where it shows up in the rabbited area, the dried glue is easily removed with a chisel.
Another thing I found was a slight step in the rabbited area. It is barely visible at the end of the arrow.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215081)
This occurred because the saw height was slightly low when I did the trim cut. I had first routed the panel and then did a trim cut on the table saw. I didn’t realize when I first noticed it, way back when, that it would interfere with assembly. It did. Easy to clean up with the chisel...
I am a big fan of these silicon rubber gluing brushes. This was the result of not cleaning the brush and cup while the glue was still wet, and leaving it to setup over night.. :duh:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215070)
They cleaned up easily, anyway... :P
As it is, they work really well for me for spreading the glue.
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No turning back now!
Glad to see these are coming together for you.
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No turning back now!
Glad to see these are coming together for you.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I think the last possibility of turning back occurred when I bought that second sheet of MDF... At times, though, I wondered if this was the right build or if I would hit a brick wall with what I could do.
I am surprised that, after all of this time, it is has all of a sudden taken a big leap towards finishing. There is more done than I have posted (which I will post) and I am surprised, but pleased, as to how well it has progress. I had my worries at times.
Thanks... :thumb:
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You’ve prepared and practiced far more than most. I’m sure it will turn out great.
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With the sides, tops and bottoms glued together on both cabinets, and having removed the fronts, I test fit the back panels. On cabinet 2 the back fit into place with little effort and the resulting gluing proved to be as square as the back. The back is a simple rectangle and cut as square as possible with the tools I have. It fit with no flex of the sides, top or bottom.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215161)
I had similar results with refitting the front on cabinet 2 as well.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215162)
Unfortunately, the cabinet 1 came together a bit smaller and the back, front and internal braces would need slight trimming. When I say slight, I could detect no significant different in their size. But, clearly cabinet 1 was a hair smaller then 2. It took only mils of trimming the other pieces to make them fit.
With glue applied to both the rabbited area on the sides, top and bottom and to the edges of the back...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215163)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215164)
Gluing of the back to the sides, top and bottom was simple enough, with the back slipping into place. However, I forgot the side clamps on cabinet 2.. :duh:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215165)
After trimming the back for cabinet 1, the back fit easily into place and I remembered the clamps
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215166)
Once again the Titebond Original proved to be the right choice here, given the time it took to spread the glue.
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If the bass sounds bloated because they are too close to the wall, you can partially or fully plug the ports. I know Jay built his N3s with the transmission line opening to the front instead of the rear but I haven't heard of anybody doing that with the X-MTMs. Port noise is usually described as a chuffing sound coming from the ports. The higher the volume, the more prominent the sound can be.
I have the opening of my N3s on the rear and they are only 18" from the wall. If I let them play full range the bass gets a little boomy so I cross them to the sub at 40Hz. This works very well and I don't have to plug the port. You could do the same with the X-MTMs and leave the ports on the rear.
Mike
How do you implement the higher crossover at 40Hz?
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Braces have gone into both cabinets. I whipped up a clamp to hold them in place while the glue setup.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215381)
A couple of pieces of 3/4” plywood cut with bevels on the long edges to push into the quarter round pieces, which, in turn, pushes the brace up against the already installed quarter round.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215253)
A slight modification of a glue bottle was made to facilitate spreading the glue...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215254)
I once again found the Titebond II worked for this as there was done with the sides vertical and the Titebond II was thick enough to not run much. However, it does set quickly when the pieces are pressed together. This made clamping a bit difficult.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215255)
This was my first attempt, but I found that the side clamp didn’t work well when it was put on after the brace clamp was tightened. The brace clamp being tightened was enough to keep the brace or the sides from moving at all with the clamps. This meant that the clamps couldn’t push pieces into place. A different order to the sequence of assembly steps was needed.
With a little experimentation I found that if I slid the brace in place and pushed down on it and pressed it into the already installed quarter round pieces, that it would stay in place nicely while glue was spread for the second set of quarter round pieces and they were then pressed into place. After that, the side clamp needed to be installed to draw in the sides and hold them for the installation of the brace clamp.
I am not sure of the brace clamp pushed the sides out or if the sides warped a bit with time (if think the former), but I found that the sides were bowed slightly. Unfortunately I found this after the glue had setup on the 1st two braces I installed... :duh: :nono:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215256)
Either way, I found that it was important to clamp the sides and draw them inward prior to installing the braces clamp.
None the less, the first cabinet has sight bow to the side. I was able to mitigate it to some extent on that cabinet by installing a series of camps along the side, with a 5/4 board on the straight side, before I glued in the remaining braces.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215257)
The results are good enough on that cabinet that the front still fits and there is still excess to trim off. No planned rework.
For the second cabinet, I took greater care with the gluing process to mitigate bowing of the sides and to correct any warping that may have occurred. This was done simply by snugging up a side to side clamp just after the brace was pushed into place in the glue.
Overall, I am pleased with the easy with which the braces went in. The quarter rounds went in easily and served their function well. I don’t very often have a block of time to spend doing a group of steps all at once on this. With this way of doing the assembly I was able to take some time doing it and, if I wanted or needed to, I could do just one brace at a time and leave it. This was my hope when I first thought of doing the assembly this way. Thanks to Peter R for his helpful suggestion as to some of the assembly steps I used.
I did not expect or anticipated the bowing of the sides. This occurred on both cabinets, although to a much lesser extent on the second because of the care I took to clamp each brace. This may have been a result of the brace clamp I made and the bevel that pushed the quarter round into the sides.
So, I give this part of the assemble a 7 out of 10 rating. It was successful for what I wanted, but it came with a bit of an issue. Since starting this process I have come access a thread of a build of these speakers and that person used a different assembly process for the braces that involves using just butt joints (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164591.0). I have seen butt joints used elsewhere, early on, but at the time thought they would not work for me. However, with the experience I have gained and having seen this other build I think I can make them work for me. In particular, what I saw would allow me to do one at a time, if I need to, and it would still simplify the build for me. Something for my next project. :D
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I have been collecting links to helpful posts for the remainder of this build.
Peter R made a YouTube video of the assembly of NX studio monitors. (https://youtu.be/CYrdScf9eyM) Here he makes some points about clamping that are interesting. Actually the whole video is interesting. Thanks Peter. But the one about clamping seems to apply to what happened to me with the bowing. Not sure if it is exactly the same, but his point was to provide clamping to prevent this sort of thing from happening.
The other really important thing that Peter said was to go into the assembly of a cabinet with a plan. It is a really good video to watch, even for the assembly of different speaker cabinets. A lot of what he shows and talks about here is applicable across the board.
Another video that Peter made that will be helpful is the installation of No-Rez...
https://youtu.be/CtIe9XFNdVQ
Danny has made a video about assembling the crossover.
https://youtu.be/QT-GKorvjak
And Danny has made another one about doing the final wiring with some great ideas as to how to do this.
https://youtu.be/J_E4_CyHA5A
With that said, I have laid out the crossover for these speakers.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215493)
The black lines in the lower right of the picture, on the paper, are the boundaries of the board that will will fit into the cabinet. For info, I fed the wires through the slot of small zip ties to hold a pair of wires together without have to resort to bending the wires. This allow me to move things around easily while I figured out where to place everything. Copper work hardens with bending and I didn’t want to risk breaking a wire with repeated bending. And, yes, the one coil needs to be angled more towards the center of the other coil. I emailed a copy of this picture to Danny and he very quickly responded that it was OK. Thanks...
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I probably should have posted this picture before the one above with the crossover laid out...
The unboxing of the components... :dance:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215903)
A dilemma I have is what to do with the spikes. My current plan is to have a separate board attached to the bottom that is wider than the bottom to give the speaker some stability. Then comes the question of how best to attach that board to the bottom. I could glue it. Or I could put in tee nuts into the bottom of the cabinet. I am leaning towards the tee nuts.
While I am pondering that question, I am off assembling the crossovers. With the way this speaker is, I will need to to the internal assembly with the front removed. That means the No-Rez, crossover and wiring will need to be installed. Then the front will be glued on, followed by installing the drivers.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215908)
The crossovers are done on pieces of 3/16” plywood that fit the space indicated on Danny’s sketches and I used as much available space possible to make the component layout the easiest. I added a couple of raised pads for the resistors, just to make the assembly easier and to make their wires readily available. The holes for the tie downs are all made and each piece received a coat of shellac (amber, because that is what I have). The wood pieces above the boards will be spacers to locate the crossovers above the No-Rez. I would rather screw into the soft pine than the MDF and risk chipping it and these can be easily glued into the cabinet.
