LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build

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Folsom

Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #60 on: 11 Sep 2015, 01:05 am »
Well, I did go to a guys house that had silver stands running in the air to his tweeters on top of the speakers, and his chair was up on something like a throne. Options... WAF loved, oh wait I think he lived alone.

mlundy57

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Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #61 on: 11 Sep 2015, 01:28 am »
Thanks everyone. I'm going to answer some questions first then I will get to my impressions.

This form factor really speaks to me. I'm not a big fan of the "penguin feet" but that's just personal preference. I'd prefer a base that replicated the shape of the bass module (just a bit larger) and visually mimicked the gap between the bass and mid/tweeter module. An automotive metallic deep red would be hot, too.  :wink:

How would the performance of the bass module change if it increased in height just enough to house the plate amp in the back of the middle section (or even bottom section)?

nrenter,

The paint I used was a water based acrylic for wood with a water based polyurethane topcoat, both made by General Finishes. Automotive paints and topcoats will increase the options but be prepared for the sticker shock. When I had the paint job quoted at a local auto body shop the price was $1,000 - $1,200 plus more for a pearl.

What is the tweeter heigh now with the  wedgie sitting on the new bass design ?

-jay


Jay,

As these stand, without floor spikes, the center of the tweeter is at 39 1/2". Floor spikes will add an additional 1 1/2" bringing the tweeter center to 41".  My ear height, kicked back in my recliner, is at 39" so for me the current height is about perfect.


Mike, what are you using between the Wedgie and the base?

Thanks,
Ed

Ed,

I am using Herbie's fat dots, specifically the Vonschweikert special (4 round and 1 square under each speaker). http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm



Would it really cause any problems to move the single sub foward/back and the other vice/versa, lengthening the cabinet a little bit and then moving the subs closer together? It seems like you could lower two inches really easily, maybe 3.

Folsom,

This cabinet is really tight. The braces between drivers butt up against the openings for both the driver above and the one below. So there is no way to move them any closer together. Also, if you look at the side with the two drivers, what looks like space above the top driver and below the bottom driver is actually the thickness of the top and bottom plates.  There is actually only about 1/8" clearance between the outer edge of the two drivers and the top and bottom of the side walls. Horizontally there is only about 1 1/2" clearance both front and rear. (Danny already beat me to this, sorry for the dual post)

Now for my impressions:

When I initially finished the bass units I set them up in the small room. I moved the H-frames out of the way and put the Wedge basses in their place with my Wedgies on top.  In this room the Wedge designed played deeper and with more authority than the H-frames but they also loaded the room a little more than the H-frames.

The H-frames started rolling off noticeably below 40Hz. They were audible at 30Hz but there was nothing at 20Hz.  If I stuck my ear inside the H-frame I could hear a 20Hz tone but outside the enclosure, nothing. The Wedge was solid at 30Hz and still audible in room at 20Hz, though significantly diminished.

On the other hand, the H-frames were more open sounding with no room loading where the Wedges did load the room a little. There was a little of that subwoofer chest thump with the Wedge basses. Not like a sealed or ported sub but enough to easily notice.

After I finished the new Wedgies, I set the whole system up in the larger living room (my wife is out of town until tomorrow night). I pulled them out until the center of the bass woofers was 3ft from the wall (back of cabinet 32” from the wall).

When I started playing the Wedges in this position I heard the same things I did upstairs. Also, the sound stage was much wider but more unfocused, almost like an echo but not quite and the chest thump from the bass was more pronounced.

If you look at the picture of the system setup you might see what was happening.




I thought all those doors behind the speakers provided a highly reflective surface which was causing the ehco/smearing I was hearing. Unfortunately, I do not have any sound absorption panels but I do have some moving blankets. I took four of the large blankets, folded each one in half to provide a double layer of heavy material and hung them up behind the speakers.




That did the trick. The sound stage cleaned up, focused and the echo/smearing went away. So did the chest thump from the bass units. Now they played deep, clean and open. The bass is still authoritative but it no longer loads the room. To me it seems like the best of both worlds, clean open baffle bass with just the tiniest hint of subwoofer thump and then only on extremely bass heavy tracks that were intended to have the thump such as the Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture when the cannons fire.  Deep musical bass is just that, deep and musical yet open and spacious.

Visually these units go together seamlessly. The foot print is small and compact but the sound is HUGE!!!  Danny’s description of this combination’s performance is right on the money.  In the H-frames the 8” drivers are a little disappointing but not in these cabinets. I’m going to hate to see them go. However, the first chance I get to build something for myself, it’s going to be a pair of these Wedge cabinets. 

Mike



 

Captainhemo

Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #62 on: 11 Sep 2015, 02:20 am »
Interesting  Mike, I didn't realize there was some disappointment with the triple 8's in an H-frame.  Glad to hear  that the new  U/Wedge frame  seems to have  taken care of it
I quite often hang a doubled up, thick quit over my TV  which seems to help.

