[Bigfish]

Guys:

I have decided it is time to replace my wooden framed single pane windows with storms with vinyl replacement windows.  When I embarked on the quest I thought it would be rather straight forward but I have quickly learned that replacement windows is about as confusing as is audio.  There are numerous manufacturers, numerous options and everyone has the "best." 

Do any of you have any positive experiences and recommendations?

Ken

[Phil A]

Ken. I did my windows about, sliders and one french door a year ago August.  I went with all vinyl.  I had builder's double grade crap and was about 12 years old and probably would have to do it in several more years anyway so I figured might as well get the energy credit too.  I think I had 36 windows. 3 sliders and the french door.  I looked a few things and had prepared by going to a home show a couple of times a few years before and a friend's girlfriend who went to one of those shows took the plunge first a year or two before me.  So I had a guinea pug too.  I looked at stuff direct from a manufacturer and also from a local company (who did my friend's girlfriend's house) and I went with them as they have been in business literally almost a century and the prices were even a hair less than direct from the manufacturer (and they did not impress me by not returning a voice mail, E-Mail and I even took an hour ride to the factory showroom and left a message).  I wanted someone dependable.  I've noticed nice utility savings (off the top of my head, I'd guess 25-30%).  What are you looking for.  I have a two story grand room and the idiot builder put double hung windows up high (that you can't reach anyway to open unless you're about 14 feet tall as the room is 19 feet) and I had them replaced with picture windows and one picture window over the master bath tub I had a sliding window put in.  So are you just looking for regular double hung or something else?

[Phil A]

I went with BF Rich Vintage P-x6 windows - http://www.bfrich.com/elite.html

They have a coating kind with a Rain-X type performance (the windows in the two story grand room would not be fun to clean – I never cleaned the old ones in 12 years).

I believe the doors (sliders and French) are Jeld-wen.  I’d have to check.  The French door is finished with a no maintenance exterior.  I got them to throw in a screen from another local company that rolls away into side chambers during the winter and holds together at the center (spanning both halves of the French door although if I open it is usually just one side) of the French doors via magnets.

[django11]

Here is a link with terminology and some basic stuff on what makes up a modern window.  An easy read that sets you on the right track link

For energy efficiency depending on where you are you might want to get low-emissivity coatings and argon gas filled.  The low e tends to tint the glass a bit when it is sunny outside...

[NekoAudio]

To add another dimension to your matrix of choices you can also ask about the sound transmission coefficient. I went for windows that would minimize the transmission of sound into my home (the two panes are of different thicknesses).

[brj]

While I haven't acted on it, I had quotes from 7 different window companies late last year and did a ton of research.  From the beginning, I focused on fiberglass and composite windows, though I did have a few nicer vinyl windows quoted as well.  In the end, I steered away from them and decided that I'd stick with fiberglass or composite when I got to that point.  (I'm unwilling to pay for aluminum clad wood.)

There were two reasons that I excluded vinyl from consideration.  First, replacement vinyl windows take up much more of the glass area than almost any other type of window, with the most energy efficient models (gas filled triple pain) taking the most area of all.  Since I have many tall, narrow windows, this would visually look quite odd.  Second, and more importantly, from every report I had, even the "best" vinyl windows made with the highest quality vinyl and filled with expanding foam eventually start breaking seals due to the fact that the thermal expansion coefficients of vinyl and glass differ significantly.  Getting such seals repaired and the argon or other inert gas replaced is very expensive, if possible at all.  (Just shipping windows manufactured, filled and sealed near sea-level to my 6000+ ft elevation could cause seal problems.)

Regarding coatings, their benefit varies depending on where you are and the aspect of the window (North vs. South facing).  High end low-e coatings on a North facing windows add appreciable cost for relatively little benefit, as there isn't much direct sunlight to reflect.  Also, if you live in a Northern latitude where your biggest cost is heating instead of cooling, you may specifically want to avoid low-e coatings in order to improve the solar gain in Winter vs minimize solar gain in Summer.

Everyone's situation is different, so make sure you understand what works best in your environment and be aware of exactly what your trading in terms of cost, performance, durability and aesthetics.

Good luck!

[Bigfish]

Thanks Guys for the responses!

I have had two window "contractors - dealers" come to the home.  One took the time to roughly measure the windows and then took two hours making a presentation about the windows he represented.  Basically, the presentation compared a less expensive to a premieum model from the same window manufacturer.  The other contractor walked around the outside of the house and said I will send you a quote for Simonton 5500 Vinyl Windows which is what he did. 

