AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Captainhemo on 14 Sep 2018, 08:29 pm

Title: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 14 Sep 2018, 08:29 pm
Just letting  people  know that these are still in the works. been poking away at  a contoured base and discussing  composites.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184429)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184426)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184427)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184428)


jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Vedder323 on 14 Sep 2018, 09:22 pm
Tease!!!!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: ebag4 on 14 Sep 2018, 10:29 pm
Very cool Jay! Is there a technical reason the base needs to add that height?

Thanks,
Ed
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: SoCalWJS on 14 Sep 2018, 11:26 pm
 :o :o :o :o :o

 :thumb:
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 15 Sep 2018, 12:26 am
Very cool Jay! Is there a technical reason the base needs to add that height?

Thanks,
Ed

They do lift  the array up a  bit but not as much  as  you  may think.. those bases are only 5.5 "  tall..
Was really  just  trying to  keep them similarin  height to the  orignal pair but   "fit"  the   speaker  cabinet  a bit  better  IMHO  .     Each will  have to  be milled from a  solid  block of   composite.


jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Folsom on 15 Sep 2018, 01:30 am
Why not a simple T outrigger, and some spikes?

**I cannot visualize as well as CAd
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on 15 Sep 2018, 06:46 pm
Jay:
If you are concerned with baffle stiffness why not double up the thickness with a baffle sandwich.
Add a front panel, mirror image of your current design (minus the terminal cut outs) would leave a nice clean finished look.
Rubber sheet gasket in between the two layers and you may not need the slight driver recess.
Choose the gasket material correctly and you may not even need the 100 driver mounting screws. 
Twenty bolts from the backside  should hold the panels together and keep the that nice clean look.

Shawn











Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 16 Sep 2018, 12:22 am
All good on the baffle  ,  no worries

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 26 Nov 2018, 08:00 pm
Any updates on this one??
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 26 Nov 2018, 08:18 pm
A pair is inthe "que"  now

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 26 Nov 2018, 08:20 pm
Wow.  Drivers and cross over by Danny?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 26 Nov 2018, 08:35 pm
Yes, it'll be a  combination effort.  We'll finish the  cabinets up here and ship down to  Danny for final asembly before   heading out to their  new  home .

jay

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: SoCalWJS on 26 Nov 2018, 08:59 pm
 :popcorn:

Great to hear they're still moving forward. You mentioned "Composite" in the original post. Any decisions or details?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 26 Nov 2018, 09:56 pm
Yes, they will be a  composite, similar in density to  MDF (approx 75gr/cc). 
I sent  Danny  a sample Neo3/Neo10 baffle made  from a similar (not quite as dense)  product.


    Excellent machineability
    Low dust emission
    No shrinkage / Dimensionally Stable
    Low moisture absorption
    No grain
    Excellent surface finish

jay

 
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: ebag4 on 4 Jan 2019, 07:44 pm
Yes, it'll be a  combination effort.  We'll finish the  cabinets up here and ship down to  Danny for final asembly before   heading out to their  new  home .

jay

jay
Does this mean that the Line Force will not be sold as a DIY project but only as a complete speaker?

Thanks,
Ed
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 4 Jan 2019, 08:24 pm
hey Ed
No,  I think we'll offer the flat packs as well.  the composite is expensive as is machining those  bases... not to mention building  custom boxes/crates  for   each pair.   Still chaaper than the   aluminum  pair  Danny originally  had  cut.
Waiting onthe composite   for the first pair to be cut.. hopefully  soon

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: S Clark on 4 Jan 2019, 08:43 pm
This is pretty exciting news.  I'm one of the lucky few that got to hear those original prototypes, and holy momma are they incredible.  I thought that the Serenity 7's had a slight edge on my LS9's years ago, but the with those all BG drivers in the prototype there was really no comparison.  The were just sooooo fast.  And they were helped along by a gaggle of servo subs.   
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: ebag4 on 4 Jan 2019, 09:56 pm
hey Ed
No,  I think we'll offer the flat packs as well.  the composite is expensive as is machining those  bases... not to mention building  custom boxes/crates  for   each pair.   Still chaaper than the   aluminum  pair  Danny originally  had  cut.
Waiting onthe composite   for the first pair to be cut.. hopefully  soon

jay

Thanks Jay.  I am toying with the idea of going with the Super-7 then possibly upgrading to the LF, but reusing the drivers purchased for the Super-7.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 23 Jan 2019, 04:39 am
Hey Jay.  Any updates on these babies?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 23 Jan 2019, 05:18 am
Yup,  composite is in for  the  first pair  as wellas some stock for a  2nd pair,  hopefully cutting that  first pair     next  week .
I know it's ben slow but the compostie took longer  than expected  to  arrive.   hopefully things progress quickly  now

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 23 Jan 2019, 05:23 am
What does Danny have to say about the material ? Is it a good replacement for aluminum?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 23 Jan 2019, 05:55 am
I  wouldn't have gone with  it  without   having him   check it out.  Sent him a sample baffle  ages ago.

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 24 Jan 2019, 05:57 am
And what does he say?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Jan 2019, 04:09 pm
And what does he say?

I think the composite material is going to work out really well. It appears to be very strong and it is much less expensive than sheets of Aluminum.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 25 Jan 2019, 01:04 am
Do you anticipate any issues with shape retention considering how tall they are ?  Do you recommend any type of external bracing!!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: ebag4 on 25 Jan 2019, 01:10 am
Will the material take a finish or is it more along the line of a corian type material?

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 25 Jan 2019, 02:15 am
No problem  anticipated with shape/stability etc.  When  this stuff is bonded, it becomes one solid piece and the seam will never  show once it's been sanded smooth.
Yes,  it can be primed/painted  etc.
You can even throw it in the  tub and give it a bath if you  like, it won't  change shape

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 3 Feb 2019, 01:36 am

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=189916)

more soon

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Peter J on 3 Feb 2019, 05:39 pm

You can even throw it in the  tub and give it a bath if you  like, it won't  change shape

jay


That's good to know. I can't tell you the times I've wished for such. Will it be dishwasher safe?





Kidding aside, this is really looking to be something special!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 3 Feb 2019, 06:22 pm
LOL,  you  bet  Peter, just need a  big dishwasher  !!

They will be cool

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: AKLegal on 4 Feb 2019, 12:19 am
Man if I had the space (and funds lol) for a pair of these and a pair of H-Frame towers.  Alas, I'll just slum it with a pair of Super 7s.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 4 Feb 2019, 12:29 am
Glad to see these coming back!   :D
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 9 Feb 2019, 06:01 pm
Here are a  couple updated pics.

A few drivers in a small  MDF test baffle we cut.  Full baffles and wings to be cut next  week.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190206)

Finished base
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190207)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190208)

The 5 bolt holes in each base are counter bored from underside  so bolts will be out of sight
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190209)

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Tyson on 9 Feb 2019, 08:01 pm
Should be the only speaker around that convincingly outclasses the Super 7s.  Me jealous!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: S Clark on 9 Feb 2019, 08:15 pm
Should be the only speaker around that convincingly outclasses the Super 7s.  Me jealous!
Don't listen to a pair!!!  I was perfectly happy with my LS9s until I heard those prototypes.  And the LS9's, when installed well, are comparable to the Super7s (different, some ways better, some worse).  But those Super LS speakers... I never heard anything at a RMAF that were close.  High end Wilson or TADs?  Not comparable.   
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 9 Feb 2019, 08:54 pm
To late for me!!!   :o
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: nickd on 10 Feb 2019, 04:58 am
Suppose I should start saving now. After I heard the Epiphany 20/21 in my room, I knew line source was in a different league than point source. Couldn’t balance the big LS 9’s in there though. Just too much bass for my room.