That tweeter height  shuld be fine for pretty much anyone, the Neo 3 has very good off axis performance.  The OB7's  are 40" before  bases and spikes.

What effect does the wave guide have on off axis performance ?

jay

Folsom

Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #63 on: 11 Sep 2015, 02:39 am »
You don't get to keep them?

The things audiophile do when the wife isn't there...


mlundy57

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Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #64 on: 11 Sep 2015, 03:04 am »
Interesting  Mike, I didn't realize there was some disappointment with the triple 8's in an H-frame.  Glad to hear  that the new  U/Wedge frame  seems to have  taken care of it
I quite often hang a doubled up, thick quit over my TV  which seems to help.

That tweeter height  shuld be fine for pretty much anyone, the Neo 3 has very good off axis performance.  The OB7's  are 40" before  bases and spikes.

What effect does the wave guide have on off axis performance ?

jay

Jay,

Yes, in the H-frames the triple 8's are disappointing. Not from quality of sound but from lack of deep bass extension.  I doesn't matter which room they are in or how far I pull them from the wall (I have had them 5ft. out in the living room) they started rolling off sharply below 40Hz, about half volume at 30Hz and nothing at 20Hz. For over $1,400 in drivers and amps I was expecting audible bass down to 20Hz but didn't get it.  I was beginning to feel I had wasted my money on the 8's and should have gone with the 12's even though the H-frame would have been wider than I really wanted. But the Wedge design has the 8's performing as I hoped they would.

The off axis response is phenomenal. Imagine this setup: a large three seat sofa with the center being the "sweet spot". Now place two large arm chairs to each side of the sofa. Go sit in either of the two outside arm chairs. They still sound great.  How's that for off axis response?

Mike

You don't get to keep them?

The things audiophile do when the wife isn't there...


Nope. I built them for another AC member.

Yep, when the cat's away ....

Mike

Danny Richie

Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #65 on: 11 Sep 2015, 03:13 am »
Jay,

Yes, in the H-frames the triple 8's are disappointing. Not from quality of sound but from lack of deep bass extension.  I doesn't matter which room they are in or how far I pull them from the wall (I have had them 5ft. out in the living room) they started rolling off sharply below 40Hz, about half volume at 30Hz and nothing at 20Hz. For over $1,400 in drivers and amps I was expecting audible bass down to 20Hz but didn't get it.  I was beginning to feel I had wasted my money on the 8's and should have gone with the 12's even though the H-frame would have been wider than I really wanted. But the Wedge design has the 8's performing as I hoped they would.

The off axis response is phenomenal. Imagine this setup: a large three seat sofa with the center being the "sweet spot". Now place two large arm chairs to each side of the sofa. Go sit in either of the two outside arm chairs. They still sound great.  How's that for off axis response?

Mike

Nope. I built them for another AC member.

Yep, when the cat's away ....

Mike

Are you using the same amps with both setups?

The reason I ask is that the H frames will play to a -3db of 20Hz on the lowest setting. If yours is not then they might not have gotten the shelving circuit on your amps.

mlundy57

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Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #66 on: 11 Sep 2015, 03:37 am »
Danny,

Yes I am using the same amps. The amps for these new speakers were sent to the person I'm building them for instead of to me so I am using my amps to drive the wedges.

But even in the wedge cabinets they are not playing -3dB at 20Hz on low damping, more like -12dB. How can I tell if the shelving circuit was installed? 

Danny Richie

Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #67 on: 11 Sep 2015, 04:50 am »
Danny,

Yes I am using the same amps. The amps for these new speakers were sent to the person I'm building them for instead of to me so I am using my amps to drive the wedges.

But even in the wedge cabinets they are not playing -3dB at 20Hz on low damping, more like -12dB. How can I tell if the shelving circuit was installed?

The servo amp will add gain as needed to maintain a linear response down to whatever the extension filter setting is. The difference you are hearing then is in how they load the room, and with room gain. If you measure both with a near field driver measurement then they will measure the same.

mlundy57

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Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #68 on: 12 Sep 2015, 01:22 am »
I need to retract my criticism of the H-frame.

When I initially set them up, I set the damping to Low Music and that is where I thought it stayed. However, apparently at some point when turning the amps on and off I flipped the wrong switch. It turns out both amps have been playing on High damping for who knows how long. It's no wonder I didn't have the extreme low end.

After switching the damping back to Low Music, I got audible output at 20Hz from both the Wedge and the H-frame. To my ears the Wedge still outperforms the H-frame but not nearly as much. So from my perspective, the main advantages of the Wedge design are: (1) a little performance advantage in the 20-30Hz range (2) they look better paired with the Wedgies and (3) they weigh a lot less. The H-frames are about 100 pounds each while the Wedges are around 50-60 pounds. I haven't weighed the Wedges but I can pick one up and carry it up the stairs by myself so it can't weigh more 50 or 60 pounds.