Yes, I have a tendancy to over analyze major purchases but based on the two estimates I am looking at $8,000.00.  I would like to get this right!

Thanks again,

Ken

[bpape]

This is a very timely topic for me.  Just starting my research into different brands as well as ratings of installers etc.

[django11]

There were two reasons that I excluded vinyl from consideration.  First, replacement vinyl windows take up much more of the glass area than almost any other type of window, with the most energy efficient models (gas filled triple pain) taking the most area of all.  Since I have many tall, narrow windows, this would visually look quite odd.  Second, and more importantly, from every report I had, even the "best" vinyl windows made with the highest quality vinyl and filled with expanding foam eventually start breaking seals due to the fact that the thermal expansion coefficients of vinyl and glass differ significantly.  Getting such seals repaired and the argon or other inert gas replaced is very expensive, if possible at all.  (Just shipping windows manufactured, filled and sealed near sea-level to my 6000+ ft elevation could cause seal problems.)

This is a bit of a puzzle to me.  From what I understand the vinyl,wood, aluminum or fiberglass is the material the frame is made of.  The glazing, the thermos window part, is inserted into the frame.  The frame material will have no effect on whether or not the gases in the thermos escape.   There might be an effect on the seal between the thermos and the frame but the seal between the vinyl and the glass is some other material.  I do remodeling and have installed numerous vinyl windows over 25 years and have never had a single call back for any issue with them.

IMO the biggest reason to avoid vinyl windows is if you don't like the look. 

A quote from Fine Homebuilding magazine on low e:
"Enter low-E glass coatings, transparent metallic oxides that reflect up to 90% of long-wave heat energy, while passing shorter wave, visible light. In hot climates, they reflect the sun's long-wave heat energy while admitting visible light, thereby keeping the house cooler in the summer. And in cold climates, they reflect long-wave radiant heat back into the house, again while admitting visible light. This shorter wavelength visible light is absorbed by floors, walls and furniture. It reradiates from them as long-wave heat energy that the reflective, low-E coating keeps inside. Low-E coatings work best in heating climates when applied to the internal, or interpane, surface of the interior pane. Conversely, in cooling climates, low-E coatings work best applied to the interpane surface of the exterior pane.

Low-E coatings improve the insulating value of a window roughly as much as adding an additional pane of glass does. And combining low-E coatings with low-conductance gas fillings, such as argon or krypton, boosts energy efficiency by nearly 100% over clear glass. Argon and krypton are safe, inert gases, and they will leak from the window over time. Studies suggest a 10% loss over the course of 20 years, but that will reduce the U-value of the unit by only a few percent. The added cost for low-E coatings and low-conductance gas fillings is only about 5% of the window's overall cost. It's a no-brainer."

A link to the whole article

[doorman]

For many years, I ran my own contracting business, specializing in doors/ windows/commercial/hardware.
The above comment re: expanding foam etc. needs clarification.
A window unit consists basically of 3 components. the frame, or extrusion, the sealed unit(s), being the actual glazing, and the opening hardware, if any.
Think of the sealed units, or glazing in the context of  replacing a broken window.
Every manufacturer worth considering will have developed a simple, efficient method of replacing the sealed units in the event of breakage or failure of a particular unit.
This is a routine procedure, and performed countless times every day.
Make sure the windows you are considering conform to industry standards, and make your choice based on appearance, opening configuration & required thermal efficiency.
Happy Hunting!
Don

[django11]

I'll add another point that is often overlooked.  Depending on what the exterior of your house is made of, there are two different ways to install new windows.

 Generally houses here in Montreal are brick.  Window companies will typically remove the old windows but leave the almost 2 inch thick wooden frame which they will wrap with aluminum in a color to match the window.  Then they insert the window in the opening, fill the gap with insulation and  and hide the gap with molding on th inside and more flashing and caulk on the outside.  This method has the advantage of being quick and clean but you do lose 2x2 inches of width and height.

 When I install I measure for a window that goes brick to brick less a small gap.  I remove the wooden frame.  This results in a larger window.  And you able to insulate the cavities where the counterweights were located.   It is also messier as the inside moldings must be removed, replaced and refinished.  Sometimes old plaster walls will crack and a lot of debris tends to fall out as the old frame is removed.  I would say this technique is generally best used when you are remodeling the room anyway.  It is possible on other sidings than brick but not always.