A mistake I just realized that I made was to not factor in the thickness of the No-Rez into available width of the cabinet for the size of the piece for the crossover. The No-Rez is 1” thick which will bring the available width down to 5”. While the boards I cut are 5” wide and the No-Rez is a bit compressible and everything should fit OK, I should have factored that in and I would have cut the pieces to be 4.75” wide. :duh:
I have also done some practice with making the recess and hole for the tweeter, using some scrap MDF.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215904)
The tweeter fits in snuggly.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215905)
I have done the same for the same for the woofer drivers. I found that the hole size recommended by the plans left the drivers slightly loose, so I made a second practice cut with a 1/6th smaller diameter. This gave those a nice snug fit with those too.
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Crossovers are done.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216159)
Twisting the wires together for soldering the way Danny shows in his video wasn’t too bad, although I which he had left that part in as it was left up to ones imagination as to how this is done. One of the things I found that helped when twisting more than 2 wires together was to first twist together the thinnest of wires as a pair, where that is possible. Where there was more than 2 wires at a junction in both the positive driver side direction and to the negative side, I also followed Danny’s diagram and first twisted the wires together of the components that were in a straight line between the input and the driver. Then I twisted in the wire of the component that went to the negative.
A hard part was attaching the red wires that go to the base drivers. I decided to run 2 wires, of equal length from the crossover to the drivers. That connection becomes large in doing this, with the coil and capacitor wires coming together as a pig tail and then weaving in the 2 driver wires. I found I could easily twist in one driver wire at a time by following the twist of the wires already twisted in. I could start the driver wire by twisting it in by hand, then resorted to pliers once there was enough of a bunch of wire to grasp. Hope that makes sense.
The red wire base circuit connection, with that bundle of wires, was also the hardest to solder. My soldering iron just want not up for the task. So, I thought it would be good to add a little extra heat from my torch setup:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216162)
:rotflmao:
No, I didn’t do that...
But I do have a small butane torch that was perfect for the task. Done in no time. I covered everything on the board with heat proof welding cloth and had the wires above the components on the board to keep heat from traveling to unwanted places.
For the negative connections I ran a single wire from the binding posts up to the tweeter. I then stripped that wire in 2 places. One place was close to the drivers. I cut 2 other pieces that were of the same length as the distance to that stripped area and twisted and solder them in place. The second stripped place was at the crossover board where the coil and capacitor shunts (? Hope I got that right) go to the negative side, and were also twisted and soldered into place.
Heat shrink tubing was fitted over each of the connections to the copper speaker wires and the red and white pairs were each twisted together.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216160)
And in the cabinet...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216161)
It turns out that Danny packs just enough wire to do the job, with a little bit of excess. Not a lot of excess, so take care with laying it out prior to cutting the wire. If a cutting mistake were to be made it would be easy to solder it back together, but I would guess that would be undesirable.
Also, I found I need to do a better job of labeling the wires when I cut them. Most were obvious as to where they go, but I did need to retrace and label one after getting things done.
Patients. This took me a while to do, between twisting the wires of the components together and doing the soldering. I also found I need a stool to sit on for this kind of work.
I tinned all of the bare copper wires before twisting them into place. This aided with soldering.
They are coming along... With that I am working on the side on a finish for these; something other than paint. I know, simple has turned into complex. I have seen too many builds with really nice finishes to let mine go with just paint... We shall see
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Danny’s speaker cable assembly thread:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=172291.0
And it is a Sticky.
As an Edit... I found the video Danny made showing how to assemble the speakers cables.
https://youtu.be/DfjQJxeTANE
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Those crossovers look really nice Jon and a very neat job on the wiring. Looking good!
What are you thinking about doing for a finish?
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Thanks!
I owe a bit of that to Danny’s video on building the crossovers and to what other people showed in their posts.
For the finish I have been practicing on scraps and my test box. I have done this sort of finish before, on other projects I have done.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216213)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216214)
This is an oil wood stain directly on the MDF with a top coat of semigloss poly. They are a bit more burgundy than the pictures show and there is a bit of texture, which is hard to see in the pictures, to the finish that goes with the MDFl. It is like the texture of the grain in real wood coming through a finish. The “end grain” of the MDF on the box is sealed with amber shellac; just the end grain, not the surface. Actually, there are some lighter streaks on the sides where the shellac ran. This gave me a visual of one vs the other. I will need to do something to prevent runs. Painter’s tape will likely work, so only the end grain gets sealed.
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I’ve never seen a finish like that before, looks like a challenge to get a consistent finish but a cool effect if you get it right. That color tone is nice and rich.
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Thanks!
It is unusual. And it has a real old school look to it, which I like.
I stumbled across it while experimenting with finishes on something else I made, but wasn’t liking what I was getting. It is pretty simple to do, but takes several days, maybe a week or more to do. The time is in drying. It is very tolerant of application; those samples were done with paper towels (I was too lazy to clean a brush :roll:). That is a mahogany oil stain layered up in 2 to 3 layers and let dry between layer; no buffing, just lay it on. Each layer will take a day or 2 to dry. Then it is sanded. I suppose it could be lightly sanded between layers to take out unwanted high spots that would become unwanted light spots if only sanding the last coat. It will ball up and gum up sand paper, but I only knock off the high spots. Then I cover it with 3 coats of poly. The first coat is sanded pretty well. The next is steel wool-ed or sanded (depending on how I feel) and then a final coat. On those samples I left the texture that came through as I wasn’t looking to get a piano finish, and the sanding was pretty light. I like how that looked so that is what I plan for the cabinets.
One thing that took some effort was to figure out how to seal the end grain of the MDF and yet still get a consistent stain across the piece. I first tired linseed oil, but that never sealed it. I then tried the shellac. I had amber on hand, not really caring if the color mattered as I was just trying to understand how well it would seal, but still allow the stain to lay on and soak in. The box test piece had 2 coat of shellac on the end grain. It turns out that the amber worked well with the stain. The other thing I found out was that I don’t want to seal any of the face of the MDF. The stain needs to be able to soak in a little. And, the drips I had didn’t fully wipe off with alcohol, so I will need to take care to prevent them. I did look at the list of ingredients on the shellac can for anything that sounded like it might be wax and found none.
Right now I am in the process of cutting and fitting the No-Rez. I still need to cut the driver and port holes in the front baffle and the binding plate hole in the back. Then I have to glue on the front, trim the excess on the edges and round the edges. That is the other thing I was practicing on my practice box; rounding the edges. The plan there is to round the front and top edges. I haven’t figured out how to put on a grill cloth. So, for now it will just be uncovered. As for the port holes in the front... These will be up against a wall. Not the best, I know.
I have a ways to go before getting to the finish. As with the rest of this build, when I get there I plan to show it in more detail.
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I have been plugging away. The No-Rez has been cutup and installed in the cabinets. The kit Danny sent me included 4 sheets of No-Rez and there was little left over, even with the added quarter round I included in the build and took up space the No-Rez would have filled. Not sure if I did things right, but it seems right.
I went the route suggested by Danny, which was to cut it on a table saw. Easy, just like he said. I did read somewhere that someone saw sparks when cutting this stuff on a band saw. To me, that says part of it is pretty abrasive. I changed out the blade on my table saw to an older blade that I wasn’t worried about damaging. I also found that a pair of tin snips worked really well to trim a slightly oversize piece (not that I mis-measured or anything like that... :duh:)
The No-Rez has a bit of a curl to it and I used a piece of plywood to hold it flat while pushing it through the saw.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216594)
Given the symmetry of the cabinets, I cut all of the side pieces and bundled them together so they wouldn’t get mixed up.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216595)
Because of the size of these speakers, the only way I could figure as to how to do any of the internal work was with the front baffle off. I started with the No-Rez for the back side first. As it turned out, I probably should have cut these pieces a bit larger (about 1/2” larger). But, there was little excess, so maybe this was the best. A little larger would have looked better, though, as it would have fully tucked under the side pieces. :roll:
Next came the top and bottom ends, followed by the sides of those chambers. I had a section of a shelving unit that I used to have the cabinet a lower height than my workbench, which made installing the No-Rez a little more comfortable to do.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216596)
The No-Rez sticks like crazy. I had seen suggestions to seal the insides with shellac, but in the builds Peter R showed in his videos, he just stuck them to the bare MDF, which is what I did. I did wipe the insides down with a little alcohol on a paper towel just to get any dust off. It dries fast and that seemed to work well. I also made sure that there were no glue drips that would cause the No-Rez to stand off the MDF and not stick fully.