These should really be stunning. Time to sell the BG FS420’s. 
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: pk on 10 Feb 2019, 11:43 am
Hi Captainhemo,

Those Line Force speakers look very interesting indeed! Could you please say a bit more about these?
* How far down in frequency are they working?
* Sensitivity?

Thanks! Best regards
Peter


Just letting  people  know that these are still in the works. been poking away at  a contoured base and discussing  composites.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184429)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184426)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184427)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184428)


jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Feb 2019, 02:36 pm
Hi Captainhemo,

Those Line Force speakers look very interesting indeed! Could you please say a bit more about these?
* How far down in frequency are they working?
* Sensitivity?

Thanks! Best regards
Peter

These cross to the servo subs at 180Hz. And sensitivity is 98db.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: pk on 10 Feb 2019, 04:13 pm
Hi Danny,

Thanks a lot!

Best regards
Peter

These cross to the servo subs at 180Hz. And sensitivity is 98db.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: 2bigears on 10 Feb 2019, 05:43 pm
 :D all these "super" creations are pulling at my not so 'super' bank account .  I'll be super broke , super hungry and of course SUPER COLD here in Canada,,,,ha. 
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Angaria on 10 Feb 2019, 10:23 pm
Since many are drooling over these, curious how many preorders would be needed to get a bulk shipment of neo3's... would that be on the order of a thousand (tweeters) of them or 10k?  Maybe customs hassle just aren't worth it.

seems there is a place called audiopur making them available in bulk - not sure if they're knockoffs, or licensed.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Feb 2019, 12:40 am
Since many are drooling over these, curious how many preorders would be needed to get a bulk shipment of neo3's... would that be on the order of a thousand (tweeters) of them or 10k?  Maybe customs hassle just aren't worth it.

seems there is a place called audiopur making them available in bulk - not sure if they're knockoffs, or licensed.

Our Neo 3's are very unique. The design doesn't really work without them.

And I can send them to you in bulk. I had 1,000 of them made.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 26 Feb 2019, 08:41 pm
this first pair come out really  nice.  time to get them off to paint

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191228)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191229)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191230)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191231)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191232)


jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 26 Feb 2019, 08:48 pm
Looks great Jay!   :D
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: ebag4 on 27 Feb 2019, 12:42 am
Wow, those look great Jay  :thumb:!

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Tyson on 27 Feb 2019, 12:43 am
Man, they just dwarf the NX-Ottica. 
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: grimace on 27 Feb 2019, 12:46 am
Man, they just dwarf the NX-Ottica.

Yeah, I feel bad for them...you should probably find them a new home down here in North Carolina  :D
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Feb 2019, 01:00 am
Yeah, I feel bad for them...you should probably find them a new home down here in North Carolina  :D

I'll let  you  know if the  current  interested  person doesn't  pull the trigger  on  the  Otica's.
Those  Line force's unfortunately aren't  staying  either, they are a preordered  pair

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 27 Feb 2019, 02:58 am
Nice.  Capt will you be putting them together ?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Feb 2019, 03:51 am
No 
Tset  will be  painted then crated and shipped off to Danny for    final assembly,  no point  shipping  everything  up here then back down    again for the customer.  Won't  even get  to hear  them  :(

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 27 Feb 2019, 04:02 am
Wanted to know more about how they sounded with pair of OB servo subs.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 27 Feb 2019, 04:11 am
The original Line Force speakers at Danny's had two 3x12" OB servo subs.

Amazing is the only term I can use after hearing them almost 4 years ago.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 27 Feb 2019, 04:16 am
2x3x12 would be awesome for sure.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 27 Feb 2019, 05:50 am
this first pair come out really  nice.  time to get them off to paint

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191228)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191229)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191230)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191231)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191232)


jay
Stunning CNC work!  I’ve been following all of this along with the rest of your products.  Having gotten a pair of the Wedgies (which were flawless in manufacture and fitment) was a physical game changer for me...  I get older... sigh...

I am in awe of you two in having the balls to bring unbelievably high quality kits to a bunch of hackers like most of us are!!!    :wave:

Once again:  you guys rock!  Jay... thank you.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: studley on 27 Feb 2019, 09:11 am
hey Ed
No,  I think we'll offer the flat packs as well.  the composite is expensive as is machining those  bases... not to mention building  custom boxes/crates  for   each pair.   Still chaaper than the   aluminum  pair  Danny originally  had  cut.
Waiting onthe composite   for the first pair to be cut.. hopefully  soon

jay
Is it still the plan to offer these as flat packs?  Presumably with the right adhesive it would be fairly straightforward to fix the wing to the baffle and then glue those to the base?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Feb 2019, 05:37 pm
Wanted to know more about how they sounded with pair of OB servo subs.

that's  what  they were  designed to be paired with  :thumb:



Stunning CNC work!  I’ve been following all of this along with the rest of your products.  Having gotten a pair of the Wedgies (which were flawless in manufacture and fitment) was a physical game changer for me...  I get older... sigh...

I am in awe of you two in having the balls to bring unbelievably high quality kits to a bunch of hackers like most of us are!!!    :wave:

Once again:  you guys rock!  Jay... thank you.
Thanks   Wade,  your comments  are much  appreciated. Quite a bit of time and effort  goes into  most of these  kits.


Is it still the plan to offer these as flat packs?  Presumably with the right adhesive it would be fairly straightforward to fix the wing to the baffle and then glue those to the base?

Yes, flat packs are available but   there is lead time, especially if we need to order the composite.   It's expensive and   can't   stock a ton of  it.  The good part is   all the   modeling, programming, test cuts  etc  are  out of the way, so it's just  amtter of  getting the  material and cuttinf.
Yes,  a special adhesive  is required, we  are working on  packaging small quantities  with  each  kit.  Only one  joing,  wing to  baffle.   After that,   there are 5 (2 in baffle, 3 in wing)  M8x1.25x60mm  threaded holes that align with  counter-bored  holes (no  golts will be visible)  in the bases.   so,  5 M8x1.25  x60-70mm   per speaker (included) secure the  speaker to the base.

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: grimace on 27 Feb 2019, 06:30 pm
I'll let  you  know if the  current  interested  person doesn't  pull the trigger  on  the  Otica's.
Those  Line force's unfortunately aren't  staying  either, they are a preordered  pair

jay

Thank you Jay - let me know.  And, the lines on the new Line Force look really, really nice!  Good work man.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mlundy57 on 27 Feb 2019, 06:43 pm
that's  what  they were  designed to be paired with  :thumb:


Thanks   Wade,  your comments  are much  appreciated. Quite a bit of time and effort  goes into  most of these  kits.


Yes, flat packs are available but   there is lead time, especially if we need to order the composite.   It's expensive and   can't   stock a ton of  it.  The good part is   all the   modeling, programming, test cuts  etc  are  out of the way, so it's just  amtter of  getting the  material and cuttinf.
Yes,  a special adhesive  is required, we  are working on  packaging small quantities  with  each  kit.  Only one  joing,  wing to  baffle.   After that,   there are 5 (2 in baffle, 3 in wing)  M8x1.25x60mm  threaded holes that align with  counter-bored  holes (no  golts will be visible)  in the bases.   so,  5 M8x1.25  x60-70mm   per speaker (included) secure the  speaker to the base.

jay

Jay,

What’s the price on the flatpack?

Mike
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Feb 2019, 06:49 pm
Thank you Jay - let me know.  And, the lines on the new Line Force look really, really nice!  Good work man.

