[jeffreybehr]

Did you find installing the large bass traps in the upper left-hand wall and upper rear wall to be worth the cost and effort?

Asking as I am strongly considering large bass traps.

Absolutely the height of the 30Hz bass node decreased greatly and the quality of the bass improved...that is, the sounds of, for instance, a string bass became more defined and less flabby.

If you know which end of a hammer to grab, you too can build your own bass traps; all they are are large chunks of fiberglas building insulation contained in some sort of structure and covered in acoustically transparent cloth.. Here's the rear one installed...


...and the west one installed.


In process:




One thing lots of us amateurs including myself haven't/hadn't thought about--if you don't want your trap(s) absorbing mid and high frequencies, you must cover the fiberglas facing the listening space with some kind of reflective plastic.. My room has plenty of exposed drywall, so absorbing those mids and highs was a goal..  Also, don't mount them ON the walls or ceilings; basstraps work much better spaced away from the hard surfaces.

[jeffreybehr]

I have already optimized everything I can think of to do to the servo-amps including wiring, isolation, and control adjustments. I am convinced the highest likely hood of bass improvement lies with either passive or active bass traps or EQ unit instead of the PEQ controls, which I find only slightly effective.

And as long as we are discussing improvements for the Super-7s the number one improvement I have made for the speakers is hands down installing Townshend Seismic Bars under the speakers. Better improvement than all the upgraded crossover components, rewiring the servo-amps, etc. that I have done.

WOW; at 2000 British Pounds for 4 bars, I'll continue to use my own inexpensive isolation pads.  https://www.analogueseduction.net/isolation/townshend-seismic-isolation-bars.html

[bernardo]

Actually it is 1000 British Pounds for 4 bars (2 bars per speaker). They are a bargain for what they bring to the table. They smoked the Gaia 1 feet I had under them.

[jeffreybehr]

So Wednesday I called Mark Sammut of Reno HiFi and left messages.. We finally talked Thursday, noonish, and I discovered that he and Reno HF are now in Phoenix.. I ordered two First Watt J2 poweramps, and Mark delivered them to my house that afternoon since mine is on his way home.. How's THAT for good service?

Here's the system with the J2s in and a bit cleaned up.   


Both amps are running in normal stereo but with only one channel per chassis being used..


Recall that each is rated at 25WPC into 8 and 13WPC into 4.. I'll be wiring the two channels in each amp in parallel; in that fashion, the 8-Ohm rating is still 25 Watts max. per chassis, but the 4-Ohm rating increases to 50 Watts per chassis...IIRC.

I'll soon be rewiring both into monoamps and making a few improvements (but not as many as in my first pair of these).. More later.

[jeffreybehr]

The First Watt J2s and the Super-7s, which hadn't been running for about 2 years, are still breaking in, and the system sounds better each day.

Found and ordered today a pair of Atma-Sphere M-60s, version III.3 with V-Caps and the power-supply boost.. Those pure-triode signal paths do indeed call to me. 

[Tyson]

The First Watt J2s and the Super-7s, which hadn't been running for about 2 years, are still breaking in, and the system sounds better each day.

Found and ordered today a pair of Atma-Sphere M-60s, version III.3 with V-Caps and the power-supply boost.. Those pure-triode signal paths do indeed call to me. 

Have you tried any 2a3 or 300b amps with your Super 7's?  I have and they are pretty magical (and go pretty loud, actually).

[jeffreybehr]

Have you tried any 2a3 or 300b amps with your Super 7's?  I have and they are pretty magical (and go pretty loud, actually).

Years ago I tried Coincident Frankenstein IIs (300B) and WAVAC 805s, but they bored me and I sold them.. (See my original post in this thread.) My best sounds from the S7s were from a pair of somewhat-improved Atma-Sphere M-60s and the larger MA-1s.. I guess that, for me, multiple triodes, NO output transformers, and S7s are VERY musical.. The new M-60s Mk.III.3 might get here this week.