Lining up the No-Rez before pressuring it in place is really important because, once it touches the MDF more than a just a little bit, it is stuck for good. Oh, I also followed Peter’s suggestion to cut the No-Rez with a gap to what ever it is adjacent to. I think he said 3/8”. I was about at this width, and in some cases less. To his point, close is good enough. This made it easy to fit the pieces in.
This all took a while to do, between the measuring, cutting, wiping and sticking it in place. To complete the job, I installed the crossover unit and got the wires all in place.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216597)
I cut the hole in the back baffle for the binding posts before putting the No-Rez in. The idea is to have the No-Rez cover the hole while I finish the cabinet. This way I don’t have to worry about dust or drips of some sort getting inside where it will be darn near impossible to get out. I did this on a practice piece I found that I could use a 1/8” drill bit in my Dremel to cut the hard part of the No-Rez and then a really sharp knife to cut the foam. I plan to do this on the front baffle for the ports. I will cover the driver holes in the front baffle with tape before I glue the front baffle into places.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216598)
I lined up and marked the holes for the mounting screws, which is what I will do for the drivers also. Things need to look good, even if they are out of sight, most of the time. It shows you care.
I am getting close to having these things done. I took my time cutting the holes in the front baffle for the drivers.
I did practice cuts for all of these holes on scrap pieces and made sure the drivers fit the resulting holes. I also recorded all of the pin hole locations for the hole jig for the router. For the actual cuts, I first drew out each hole on the front baffle before doing any cutting. This way I would know if I had selected the correct pin location on the hole cutting jig.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211466)
I am using a 1/8” cutting bit for the cutting and all of the pin hole locations on the hole cutting jig are marked for using a 1/4” cutter, so with using that jig all of pin locations had to be adjusted accordingly to get the proper hole diameter. For example, to cut a 5-1/8” dia hole, I had to use the 5-1/4” pin location.
I also found on my test piece that I had not cut the depth for the tweeter deep enough. I found this when I was doing a triple check of my setup before cutting the front baffle. I used the test piece to make adjustments to the blunge depth a little to get the tweeter flush with the baffle face, before actually cutting on the front baffle. It was good I did the checking as that would not have been an easy correction, if I have finished the hole cut before finding this out.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216599)
I first cut the recess for the tweeters, then I cut the hole, and then added the cutout for the wiring posts on the tweeters.
It is starting to look like a speaker.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216600)
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These are coming along great! :thumb:
I see you're also going with front mounted ports?
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Thanks. :D
It has taken some time, with planning and care to get to this point. It is actually exciting to see them at this point and know that soon I will be able to listen to them. I will be doing a sound check on them as my next step. I want to make sure everything works before I glue on the front baffle. After I glue on the front baffle it will be really hard to fix anything inside of these.
And, yes, front ports. There is just no room in the room to have these any distance from the wall. In fact they have to be right up against the wall. So, a compromise... :?
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Before I went any further, I thought it would be a good idea to do a sound check. I would hate to glue on the front baffle only to find out that I had some wires crossed somewhere or the like and had to go dig out the crossover and fix it at that point.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216977)
Yes, that would be tough to fix after the front is on... Where are you? Definitely not getting 2 hands in there.
The sound check would entail setting the front baffle in place, along with drivers, and then wiring everything up with an amplifier and iPhone. Nothing would be actually fixed in place. Then I dug out my really old, extremely high end audio amplifier (circa: older than dirt). It was on a shelf, behind a stack of books in the attic...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216973)
Then wiring it up with nothing but the best of connectors.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216974)
I think in Danny’s latest video he mentioned something about selling his kits to college kid who had no money but really liked really good audio. Well that was me. I just couldn’t afford “really good”. :duh:
Then wiring up the drivers with the best high end bent wire connections I could muster.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216975)
More of the same to wire the speakers to the amplifier.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216976)
Then it was off to listen to some tunes...
Pandora...
Hmmmm. A little underwhelming. That was disappointing. But, hey, maybe the amplifier wasn’t up to what it used to be. And only one speaker was hooked up. What can I say... I got done with one and was excited to hear it.
It was late and I did what my mother-in-law used to say to her kids... Sleep on it. Things will look (hear?) different in the morning.
Next day... Wired up the other speaker. Powered up the amp. Hmmmm.... No sound from the right speaker. Switch wires from one speaker to the other... Hmmmm.... no sound from the left speaker. Twist the right/left channel knob back and forth a few times... Crackle, crackle, scratch, crackle.... Oh, there we go, sound out of both speakers. Now, go find something to play. Try YouTube this time. Maybe the quality is better than Pandora. Tiffany Poon (concert pianist). Ok, sounds good, but a little hard to tell much given the speakers are on their backs and it is hard to get into the proper listening position (ie: suspended from the ceiling ... :lol:). Cream... You know - Eric Clapton, Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker? How about the reunion concert in the Royal Albert Hall a few years back, and they look about the way I look now?
After about the 4th song, including Toad with that, what, 4 hour long Baker drum solo, the wife comes down into the basement mumbling something about “You can turn that down now”. What? It didn’t seem that loud down there, but I guess it could be heard in the rest of the house.
Yup, that will do. And yes, they did sound much better with both hooked up and playing, and playing something of better quality than what Pandora had. And I did check that both bass drivers were playing in unison as you could see their movement with a good bass note, of which there were plenty. Highs were going to the tweeter, too. Sound check finished.
Now, to get them finished.
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I hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving! :thumb:
We did... :green:
I even progressed a little further on the speakers.
I have been pondering what to do for stands for these, and still have not got it quite figured out. The kit includes floor spikes, but I hesitated to use them on hardwood floors. But, while I consider that, I knew I needed to include something on the bottom of the speakers to attach whatever I come up with for a stand.
The easiest thing to do (at least for me) is to install insert nuts (I think that is what they are called). These are 3/4” long, 1/4x20 threaded metal pieces that screw into a hole in a wood piece. My original plan was to drill these holes in the bottom before I installed the No-Rez, so the No-Rez would cover and seal the holes. It would also be simple as I could just drill through holes and it would be easy to clean up the mess.
Well, the best laid plans of mice and men...
The installation of the No-Rez took my attention away from my planned assembly sequence and that went in first. Now the hole drilling got a little more difficult as I didn’t want to drill through the No-Rez. This actually went well and all of the holes are done. It just too a bit of time and care to do.
I made a template that is 1.5” thick to guide the drill perpendicular to the base. It has a top rest to ensure it is lined up. This will also serve to be the template for whatever I come up with for a stand.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217479)
When I finished drilling the holes I beveled them a little so the insert nut fits flush with the bottom. My plan is to do the finish on the cabinets before putting in the nuts. The back and bottom will done in flat black paint, first, then I will concentrate on finishing the rest of it.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217480)
I have also finished installing the No-Rez on the front baffles and taped over the openings to facilitate the finishing process (rounding the corners, sanding and the actual finish).
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217481)
These are now ready to be glued on... This will be the last chance to fix anything internally (not that I think anything is wrong) before gluing these on. Once that is done, there will be no going back... :o
I have watched enough of Danny’s videos to know that he very much dislikes having anything magnetic in the signal path and that any upgrade he does works to remove any that is found. While going through the parts I received in the kit, I notice bright, shiny, silver colored parts in the binding posts...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217482)
Yup, magnetic. :cry:
And the “brass” looking spacer washer is clearly not brass as it, too, is magnetic.
The rest of the parts are non magnetic.