You got it, I think  he's planning  on coming up to audition  on the 12th or so.
Wish my camera skills were better... a lot of attention to detail went intothese.  All exposed  edges have  tight , clean  1/8 radius (inluding all edges on the base).   Rear side of bbaffle  has   large radius's on all  driver  cutouts, all screw holes pre-drilled  etc  etc.  they  look better in person

Jay,

What’s the price on the flatpack?

Mike

Total price  with all  drivers and  networks  should be around  10-11k.
If you  want the flat packs  on their own,  $4500 which  a  a signifigant  reduction from the original aluminum   pair.
jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mlundy57 on 27 Feb 2019, 09:06 pm
Jay,

Thanks. Looks like I need to start feeding the piggy bank.

What is the footprint of the bade (L x W)?

Mike
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Feb 2019, 11:36 pm
I'm  in  the same  boat  man.  It's hard looking  at these  things  knowing I'm  not  going  to get  to   fire them  up.
Approx 24x24,  no  more than  that,  just  a bit  less actually but remember,   it's just  the tips of the legs  that  reach  out  like that, a sub could easily be positioned  a bit closer if you  arranged it so it fint into the open   area of  the base.   the tips of the legs  are only  about  6"   out from   either  side of the cabinet.

jay
Title: Lobing
Post by: studley on 3 Mar 2019, 11:51 am
When it comes to speaker design the received wisdom is that you shouldn’t put two drivers next to one another in the horizontal plane because of the inevitable lobing problem and the adverse effect on the off-axis response.  The Line Force does obviously have drivers next to one another horizontally so i’m interested to hear what Danny has to say about this.  Please note that this is not an attempt to trash this speaker- it is a perfectly reasonable question given that lobing is a well established problem and so I am genuinely interested in Danny’s response.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: nickd on 3 Mar 2019, 04:54 pm
While I’m sure Danny can get technical on lobing and it’s related line source theory.

One thing I know for sure. “Received wisdom” has created a lot of poor sounding loudspeakers over the years.
There has to be open minded experimentations for a design to reach new levels of realism. I learned that 35 years ago. I was listening to systems that the reviews said should be poor because of mesurements etc.

It was only true some of the time. Tubes sounded good even though I was supposed to hate them because of noise and distortion. Old school paper drivers generally sounded better than polypropylene despite the high tech marketing.

First time I heard the Ephipany 21/21 in my room, I knew I had been lied to by people who had never heard a good line source design. The resolution and imaging has yet to be surpassed in my room. They were just HUGE, and needed really good subs to hit their potential.

Not sure about the math or measurements, but trust your ears and always reserve judgement until you hear a new design.

I just discovered horns a few years ago because I heard some bad ones and believed the bad press that was generated by poor designs. I have new respect for them after actually owning a few pairs of good horn loaded designs now. Like live microphone feed in my room. Hard to get that from regular cones.

Wouldn’t have believed it until I heard it for myself.
Worth a plane ticket to RMAF and other opportunities to hear some of this exotic gear in person.  :D
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: studley on 3 Mar 2019, 05:28 pm
While I’m sure Danny can get technical on lobing and it’s related line source theory.

One thing I know for sure. “Received wisdom” has created a lot of poor sounding loudspeakers over the years.
There has to be open minded experimentations for a design to reach new levels of realism. I learned that 35 years ago. I was listening to systems that the reviews said should be poor because of mesurements etc.

It was only true some of the time. Tubes sounded good even though I was supposed to hate them because of noise and distortion. Old school paper drivers generally sounded better than polypropylene despite the high tech marketing.

First time I heard the Ephipany 21/21 in my room, I knew I had been lied to by people who had never heard a good line source design. The resolution and imaging has yet to be surpassed in my room. They were just HUGE, and needed really good subs to hit their potential.

Not sure about the math or measurements, but trust your ears and always reserve judgement until you hear a new design.

I just discovered horns a few years ago because I heard some bad ones and believed the bad press that was generated by poor designs. I have new respect for them after actually owning a few pairs of good horn loaded designs now. Like live microphone feed in my room. Hard to get that from regular cones.

Wouldn’t have believed it until I heard it for myself.
Worth a plane ticket to RMAF and other opportunities to hear some of this exotic gear in person.  :D
I will never have an opportunity to hear these speakers before deciding to buy them.

It’s a scientific fact that lobing messes with the off axis response and any competent speaker designer knows that - The MTM configuration is used by many because it is an effective way of combating it.   Why is the off axis response important?  The answer is in Toole’s book.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: david45 on 3 Mar 2019, 06:35 pm
I will never have an opportunity to hear these speakers before deciding to buy them.

It’s a scientific fact that lobing messes with the off axis response and any competent speaker designer knows that - The MTM configuration is used by many because it is an effective way of combating it.   Why is the off axis response important?  The answer is in Toole’s book.

Don't you worry, Danny is going to have a detailed answer for you. If there's one thing I've learned he cares about as opposed to many manufacturers, it's the off axis response. And the list goes on....  8)
Title: Re: Lobing
Post by: MHL on 3 Mar 2019, 06:47 pm
When it comes to speaker design the received wisdom is that you shouldn’t put two drivers next to one another in the horizontal plane because of the inevitable lobing problem and the adverse effect on the off-axis response.  The Line Force does obviously have drivers next to one another horizontally so i’m interested to hear what Danny has to say about this.  Please note that this is not an attempt to trash this speaker- it is a perfectly reasonable question given that lobing is a well established problem and so I am genuinely interested in Danny’s response.

The Holy Grail for many is the Infinity IRS.  That has been a standard of greatness for over 30 plus years.  It has a similar driver arrangement.  I have never heard any serious disparagement against it before.
Title: Re: Lobing
Post by: gab on 3 Mar 2019, 07:17 pm
When it comes to speaker design the received wisdom is that you shouldn’t put two drivers next to one another in the horizontal plane because of the inevitable lobing problem and the adverse effect on the off-axis response.  The Line Force does obviously have drivers next to one another horizontally so i’m interested to hear what Danny has to say about this.  Please note that this is not an attempt to trash this speaker- it is a perfectly reasonable question given that lobing is a well established problem and so I am genuinely interested in Danny’s response.

Not Danny but while we await his response, read this if you haven't already

https://audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf




Title: Re: Lobing
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Mar 2019, 09:12 pm
When it comes to speaker design the received wisdom is that you shouldn’t put two drivers next to one another in the horizontal plane because of the inevitable lobing problem and the adverse effect on the off-axis response.  The Line Force does obviously have drivers next to one another horizontally so i’m interested to hear what Danny has to say about this.  Please note that this is not an attempt to trash this speaker- it is a perfectly reasonable question given that lobing is a well established problem and so I am genuinely interested in Danny’s response.

Yes, this is a problem with a lot of line source designs, but not with mine.

The problem is that as you move left or right there is a time delay that changes between the two lines. One is delayed in time verses the other. And when one starts arriving with enough phase rotation then it starts cancelling the output and leaving a hole in the response. And a 180 degree phase rotation equals a 15db dip in the response and very uneven room responses.

The amount of cancellation per degree of off axis is easily a product of two things. It depends on the acoustic center spacing and crossover point. The greater the distance of the acoustic centers or the higher the crossover point the greater the problem.

So a typical 6.5" woofer to a line or ribbons will have an acoustic center spacing of about 7" and a crossover point in the 2.5kHz range. This will cause out of phase cancellations that can easily get sever. And if you don't know how to shift the phase using the filter design you can get a much deeper hole on one side than the other. Or you can get a pretty good dip in both directions.