[jeffreybehr]

Oh lord!  I'm now fantasizing about a pair of maybe-10-year-old monster-SET amps powered by FOUR 300Bs and rated at 50 or 60 Watts per chassis depending on output tubes!! They're Allnic A-6000s that cost something like $20K in early 2000s and are now rarely seen available used.. Here's some info on them.
https://www.audioresurgence.com/2021/10/allnic-audio-a-6000-review.html
http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/allnic/allnic_6.html

Further complicating my amp choices is that I have a pair of Sanders 10e hybrid e'stats on the way*.. Roger Sanders loves to see these driven with two of his 500WPC-into-8 stereo amps (totaling 2kW into eight), but I think he likes HIGH dynamic range lots more than I do.. I'll be starting with 60 WPC Atma-Spheres** on the panels and PS Audio M700s on the bass.. If the A-S 60s have enough power for the panels (I do NOT listen loudly), probably I'll buy the A-6000s in England if they're still around and sell the A-S 160s.   


* Shipped in 5 cartons via UPS, even with UPS notifying me that all-5 cartons would arrive yesterday the 23rd, only ONE arrived, a bass box.. OOPS has so far found 2 for Monday delivery, but WOW what shitty service!!!!!!!!
** I also have A-S M1s (140Watts into 8 or 4) here and may 'need' them for the 10es; if that happens, the Allnics won't be powerful enough.

[mkrawcz]

How about a pair of these? 
https://www.westernelectric.com/97a-monoblock-amplifiers

[jeffreybehr]

How about a pair of these? 
https://www.westernelectric.com/97a-monoblock-amplifiers

GREAT idea!!!!!! I could buy THREE pairs for my surround system!!!!!!!!!

And I thought the A-6000s were expensive!

[charmerci]

How about a pair of these? 
https://www.westernelectric.com/97a-monoblock-amplifiers

 

[jeffreybehr]

Getting ready to install the Sanders 10E hybrid-e'stats, some but not all of which has arrived.

Have moved the Atma-Sphere 60s and pads inwards, added outward new PS Audio M700s to drive 10E woofers, and placed dbx speaker-management system atop center stand.. Have a pair of excellent-sounding A-S M1s (140W. into 4 or eight) to use if the 60s lack power.

Prior Martin-Logan hybrid-e'stat centerchannel ('CC') speaker last week had begun ticking at me so removed it.. Will be trying a modest Polk Audio TSi Series CS10 CC speaker when it arrives.. Determined that the multichannel-MUSIC system sounds excellent being defined as having no CC speaker but that movie dialog without a centerchannel is too buried in the 2 front channels for me, so will use the Polk or some other CC speaker for movies and simply remove it from the pre/pro's setup each time I switch.. Takes about 15 seconds.. 

The A-S 60s are current models (Mk.III.3) and are still breaking in; they sound much better today than Saturday.

[jeffreybehr]

This is my first and last note about the Sanders 10E system in this thread.







Bought a pair of PS Audio M700s to drive the woofers; the Atma-Sphere M-60s are driving the panels very well.. The small black-fronted rectangle standing on the right-channel M700 is a maybe-40-year-old Audio Technology model 510 'power meter'.. Of course, it doesn't measure power at all, it senses Voltage and displays results in dB with '0' references of 25, 50, or 100 Watts into 4, 8, or 16 Ohms.. It's very quick responding and is useful for giving one a general idea of how much power the amps are delivering in real time.. The listening level required to get the LEDs up to zero and even to +3dB is unbearably loud, so those 'little' '60s have plenty of power for me.. (Roger Sanders recommends two of his 500WPC-into-8 amps to power this system, one driving the panels and one driving the woofers.)  The dbx speaker-management system, a DriveRack VENU360 model, comes programmed by Sanders for the system and is easy enough to use.

FWIW, the biggest sonic difference between the S7s and the 10Es is the latter's superior bottom-octave energy.. Early in the 20-hours-per-day burn-in, the system is listenable but a little harsh with orchestral violins and trumpets*.. Sanders recommends automated-then-adjusted frequency adjusting and, if the system is still a little bright, a slight treble-down shelf; haven't done those yet.