I also noticed the signal path is from the threaded post, into the nut and through a very little lock washer before it gets to where the internal wire connects. Not much surface contact area with that.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217483)
So I created my own little upgrade for the binding posts. I know the binding post are less than ideal, but I figure that any improvement here is still an improvement. Fastenal is great for things like this and I found the washers, lock washers and nuts all in some form of brass or bronze. The nuts are M4-0.7 metric brass, the lock washer is a #8 silicon bronze and the washers are #10 silicon bronze. The washers are used as a flange on the outside of the binding post and 2 replacement washers are needed for each post to replace the magnetic spacer that was there. I also changed the arrangement to have 2 nuts, one each side of the piece that connects to the wire. I figure this will greatly increase the contact area between these parts, which should improve the signal path.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217484)
The binding posts with and without the magnetic parts.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217485)
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Nice job upgrading the nuts and washers.
This video might help too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVcOWx7hQiQ&t=127s
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Nice job upgrading the nuts and washers.
This video might help too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVcOWx7hQiQ&t=127s
Thanks!
I checked all of the pieces in the binding posts for being magnetic. I was surprised that the brass looking washer was weakly magnetic, so maybe some amount of iron in it, which is why I decided to replace it. The post itself and the terminal piece were both non magnetic, so I left those.
Your videos are really good, and helpful. I have watched that one and the one for soldering the crossover. The reminder is good, though, as I will soon be getting to that last step of soldering the drivers.
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Thanks!
I checked all of the pieces in the binding posts for being magnetic. I was surprised that the brass looking washer was weakly magnetic, so maybe some amount of iron in it, which is why I decided to replace it. The post itself and the terminal piece were both non magnetic, so I left those.
Your videos are really good, and helpful. I have watched that one and the one for soldering the crossover. The reminder is good, though, as I will soon be getting to that last step of soldering the drivers.
Trust me go for the tube connectors before you button up the speakers and it's too late! I trialled ebay connectors crimped with spade connectors etc to the crossover wires and soldered tube connectors. Night and day difference.:)
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Trust me go for the tube connectors before you button up the speakers and it's too late! I trialled ebay connectors crimped with spade connectors etc to the crossover wires and soldered tube connectors. Night and day difference.:)
Thanks for the suggestion. :thumb:
At this point, all bottomed up as of a couple of days ago when the front baffles were glued into place. So little little access to where the binding posts are located and where tube connectors would go. However, I have options, even in that area, to retrofit tube connectors at a later point in time. The binding post cup will be removable and I could retrofit them through that if need be.
It is a good suggestion and one that I considered when I bought the kit. I do understand the benefits of the tube connectors. When I purchased the kit, I corresponded with Danny about what would work for me given the level of equipment I have. Based on that I made the choice for the binding post. Tube connectors remain an option should I upgrade.
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I have sanded the back and bottom of each cabinet in preparation for painting them flat black before doing the rest of the finishing.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218147)
Yup, I made some mistakes doing the flush routing of the sides to the back. It seems that my hands are not as steady as they used to be.
With that done, the backs and bottoms were painted.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218150)
That would allow me to set the cabinets on their backs without having to worry about “messing” them up.
With that done it was time to round the corners.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218148)
The edge guide is to allow the router to run off beyond the end of the cabinet without needing to do that by hand. I used a 1/2” round router bit with the bearing to follow the sides.
I was not thrilled with the router bit I used. It was an inexpensive bit (Skill brand). First, it didn’t make a good tangent with the sides, even on the bearing end of the bit. On the router end, if I lowered the router to the point the tangent was reasonable, I ran the risk of having a ridge from going too deep. The second problem I had was that the cutter gummed up. This was a carbide bit, but still acted as if it was dull. Looking back on it, I would have saved myself a lot of sanding time (to get the tangents better) if I had a better quality bit. I wasn’t being cheap. I had this bit from a while back, as part of a set and didn’t even think it would be a problem. Lesson learned, get good quality bits for this work.
With the corners all rounded:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218149)
The tops, sides and fronts were all sanded smooth with 120 then 220 grit paper. The cordless, random orbit sander worked really well for this.
I then sealed all of the end grain edges of the MDF with amber shellac. The amber, being a bit darker, did better to match the stain I planned to use. It should be noted that once sealed with the shellac the end grain areas do not absorb stain as readily as the face of the MDF. This made the staining a little more difficult to get an even coat. Then again, it made the rounded corners stand out a little from the rest of the cabinet. Embrace the difference... :green:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218151)
Yah, at this point the finish looks pretty ugly. The cabinet in the forefront has 2 coats of stain on it, still wet in the picture, and the cabinet in the back has one coat. But this will be improved.
After hand rubbing the 12+ hr dried stain with a cloth and then, about 8 hrs later, with a fine Scotchbright pad it is looking better already.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218152)
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These are coming along great!
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Looking really good Jon!
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Thanks, and Thanks... :thumb:
It is nice to be on the finishing stretch... (every pun intend... :lol:)
I am very curious as to how this finish will turn out. From what I see right now, the two cabinets are looking different from each other. I am finding that once the stain goes on, it has a mind of its own and it isn’t until it sets up a bit that I get to see what it will look like. Definitely these will be a study in imperfection. :wink:
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Third time is a charm.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218284)
I appear to be a victim of my own recollection. I have done this finish several times in the past few years, but it has been so infrequent that the details of the steps I have figured out in the past escaped me for this effort. I had a myriad of thin coverage areas, missed spots and runs to deal with. Finally, with the third coat, I recalled how I did the coating in the past and I was able to get the thin coverage areas and missed spots covered. The runs took a bit of buffing to eliminate them. I am pleased with the result. Now it needs to sit, untouched, so it can dry. This will take 3 or 4 days to dry enough to allow it to be rubbed down with a fine Scotchbright pad. Then comes the varnish.
As it turns out my problems resulted from the lighting and use of a brush to apply the stain. I find that no matter how much artificial light I use, it is never enough to see details. The LED lights also don’t help if they are the wrong warmth; not enough red in them. It is a red-ish stain, so with little or no red in the light, what shows up is black-ish with no detail. I was also using a brush to apply the stain. It seemed that, with the brush, it was easy for me to miss spots or get an uneven coat or get it on too thick which would run. Recollection then kick in... In the past I have used a rag to apply the stain. The perfect rag for this was an old athletic sock, turned inside out, so the terry cloth part is exposed. With my hand protected with a rubber glove and the sock slipped over the hand, it was short work to get the final coat right.
And as for a Scotchbright pad vs steel wool, I tried both with this and have settled on the pad. The stain, even reasonably well dried, still has enough tackiness to pull apart the steel wool. Then I worried about some of those shreds, some how, getting inside the cabinet, where I could never get them out. The pad has its issues too. Even the fine version will tend to unevenly scratch the very soft dried stain. But with care it can be made to work. In that respect, I like the steel wool over the pad. It is easier for me to evenly and uniformly buff a finish. Just not on the stain if it is at all tacky.
As with any stain, this is translucent and some of the “grain” of the MDF, which shows up as random bits of darker and light pieces, shows through, but only if one looks closely at it. There is also a bit of color variation between the surface of the MDF and the edge of the MDF, that I sealed with the shellac. This also adds an interesting look to it. I did leave one area at the bottom unsealed, just to see how that would turn out. It turned out well. Where the sealed end grain tends to be lighter, the unsealed end gain tends to be darker. I could see doing this finish either way, if I were to do it again.
I figure another week or 2 of finishing time to complete these. With other things happening, including the holidays, it will likely be a week or 2 beyond that. Once they are done, I will see if I can get them outside for some natural light pictures. Of course that would be if old man winter cooperates... :roll:
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Nicely done! Maybe listening to them by Christmas?
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Thanks :thumb:
We shall see. That would be a nice “present” if I could do that. :xmas: I checked the stain today and it is about dry. I am committed to other things over the next few days, including a prediction of 11 to 13 inches of snow and I have yet to pull the snow blower out of storage... :duh: Maybe this weekend for the first coat of varnish? I even bought a new brush for it. :green:
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Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone.
It has been an “interesting” year for me in many respects. “Interesting” in both a good, fun and new experience way, and in a less than good way, some of which we all experienced. Finding out about GR Research and the available DIY projects has to be at the top of good, fun and new experience list.