And a 2.5kHz wavelength is about 5.5".

But as the crossover points drop much lower it becomes much less of an issue.   

A 1kHz crossover point as used in our LS-6 line source was a wavelength of about 13". And the acoustic center spacing is 5.5".

Here are the off axis measurements. Red is on axis and each color going from red, to orange, to yellow, to green, and blue represent another 10 degrees off axis. This one is towards the tweeter side.

(http://www.gr-research.com/pics/off%20axis%20towards%20the%20tweeters.jpg)

And towards the woofer side.

(http://www.gr-research.com/pics/off%20axis%20towards%20the%20woofers.jpg)

In this direction we are barely seeing a slight dip in the 1.5kHz range. Not bad at all though. It's really good actually.

And with the Serenity Line force design the acoustic centers are only 4" apart. So the off axis cancellation becomes even less of an issue.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Mar 2019, 09:23 pm
And I always look at off axis measurements and how speakers load the room. I didn't save the ones for the Line Forces in a file that I have here, but they looked really good.

By the way, here is a link showing how I measure. http://www.stereomojo.com/Small%20Speaker%20Shootout%202007/StereomojoSmallSpeakerShootout2007Measurements.htm

It is interesting to look at all the speakers in the shoot out and their off axis measurements, especially the vertical off axis measurements. And not surprisingly the speaker with the best off axis measurements was also the speaker with the most preferred sound.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Mar 2019, 10:00 pm
I will never have an opportunity to hear these speakers before deciding to buy them.

It’s a scientific fact that lobing messes with the off axis response and any competent speaker designer knows that - The MTM configuration is used by many because it is an effective way of combating it.   Why is the off axis response important?  The answer is in Toole’s book.

By the way, the MTM configuration doesn't really combat the cancellation in the vertical off axis. It just makes it the same in both directions.  Check out the measurements of the speakers that I posted a link to. Go to page two. One speaker was an MTM configuration, but it used a high crossover point. So check out what that did to the vertical off axis response.

Then compare that to the very next speaker below.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Skiman on 4 Mar 2019, 03:00 am
Danny's LS9 crossover is at an even lower 850 Hz.

And I'm still enjoying them.
Title: Re: Lobing
Post by: studley on 6 Mar 2019, 02:10 pm
Not Danny but while we await his response, read this if you haven't already

https://audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf

Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: studley on 6 Mar 2019, 02:13 pm
Thanks for that Danny.  What is the crossover frequency BTW on the Line Force?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 6 Mar 2019, 04:43 pm
Thanks for that Danny.  What is the crossover frequency BTW on the Line Force?

It is at about 1.8kHz using a very low order slope.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: nrenter on 10 Apr 2019, 12:18 am
I'm dying to see progress on these bad boys!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 10 Apr 2019, 06:57 pm
I'm dying to see progress on these bad boys!

I posted a  few pics of the  composite  cabs on the previous  page.
They are  at the painters  ,  we've been in discussion with the customer about color and   he's got a  paint chip on the way so   should be  sprayed  soon. 
Will post  some pics  once we  have them back

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: RonP on 9 May 2019, 10:48 pm
Question:

I've noticed the Neo3 being used in other builds of Danny's, but it's normally just one. Why so many in this configuration? Will having that many Neo3's overpower the treble?

thanks
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 May 2019, 03:08 am
Question:

I've noticed the Neo3 being used in other builds of Danny's, but it's normally just one. Why so many in this configuration? Will having that many Neo3's overpower the treble?

thanks

This is a true line source design. So the driver arrays are equal length. It has several advantages and it does not make the treble louder. The output is very balanced.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 22 May 2019, 06:22 am
Was this pair completed/painted and fired up?  Results?  New pixs?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 May 2019, 02:25 pm
I think Jay has a pair in paint right now.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 22 May 2019, 02:51 pm
We  had an issue  getting   the paint color the customer  wanted.  In the end, he sent us up an actual paint chip so we've  now  got it color matched. Spraying should happen   very soon. We are now waiting for our painter as he recently had a  medical  procedure done.   Cabs have been sitting in his shop primed and waiting for a  while now......  soon !!

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Rivalaudio on 22 May 2019, 07:10 pm
We  had an issue  getting   the paint color the customer  wanted.  In the end, he sent us up an actual paint chip so we've  now  got it color matched. Spraying should happen   very soon. We are now waiting for our painter as he recently had a  medical  procedure done.   Cabs have been sitting in his shop primed and waiting for a  while now......  soon !!

jay

Whats the price range on painting those up?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 23 May 2019, 02:36 am
Totall :(y depends on wha  the customer  wants.
Our lacqar guy  is retty good but he is limited to  basic colors with a choice of shjeen but, no metallics  etc.

We also use a  guy who sprays exclusively  House of Kolor products but they add up fast  and  most  are  translucent so  multiple layers  are needed to get the desired deffect.
You probably saw these but here's a pic of  the  Super 7's  we recenly built, they are    done in House of Kolor  tangerine Kandy...  so  multiple layers of  primer/sealer  and block sanding , a base coat,  5 coats of  tangerine Kandy, then  2 coats of  the  HOK  Show Clear.  Material cost alone is up there but man,  the   paint is pretty  killer..
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194774)

Wish pics  would show the depth.
  Lacqar guy did the  satin black bases.


jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 24 May 2019, 06:37 pm
Base coats done.   A quick  block sanding  before   final color coats and  clear.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194833)

Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: RonP on 24 May 2019, 10:32 pm
Hey stupid question.. I am full of stupid questions....  :lol:

You know how the NX-Otica come in another model called the NX-treme where it adds more drivers up top... Does the Super LS come in a smaller model? Like say 2/3rds the drivers?

Is that a thing? doable? You'd get most of the bang for a lower cost and a physically smaller unit. That's my thinking at least.



Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: SoCalWJS on 24 May 2019, 10:36 pm
Those are going to look (and sound) INCREDIBLE!

Beautiful work there Jay!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 May 2019, 12:29 am
Hey stupid question.. I am full of stupid questions....  :lol:

You know how the NX-Otica come in another model called the NX-treme where it adds more drivers up top... Does the Super LS come in a smaller model? Like say 2/3rds the drivers?

Is that a thing? doable? You'd get most of the bang for a lower cost and a physically smaller unit. That's my thinking at least.

That is about as short as it can be and still function as a line source.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Ric Schultz on 25 May 2019, 01:26 am
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=icm8ojuu9fpe4n6k814jpbektdcpnkv5&topic=142235.0

He still LOVES his shorter version.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: nrenter on 25 May 2019, 09:21 pm
Jay / Danny,

When you sell a set of these, do you include a set of padded shipping crates (or are those even a separate option)?

Given my space, I'm more than happy with my current speakers. However, it's easy to visit House of Kolor (https://www.houseofkolor.com/kolors/) and dream / lust.

(Nevermind...this was answered earlier in this thread)
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 11 Jun 2019, 01:33 am
Haven't seen  them in person yet, only   some pics. These are  going to be in a  theater orom so they are top coated with   flat  lacqar to keep reflections down.,  Matching  Super7 monitor and a dual h-frame   for a center channel.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195444)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195445)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195446)

Note,  the customer will be lying the   dual h-frame on it's side to keep the  tweeter  down to ear level for those inthe   theater.   He also has a  pair of triple h-frames  to mate with the  Line forces  :thumb:
jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 11 Jun 2019, 03:14 am
Jay,
Very nice!   :D
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: ntjetsmoke on 11 Jun 2019, 11:04 am
Looking good, Jay, I bet they sound better than they look!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: PDR on 11 Jun 2019, 04:28 pm
OUTSTANDING!!!....... :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: RonP on 11 Jun 2019, 07:12 pm
Jay,

 I just realized you don't have my address for shipping... I'll PM you  :lol:

Kidding of course... Those look amazing.. can't wait to hear your report on them



Serious question: are you at all worried about them toppling over with accidental brushes/bumps? Or do they need a pretty strong smack to fall over?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: SlushPuppy on 11 Jun 2019, 07:54 pm
Wow! Those look great!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 11 Jun 2019, 10:29 pm
Thanks   guys.  Anxious  to get them to the  customer !
No, they won't topple over, the base is  pretty wide, kind of deceiving.