[thunderbrick]

I worked in an old-fashioned lumberyard/home center for nearly a decade and sold Anderson, Pella and several other brands.  I am also a certified home energy auditor (pressure testing the house, identifying leaks, and determining the most cost-effective energy improvements). I've also worked on solar houses for the US Dept of Energy's Solar Decathlon, and rebuilt my 50-year-old ranch house myself.

Here are a few points:

Definitely get Low-E/argon glass, but the dealer's cost between Low-E coating and regular glass is fairly small, so don't pay an huge difference.  The glass will be tinted slightly whether the sun is out or not.

Are you going to get replacement windows installed in your old frames or tear out the entire window?  If you have air leakage around the old window frame, replacements won't solve that.

Replacements have to be custom made to fit your frames, but have the advantage of leaving you inside trim intact.  The down side is that your actual glass area will be smaller.   New construction windows (w/nailing flange) come in standard, off-the shelf sizes and have the potential to be cheaper, but you have finish out the interior.  If you get new construction windows you can eliminate water leaks and drafts using a special heavy rubber tape in a prescribed way to keep water from getting in.

Brands?  In vinyl, the best I've seen in the Missouri region are Certainteed, but that was nearly 10 years ago.  I'd say see the windows on display and go with the most robust version.

Clad wood?  Anderson is good but a little overpriced.  I've been really impressed by Quaker Windows out of Freeburg, Missouri.  Very good looking and solid; we've used them in three of our university's four solar houses.  Don't rule out a local or regional manufacturer.  I like dealing with local folks.  Pella is OK;  I had one of their sliding patio doors but parts are outrageous.
Jeldwen? Don't know about their windows, but they make a helluva architectural door.

For energy efficiency get casement windows.  They seal tighter when closed.

Do NOT listen to a salesman who won't be overseeing the work and will disappear when the contract is signed. If you balk at the price and he lowers the cost, walk away.  I am OK with negotiating, but the workers deserve decent pay for good work, and it pisses me off when a they change the price.  I feel like they are screwing me by quoting a high price then offering to come down. It's either worth the quoted price or it's not.

Triple-glazed?   A manufacturer told me that the high additional cost will bring you minimal savings, and replacing a broken pain is very expensive.  Unless you are north of Minnesota, don't do it.  Solving air leaks is a much better approach for less money.

Speaking of air leaks, I was shocked when I took the energy auditor training.  They said replacing windows is NOT the best value for the dollar.  I love my new windows and would do it again in a heartbeat, but solving air intrusion and insulation issues will give you a better ROI on your investments.  Some utilities will cover a big portion of the $500-$800 cost of a home energy audit, so that is a great first step.  Energy audits cover HVAC, mold prevention, comfort and other quality-of-life issues.  (DISCLAIMER:  I don't do audits)  Solve the engineering problems first, THEN install new windows and doors.

New windows will make your house quieter, definitely, BTW.  If you and a buddy do it yourselves, it's not rocket science, but RTFI!

As always, YMMV.

[JLM]

For our new build 6 years ago I picked Jeld-Wen (formerly known as "Norco") based on an extensive talk with a local distributor.  These are extruded aluminum wooden frames, argon filled/UV tinted double glazed windows.  Previously I'd bought Pella with the 13/16 inch air gap, removable inner gasketed pane, and internal blinds/pleated shades (but they've gotten quite expensive).  The Jeld-Wen were comparable to the poorer line of Pella, but cheaper (and poorer quality hardware).

Since I have allergies and we're not home much to open/close windows and we wanted a secured home we picked many fixed window units.  The rest are casement or awning styles (which seal better than double hung or sliders) and have been carefully located to maximize fresh air flow through the house.  I am very happy with them.  They don't transmit the cold here in Michigan and we can barely hear the howling winds (almost spooky to see things blowing by and you can't hear a thing).

But recently had two of the Jeld-Wen french doors develop a leak between frame and glazing during a driving rain storm.

For replacements vinyl or vinyl like is the way to go.  Look for air spaces (insulated or not) in the frames so that you have dead air between indoors and out.

[JLM]

Our new-build was done under the EPA Energy Star program.  We paid $500 for the testing/certification and for course all labor/materials for the entire house.  We got a piece of paper indicating a 5 star rating and the builder got $20,000 (which of course he didn't tell us about or share with us).  Frankly I don't believe the house performs any better than any average new house and the only thing special we used was "Insul-Tarp (R-11 flexible mat) under basement slab.