Around here the holiday season has been good. However, Mother Nature put a damper on me finishing the speakers for Christmas. That was a good target, but a 30” snow fall put that plan on the back burner...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218888)
My 47+ year old snowblower doing the job :green:
But snow removal efforts on the third driveway I was helping with left me with having to do an emergency repair of the snowblower. The triage pushed the speaker work off to the side while repairs were being made.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218889)
The tension pins that attach the impeller to its driveshaft have broken before because of wear and looseness of parts at this stage of its life. You would think I would have spares... Not that I could find, so a day lost while I waited for stores to reopen. These pins are common hardware store parts so they are readily available, when the city hasn’t been shut down by a major snow storm... :roll:
Snow is now gone, as quickly as it came with the help of a heavy rain.
The basement is dry and I am back to completing the finish on the speaker cabinets...
And, oh, this has been an experience... :roll:
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Well?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=219214)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=219215)
I went to work on the cabinet finish after cleaning up from the snow storm.
I am in awe of those who managed to put a piano finish on their builds as I found that I am far from being able to do that.
Doing the varnish finish on my cabinets turned out to be thee frustrating part of the whole build and I wasn’t even trying for a piano finish.
I used Minwax semi-gloss polyethylene varnish, which has done well by me before. I even followed their recommendation to use a natural bristle brush and bought a new one.
Well, it didn’t do well by me this time. Did they recently change their formulation? This isn’t the first thing I have finished, and I don’t recall ever having the issues I had this time. And this was a fresh/new can of varnish. I am sure everyone has their favorite varnish, and I bet there are much better products than this. Feel free to post your recommendations as I will need something better for the next speakers I build...
The first thing I ran into was literally that... Runs. And sags on the vertical sides. I thought I was putting it on thin enough, but no. Also, some of this happened after the varnish started to set up so there was no fixing it without leaving brush marks. The next issue was with sanding. They recommended 220 grit. I knew that wasn’t right and used some 320. It leveled out the drips and sags, but it also left scratch marks over the whole thing that OO steel wool would not remove. 320 grit was still not fine enough.
Then there was blending. I had the cabinets laying on their backs with the fronts up. On the fronts (horizontal) the varnish laid on nicely and leveled nicely. I brought the fresh coat down the rounded corners so when I did the sides there would be some wet varnish to run into. Oops... This little bit of wet varnish would setup on one side while I was applying varnish to the other side. By the time I got to the second side I was leaving brush marks in that setup wet coat...
While the varnish on the front leveled well, bubbles that the brush left behind would not pop. There was to much surface tension to the varnish for that to happen.... Ugh!
Lighting also played into this. I found there is never enough light and it has to come from all angles. But when it comes from all angles, it winds up shining in one’s eyes. There is almost no winning with this one. But over all, more light is better. Several of the coats of varnish I put on had to be redone because of missed spots that I couldn’t see when I was applying the varnish. More light, please!
After 5 coats of varnish, and :banghead: - I am done... Good enough!
4 more, well placed, 3’ strips of LED work lights helped a lot. This was in addition to the 2 I had and the 6 clamp-on lights I was using. About 300W of LED lights in total. :o I worked most of the bubbles out by lightly dragging the brush through the coat. I spent more time to spread the varnish thinner on the sides, but this wasn’t 100% successful. I found a nice 400 grit sand paper and holder that worked well, along with the OO steel wool. I worked with a wet brush to blend the side coat into the coat from the front that was setting up. This all basically worked. The little bit of remaining brush marks, drips and runs will be unnoticeable where they speakers will be located. I will just think of them as adding a bit of “character” to the cabinets; an artificial rendition of a wood grain finish. :green:
Next - installing drivers, adding the ports and testing them out... :dance: I think I can handle that... :green:
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Wiring is done and the drivers are installed. The only thing I did differently from what Danny recommends is I did pass the wire through the hole in the binding post tabl
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=219503)
I have a set of crimpers for sheet metal that I was able to use to put a kink in the wire so it would lay flat on the binding post tab for soldering. I had to do this as my hands are no longer steady enough to hold the wire in place the way Danny shows, and, at the same time, hold the binding post and soldering iron. I had the cabinets upright while wiring up the binding posts as I didn’t want to lay them down on the fronts that I had just spent so much time finishing and take a chance of damaging it.
For the drivers, I laid the cabinets down on their backs and had the driver resting on the fronts that were protected with a rubber sheet. These were soldered just as Danny shows in his video, with the wire laid flat on the tab and not through the hole.
The hardest part of all of this was remembering to put the heat shrink tubing over the wire first.. :duh: not that I forgot to do this at least twice... :shake:
Finished
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=219506)
COMPLETED AND HOOKED UP
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=219505)
And how did they sound?
:drums:
OMG!
AMAZING
I know that my ears are bad and I thought that was the cause for me not understanding words being spoke in TV show and in movies. Well not any more. Words are clear and distinct.
I got lost in listening to the 1995 recording of Cream at the Royal Albert Hall. Jack Bruce’s and Eric Clapton’s voices are now clear not mumbling as I had thought. Bass is solid and deep; much deeper than I expected.
In a mini concert by Nora Jones, that is done from a room in her home, I could hear the room coloring her voice.
There is a clarity and transparency to these speaker that is almost unnatural.
The base is solid and they play lower than I expected. Yes, I know what they are rated at, but I don’t know what that means when listening to them. I would say, a subwoofer would be nice but not necessary.
These are what everyone said they would be... :thumb:
Was I surprised? Yes, a bit. Everyone claims their speakers to be the best, so I took those claims with a grain of salt. Are they the best ever? I don’t know as I have nothing worthy of that comparison to assess that possibly. For me, though, I am more than satisfied.
And all of this is with a system that is Dime Store in comparison to what I have seen posted on here. But as a lot of people have said:
A bad set of speaker can make a really good system sound bad,
But a really good set of speakers can make a mediocre system sound really good.
I got what I was hoping for. Thanks everyone for your help and comments.
I have in the works a set of stands for these and someday there will be a set of gril cloths for them. A little more to come.
Also, next is a center channel and rear speakers... :green:
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Congrats on the getting them done - they look great!!
Yeah, I hear you re: being surprised at how good even the 'modest' GR Research speakers are. A friend of mine has the upgraded CST 1's Danny designed and it anchors one of the best sounding systems I've ever heard. Just a natural clarity, combined with punchy clean bass and an easy and engaging musicality. Sounds like you are getting exactly that too!!
Makes you want to go and re-listen to all your favorite recordings, doesn't it?
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Those look great! The X-Series are such a great value. Enjoy! :thumb:
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I can’t believe the journey is over!! They look great Jon, and I’m glad you are enjoying them. Danny’s designs are really outstanding.
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Thanks everyone... :thumb:
It has been quite a journey, one I have very much enjoyed. But, unlike some journeys where the end is anticlimactic, the end of this journey is anything but that. These speakers continually amaze. We watched the animated movie Soul last night. It is about a jazz piano player, and has some great music. The transparency of these speakers really makes them “disappear” and it is easy to forget that there is a set of speakers there and not the live band or person that you are listening to.
And, yes, there are some old favorites that I want to re-listen to, as well as some new ones. I am curious as to what I have been missing in those recordings...
I also realized, after listening to these, why there are some prolific builders of Danny’s speakers on this blog. While building these I thought, maybe, it was the enjoyment of the build that drove the proliferation. While I suspect that is part of it, I now think it has more to do with the end product and finding out what each of the designs provides the listener. I, too, now want more... And more there shall be... :green:
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Congratulations on your build, they look gorgeous!
I'm glad to hear they've exceeded your expectations to boot, thats definitely how I've felt about my pair of XLS, and makes me all the more excited for the completion of my NX-Studios with even better quality components.
Enjoy them!
And im excited to see what your next project(s) will be! :thumb:
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Thanks!
Another couple of observations about the X-MTMs I built. It was noted early on in this thread that having the ports in the front, like I went with, could cause some huffing noise. For the volume levels I have gone to, no issues with that. I haven’t quite gotten to rattling the neighbor’s windows, but plenty loud for my tastes. Also, I have not yet played ELP’s Lucky Man, which should push most any bass driver to its excursion limits. But for most anything else, I would say that having the ports in front will produce a quite acceptable sound. Also, I find that my overall listening volume levels are lower than what I had used before. I expect this is because they don’t have the dips in frequency response that my previous speakers had, and because they are so clear and precise that high volumes are no longer necessary for me to hear and understand things.