* and we have to understand that my ears have problematical HF response and that I wear hearingaids.

[wingsounds13]

Great to hear about the Sanders 10E.  I have lusted at those speakers for years,  being an aficionado of electrostats since the '80s.  My first set was Acoustat 1+1, followed by Martin-Logan CLS.  I still have both of those but they both need rebuilding.  I have extra panels for the Acoustats, but I fear that new panels for the CLS might be a tad expensive these days.  Of course the interface modules need rebuilding too...  If only I had money. 

J.P.

[jeffreybehr]

After many hours of adjusting, changing, etc., more than 150 hours of burn-in, and lots of listening by me and my Golden-eared friend, I decided that IF the 10Es are better than the S7s, it's by very little and sometimes the S7s are slightly better than the 10s, so the 10s are going back.

Oh well, it was worth the time and effort.. LOVE THOSE Super-7s!!!

[S Clark]

Thanks for this thread.  I've not heard the 10E's, but I'm very familiar with the S7.  I was at the RMAF when Danny introduced them, and they were clearly in the top 2-3 speakers at the show.  If the 10E's are better, wow...

[Tyson]

I heard the 10E's and thought they were very good (better than the Martin Logan stuff Sanders used to design for).  The only 2 drawbacks I saw were 1, a very narrow soundstage due to their flat panel design, and 2, the inability to run lower powered tube amps. 

[jeffreybehr]

The Sanders 10es are packed and ready to return to Sanders.


The S7s are back in the system in new positions, about 1-1/2 feet closer to the listener and about a foot closer together, and sounding excellent again.. I think the Atma-Sphere's V-Cap Teflon coupling caps still need some burn-in, but the amps still sound plenty good.. Here's what the backend looks like now..


I've ordered a wide, two-high stand for all this stuff (and more!), so don't have the amps on their granite pads or anything on the floor.

Am about to order a pair of Allnic A-6000 amps.. These are fairly rare--mine will be coming from England!--superb-sounding single-ended amps using four (!) 300Bs in parallel for 60 Watts per chassis if using a particular 300B or 50 Watts if not.. These come HIGHLY recommended by my audio guru.. Will be converting a couple unused 120V. branch circuits into a single 240V. line (see link below).. Also have a bunch of AudioQuest Fog Lifter cable lifters coming, which I'll use on powercords first instead of my 1- , 2-, and 3-high IKEA glass tealights I use now.. Have also ordered some different, inexpensive vibration-absorbing equipment feet; more later on those.

https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/21/213426.html

[dolsey01]

I heard the 10E's and thought they were very good (better than the Martin Logan stuff Sanders used to design for).  The only 2 drawbacks I saw were 1, a very narrow soundstage due to their flat panel design, and 2, the inability to run lower powered tube amps.

I hate to be that guy but    "I was trading e-mails with Roger Sanders, manufacturer of the Eros Mk.III electrostatic (ESL) loudspeakers, when it occurred to me to ask him about his name. I was struck that he had the same last name as Gayle Sanders, president of another American electrostatic speaker company, MartinLogan. Were they related? "No," replied Roger Sanders, "it's simply a coincidence that we have similar names. I've never even met him. "

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/819/index.html

Roger Sanders = Sanders Sound Systems (Previously Innersound)
Gayle (Martin) Sanders = Martin Logan
Ron (Logan) Sutherland = Martin Logan

[Tyson]

I hate to be that guy but    "I was trading e-mails with Roger Sanders, manufacturer of the Eros Mk.III electrostatic (ESL) loudspeakers, when it occurred to me to ask him about his name. I was struck that he had the same last name as Gayle Sanders, president of another American electrostatic speaker company, MartinLogan. Were they related? "No," replied Roger Sanders, "it's simply a coincidence that we have similar names. I've never even met him. "

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/819/index.html

Roger Sanders = Sanders Sound Systems (Previously Innersound)
Gayle (Martin) Sanders = Martin Logan
Ron (Logan) Sutherland = Martin Logan

Wow, I totally confused the 2.  Thanks for pointing that out.