The EPA testing consisted of a rough-in inspection and a blower door test at the end.  When I questioned him on the lack luster performance we'd experienced he just shrugged his shoulders and left.

[thunderbrick]

JLM, I don't have an answer to that, unless he made an error.  I think the home energy audits are most productive for older homes, those that were built when energy was cheap, building codes were (are?) weak or non-existent, HVAC systems were inefficient, or in poorer areas.  Many of the homes we audited were referred to us by community aid organizations.  Elderly widows, the handicapped, the people that could least afford high energy costs.  Some of the houses we saw were simply energy sieves.  Small-dollar improvements, say $1,500 or less, could do a lot to help those folks.  I dare say most of us are not in that position, so we might look at it differently.

[rollo]

  Well specs to death. Overkill and so on. A storm window and insulated glass window is all ya need. Argon gas and all the add ons really mean zilcth. nice marketing idea but a waste of money. The storm / window combo is the most efficeint.
  A house creates gases from appliances and such. A window system that is to tight will not allow those gases from escaping. Another issue is condensation on the interior side. This is due to high humidity IN THE HOME. Not the windows fault.
 Do not get over sold. Stick with American made windows by a well known company. Storm windows as well. Stay away from triple glazing, Argon and the window of the century. Just do not need it. It's a gimmick. Retired Architect and Costr. Mgr.



charles

[thunderbrick]

I agree with "don't get oversold".  I respectfully disagree with the rest, Rollo.  We need to re-educate the architects, builders, real estate folks, inspectors and homeowners.  There can be a huge difference between the "price" of a house and the "cost" of a house (car, or tube preamp, for that matter  ), current economic circumstances not withstanding.

[JLM]

I'm in the middle ground on this.  While I'm a firm believer that a little forethought and effort (like caulk) can pay huge dividends, I scratch my head when houses are so tight the water heater can't breath.

I do wish more of the economic recovery money had gone to employ construction workers to tweak older homes for better performance, especially for the poor.  Just little things, like making sure water heaters aren't set excessively high or attics are properly insulated wouldn't cost a ton or take time to ramp up.  That's what I'd like to see the EPA home guys doing (actually saving money, not just talking about it).

[rollo]

  If anyone  aware that Congress did a study on condensation of windows. A major issue for may new window buyers.   It was concluded that interior humidity was the culprit. The solution crack a window open to release the humidity. No more condensation. BRILLIANT!!
  No question a better insulated home will save energy. Attic, crawl space are all well proven additions. For me nothing like a wood window with a storm or a vinyl replacement with a storm. The concept of triple glazing, argon and so on was to eliminate the  storm window. The cost of such outweighs the so called benifits. Nice try but still not as affective.  Looks is one thing performance another.
  Salesman are salesman. They work on comission. Sometimes a little common sense goes a long way.    BTW vent your boiler room and the hot water boiler as well .


charles
 

[Danberg]

Bigfish, 

Lots of excellent information in this thread.

Seeing that you live in Raleigh, NC your major concern will not be heat loss (low-E glass with argon), but heat gain through your windows.  Make sure that you get a "solar glazing" that cuts down on radiant heat that enters your home.  It WILL dramatically cut down your air conditioning costs (not to forget additional comfort in the home)!  Also, it should not add much additional cost to your project.  On a retail INSTALLED basis, your additional cost should be in the + 2% to 5% range.  As said earlier, mfgrs costs to dealers is ALWAYS within a 5% - 8% range for the windows alone (not including installation costs)  Don't be taken by as salesman that tells you differently.  Return on investment is excellent, less than 3 years, if you stay in that 2% to 5% installed cost.

Another area that was mentioned briefly, but I would strongly recommend looking into is if you need to have your existing wood window frames entirely removed back to the original "stud opening."   That will greatly effect the overall installation cost, but depending on the age and type of the existing original wood windows can be a major source of air infiltration, hence energy ineffeciency!  Typically, "replacement vinyl" windows do little if anything to address that.

The other question that no one has brought up, how long do you plan to stay in your home?  That should be a question that needs answering in regards to how much do you want to invest in this project!

My perspective comes having 30+ year career as a window mfgr representative (representing innumerable brands & types of windows, wood, wood alum clad, composite, vinyl, etc).  It can be very confusing when it comes to window replacement, as there is a lot of misinformation given by salespeople, attempting to sell you their product.