As for my next projects, the first will be a center channel - the X-CS.
After that will be rear channel speakers. I am still up in the air for that, except they will need to be free standing towers. There are the X-SLS, X-Omni and the AV-O. I would really like to do the X-Omni, but at $5,000 a pair they are a bit out of my prices range :dunno: Really, I think Danny is just saying that he doesn’t have parts for them... Next would be the AV-O, but I wonder how well they would match the X-MTMs and X-CS. I like the idea of the omni-directional sound field Danny talks about that these speakers make and I expect the X-Omni will have the same characteristic. The X-SLS is definitely in the mix of choices, too.
The reality is, that having to choose a rear channel set of speakers is probably 6 months out, so I am not yet over thinking this. :roll:
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The X-Omni arent actually $5000, it's just a place holder until it gets updated. It should be closer to the price of the XLS, youll just have to call danny for a more accurate price, and like the X-SLS it should be closest in terms of tone than the AV-O
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The X-Omni arent actually $5000, it's just a place holder until it gets updated. It should be closer to the price of the XLS, youll just have to call danny for a more accurate price, and like the X-SLS it should be closest in terms of tone than the AV-O
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Ya, I was guessing it was something like that for the Omnis...
I do like the idea of them for the rear channel in the room they would be in. When I get closer to the build, I will definitely be contacting Danny. :thumb:
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Basic X-Omni kit is $310
Upgrade for Sonicap capacitors and Mills resistors is $285
Upgrade for tube connectors is $50
Danny sent me that info. yesterday.
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Basic X-Omni kit is $310
Upgrade for Sonicap capacitors and Mills resistors is $285
Upgrade for tube connectors is $50
Danny sent me that info. yesterday.
Thanks for the info. Not surprised at the price, which is similar to that of the X-MTMs that I am building...
So the price with Sonicaps and Mills is one Zero off from what he posted... ~$500. :lol:
Amazing how one zero, more or less, on a price of something really changes one’s perspective of it... : :o
Have you started to building the X-Omni?
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I can confirm they work great as rear surrounds.
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I can confirm they work great as rear surrounds.
That is what I was looking for, and for those, I can have them away from walls so I can make them they way they are intended to be made...
Did you do a build thread for them that you can post a link to?
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That is what I was looking for, and for those, I can have them away from walls so I can make them they way they are intended to be made...
Did you do a build thread for them that you can post a link to?
No, mine were made by AV123. I traded a tube amp for them. Later I upgraded the crossovers with Sonicaps which helped open the sound up more.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209366)
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Thanks for the info. Not surprised at the price, which is similar to that of the X-MTMs that I am building...
So the price with Sonicaps and Mills is one Zero off from what he posted... ~$500. :lol:
Amazing how one zero, more or less, on a price of something really changes one’s perspective of it... : :o
Have you started to building the X-Omni?
No, I was just curious what the cost was, especially with the upgrades.
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No, mine were made by AV123. I traded a tube amp for them. Later I upgraded the crossovers with Sonicaps which helped open the sound up more.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209366)
Darn...
You had posted that picture on the first page of this thread. They looked to be pretty ideal for rear channel speakers in the room I have. I was hoping to find a build thread; did a search but was unsuccessful. I’ll do some more digging. None the less, I am thinking that will be the way I will go...
But first, I need to finish stands for these and build a center channel...
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Should be a relatively easy build. It has 3 or 4 internal braces with a port on the rear. Crossover is mounted to a bottom panel that’s screwed in. Try calling or emailing Danny for the plans.
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Ok - Not sure what is going on here, but all of my pictures have disappeared from my thread here. They seem to be in my gallery, but all of the links are gone or something like that has happened.... :bawl:
I found a “request for site help” thread and posted my finding there, along with many others:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=174648.new#new
That seems like a good place to post issues like this. Hope someone comes up with a fix as this is a mess...
If anyone knows what is going on, post it there and let us all know...
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Ok - Not sure what is going on here, but all of my pictures have disappeared from my thread here. They seem to be in my gallery, but all of the links are gone or something like that has happened.... :bawl:
I found a “request for site help” thread and posted my finding there, along with many others:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=174648.new#new
That seems like a good place to post issues like this. Hope someone comes up with a fix as this is a mess...
If anyone knows what is going on, post it there and let us all know...
Yeah, it's happened to all threads and posts. Right now. Not sure what happened, but hopefully it wont permanently affect the forum for all current and past posts
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I saw that other threads across AudioCircle were affected. It would truly not be good if this can’t be recovered... And I have heard nothing from my post on the AC help thread.
As that goes, I finished the bases for these speakers. These have adjustable feed so I can level the speakers in the old and warped house I live in... :roll: And they are an out rigger style so they support the speakers from tipping over.
I can now declare them to be done. :dance:
Pictures to come when the site problems are fixed... :x
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(Deleted post)
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(Deleted post)
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I AM DONE!
THE X-MTMs ARE FINISHED!
At least as much as I plan to do. I may do some sort of covering for the drivers and ports. But not thinking of that now.
The last thing I had to do was to make a base for these. They are top heavy and on carpet they are tippy. And my floors in my old house are less than perfectly level.
Here is what they look like
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220233)
The stands are perfect, IMHO... :green:
The stands started out as a layout on my work bench. It was the only place large enough to be able to make the radii that these used.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220225)
Have you ever seen one of these?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220227)
I picked them up from a used tool store that we used to have around here.
I add a pencil to one pointer using some Loctight blued gummy stuff.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220228)
I used this to layout the large radii for the sides of the bases. Once I had the whole thing laid out on the workbench to my satisfaction I transferred it over to a plywood template. The template also had holes drilled in it for where the mounting screws and the leveling knobs/screws are to go.
The outline of the template was traced onto some vernier finished 3/4” plywood and the holes were transferred to the plywood by drilling to just a shallow depth. After the pieces were cut from the plywood, I finish the drilling on a drill press to ensure the holes were straight.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220229)
Sanding the radii presented a challenge. I needed a curved sanding bloc. I found that the backside of the rubber sanding blocks I have would work for this, as did the sticky back sandpaper I have.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220230)
I rounded the top corner with with a 1/2” round. Then painted them with a primer (happened to be white) and then used a roller to put on the gloss black enamel latex. This left an interesting texture and in places the white of the primer shows through, which gives them a bit of a marble look.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220231)
I used 1/4”x2” threaded knobs for the levelers and put nylon acorn nuts to keep the floors from being scratched. At first I was going to use threaded inserts, then I found I could thread the 3/4” plywood with a 7/32” hole with a 1/4x20 threaded rod with some wax added to the rod. I ran the rod in and out a few times with a drill to work the wax into the wood. It makes for a tight fit and I don’t have to worry about the levelers backing out with any vibrations.
I added sheet of adhesive back black felt to them where the speaker will mount. The thought for this is that the bases won’t stick to the speakers and it will keep the interface from making any noises.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220232)
I used black button head screws with Allen wrench sockets, through the base, to attach the base to the speaker and threaded inserts in the bottom of the speakers. The only thing I would have done differently would be to put the inserts into the speaker bottoms long before I put the drivers in... :duh:
Done!
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Cool, I bet you're happy to get to the finish line.
I know that compassy thing as a trammel, but that could be just my definition. Kind of a cool looking old thing.
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Those look great! :thumb:
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Cool, I bet you're happy to get to the finish line.
I know that compassy thing as a trammel, but that could be just my definition. Kind of a cool looking old thing.
Very happy. This is one case where the destination is better than adventure to get there. I am thrilled with the way the speakers sound.
You nailed on the name, trammel. I looked it up and here is Starrett’s current web page for these:
https://www.starrett.com/category/111302#currentPage=1&displayMode=grid&itemsPerPage=12&sortBy=wp/asc
I love a lot of the old school tools. So many of them were very well made, served a purpose with a bit of genius and simplicity, and they typically had a flare for artistry. I am glad I picked it up when I saw it.
Those look great! :thumb:
Thanks!
I owe a great deal of this successful completion to everyone who offered advise, those who posted about their builds, which I read a lot of, and those who posted build videos.