Even if both performed identically, the Wedges would win out purely on looks and when it comes to WAF, looks will trump performance almost every time. Fortunately, with the Wedges you can have both at the same time.

My wife is home and watching TV so she is listening to the new speakers. What she doesn't know is I have turned the center channel speaker off. First, there is no way a $500 Klipsch center channel (I haven't had a chance to build an N3S yet) is a sonic match for the Wedges and second, the Wedges image so well and are so clean and clear a center channel is not needed to understand the dialog.

Mike

Captainhemo

Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #69 on: 12 Sep 2015, 03:00 am »
I was looking at those "compact amps" last night on the Rythmik site... do they have both  a damping setting as well as an extension setting  ?   I saw the  extension  switch (low/high) but did not see a damping setting ,I could easily be missing it.  With the A370 PEQ there  are both , extension   28/20/14  and damping high/med/low.   The damping  setting  can have quite an effect on low level output as well as the extension.

Do the wedges distrubute the bass  evenly  around the room  in a similar manner to the H-frames ? the room gain or loading makes me wonder   a bit

jay

mlundy57

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Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #70 on: 12 Sep 2015, 03:47 am »
Jay,

With the HX300's the extension and damping functions are combined into a single switch. With the A370's you choose a low end extension of 14/20/28Hz on one toggle switch and either low, medium, or high damping on another plus there is a separate rumble filter that can be turned on or off.

With the HX300 there is only one switch that combines these three functions. The three settings are low music, low-HT and high. Here is how Rythmik explains it on their website:

"Bass extension control

To simplify bass extension control, we have incorporated bass extension and rumble filter in one signle toggle switch. Low music setting is the most gradual roll-off (or low Q) we recommend to customers. For HT application or vinyl playback, we recommend to use LOW-HT setting which incorporates a 3rd order rumble filter. The high setting is recommended for application where highest SPL or prolonged playback time is needed. "

The Wedges do distribute the bass around the room and have the open baffle sound like the H-frames. They do not load the room like a boxed sub does. A fact I am being reminded of tonight.  Since I am having to use my HX300 amps to power the Wedge basses in the living room (my wife is back and is watching her shows in the living room) the H-frames in my system upstairs currently do not have any power. I have had to hook up a sealed subwoofer if I want any bass and I can really tell the difference.

My wife's opinion is that the music in her TV shows (streamed over Netfilx) is the best she has heard of any of the speakers I've had in her systems (she has N1X's in her out of town apartment and normally has N3TL's in this living room system). She says she doesn't think the dialog is any better but then she usually listens to center channel speakers for dialog.

Mike

mlundy57

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Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #71 on: 25 Sep 2015, 01:28 am »
Finally, they're done. I finished the amp boxes earlier this week. Here are some final pics. First the amp boxes:










Next some of the Wedgies:












Here's some of the Wedge Bass units:










And here they are all together:








It has taken 3 months but tomorrow I'll be delivering them to their new home in Fayetteville, AR

Mike

DeeJayBump

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Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #72 on: 25 Sep 2015, 01:54 am »
Those look awesome, congrats on the beautiful work.

New owner should be very pleased with not only the sound but also the finished product.

Captainhemo

Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #73 on: 25 Sep 2015, 02:02 am »
Nice job Mike,  they look great  :thumb:
I bet the new owner can hardly wait ....   :xmas:

jay

aldcoll

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Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #74 on: 25 Sep 2015, 02:11 am »
I have enjoyed this build thread immensely :thumb: :thumb:

I am trying to conceive a woofer stand for my Daedalus Pans.   My desired height would be about 20 inches and more of a square.  Any way some body in Arkansas will be a proud owner.

ebag4

Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #75 on: 25 Sep 2015, 02:22 am »
Beautiful job Mike.  The new owners are going to very happy!

Best,
Ed

Danny Richie

Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #76 on: 25 Sep 2015, 02:41 am »
Great work Mike.

mlundy57

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Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #77 on: 25 Sep 2015, 03:48 am »
Thanks everybody. I hope he likes them as well.


Keithh

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Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #78 on: 26 Sep 2015, 05:31 am »
Mike,
Does the No Rez make a difference? Just starting my Wedge Base build but didn't get any.
Have not read anybody saying if it is needed in the Wedge yet.

mlundy57

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Re: LGK Wedge and Bass Unit Build
« Reply #79 on: 26 Sep 2015, 09:00 pm »
Mike,
Does the No Rez make a difference? Just starting my Wedge Base build but didn't get any.
Have not read anybody saying if it is needed in the Wedge yet.

Keithh,

Not really sure. I have not listened to them without the NoRez. Danny said it wouldn't hurt so the decision was made to go ahead and put it in since it would be a lot easier to do while the speakers were here.

It took 1 sheet to put a piece behind each driver.

If you are building yours for yourself you can always add it later if you think it might help.

Mike