A couple  more  pics

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195462)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195463)


jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: scararabe on 22 Jun 2019, 10:14 am
Haven't seen  them in person yet, only   some pics. These are  going to be in a  theater orom so they are top coated with   flat  lacqar to keep reflections down.,  Matching  Super7 monitor and a dual h-frame   for a center channel.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195444)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195445)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195446)

Note,  the customer will be lying the   dual h-frame on it's side to keep the  tweeter  down to ear level for those inthe   theater.   He also has a  pair of triple h-frames  to mate with the  Line forces  :thumb:
jay


Hi,
Line force paint is very successful what is its reference?
How deep is the side wing?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 22 Jun 2019, 03:23 pm

Hi,
Line force paint is very successful what is its reference?
How deep is the side wing?

Color is matched to "Cracked Pepper" (https://m.valsparpaint.com/color-detail.php?id=2979&g=1047) finished in 00 flat  lacquer.

Wing is approximately 14"  deep

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: scararabe on 22 Jun 2019, 03:56 pm
Thank you so much.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: nrenter on 22 Jun 2019, 11:00 pm
I'm probably going to get flamed for this comment, but it comes from a place of love...

I love the lines of the Super LF...
I love the lines of the OB Sub cabinet...
I love the lines of the plate amp frame...

...but I'm not sure I'm in love when seeing them all together because I don't think they look like they're all part of the same design style. For example, the bases of the Super LFs are very different than those on the subs (and the plate amp frames don't really have a "base"). The Super LF's have a design element not found on the sub (or plate frames) - a curve on the top back of the wing). Same thing on plate amp frames - diagonal slots. The subs have an extra top plate to match the base (a design element not found anywhere else). The subs and plate amp boxes are "boxy" and the Super LFs are angled, fluid, and open. Yes, I know they're each designed by form-follows-function, but...

Just throwing this out there for consideration if you ever choose to revisit the aesthetics. I'm a bit OCD when it comes to symmetry and consistancy.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 24 Jun 2019, 03:45 am
Hey 
No, no  one  will flame  you  for  this. Totally  understand and appreciate  your  comments  but,  we have to make these some what  suitable  for   "99%" of the folks buying them and  who have  a multitude of different   setups they are  combining them with.

All your points are valid for someone wanting  to  shell out for a  one off pair  or  set of custom cabinets but if we had done ,  say the subs to perfectly match  the  Super Ls's,  then    what happens to the  guys  who   are  using them  to   cover the bottom end with something  different  ?     Same as the  amp  boxes,  the  slots  are there to provide some ventalation...  Yes, we could have done  it with say  holes, or multiple sized holes in some  sort of pattern but  is everyone  going  to want that  ?    One  size  never  fits  all and I'm pretty  sure  you  understand  that..   everything  requires  modeling and programming which  can  addup  to significant time  and   cost.  so far, we've managed to keep these  reasonably priced  and   there fore  are available for   a  lot of  people who couldn't otherwise have acces to  CNC'd   flat packs.

If someone wants   say a  custom   one off set  that  all  basically match,  that is not  an issue  bujt  they need to be prepared   to deal with associated  costs.

And,  with regards to  the rear    rounded  top conrner of the  Super  LS,  that    feature is pretty  common  .... the entire  NX  line   has it, the   new super Mini's  etc.  I've  been trying to come up with  a  way to    incorportate it nto the sujbs  as I think it would  be something  that  would  "fly"  with  everyone...  just  not  as easy  as it looks  !!

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mlundy57 on 24 Jun 2019, 05:16 am
Hey 
No, no  one  will flame  you  for  this. Totally  understand and appreciate  your  comments  but,  we have to make these some what  suitable  for   "99%" of the folks buying them and  who have  a multitude of different   setups they are  combining them with.

All your points are valid for someone wanting  to  shell out for a  one off pair  or  set of custom cabinets but if we had done ,  say the subs to perfectly match  the  Super Ls's,  then    what happens to the  guys  who   are  using them  to   cover the bottom end with something  different  ?     Same as the  amp  boxes,  the  slots  are there to provide some ventalation...  Yes, we could have done  it with say  holes, or multiple sized holes in some  sort of pattern but  is everyone  going  to want that  ?    One  size  never  fits  all and I'm pretty  sure  you  understand  that..   everything  requires  modeling and programming which  can  addup  to significant time  and   cost.  so far, we've managed to keep these  reasonably priced  and   there fore  are available for   a  lot of  people who couldn't otherwise have acces to  CNC'd   flat packs.

If someone wants   say a  custom   one off set  that  all  basically match,  that is not  an issue  bujt  they need to be prepared   to deal with associated  costs.

And,  with regards to  the rear    rounded  top conrner of the  Super  LS,  that    feature is pretty  common  .... the entire  NX  line   has it, the   new super Mini's  etc.  I've  been trying to come up with  a  way to    incorportate it nto the sujbs  as I think it would  be something  that  would  "fly"  with  everyone...  just  not  as easy  as it looks  !!

jay

Rounding over in multiple adjacent planes and/or slopping can end up limiting finishing options to paint or Dura-Tex. Veneer cannot be rolled over more than two planes and not everybody wants fully painted speakers

Mike
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 24 Jun 2019, 04:49 pm
I believe the poster above was referring to the   rear  upper corner radius onthe Lf/NX/Super Mini's  etc and  then the subs are  subs don't   have the same .

And yeah,    the roundovers on the  edges can make things  difficult which is why all our cabinets come  with  90 degree  cuts,  we ad the roundovers or other  features  if customers  request them  ..

Super  LS is te  exception... everything  has  a radius on it  including all edges on  the bases.

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: nrenter on 25 Jun 2019, 01:21 am
I think if I designed my dream set, I’d go with a candy apple red with matte black bases. I’d square the radius in the top wing. I’d used the same base on the speakers that’s on the subs - a simple slab. I’d remove the extra top plate on the subs. Not sure what I’d do with the plate amps. Maybe a candy box with a matte slab base (same style as the subs, just smaller), w/ vertical vent slots on the back side. It’s fun to dream.

Thanks for indulging my thoughts!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 25 Jun 2019, 03:14 am
Always good to dream  !!  I'm still dreaming  of hearing these  at some point, this pair is   off to danny   for final assembly  then off to the customer.

Those bases  were  designed to  lift the speaker   up  approx  5.5 "
LOL, and that upper  corner radius... leaned both  ways with  that, it was  finally decided to  put it in .
Maybe  at  some point  we'll have it  as an option  ... who  knows  !

House of Kolor,  Kany's   and translucents are    their specialty and that is all our  high end  guy sprays.

Plesent dreams  :)

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: scararabe on 27 Jun 2019, 11:57 am
Hi,
You have already explained that the cutoff frequency between the Neo10 and the servo sub was 180 hz and that between Neo10 and Neo3 was 1800 hz with a low slope.
Can you specify the slope of these cuts?
Have you tried active filtering solutions with lower and steeper slopes?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: S Clark on 27 Jun 2019, 01:55 pm
Hi,
You have already explained that the cutoff frequency between the Neo10 and the servo sub was 180 hz and that between Neo10 and Neo3 was 1800 hz with a low slope.
Can you specify the slope of these cuts?
Have you tried active filtering solutions with lower and steeper slopes?
I don't think most understand the pure amount of commitment it takes to bring such a product to market. 
Danny has discussed many times that he has yet to find an active crossover that sounds as good as a well designed passive.   I don't think most understand the extent of Danny's experience with these drivers.  Rich Hollis and I were there as Danny was doing the final tweaking of the crossover for this design.  No one, absolutely no one has the experience and expertise with these drivers that Danny has, and I dare say that includes the manufacturer.  His painstaking commitment to detail, accuracy, and finally musicality of his designs is at the very top of his profession.  You might find an alternative active crossover that would suit you well, but your likelihood of improvement is low. 
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Tyson on 27 Jun 2019, 02:54 pm
Hi,
You have already explained that the cutoff frequency between the Neo10 and the servo sub was 180 hz and that between Neo10 and Neo3 was 1800 hz with a low slope.
Can you specify the slope of these cuts?
Have you tried active filtering solutions with lower and steeper slopes?

Seriously?  The whole point of having a kit is so people will buy it and compensate the designers/creators for their work.  Giving away all the information re: crossover design completely undercuts their ability to be compensated for their work. 
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mlundy57 on 27 Jun 2019, 03:02 pm
Hi,
You have already explained that the cutoff frequency between the Neo10 and the servo sub was 180 hz and that between Neo10 and Neo3 was 1800 hz with a low slope.
Can you specify the slope of these cuts?
Have you tried active filtering solutions with lower and steeper slopes?

The subwoofer amp has a 12dB per octave slope with the option for an additional 12dB per octave starting at 50Hz or 80Hz. The phase control is also on the sub amp.

The midrange is what it is based on the particular design. The goal is to adjust the subs to match the mids.

Mike
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: scararabe on 27 Jun 2019, 05:20 pm
Seriously?  The whole point of having a kit is so people will buy it and compensate the designers/creators for their work.  Giving away all the information re: crossover design completely undercuts their ability to be compensated for their work.

If the creator of this speaker had wanted to keep his filter completely secret, he would never have spoken about cutoff frequencies.
I think that the confidentiality of the diagrams and components of the filter guarantees the designer that it will not be copied.

In my speaker I use in a baffle plane a B & G RD75 and 4 Precision device 18 inch baffle in H.
Active filtering is done by convolution with phase correction of the filtering.

The purpose of my message is to exchange ideas about the design of our speaker.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 27 Jun 2019, 06:23 pm
Hi,
You have already explained that the cutoff frequency between the Neo10 and the servo sub was 180 hz and that between Neo10 and Neo3 was 1800 hz with a low slope.
Can you specify the slope of these cuts?
Have you tried active filtering solutions with lower and steeper slopes?

That's okay. I am not offended by your questions.

I'll show you and everyone the actual and real acoustic slopes and measurements on these.

Now a line source has to be measured and tested quite differently than a point source design. The mic has to be further away and floor and ceiling reflections have to be accounted for. So the measurements have to include an in room response. And the room as to be well treated and well known to not skew the data or cause a misinterpretation of the data.

So the squiggles in the measurements are because of the room reflections. The dead drop at 20kHz is also common with any speaker in this room.

And I have to look at the responses of each speaker in both sides of the room.

Here is the speaker on the left side of the room.

(http://gr-research.com/measurements/in%20room%20left%20side%202.jpg)

And here is the one on the right.

(http://gr-research.com/measurements/right%20speaker.jpg)

Note too that the scaling of the graph is a 5db scale. So this is an incredibly smooth response for a room measurement.

So the slope and roll off can be easily seen.

Electronic crossovers really don't apply and can't really be made to work very well with line sources. The reason is that the output of a line source is skewed to the lower end. Lower wavelengths couple and add gain while the upper wavelengths do not. So the crossover is much more than just a crossover. It is a filter designed to make a linear response out of an acoustic response that is not linear. That means the filters is manipulating the response of each group of drivers within their pass band. Textbook filters don't do that.

And most active filters put too much in the signal path that degrades the signal. And you have to deal with yet another power supply, A/C noise levels, more power cables, conditioning.... op amps in the signal path, more connections, additional cables, and on and on...
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: scararabe on 27 Jun 2019, 07:20 pm
Quote
Electronic crossovers really don't apply and can't really be made to work very well with line sources. The reason is that the output of a line source is skewed to the lower end. Lower wavelengths couple and add gain while the upper wavelengths do not. So the crossover is much more than just a crossover. It is a filter designed to make a linear response out of an acoustic response that is not linear. That means the filters is manipulating the response of each group of drivers within their pass band. Textbook filters don't do that.

It seems that your design work for this filter is to linearize the response of the Neo3 on 1 octave before applying 12 db/oct filter.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 27 Jun 2019, 07:38 pm
It seems that your design work for this filter is to linearize the response of the Neo3 on 1 octave before applying 12 db/oct filter.

Well, sort of. As frequency decreases the output couples and additional gain is produced. So the filter has to be designed to lay that response over into a flat line, but then use and allow the natural roll off of the drivers. Crossover points are not picked. The response of the drivers dictate it.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: scararabe on 27 Jun 2019, 08:08 pm
indeed, the response curve of the Neo3 seems to descend steadily at 800 hz, a little over an octave higher than this to determine the crossover point of the filter at 1800 hz.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mdl62 on 29 Jun 2019, 03:56 am
for the less knowledgeable (me) , in Danny we trust.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 29 Jun 2019, 05:39 pm
indeed, the response curve of the Neo3 seems to descend steadily at 800 hz, a little over an octave higher than this to determine the crossover point of the filter at 1800 hz.

Danny was talking about the natural roll off of the Neo 10's  and  then crossing to the  subs

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Aug 2019, 08:17 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195444)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195445)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195446)

These things just arrived here for assembly. What a work of art!

And Jay and Don really packed these things well for the trip. I should have taken pictures of they way they were boxed. Wow!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 5 Aug 2019, 10:27 pm
Thanks Danny. Really glad they  are  safe and sound, we felt they  were pretty secure.  Custom box/packing adds up but it's worth it.
Can't wait to see  a couple pics  once  you  assemble them and the rest of the setup   !!

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: gab on 5 Aug 2019, 10:27 pm
Nice!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 5 Aug 2019, 10:35 pm
They live again!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mlundy57 on 5 Aug 2019, 10:37 pm
Thanks Danny. Really glad they  are  safe and sound, we felt they  were pretty secure.  Custom box/packing adds up but it's worth it.
Can't wait to see  a couple pics  once  you  assemble them and the rest of the setup   !!

jay

Jay,

Did you take any pics of the packing process?

Mike
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 5 Aug 2019, 11:00 pm
Jay,

Did you take any pics of the packing process?

Mike

No,   probably should have though.   I modeled everything up then   we had  custom  #2styrofoam  cnc cut.
Did it in such a way that after wrapping  each cabinet, we could  basically  encapsulate   both speakers in  foram around a core, then wrap  them all up  with  cling to keep it all     bound together  before finally  slipping   the entire   thing into a  custom made  , super heavy duty box.
We did very similar  for the  S7 center, the  dual h-frame, and the  Line Force/Super LS  bases.

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 6 Aug 2019, 02:24 am
Eagerly waiting for the fully assembled pics.  What kind of parts will be used for the XOs?
Information on the performance, sound etc

 :banana piano: :banana piano: :hyper:
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: SoCalWJS on 6 Aug 2019, 03:47 pm
Oh My! Those will be spectacular!

Where can one go to Demo these?  :green:

I would be certain these could be among the very best speakers ever made.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 6 Aug 2019, 05:12 pm
Oh My! Those will be spectacular!

Where can one go to Demo these?  :green:

I would be certain these could be among the very best speakers ever made.

After about an hour of listening to the original model the designer of the drivers said that my system was the best sounding system that he has heard in 30 years of audio.  :green:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=137990.msg1469047#msg1469047
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: SoCalWJS on 6 Aug 2019, 06:52 pm
After about an hour of listening to the original model the designer of the drivers said that my system was the best sounding system that he has heard in 30 years of audio.  :green:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=137990.msg1469047#msg1469047
Looking forward to comments on differences (if any, and if so, how much) between the original Aluminum frames and these Composites. I hope they are fairly minor or even imperceptible.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 6 Aug 2019, 10:56 pm
Looking forward to comments on differences (if any, and if so, how much) between the original Aluminum frames and these Composites. I hope they are fairly minor or even imperceptible.

There will be no  resonance issues with these.  A fully open cabinet like these won't be loaded much, if any at all. There is no outer wing to create anything. 
We went  with a  composite that is  slightly denser than  MDF, roughly .8 gr/cc.  Main issues were  strength as  there is not  a  lot  of material  left  between drivers  after machining.
This stuff  is so dimensionsally stable and nice to machine. On top of that,  once it's  glued up, it's really one solid piece, the joint becomes part of the material itself.
We also put  a lot of emphasis on attention to detail so nothing looks overlooked or  unfinished. Every exposed edge, even  on the bases   has been finished with a tight, 3.175mm  radius. All driver cutouts have a large radius on the  rear side along with a very  tight bevel around the front side so after mounting drivers it will be ever so slightly  apparent.
We've  consulted with Danny throughout this design process, I'm confident these will be easily measure  up  :)

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: rollo on 7 Aug 2019, 12:15 am
  Beautiful work Sirs How much $$$ for speaker ? Thank you.


charles
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 22 Aug 2019, 05:04 pm
Do we have lift-off?  :popcorn:   :D
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: soundofrockets on 23 Aug 2019, 02:03 am
When is the reveal? :drums: :drums:
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Sep 2019, 07:46 pm
The pair is up and playing. I'll post a bunch of pictures and impressions shortly.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mattburk on 19 Oct 2019, 09:33 pm
:o :o :o :o :o

 :thumb:

Make the feet/base lower if possible, cradle it to the floor like pardigm or some of the many others that are low and wide.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 20 Oct 2019, 05:53 pm
Make the feet/base lower if possible, cradle it to the floor like pardigm or some of the many others that are low and wide.

You want the LS to be up where it is and  actually, they are not the  tall but are    wider than you may think from  the pictures

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Stogie49 on 23 Nov 2020, 05:06 pm
So how tall are these overall?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: jeno on 31 Mar 2021, 08:28 am
Super interesting speakers! Will these come as a kit or fully asmbeled at some point? I see the NEO10 are now available again.

Couple of questions:

Do these have some kind of shading, or do all mid drivers play the same signal, and all the tweeters play the same signal?
Are there any reason besides cost that you haven't extended the line even further with more drivers? Extending the line towards the floor and ceiling could give a floor (and ceiling) reflection that could be beneficial as long as you don't use any shading.

Hoping to hear your thoughts on this. :)
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: cjsailer on 2 Apr 2021, 01:06 am
Super interesting speakers! Will these come as a kit or fully asmbeled at some point? I see the NEO10 are now available again.

Couple of questions:

Do these have some kind of shading, or do all mid drivers play the same signal, and all the tweeters play the same signal?
Are there any reason besides cost that you haven't extended the line even further with more drivers? Extending the line towards the floor and ceiling could give a floor (and ceiling) reflection that could be beneficial as long as you don't use any shading.

Hoping to hear your thoughts on this. :)

Where exactly do you find reasonably priced NEO10s?  I've seen them only priced @ $370 a pop, so a pair Super LS will run you $4440 just for those drivers, you'll still need a whole mess of NEO3s, the crossover, then the flat pack.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 2 Apr 2021, 01:17 am
Where exactly do you find reasonably priced NEO10s?  I've seen them only priced @ $370 a pop, so a pair Super LS will run you $2960 just for those drivers, you'll still need a whole mess of NEO3s, the crossover, then the flat pack.

Right now I dont really know if there is.. at least I haven't seen any available lately.
Overall, they seem to go thru cycles of availability and have only gotten more expensive with each occasional release.. even the Neo3s have gotten really expensive, running $90-130 depending on the model... Luckily, Danny has his own version.

I think someone was considering trying out the GRS branded Neo10 clone as an alternative, but from when testing with the Super mini baffle, it doesn't quite play low enough to reach the 200hz limit of the subs, tho that may be less of an issue in a line-source setup.

Even then, your still looking at roughly $1500 for just the GRS clones to build one.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mkrawcz on 2 Apr 2021, 01:32 am
I believe the Neo10s are currently out of production. At least in the DIY market.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 2 Apr 2021, 01:43 am
Yes, the BG NEO10's are no longer available via Parts-Express.  They are gone from the website.  Only the BG NEO3 and NEO8 models are still there.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mkrawcz on 2 Apr 2021, 03:53 pm
Hopefully Danny comes up with a comparable line source soon.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Captainhemo on 2 Apr 2021, 04:47 pm
Still working on  alternatives for the Neo10
Not a flat pack either,  these  come glued up ready to finish.  Base and crossover board bolt right  on and there are no corners/edges etc left unfinished. Lots of attention to detail....

jay
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Tyson on 2 Apr 2021, 08:32 pm
It's crazy that the (probably) best midrange driver in the world has had it's availability just sort of dry up.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: corndog71 on 2 Apr 2021, 08:40 pm
Cursed.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mkrawcz on 2 Apr 2021, 09:04 pm
It's crazy that the (probably) best midrange driver in the world has had it's availability just sort of dry up.
Just speculation on my part, but I suspect PS Audio is going to have them in their new speakers and they are hogging up the production.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: cjsailer on 5 Apr 2021, 04:53 pm
So what was the sensitivity and ohm rating on the prototype Super LS?  Do these type of designs require an insanely good amplifier?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mlundy57 on 5 Apr 2021, 04:57 pm
So what was the sensitivity and ohm rating on the prototype Super LS?  Do these type of designs require an insanely good amplifier?

Not in the least. IIRC the sensitivity is somewhere around 94-95dB and can be driven very well with 5-10 watts.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Tyson on 5 Apr 2021, 05:09 pm
So what was the sensitivity and ohm rating on the prototype Super LS?  Do these type of designs require an insanely good amplifier?

Since all the bass is offloaded to the self powered OB bass section, your main amp only has to drive the main panels from 150hz on up.  And as Mike says, the main panel section is 95db and a nice flat impedance.  A good 300b amp at 8 watts sounds amazing with them. 
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: cjsailer on 5 Apr 2021, 05:39 pm
Thanks guys.  I might have to wait and see if a replacement for the neo10 materializes.  Seems like an end game speaker design.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mlundy57 on 5 Apr 2021, 07:58 pm
Thanks guys.  I might have to wait and see if a replacement for the neo10 materializes.  Seems like an end game speaker design.

Danny is diligently working on a replacement. Not sure how long it’s going to take with all the supply chain problems down to raw material producers but it will be worth the weighr
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 5 Apr 2021, 09:44 pm
Thanks guys.  I might have to wait and see if a replacement for the neo10 materializes.  Seems like an end game speaker design.

There is no seems like.  It is an end game speaker design from someone that has heard them with passive and DSP crossovers and the dual 3x12 servo subs!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mkrawcz on 5 Apr 2021, 10:16 pm
I will take out a home equity loan in 3 seconds flat for this speaker.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: david45 on 6 Apr 2021, 11:05 am
Since all the bass is offloaded to the self powered OB bass section, your main amp only has to drive the main panels from 150hz on up.  And as Mike says, the main panel section is 95db and a nice flat impedance.  A good 300b amp at 8 watts sounds amazing with them.

180hz on up and 98db efficient vs 97 for the Super-7 and 93.5 for the NX-Otica speakers, unless things have changed (?)
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: jeno on 6 Apr 2021, 05:44 pm
Where exactly do you find reasonably priced NEO10s?  I've seen them only priced @ $370 a pop, so a pair Super LS will run you $4440 just for those drivers, you'll still need a whole mess of NEO3s, the crossover, then the flat pack.

I believed Parts Express had them for $199, but didn't realize they were gone again. Anyway, if anyone is buiilding a speaker like this, they should be prepared to dig deep in their pockets. So I guess there is an economical and not an acoustic the reason for the relative short line of drivers. It probably works well anyway.  :D
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 6 Apr 2021, 07:34 pm
The last price of the BG NEO10's at Parts-Express was $370.00 per planar.  They jumped alot on the last production before they went away.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 6 Apr 2021, 07:38 pm
I think the cheapest i ever saw them was $249 a year or so ago, but they were still really limited as far as stock goes.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Jaytor on 6 Apr 2021, 09:28 pm
I was able to get the NEO10s for $320 each by buying 13 together (one spare). I ordered them last July from PE and finally got them in November.

Working on the crossovers now, and hopefully Jay (Captainhemo) will be able to make the cabinets for me this spring.

I'm excited!
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Early B. on 6 Apr 2021, 10:11 pm
Working on the crossovers now,

I assume you're gonna use super premium crossover parts???
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: cjsailer on 6 Apr 2021, 10:35 pm
I assume you're gonna use super premium crossover parts???
Nah use the cheesy crossover parts to more easily match a yellow theme for the baffle.  After dropping that much cash on the drivers, you have to cut corners somewhere, LOL.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Jaytor on 6 Apr 2021, 10:44 pm
Here's a photo of one of the caps. There are several similar size caps in each crossover  :green:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223002)
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 6 Apr 2021, 10:53 pm
Here's a photo of one of the caps. There are several similar size caps in each crossover  :green:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223002)

Knowing how big the NXStudio Miflex caps I got recently are, I think I know exactly which one that is! :wink:
Iirc, aren't the KPCU-02 the units with both leads on the same side?

Will you be using miflex bypass caps as well or the Duelund caps I've seen others mention?
What were your pics for the resistors & inductors?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Jaytor on 6 Apr 2021, 11:02 pm
Yes, the KPCU-2 caps have both leads coming from the same end.

I am still waiting on the inductors and resistors. Dang is shipping them to me shortly.

I haven’t decided on bypass. Danny didn’t use them on his prototypes, but I may give them a try.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 6 Apr 2021, 11:12 pm
Yes, the KPCU-2 caps have both leads coming from the same end.

I am still waiting on the inductors and resistors. Dang is shipping them to me shortly.

I haven’t decided on bypass. Danny didn’t use them on his prototypes, but I may give them a try.

Ahh okay, I'm most likely going to be getting Erse Foil-Q inductors and Path Audio resistors based on a few different recommentdations. Tho I'm excited to see what your choices end up being! :thumb:

Ahh okay, I'll be sticking with Miflex caps for bypass, but im surprised that Danny didnt use them, but maybe it's because it was a prototype?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mkrawcz on 6 Apr 2021, 11:17 pm
Wow! You going to light that off in the back yard? Speaking of caps, tonight I swapped out the Sonicaps on the mid circuit of my NXOticas for a single Auricap XO and a Miflex bypass and it instantly took the speakers to another level. Cant wait to hear how they are after a 100hrs.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 7 Apr 2021, 12:03 am
After trying Danny's original pair of Line Force speakers with 3x12 servo's with my dspMusik 2x8 digital crossover, that would be the way I would go if I built a pair with my BG NEO10's and GR NEO3's.  We drove the line array directly with his solid state battery amp. 

I prefer time delay between the line array and the servo subs instead of phase control for wave front alignment.  Worked well in Danny's setup when we tried in 2015.

The new version of the DSP crossover is the dspNexus 2x8.  Has the new AKM AK4499EQ DAC's with Class A output stage.  The prototype dspNexus I have is working well with my planars ad servo subs.  Showed it at AXPONA2019 with the Super Mini's and got great response in the room.





Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: mkrawcz on 7 Apr 2021, 12:06 am
After trying Danny's original pair of Line Force speakers with 3x12 servo's with my dspMusik 2x8 digital crossover, that would be the way I would go if I built a pair with my BG NEO10's and GR NEO3's.  We drove the line array directly with his solid state battery amp. 

I prefer time delay between the line array and the servo subs instead of phase control for wave front alignment.  Worked well in Danny's setup when we tried in 2015.

The new version of the DSP crossover is the dspNexus 2x8.  Has the new AKM AK4499EQ DAC's with Class A output stage.  The prototype dspNexus I have is working well with my planars ad servo subs.  Showed it at AXPONA2019 with the Super Mini's and got great response in the room.

Was that the Digital crossover Danny said was pretty much as good as his passive crossover?
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 7 Apr 2021, 12:12 am
Yes.

And the new version is better.  Still waiting on final production date, but should be soon.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Jaytor on 7 Apr 2021, 01:06 am
@HAL - I read your megaliths thread. Very impressive project. I think a little beyond what I want to attempt at this point, and I already have a lot invested in a more conventional approach with a nice DAC, analog preamp, etc.

At some point, I may experiment with using an active crossover and bi-amping, but that's definitely down the road a ways. In the mean time, I'm trying to build the best quality passive crossover I can using Danny's design and guidance.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: HAL on 7 Apr 2021, 01:19 am
Not even a big deal for the Line Force.  We wired up the line arrays as single outputs from a stereo power amp and the dspMusik 2x8 as the DAC driving the planars and servo subs.   Did not use the time delay feature on the line array.

We did a simple distance offset measurement and turned it into a time delay.  Then I just delayed the mains so the subs (which were behind the lines) and line array outputs time aligned.  Just simple a simple thing to add to the crossover design.

Good luck with your passive XO.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: Early B. on 7 Apr 2021, 01:44 am
Here's a photo of one of the caps. There are several similar size caps in each crossover  :green:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223002)

OK, so I'm gonna follow your crossover build with great interest. The crossover enclosures will be as big as the speakers!!! Miflex caps are awesome and worth every penny.
Title: Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
Post by: corndog71 on 7 Apr 2021, 03:22 am

The new version of the DSP crossover is the dspNexus 2x8.  Has the new AKM AK4499EQ DAC's with Class A output stage.  The prototype dspNexus I have is working well with my planars ad servo subs.  Showed it at AXPONA2019 with the Super Mini's and got great response in the room.

I was there and can say they sounded amazing.  I was surprised by how holographic they were.  I still can’t quite get my Super 7s to sound holographic but concede I just haven’t had a good room for them.  I’m still playing around with positioning and toe-in too.