And I appreciate everyone who followed this, made comments and carried on various discussion. It help to shape my thinking about doing this build. This might never have happened without this web site... :thumb:
And there is more to come... :green:
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I have already started a new set of builds. This time it is an X-CS that will be a center channel to go with these X-MTMs and a pair of X-LS that will be a birthday present for on of my daughters. The builds are coming along nicely and if you would like to follow along, I have started a new thread here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=174915
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A friend saw my X-MTMs and thought he would try them as the sound system for his classic Mini:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=221131)
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Now that I have had a chance to listen to the X-MTMs, here are some thoughts...
I have read more than one post where the person expressed what I took to be surprise as to the quality of the sound, the transparency, the range, etc that the X-MTMs are capable of.
I will admit to being one of those people. The hype is almost overwhelming. People are almost overboard. Before one has a chance to hear them it is easy to believe the reviews are, maybe, a bit overblown.
Any doubt as to how good the X-MTMs really are melted away when I first powered them up. It took me about 30 seconds of listening to them to understand that I had put together and just fired up something special. The next realization as to how great they sound came from my wife’s reaction to them. She has sat down with me for hours of music listening, which she has never done before. She knows nothing of being an audiophile. She just knows what sounds good to her. And what she can tolerate as to sound quality.
These are speakers you can listen to for hours. Jazz, Rock, Blues, Classical - it doesn’t matter.
And they will shake the floor with the sound track of many movies and TV shows. In the room I have them in I can find no faults with them. The bass respond is superb without the need for a subwoofer. It doesn’t take much volume these to produce base that can be felt in one’s chest. And it goes without saying that the mid and high ranges are there to entertain.
I mentioned “transparency”... Voices come out of the center of the TV. I have actually looked over at a side wall of the room at times because it seem that was where the sound was coming from. How does that happen with 2 channel sound? Amazing!
I have found a number of post on YouTube that showcase the qualities and range of the X-MTMs. Here are a few that I greatly appreciate:
Hiromi Uehara - Voice - Vienna 2011 live https://youtu.be/nIYIAuwzsGQ
She plays a unique form of jazz. The recordings are excellent and the 6 string base is amazing. I like the drummer she has in this timeframe. The later dummer is overdone.
Ahmad Jamal - Poinciana - Olympia Paris - live https://youtu.be/cytUz9KkK9M
This is just an amazing piano jazz recording. Again the mixing did full justice to the bass playing as with everything else.
Eric Clapton & Peter Frampton - “While My Guitar Gently Weeps” https://youtu.be/K1ijcpo1Ep8
The expression on Peter Frampton’s face at the end of this is worth it alone to watch this. He is clearly in awe of having just played beside Eric Clapton.
Cream (Royal Albert Hall 2005) https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL72C23EF77CEADE68
Anyone can appreciate this play list, not just those of my generation. Eric, Jack and Ginger are still amazing and that is complimented by a recording worthy of their performance.
There are many others that should be listed here, I’m sure. But that is beyond the point of this thread.
It is sufficient to say I will continue to enjoy everything I play through these. And I hope anyone thinking about building a set of these dives in and does it. They are worth well beyond any effort you will put into them.
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Had I not already bought a pair of X-Statiks currently in the middle of repairs/upgrades to them, along with my NX-Studio build the X-MTMs are probably the next of my list of speakers to build.. (along with the smaller, old N-3s if my deep cup mod proved to be a viable option, or maybe even a hybrid of the two... lol)
But I'm glad they've lived up to the hype! And eveb impressed the wife! :thumb:
Speaking of the Clapton & Framton performance, I was lucky enough to be there for that concert! Crossroads 2019 was an amazing weekend, with a ton of amazing music, and the Frampton performance was absolutely incredible, even better than when I saw him in Tampa a couple weeks prior! :thumb:
Cheers! :beer:
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This is great. The track list is good and I'll be sure to check those out. I found particular joy in revisiting some old standbys like anything off Kind of Blue (Miles Davis, as if I need to say it), Pink Floyd, even ELO had some additional fun that we had never heard before.
Conversely, we discovered that some of our favorite songs are not actually produced very well (either recording or mixing or both), which made them less enjoyable :(. Audiophiles often get rightfully roasted for listening to the gear rather than the music, but these experiences start to illustrate why they (we? am I an audiophile now?) start to favor music that gains texture and depth with better equipment.
Your experience with the bass mirrors mine. Not only is it deep, but it has some punch and life to it. I'm so used to only flabby subwoofers providing those frequencies that things like stand up basses really come alive with these in a way I've not heard out of speakers before.
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It’s true, none of Danny’s speakers are ‘entry level’. All of them are true high end performers. The ones that you built, they would go for at least $5k and probably closer to $8k if built by a traditional speaker manufacturer.
Re: poorly recorded music, IME it still sounds better on a great system than it would sound on a poor system, but it’s always a bit disappointing that it doesn’t have that magic that good recordings have.
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Had I not already bought a pair of X-Statiks currently in the middle of repairs/upgrades to them, along with my NX-Studio build the X-MTMs are probably the next of my list of speakers to build.. (along with the smaller, old N-3s if my deep cup mod proved to be a viable option, or maybe even a hybrid of the two... lol)
But I'm glad they've lived up to the hype! And eveb impressed the wife! :thumb:
Speaking of the Clapton & Framton performance, I was lucky enough to be there for that concert! Crossroads 2019 was an amazing weekend, with a ton of amazing music, and the Frampton performance was absolutely incredible, even better than when I saw him in Tampa a couple weeks prior! :thumb:
Cheers! :beer:
If you ever get to building a set of the X-MTMs and do a build thread, feel free to let me know here... :thumb: It seems that everyone does their builds a little bit different from others and I am curious to see how people come through the build of these kits.
That concert had to have been fantastic. I have a DVD of one of the earlier Crossroads concerts and it is a wonderful showcase of talent. I did have to look up Peter Frampton as he didn’t look physically well in the YouTube video. This is a quote from his web page (http://www.frampton.com/bio/) “... Frampton, who was recently diagnosed with inclusion body myositis (IBM), an inflammatory disease that weakens and atrophies the muscles in the arms, hands, and legs. “I’ll always be able to sing, but at the moment I don’t know how much longer I’ll be able to play guitar. Fortunately, I have a bunch of friends who can play guitar and help me out. Some of them are pretty good, too!” ”. I am glad to see that he had this opportunity and continues to play.
This is great. The track list is good and I'll be sure to check those out. I found particular joy in revisiting some old standbys like anything off Kind of Blue (Miles Davis, as if I need to say it), Pink Floyd, even ELO had some additional fun that we had never heard before.
Conversely, we discovered that some of our favorite songs are not actually produced very well (either recording or mixing or both), which made them less enjoyable :(. Audiophiles often get rightfully roasted for listening to the gear rather than the music, but these experiences start to illustrate why they (we? am I an audiophile now?) start to favor music that gains texture and depth with better equipment.
Your experience with the bass mirrors mine. Not only is it deep, but it has some punch and life to it. I'm so used to only flabby subwoofers providing those frequencies that things like stand up basses really come alive with these in a way I've not heard out of speakers before.
Very will put. All of it. And I have listened to the King of Blues... :thumb: plus others.
I especially liked “ listening to the gear rather than the music “. Nope, not here. Music, voice - it is all about the sound. And your description of the base response is spot on. When I was building these I wondered how would these be able to drive down to 40 Hz with these tiny drivers.... Hearing is believing, and there is punch and life to it...
It’s true, none of Danny’s speakers are ‘entry level’. All of them are true high end performers. The ones that you built, they would go for at least $5k and probably closer to $8k if built by a traditional speaker manufacturer.
Re: poorly recorded music, IME it still sounds better on a great system than it would sound on a poor system, but it’s always a bit disappointing that it doesn’t have that magic that good recordings have.
So true!
That is what I have read in comments about Danny’s designs. Their performance value is really high. I saw a New Record Day review of the Q Acoustic Concept 500 speakers (https://youtu.be/V3YkZx7Cbyc), which look surprisingly a lot like Danny’s X-MTMs. They are about 10x the price of Danny’s kit. I would think these provide a benchmark of the value of Danny’s X-MTMs. And I have the added satisfaction of having made these myself. :green:
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If you ever get to building a set of the X-MTMs and do a build thread, feel free to let me know here... :thumb: It seems that everyone does their builds a little bit different from others and I am curious to see how people come through the build of these kits.
That concert had to have been fantastic. I have a DVD of one of the earlier Crossroads concerts and it is a wonderful showcase of talent. I did have to look up Peter Frampton as he didn’t look physically well in the YouTube video. This is a quote from his web page (http://www.frampton.com/bio/) “... Frampton, who was recently diagnosed with inclusion body myositis (IBM), an inflammatory disease that weakens and atrophies the muscles in the arms, hands, and legs. “I’ll always be able to sing, but at the moment I don’t know how much longer I’ll be able to play guitar. Fortunately, I have a bunch of friends who can play guitar and help me out. Some of them are pretty good, too!” ”. I am glad to see that he had this opportunity and continues to play.
Oh absolutely! It's a joy getting to share the process with everyone here, & get feedback and ideas from others! Not entirely sure to what level I'll end up building them, or if they'll even be for me (give them to family etc.)
That performance with Frampton was an absolute blast! I wish everyone could have experienced it first hand. And despite seeing 12ish concerts that year, it was definitely an experience that was more worth the cost of travel & admission.
Frampton honestly should have been the Friday headliner, there was just so much passion, fun and energy from the crowd, that it felt weird when Jeff Beck was the final act.. :lol:
My dad recently got the 2 disc Blu-ray box for the 2019 Crossroads, as well as one or two older shows show that had about 3-4 hours of music, and it's super well done. I cant wait to see the full release that has closer to 8+ hours of content.. :thumb:
Glad to know I saw him twice within a month before his health and Covid became an issue.
But enough about me, enjoy those beautiful speakers, man!
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Years ago I took one of my Daughters to a concert she wanted to go to. Green Day played and they were really good. Their interaction with the audience was the best part. Then the headliner got up and it was walk-out time... Ugh! I guess that happens all over the place where someone does so well they steal the show.
When I get this system all working... (new blu-ray player in the box waiting to be hooked up... :roll:) I will need to invest in that box set of that concert. I generally enjoy live concerts recordings more that studio recordings, so that should fit right into my collection. Thanks for the heads up. :thumb:
And yes, back to listening to whatever strikes our fancy...
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@jonsk2514
I'm considering building these speakers and took a lot of information from your posts. But I have still two questions:
- Probably difficult to answer, do you have any idea on the impact of placing the port holes in the front baffle on the basses?
- I whatched a lot of reviews about GR Research speakers. And some reviewers advise to add servo subs. Do you share the same opinion? Or are these speakers offering good basses?
Thanks
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Generally speaking, front porting allows them to be placed closer to the front walls, since rear porting would add bass reflection off the front walls when they're placed more closely, and would lead to them sounding boomy. Adding socks or port plugs would reduce bass extension a little but would allow for a clean front baffle, and closer wall placement.
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@jonsk2514
I'm considering building these speakers and took a lot of information from your posts. But I have still two questions:
- Probably difficult to answer, do you have any idea on the impact of placing the port holes in the front baffle on the basses?
- I whatched a lot of reviews about GR Research speakers. And some reviewers advise to add servo subs. Do you share the same opinion? Or are these speakers offering good basses?
Thanks
I had the same questions when I was looking to build these. I corresponded with Danny about the placement of the port and I had read other posts about putting the port in the front. Danny said putting the port in the front would be ok, but might cause some huffing. My room is relatively small and I have these placed with the backs right up against the wall. This would pretty much block the port if it was in the back.
My experience so far has been great. I don’t have a side by side comparison to speakers with rear ports but these speakers far exceed my expectations. I believe the reason for putting the port in the back and placing the speakers 3 to 4 feet from from the wall behind them is to give great ambiance to the sound. This will be lost with the arrangement I have, but it is not something I notice. Actually, I find that these speakers “disappear” when they are playing, Maybe part of this is because I have rounded corners on the front baffle. That is something Danny talks about in his video reviews of commercial speakers he gets in for upgrading.
Bass response on these also far exceeds my expectations. Danny claims the design plays down to 40 Hz. I believe it. The bass is solid and full. At times I feel the base in the floor, which is carpeted, and this is play at comfortable listening levels (TV shows for example). They play down low enough to cover most music, even to catch the low notes Emerson, Lake and Palmer has been known to play. Bass in a really good jazz recording comes through really nicely. For that sort of listening I don’t feel the need to get a subwoofer.
Might I eventually get or make a subwoofer? Maybe. Right now I am just playing them in a 2 channel setup. Eventually, I plan to have a full blown home theater setup. Movie sound tracks have a channel that is specifically designed for a subwoofer and it might be worth it for that. But, I will wait on that until I have the center and rear channel speakers done and see how it sounds without the subwoofer, before I decide. Right now, my impression from having only listened to them in a 2 channel format is that they may be fine for home theater in my small room without a sub. I could see a larger room needing a sub, though.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks for the reply. This is exactly what I needed.
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:thumb:
I thought of your question last night when the sound track of a show I was watching had these shaking the floor again... I continue to be surprised and amazed by these... :green:
Build and enjoy!
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Ok, I promise not to inundate everyone with post after post of how great these speakers are, but they are great...
https://youtu.be/b9pRTx43Vn8
you can like or dislike Dave Matthews band, but this is a very good (incredible ?) recording at The Gorge and it shows how good these speakers are.
Every thing that is played show through and not as a single instrument. But as a band, with nothing missing as it is with other recordings. These are the most transparent speakers. The sound comes from the screen between the speakers and all around..
And I apologize to those following my X-LS/X-CS build. The X-MTMs are so good, I may have may have found these are so enjoyable that the others are falling behind. I do promise, though, these others will get done. It may mean cutting down on listening to the X-MTM.
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I am interested in the MTM's as a replacement for my Klipsch RP-280FA which are similar to the RP-8000F which are currently my Home Theater front 2 channels. For replacing my Klipsch RP-450C center channel, I am planning on getting the XLS Center kit.
Anyone think this is going to be enough SPL to replace the Klipsches?
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The X-MTM are rated at 91dB efficiency, I think the 8000f are little more efficient closer to 94dB, but i also know that Klipsch is known for overestimating the actual efficiency of their speakers.
The 8000F are stated as being 98dB, but the measurements say its closer to an average of 94dB with 98db only being the two peaks in the upper treble.. The modded version is closer to 92dB.
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I am interested in the MTM's as a replacement for my Klipsch RP-280FA which are similar to the RP-8000F which are currently my Home Theater front 2 channels. For replacing my Klipsch RP-450C center channel, I am planning on getting the XLS Center kit.
Anyone think this is going to be enough SPL to replace the Klipsches?
I think what Hobbsmeerkat said is likely to be most meaningful.
But from a subjective stand point I have found that, with the X-MTMs, their clarity, range and depth makes up for the need for higher volume levels. I definitely play them lower than the speakers they replace. So the likelihood is that you may be playing them at a lower volume level anyway, which would make up for any amount of SPL difference. Mine are in a modest size room and they will easily get to an uncomfortable sound levels if pushed...
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Everyone else was more tactful in their responses, I'll be more blunt. The Klipsch speakers simply are not on the same level as the GR Research speakers. And Klipsch does inflate their efficiency numbers, usually 2 or 3 db, sometimes more. GR Research does not. So real world efficiency between these 2 speakers is actually going to be very close. If you have the $$ to swap over to the GR Research speakers, it's a no brainer, they are flat-out better.
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I second this.
Better drivers, better cabinets, better crossovers.
I would take them over a pair of modded 8000F towers every day.
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I second this.
Better drivers, better cabinets, better crossovers.
I would take them over a pair of modded 8000F towers every day.
Awww Hobbs Danny will be so proud of you. I'd take the MTM's too. :thumb:
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I finally sold my RP-280FA and ordered the MTM + Centers. :)
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You won't be disappointed. I went from Klipsch (albeit older ones) to the same setup you just ordered and the performance jump was incredible. They are far more detailed and revealing without being shouty.
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.... They are far more detailed and revealing without being shouty.
Pretty much sums up the entire GR Research sound.
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:thumb: I already have a Encore bookshelf pair built in Baltic Birch Plywood. Really like the sound. Plus my non-audiophile family members gave their mark of approval :lol: