AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: Pundamilia on 1 Apr 2018, 10:14 pm
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Notwithstanding the fact that Bryston OEMs power conditioners, given the substantial power supplies built into Bryston amps, how necessary is additional external power conditioning with Bryston equipment? As I understand it, the role of power conditioning is to provide a stable source of power with no voltage drops and the ability to draw current as required to enable accurate reproduction of dynamic peaks. Also, it provides surge protection from spikes (e.g. lightning, etc.) Is this correct?
If one has a fairly stable voltage source consistently 120V to 125V and is using a dedicated circuit (no microwave or washing machine sharing the circuit), would adding a heavy-duty power conditioner (like the BITS) result in significant sonic improvement. I am currently using a Belkin Power Console PF60, but it is more for the convenience of a single-switch startup (using triggers between the Bryston equipment) than serious power management.
Thank you in advance for any wisdom and experience offered.
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For me a power conditioner (Monster AVS 2000) made a noticeable difference. I have pretty much all my audio equipment going through one power outlet. With my Paradigm Studio 100 v2 the voltage meter on my Art 4x4 conditioner would indicate a drop in voltage of between 5 and 8 volts every time low bass notes hit.
An audiophile who was visiting saw this and suggested I buy his used Monster AVS 2000. I was hesitant that it would make a difference but I bought it. Right away after having installed it, I had hard hitting bass slam with each and every bass note.
I would say prior to using the power conditioner my speakers were lagging because of the voltage swings. Now my speakers are fast with hard hitting bass.
I use two Bryston 3B SST/2, SP2, BDA-1, BCD-3, BDP-1, Model T passives, Paradigm Studio 100 v2, Yamaha MG 10 mixer, Sony Blu-ray player.
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I find there is a tradeoff with using a power conditioner with an amplifier.
The plus is greater clarity.
The minus may be a leanness across the midrange down to the bass.. (or it may just sound like the bass is tighter, less wooly.
Over the years I have alternated plugging my Bryston 4B=SST² amp into the Furman REF20i or into the wall power.
Depending on what I am looking for.
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I use Shunyata's conditioners. For my system, a veil was lifted, allowing me to hear deeper into the music, tiny subtle details more clear. Probably the most meaningful qualitative improvement for my system.
cheers
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hi Pundamilla
I purchased a BIT20 about 3 or 4 months ago from an authorized dealer. I'm running all Bryston electronics into it - including my 4BSST2.
My first observation using the BIT 20 was everything seemed to SLOW RTF down. It was a strange sensation. But very real. The instruments seemed further apart...with dead quiet space all around.
I do not have a dedicated circuit at the moment.
Prior to the BIT20, i would notice the lights dimming/flickering in time with those slamming bass notes. especially at higher volumes. Now, those power drops in the lights are no longer evident.
But ya, the BIT20 brings a pretty noticeable difference in sound stage and, to me, an overall mellow-ness in the presentation.
Hard to describe, but I hope this helps.
My next move will be dedicated 20a circuit. Might be overkill, but what the hell - it's only a few hundred bucks for an electrician to install.
TJ.
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I never had audible problems before, so I didn't get the Torus (BIT 15) to fix a problem in particular, but just to see if things would sound different or better.
With everything plugged into the Torus, I also did feel the music slowed down at first. However, that wasn't the first thing that I noted. Above all, I just remember saying to myself "That sounds DRY." That sensation stuck with me for every track I played that day. It was very noticeable on transients. On some fast and busy passages, you could hear both the music being dryer and slowing down that you could follow along better. I got used to it within a day or two.
I find the biggest payoff is in long-term listening.
BEWARE: The BDP players do not like being plugged into the Torus/BIT, especially if the Torus/BIT is not fully loaded. You will get overvoltage error codes throughout the day. So you might be forced to plug the BDP's into a separate power strip from the wall.
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hey zoom25. cool that you also noticed things seemingly slow down. I'm glad i'm not the only one! :scratch:
but i have my BDP-1 plugged into the BIT20, and all is well and have not experienced an error issue...
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^ Curious as to whether a BIT20 increased resolution of music -- veil lifted, deeper/wider soundstage, clearer imaging?
Seems to be a property of some, but not all, power conds.
cheers
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hey zoom25. cool that you also noticed things seemingly slow down. I'm glad i'm not the only one! :scratch:
but i have my BDP-1 plugged into the BIT20, and all is well and have not experienced an error issue...
I was told that the BDP-1 can trip if it's plugged into power conditioners that output high voltage. This can happen with Torus when they aren't sufficiently loaded. I'm definitely not pushing my Torus hard enough. The hungriest thing plugged into it as Amphion Amp100.
James told me that this happens with BDP-1 in particular because the power supply of the BDP-1 isn't as tolerant of voltage fluctuations as the ones in BDP-2 and BDP-3. Although, since then I've found a few reports of BDP-2's tripping as well on power conditioners, including Torus and Furman.
What do you have plugged into your Torus? I wonder if there have been any changes to the power supplies of the BDP's throughout their lifespan to address this. I bought a used BDP-1 and I think it's an early unit.
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Also, what are you guys using for power cables either into the Torus and from the Torus into components?
I don't have much experience with power cables. I've read Bryston's stance before on this.
"When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get. "
http://www.bryston.com/pages/faq.html
I'll share my limited experience.
For the Torus itself, I'm using the supplied 14 AWG cable.
As for the cables from the Torus to the audio components, I have 2 pair of stock black cables. The first batch is unshielded 6 footers 18 AWG. The second batch is shielded 3 footers 14 AWG. I also have a 6 foot 14 AWG shielded for the Torus to wall.
I definitely notice a difference in sound when I swap out the shielded vs unshielded cables. I know they are of slightly different lengths and gauges and shielded vs. unshielded, so it's hard to draw conclusions.
Personally, I don't think the gauge comes to play as the gear isn't drawing anything significant. The length shouldn't be too much of a factor either (3 vs 6 feet). Although, I remember reading some Shunyata material from back then about minimum length. I don't remember the reason or its merit.
I did consider whether the signal cables might be getting influenced by the change in power cables, but I don't think that's the case as the signal cables are very well shielded and twisted and are far away. Plus, I've tried time and time to put all kinds of noisy stuff on the interconnects and the sound never changed.
I find the unshielded more open and natural sounding. The shielded makes things sound a bit closed in and with a slight haze. I also don't find any lack in power or transients with the lower gauge unshielded.
Hard to conclude whether it's actually the shielding, gauge, or length, or combination that's causing a difference in sound. But there it is.
This was the shielded cable for reference: http://www.infinitecables.com/power-cables/nema-power-cords/5-15p-to-c13-power-cords/5-15p-to-c13-shielded-power-cords/6ft-nema-5-15p-to-iec-c13-power-cable-14awg-sjt-shielded/
That's my $0.05
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I was told that the BDP-1 can trip if it's plugged into power conditioners that output high voltage. This can happen with Torus when they aren't sufficiently loaded. I'm definitely not pushing my Torus hard enough. The hungriest thing plugged into it as Amphion Amp100.
James told me that this happens with BDP-1 in particular because the power supply of the BDP-1 isn't as tolerant of voltage fluctuations as the ones in BDP-2 and BDP-3. Although, since then I've found a few reports of BDP-2's tripping as well on power conditioners, including Torus and Furman.
What do you have plugged into your Torus? I wonder if there have been any changes to the power supplies of the BDP's throughout their lifespan to address this. I bought a used BDP-1 and I think it's an early unit.
I've had a BDP3 plugged into a BIT15 for two months. No problems with the BDP3. 100 watt Moon integrated with DAC and Phono built in so no big power draws.
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I was told that the BDP-1 can trip if it's plugged into power conditioners that output high voltage. .... this happens with BDP-1 in particular because the power supply of the BDP-1 isn't as tolerant of voltage fluctuations as the ones in BDP-2 and BDP-3.
I've had no power issues whatsoever with any of my electronics (all in fact) plugged into Shunyata's cond. Including power amps, preamps, CDPs, DACs, and BDP-1/2. Not even a hiccup.
Not sure what the design of the BITs is. Seems odd that BDPs may not "match" with them.
cheers
cheers
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I was told that the BDP-1 can trip if it's plugged into power conditioners that output high voltage. This can happen with Torus when they aren't sufficiently loaded. I'm definitely not pushing my Torus hard enough. The hungriest thing plugged into it as Amphion Amp100.
James told me that this happens with BDP-1 in particular because the power supply of the BDP-1 isn't as tolerant of voltage fluctuations as the ones in BDP-2 and BDP-3. Although, since then I've found a few reports of BDP-2's tripping as well on power conditioners, including Torus and Furman.
What do you have plugged into your Torus? I wonder if there have been any changes to the power supplies of the BDP's throughout their lifespan to address this. I bought a used BDP-1 and I think it's an early unit.
hey Zoom
Not sure what to say about the BDP-1 tripping on the BIT's - haven't had an issue at all.
I pretty much have ALL my electronics plugged into my BIT20>> 4BSST2, BDA2, BDP1, BP20, OPPO 203, Classe CA100, and LG OLED TV!
I think my BDP-1 is an early unit as well.
As for power cords in your next post, I DO find power cords make a difference. I was a non-believer forever until I bought a PS Audio power cable on the used market for less than $200. I plugged it into my 4BSST2 and it made a very noticeable difference immediately. I even brought my wife over to the listening position and did the A/B test without telling her which cable was the new one. She picked out the difference right away. More clear bass lines, especially.
SO....while I think i understand the logic in the miles and miles of cables - for some reason the last 3 feet makes a difference. I also use PS Audio cables for the BDA2 and BDP1.
TJ
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I've had a BDP3 plugged into a BIT15 for two months. No problems with the BDP3. 100 watt Moon integrated with DAC and Phono built in so no big power draws.
That's good to hear.
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hey Zoom
Not sure what to say about the BDP-1 tripping on the BIT's - haven't had an issue at all.
I pretty much have ALL my electronics plugged into my BIT20>> 4BSST2, BDA2, BDP1, BP20, OPPO 203, Classe CA100, and LG OLED TV!
I think my BDP-1 is an early unit as well.
As for power cords in your next post, I DO find power cords make a difference. I was a non-believer forever until I bought a PS Audio power cable on the used market for less than $200. I plugged it into my 4BSST2 and it made a very noticeable difference immediately. I even brought my wife over to the listening position and did the A/B test without telling her which cable was the new one. She picked out the difference right away. More clear bass lines, especially.
SO....while I think i understand the logic in the miles and miles of cables - for some reason the last 3 feet makes a difference. I also use PS Audio cables for the BDA2 and BDP1.
TJ
That makes sense with your load. That's good that you can have your BDP plugged into the Torus.
Regarding the power cables, I have limited practical experience, but I've been some explanations out there. I don't doubt your experiences, but am puzzled by the mechanisms by which they sound different.
The power draw argument doesn't make sense to me. If I have 14/12 AWG wiring for 15A/20A circuit respectively throughout the wall, then how does the last few feet put so much strain on the power draw, especially if the components used draw little power and you are using low gauge power cables. If you stick 12 or 14 gauges for each component, then it's practically the same as the wire behind the wall. It should still be a low impedance connection.
The other thing that I can think of is shielding. Either the shield helps keep the noise out or the noise inside that is generated by the components themselves. In that case I can see how the shielding of a cable might provide benefit in the local environment of the rack.
In my rig, I've tried placing very noisy things on top of my gear and cables to induce problems, but that doesn't cause any problems either.
There is another thing that I've been wondering about: if the shielding is not required, does it cause more problems than its unshielded counterpart. Could the shielding be negatively affecting the sound, while perhaps making things sound nice in some people's rig. For example, some people like using shielded CAT7 cables with ground attached for example, even though that's introducing noise to the ground plane.
Here's a thought/practical experiment that I would love to do or have someone do. Suppose you have a shielded room that completely blocks out any external noise and there is nothing inside that room that can cause problems. In that room you have a single audio component like a media player + DAC + headphone amp built into the chassis (like a BDP+BDA+BHA in one body). So no interconnects or other cables required. The radiation argument won't matter here. Only thing required is a power cable that can be plugged into the wall. The incoming power from the other side is very clean, if not perfect textbook.
In that situation, I wonder if an unshielded or shielded made of similar design and gauge would perform better than the other. Would the shielding be working against it? In this case the shielding is not required, so would the addition of a shield help or make things worse?
I've read a few times that Vovox recommends their unshielded stuff over their shielded stuff for every cable type, even though their shielded equivalent cable costs more. They find that the shielding makes things worse and is compromising to the signal. They think of shielding as a necessarily evil, to be used only when required.
I'm just thinking out loud. I just realized that aside from the wire, I haven't even considered the connector as far as impedance goes.
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The old argument that the last 3 ft of wiring don't make any difference isn't necessarily true. A good power cond can improve SQ by blocking component-to-component interference, etc.
The analogy I like to make is that I have a Brita filter installed on my tap nozzle -- the "last 6 inches". It gives me cleaner water, despite the possibly dirtier piping behind it in the walls.
cheers
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Regarding the power cables, I have limited practical experience, but I've been some explanations out there. I don't doubt your experiences, but am puzzled by the mechanisms by which they sound different.
The power draw argument doesn't make sense to me. If I have 14/12 AWG wiring for 15A/20A circuit respectively throughout the wall, then how does the last few feet put so much strain on the power draw, especially if the components used draw little power and you are using low gauge power cables. If you stick 12 or 14 gauges for each component, then it's practically the same as the wire behind the wall. It should still be a low impedance connection.
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Yep, it's a series circuit going all the way back to that big power company transformer down the street. From a power/current perspective, think of it as a long chain, so replacing a few links with bigger links won't make the chain any stronger.
But that's not to say that all power cords are good cords. One day I measured the cords in my spares box with a very good Ohm meter. Knowing their length and AWG size some of the cords did not measure anywhere near whit I expected.
Note that only big power amps care about the strength of the chain (I mean the-end-to-end resistance of the AC power system).
The other thing that I can think of is shielding. Either the shield helps keep the noise out or the noise inside that is generated by the components themselves. In that case I can see how the shielding of a cable might provide benefit in the local environment of the rack.
The one other way that the last 3 or 6 feet of the AC cord can impact the sound is: In rare cases hi-fi power cords can act as noise/interference antennas (both transmitting and receiving). But I'm sure that it's not a problem with Bryston equipment. So different cord construction and/or length and/or shielding can impact this problem.
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Yep, it's a series circuit going all the way back to that big power company transformer down the street. From a power/current perspective, think of it as a long chain, so replacing a few links with bigger links won't make the chain any stronger.
But that's not to say that all power cords are good cords. One day I measured the cords in my spares box with a very good Ohm meter. Knowing their length and AWG size some of the cords did not measure anywhere near whit I expected.
Note that only big power amps care about the strength of the chain (I mean the-end-to-end resistance of the AC power system).
The one other way that the last 3 or 6 feet of the AC cord can impact the sound is: In rare cases hi-fi power cords can act as noise/interference antennas (both transmitting and receiving). But I'm sure that it's not a problem with Bryston equipment. So different cord construction and/or length and/or shielding can impact this problem.
I'll take a look at the shielding design. I've been told it's an aluminum mylar foil. Waiting to find out if the drain is connected on both ends or only one.
I think this post echoes something similar to yours, but it's probably more related to amplifiers: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/audiphile-power-cords
With power cords its all about voltage drop across the cord. Some of that is at 60Hz, and some of that is much much higher- well above 30KHz-100KHz depending on the power supply in the unit with which it is being used.
I've seen a 2 1/2 volt drop rob an amplifier of about 30% of its output power. The cord was rated for 10 amps, and the draw was about 6 amps. This measurement was done with a simple 3 1/2 digit Digital Voltmeter.
The more insidious problem is high frequency bandwidth. The power supplies of most amplifiers have a power transformer, a set of rectifiers, and a set of filter capacitors. The rectifiers only conduct when the power transformer output is higher than that of the filter caps. So:
When the caps are fully charged the amp is able to play. As it does so, the caps are discharged until the AC line voltage waveform gets high enough again that the rectifiers in the power supply are able to conduct. Depending on the state of charge of the filter capacitors, this might only be for a few microseconds or it might be a few milliseconds. Either way, the charge is a spike which has very steep sides- and requires some bandwidth to make it happen.
If the power cord has poor high frequency response, it will current limit on these spikes. This can result is subtle modulations in the power supply or even a sagging power supply voltage.
Romex wiring found in many buildings actually works quite well. So it really becomes all about that last few feet and also how well the power cord is terminated- molded cords generally are not terminated very well. If the ends of your power cord get warm after a while, you know you have a problem!
This can be measured, its quantifiable and also audible as many audiophiles know. Anyone who tells you differently probably has not bothered to do any measurements- please refer them to this post.
I can go into more depth but this is it in a nutshell. Incidentally, Shunyata Research is refining an instrument that does a more in-depth analysis of what this is all about. At the link you will see that their tests essentially confirm what I have said here.
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm
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The old argument that the last 3 ft of wiring don't make any difference isn't necessarily true. A good power cond can improve SQ by blocking component-to-component interference, etc.
The analogy I like to make is that I have a Brita filter installed on my tap nozzle -- the "last 6 inches". It gives me cleaner water, despite the possibly dirtier piping behind it in the walls.
cheers
The first one is more about radiation, which makes sense. The second sounds more like filtering. How are normal passive power cables filtering? Although I've heard that argument before. I still don't understand Shunyata's minimum length suggestion. They mention more here:
http://shunyata.com/technical-articles/
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So which specialty cables does Gary Dayton recommend here at the end:
https://youtu.be/zjsFv5YpcFo?t=2m2s
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How are normal passive power cables filtering? Although I've heard that argument before. I still don't understand Shunyata's minimum length suggestion. They mention more here:
http://shunyata.com/technical-articles/
No idea how, on both counts.
I presume it's the internals of the conditioners that block ripple noise etc. Not so much the power cables.
cheers
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hey Zoom. are you an engineer or wha? Your analytical approach is off the charts man. Cool.
Have you ever tried a few different quality power cables and see how they sound? And if they sound good, light it up!
T
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Okay, quick update. I did found out that the stock shielded power cable that I had had the shield's drain wire connected to both ends of the ground. Apparently, this is required for UL purposes. I've been told that this isn't good for audio purposes. So my listening tests did match up with what's going on.
Now that I have first hand experience that power cables can sound different, I question how various audiophile shielding power cable are connecting their shields. Are they connecting one end (which end), both end, no end? Is it possible that they are liking something that might actually be a bad design? I tried looking around various manufacturer's page and nowhere did they specify how the shield was connected.
From a limited survey, it seems that the Audiogon crowd seems to like their various shielded cords. On the other hand, the Naim and Linn crowd generally prefer their unshielded cables and for similar reasons as me. The shielded cables can sound good or different initially, but over time some you become aware that something is off here. When going back to the standard unshielded, it initially feels dull or boring but it has correct balance and doesn't bother you in the long run.
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hey Zoom. are you an engineer or wha? Your analytical approach is off the charts man. Cool.
Have you ever tried a few different quality power cables and see how they sound? And if they sound good, light it up!
T
Hi TJ,
You can read part of the answer above. I haven't tried anything fancy for a couple of reasons:
1) Expensive
2) I was under the assumption that you'd multiple of them to hear the difference. So VERY expensive. However, that's not true. In my testing, when I left all of them unshielded, and only experimented with one or two components at a time with shielded that I could swap out in less than 10 seconds for quick A/B, the difference between the shielded and unshielded was still there even with single components.
3) I'm still not sure of what designs are the best and what to look out for. The companies don't seem to mention this in detail.
I'll be sticking with my stock unshielded cables with the Torus. Maybe later if I ever get a chance to compare a cable, I'll give it a shot for curiosity's sake to see if it makes no change, or if it does make a change - is it for the better or worse.
Do you know how your PS Audio cables are designed?
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Okay, quick update. I did found out that the stock shielded power cable that I had had the shield's drain wire connected to both ends of the ground. Apparently, this is required for UL purposes. I've been told that this isn't good for audio purposes. So my listening tests did match up with what's going on.
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That is the UL rule, but an exception is permitted:
46.2 A power-supply cord employing shielded cord that does not have the shield or drain wire terminated,
along with the grounding connector, to the grounding terminal of the attachment plug, load fitting, or both,
shall be indelibly marked with the following or the equivalent: “CAUTION: The shield in this cord is not
terminated to any of the terminals in the .” The blank is to be filled-in with one of the following:
“attachment plug”, “appliance coupler”, or “attachment plug or appliance coupler”, as appropriate.
I would rather have the shield attached at only the hi-fi component end. That way it functions only as an extension of the chassis shield. If it's attached at both ends it becomes part of the Safety Ground circuit.
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That is the UL rule, but an exception is permitted:
46.2 A power-supply cord employing shielded cord that does not have the shield or drain wire terminated,
along with the grounding connector, to the grounding terminal of the attachment plug, load fitting, or both,
shall be indelibly marked with the following or the equivalent: “CAUTION: The shield in this cord is not
terminated to any of the terminals in the .” The blank is to be filled-in with one of the following:
“attachment plug”, “appliance coupler”, or “attachment plug or appliance coupler”, as appropriate.
I would rather have the shield attached at only the hi-fi component end. That way it functions only as an extension of the chassis shield. If it's attached at both ends it becomes part of the Safety Ground circuit.
Thanks. I remember seeing both options of shield at wall-end vs. component-end. What's the logic behind connecting at wall-end? I've often seen recommendation for connecting the shield at the wall-end as a way to drain the noise away from the component.
"Now about the cords themselves. The reason a lot of manufacturers use the ferrite beads (even though they're not as effective as shielding IMO) instead of shielded cords has to do with UL approval. UL approval for a shielded OEM power cord (and therefore the device itself) requires that the shield be attached to ground at both ends of the cord. Such a cord will shield OK, but by connecting the shield at both ends, a ground loop is formed and so such cords are susceptible to hum pickup.
Most aftermarket shielded cords, have the shield connected to ground only at the AC plug end. This is called a "floating shield" and is the best way to do it. DO NOT use a ground-lifting "cheater plug" with these cords or you lose the shielding properties.
I'm not going to recommend a specific cord, but make sure you ask the manufacturer three questions (and do get answers or don't buy the cord):
1.) Is it shielded (and you might ask braid? or foil? or both?)
2.) Is it a floating shield?
3.) Which end is the shield connected (you want the AC plug end)"
Taken from here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/suggestions-for-fully-shielded-power-cord
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I would rather have the shield attached at only the hi-fi component end. That way it functions only as an extension of the chassis shield. If it's attached at both ends it becomes part of the Safety Ground circuit.
Yeah, I don't understand this shielding of power cords. I'm afraid you are throwing your money away - there is no justification for paying that kind of money for an AC power cord. Granted, some people want to make their own DIY cords in custom lengths to avoid the "extension cord" connection, and that's great - go to your local electrical store and buy some Beldon 12/3 power cable and some nice Hubbell plugs and an IEC connector and make your own power cord for under $30. There's no better functioning cord on the market today. As long as the power cord is of sufficient gauge to not impede the current flow for that last few feet that it is used, you're OK.
Shielding a power cord? The circuits that deliver AC power to your components are the lowest impedance circuits in your entire system, even lower than your speaker connections. As a result of this low impedance, there is simply no need for shielding of any type to either contain RFI within the power cable or to prevent RFI from entering the power cable. Spend money somewhere that makes a difference.
brucek
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Why shield a power cord? While it's far come common, any of your hi-fi power cords can act as noise/interference antennas (both transmitting and receiving). That's why it's good to stick with well designed components (hint) that don't suffer from these problems.
But once a systems suffers from these problems, the solutions become Black Magic. Changing the length of the cord can change the problem. Changing the placement (dress) of the cord can change the problem. A particular cord might be better one time and worse the next.
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Hi TJ,
You can read part of the answer above. I haven't tried anything fancy for a couple of reasons:
1) Expensive
3) I'm still not sure of what designs are the best and what to look out for. The companies don't seem to mention this in detail.
Do you know how your PS Audio cables are designed?
Zoomer
PS Audio includes a small blurb on design characteristics on their website:
"The PerfectWave AC5 is the best value power cable we’ve made in the last decade. The AC5 is a 10 gauge cable constructed with pure Linear Crystal Copper in multiple gauges and shapes.
Inside the AC5 is one LCC hollow conductor for the treble region, a large LCC rectangular conductor for the midrange and multiple gauges of LCC bundled together for the bass. Equipment powered with an AC5 enjoy a significant improvement in sound quality over any stock power cable."
Rather than speculate, and garner information from the Audiogon crowd....just buy one of these AC5's (Or even the AC3) and try it. Draw your own conclusions. Forget about all the shielding gibberish for a moment and let your ears determine if it's worth spending a few hundred bucks on a power cable.
That's what I did. And I was amazed at what a single power cable could do to improve overall system performance.
Give 'er a go.
Thanks TJ
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I own a Furman REF20i conditioner ($3500) and a PS Audio P600 ($2250 with options)
I use all Pangea power cords.
When I bought a Pangea AC9SE I decided the best place to break it in would be from the wall to the Furman.
I was shocked to note I could hear an improvement in the overall sound.
The AC9SE however, did not make the PS Audio P600 sound any better, actually the PS Audio P600 sounded better with the AC9 and not the SE edition.
Also differences to my Bryston BP-26 power supply. The AC9 was better than the AC14SE. Go figure.
All Pangea are totally shielded. I own a 'sniffer' for AC voltage and it registers zero with the Pangea powercords except at the plug ends.
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Right on Elizabeth. Another example of an affordable power cable that brings sonic improvements!
Come on ZOOM - go get yourself one! :) Call it an early Xmas present, or birthday present. :thumb:
TJ
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This article does make a reference to Bryston, but there is no explanation or elaboration on the products. However, he is NOT a believer in the impact that expensive power cables have:
http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6223 (http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6223)
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This article does make a reference to Bryston, but there is no explanation or elaboration on the products. However, he is NOT a believer in the impact that expensive power cables have:
http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6223 (http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6223)
YMMV as usual with audio. :?
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That's a good blog. We need more bloggers like Mark Waldrep and less power cord believers.
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............. However, he is NOT a believer in the impact that expensive power cables have:
Having been in this hobby since the 60s and I should know better....but just took a peek behind the furniture on the front wall and not too sure which power cable I should start with. :scratch:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181684)
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Could use a good vacuuming back there, rob!
cheers
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Could use a good vacuuming back there, rob!
cheers
Always...dust can be more detrimental on equipment than cable arrangements....especially with two cats...: )
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central heating's expen$ive in Ontario.....
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central heating's expen$ive in Ontario.....
Hi Pete...You bring an excellent point which is somewhat related...not too sure and it may be my imagination...but with an increase in power costs and going green many of us have gone from leaving ones equipment on 24/7 so that listening is always from a cold start and IMHO just doesn't sound quite the same until about an hour or so into a session.
Now power conditioning can stabilize and clean up somewhat the incoming electricity and Bryston has taken great strides in addressing just that...I'm still skeptical about power cords but I guess it is possible to change the incoming flow to the power amp or any other associated equipment, how that effects our music appreciation more than our current mood, state of mind, stress or lack of or time of day I'm not too sure?
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I agree with that, rob. My Tritons made a big SQ boost in my system, and made even stock or "low-end" value pc's more than adequate for even my power amp (14B2). So, hi-end cords costing hundreds have become moot in my system.
Amps do "sound" fuller when warmed up for about 30 mins. before listening imho.
With tongue-in-cheek, if central heating proves expen$ive, perhaps a tubed amp will serve as a cost-effective area heater for those damp Ontario winter nights. :lol: :green: You may even feel adventurous, and get to see some indoor fireworks ....
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Living in an older centrally located building in TO which still has a few un-grounded receptacles and probably overly polluted power lines I've occasionally considered getting a proper power conditioner...just not too sure which one...comes down to budget and which components will benefit the most.... probably all.
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I think a decent p-cond is a systems-wide upgrade -- as is a good DAC that's fed by lots of players. The Venom 8-outlet may make a budget-sensitive positive improvement, but I haven't tried it.
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I think a decent p-cond is a systems-wide upgrade --......
Have to agree...back in the 80s had some Triplite stuff but times have changed...I've seen a few used Bryston Bit 20s which should suffice or even a 15...I'll check out the Venoms.
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..I'll check out the Venoms.
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649443527-shunyata-researchvenom-ps8-defender-and-diamond-back-power-cord/
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or...
https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649435450-bryston-bit-20-black-17-faceplate/
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Looks enticing...45 days on the block, though :scratch:
The seller should really show the rear panel close-up.
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As an isolation transformer this would be my biggest concern..."The outlets they are plugged into should be sufficient to provide the current to operate them without tripping circuit breakers within your junction panel"
The 20 may be overkill, literally and I may not be able to turn my lights on simultaneously....the 15 might be kinder on my fuse box. :oops:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181685)
and I may find one within my budget...
https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649432555-bryston-bit-15/
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Last time I asked, I think you can still use a BIT 20 on a 15A circuit. It'd be good to get re-clarification from Bryston.
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Also, I have continued to use the stock unshielded generic power cables with the Torus. Sounds right to me.
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Last time I asked, I think you can still use a BIT 20 on a 15A circuit. It'd be good to get re-clarification from Bryston.
I was exaggerating slightly but I believe I've read somewhere :scratch: ....that to take advantage of what the Bit 20 fully offers a 20A circuit would be best.
I had the same concerns with my lines when I first acquired a 4BSST.... but it ran fine.... but now that I've rolled back my power to a 3BSST sq a 15 BIT should be more than sufficient even with my center channel and all the associated components.
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Yes, you need a 20A circuit to take full advantage of BIT20. In my case, I was thinking of getting a BIT20 to run my desktop 15A circuit for a bit of time and then to move the BIT20 to a dedicated 20A circuit later on in the main room. I wanted to know if it was safe to use the BIT20 temporarily on a 15A circuit. I ended up with a BIT15 for the 15A circuit.
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...I'll check out the Venoms.
rob, have you seen this site and review?
http://wallofsound.ca/audioreviews/shunyata/
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Yes, you need a 20A circuit to take full advantage of BIT20. In my case, I was thinking of getting a BIT20 to run my desktop 15A circuit for a bit of time and then to move the BIT20 to a dedicated 20A circuit later on in the main room. I wanted to know if it was safe to use the BIT20 temporarily on a 15A circuit. I ended up with a BIT15 for the 15A circuit.
Hi Zoom
Yes using the BIT 20 on a 15 amp circuit is what I recommend for a number of reasons.
James
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rob, have you seen this site and review?
http://wallofsound.ca/audioreviews/shunyata/
No I haven't ..at least his set up looks more like a snake den....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181845)
...than my rats nest. :oops:...one day when I have some time though.......
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all those criss-crossing cords can't be good for SQ. Magnetic fields, wire as antennae, etc etc
ymmv as always.
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all those criss-crossing cords can't be good for SQ. Magnetic fields, wire as antennae, etc etc
ymmv as always.
Wouldn't have been able to to that years ago without undesirable consequences...thank god for shielding. :thumb:
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Yes, you need a 20A circuit to take full advantage of BIT20. In my case, I was thinking of getting a BIT20 to run my desktop 15A circuit for a bit of time and then to move the BIT20 to a dedicated 20A circuit later on in the main room. I wanted to know if it was safe to use the BIT20 temporarily on a 15A circuit. I ended up with a BIT15 for the 15A circuit.
You can't plug a 20A component into a 15A circuit, the plug won't fit.
But anyway a 15A circuit will provide all the current most hi-fi setups require. Large Class "A" amps and large home theaters would be the exceptions.
A 15A circuit will provide upwards of 150 Amps for a large fraction of a second! Hi-fi amps don't draw the high continuous current that trips breakers.
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You can't plug a 20A component into a 15A circuit, the plug won't fit.
But anyway a 15A circuit will provide all the current most hi-fi setups require. Large Class "A" amps and large home theaters would be the exceptions.
A 15A circuit will provide upwards of 150 Amps for a large fraction of a second! Hi-fi amps don't draw the high continuous current that trips breakers.
Hi, I remember reading that there was an adapter cable required to make it work.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181959)
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Hi
Yes we have power cables with the correct plugs on both ends.
james
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I have the BIT15 and all my components plugged into it. Ever since getting the BIT 15 I have noticed that the bass response from by Thiel CS 3.6 speakers is real uninteresting and attenuated compared with the treble frequencies. I have the 4B SST2 amp. My interconnects are XLR Analysis Plus - I don't recall which one, though I think they were like 300$ or more per meter/pair.
I'm beginning to wonder is the BIT 15 limiting the dynamics of the 4B SST2 to the Thiel speakers. I also have Analysis Plus speaker wire with spade lug connectors. Please advise. I have not gone back to plugging the amp into the wall to test my theory yet. I do have peace of mind that my CD player (Sony XA-5400 ES) will not fry any more display control boards due to brown outs (this happened once while under warranty and once while out of warranty) . But I do not believe that the sound quality is any better from the BIT 15 - right now I would say it is much worse. Please advise...
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How long have you been using the BIT15 with the current setup?
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I've had the BIT 15 for almost 2 years. I leave my system on continuously. I use the stock power cords.
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Okay, good to know and you answered my question about using stock power cables (unshielded?). The only thing else left to ask about power cables would be that the gauge is 14 (AWG) for the Torus and amplifier?
As far as interconnects go, I'm not sure what the construction looks like of your Analysis Plus. Do you have any standard interconnects like Mogami 2549? I find that along with Grimm TPR are a good cheap solution to keep around as a reference. These are neutral sounding for me and have never had a problem with them tonally. I got them custom made for ~$20ish each. I did find one of my other more expensive interconnects a bit less suitable (Mogami 3173 and SCIN effect). I'm sure there's probably nothing wrong with your interconnects, but just throwing some ideas.
Maybe try readjusting the speakers (distance/toe-in)? You can put some masking tape around the spot where they are, so you can experiment and always have the option of returning back to the same starting point. If you have a headphone rig, that's also a great way to supplement and confirm whether what you're hearing on speakers is translating on headphones or not. You don't have to worry about the room at all.
If you have a picture of the room and/or the rack, that could be a good start. For example, I've moved the Torus and my Class D away from the rest of my gear, and to the side, rather than having them all vertically lined up in the same rack with all their toroids matching up.
Maybe take a look at the wiring again to see if it's a jungle back there or if the signal and power cables are stuck together? Simple plugging and replugging of all the cables to clean up the connectors. Just some ideas. :thumb:
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I have the BIT15 and all my components plugged into it. Ever since getting the BIT 15 I have noticed that the bass response from by Thiel CS 3.6 speakers is real uninteresting......I have the 4B SST2 amp......I'm beginning to wonder is the BIT 15 limiting the dynamics of the 4B SST2 to the Thiel speakers. ........... But I do not believe that the sound quality is any better from the BIT 15 - right now I would say it is much worse. Please advise...
hi masi61,
here's my 2 cents...
I have a 4BSST2 as well...and recently aded a BIT20 to my system. The BIT20 made a positive difference.
Prior to making the plunge, I did some research on the Bryston BIT power conditioners, and i determined the BIT 15 would be too small to handle the large power demands needed to drive the 4B. I think your observations are legit - and you may need to either upgrade to the BIT 20 - or, as you suggest, plug the 4B directly into the wall.
Good luck!
TJ
here's a pic...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182469)
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Hi Folks,
For any amp larger than the 3B we recommend the 20 Amp BIT. Otherwise plug the 4B and larger into the wall.
james
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Hi James
Thanks for that clarification. It is very helpful for those of considering power conditioning with Bryston (particularly amps) equipment.
I apologize if this question has been asked (and answered) before, but does a BIT 20 require a dedicated 20 Amp circuit? I seem to recall reading somewhere that Bryston offers an adapter for the different plug arrangements. That would seem to indicate that there is some flexibility. :scratch:
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Hi James
Thanks for that clarification. It is very helpful for those of considering power conditioning with Bryston (particularly amps) equipment.
I apologize if this question has been asked (and answered) before, but does a BIT 20 require a dedicated 20 Amp circuit? I seem to recall reading somewhere that Bryston offers an adapter for the different plug arrangements. That would seem to indicate that there is some flexibility. :scratch:
Hi
Yes the beauty of the BIT 20 is you can use it on a 15 amp circuit with the adapter cord and then if you decide to go with a 20 amp service later just change the power cord.
james
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Thank you guys for your replies. I wish my local dealer had steered me to the BIT 20. When I ordered mine all they did was take my order - I was flying blind and made the assumption that the “high power” outlets would have sufficient current to not hinder the bass dynamics, apparently I was wrong.
I bought the 19” model with the black face plate. Is there any chance that my dealer could swap this one out for the BIT 20 with same 19” black face plate and I pay the difference?
I know this is probably not going to happen but I did pay around $1850 USD for the BIT 15. I think when I looked on the Bryston website it said that only the 17” is now available.
I’m headed over to Hanson Audio tomorrow to pick up my Bryston remote that got damaged when the AA battery exploded internally. The remote is 6 years old, apparently it was covered under warranty - this is awesome!!
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In the past I have plugged my 4B-SST² into my Furman REF20i. And at times into the wall.
Of late the amp has sounded better from the wall. It actually varies over the years.
Another thing I always notice (since I just checked the sound today) is that the amplifier is FAR more interesting (sparkle is the term I would use) with the back switches set to 29dB and NOT 23dB! (Even though I used balanced IC.)
When I flip them back to 23dB the sound just gets sterile.(in comparison, just in comparison!)
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Thanks for your reply. I just checked and I have the gain set to 29 on both sides. Previously I accidentally had one set at 23db while the other was set at 29db. I was freaking out because I had to turn the balance knob way to one side and I made all kinds of erroneous conclusions about what was wrong.
I’ve resolved that. But am curious about this amp issue with the BIT 15. I’m encouraged that I will be hopefully getting some answers soon. Unfortunately I have lost confidence in my listening (if you know what I mean). I guess you have to get back into the hobby just like anything else.
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An Isolation transformer is what is needed in lieu of conditioning Bryston. They got the power supply right but the Electric company still allows so much hash on the line only an Isolation transformer will do right. Does not Bryston make one ?? Easy peasy.
charles
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BTW there are power conditioners available that absolutely do not rob anything from power amps. Just need to know about them.
charles
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What is the maximum peak current draw of the 4B3?
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From Bryston website, back page of owner's manual 4B3
Power
Consumption
(Watts)Bridged: 900W 8Ω: 1700 watts
SO putting out 900 watts at 8ohms in bridged mode will cost you 1700 watts
That seems to be the highst spec.
Considering peaks and the 900 watts is at the distortion figures of ratings..
I would bet you could try to suck 2000 watts at a moment under extraordinary circumstances.
(you better be wearing ear protection. LOL)
Most likely your lights are gonna dim in unison with the music.
Plug the amp into the wall. If you want, use an aftermarket cord
There are some Furman with a stiffening cap. The stiffening cap supports the power supply under heavy amperage draw
I own one, the Furman REF20i. and I alternate my Bryston 4B-SST² from the Furman or the wall depending on whatI want. Of late I have been from the wall more.
From the Furman is more high frequency finess but a little thinner mids and lows... from the wall more mid/low range guts.only a small change. but I can hear it.
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What is the maximum peak current draw of the 4B3?
Does it really matter? You will never reach that point in a household setting. When you play that loud your windows (all of them, even the tiny ones in the basement) will be history. The first Watt is important. Any Watt over that is just peaks.
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Does it really matter? You will never reach that point in a household setting. When you play that loud your windows (all of them, even the tiny ones in the basement) will be history. The first Watt is important. Any Watt over that is just peaks.
I think it can matter. Some folks regularly cause their amps to hit the yellow clipping warnings.
More so with a 4B than a pair of 7Bs.. Sure they are on the way to hearing loss. But that is their right. If the amp is hitting clipping, it is using more than the green light peaks, and thus may be using that maximum power draw.
(as an aside. I wonder if the amp will 'clip' with weak AC power FASTER or at lower wattage, than if the amp has all the AC power from the wall it can possibly use? this might be worth a separate thread??)
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Following up on James's recommendation:
For any amp larger than the 3B we recommend the 20 Amp BIT. Otherwise plug the 4B and larger into the wall.
james
I would like to plug my 4B3 directly into the wall outlet rather than a surge protector, but my power cord is too short for the location of the amplifier. I have been looking for a 15 ft (5 M) replacement cable for the 4B3 (currently Volex 386A 15 Amp 125V 2 M length). According to the Volex website, the 386A cords are 10 Gauge. I cannot find an equivalent cable in the required length. Can I use a narrower cable (e.g. 14 Gauge) without compromising the SQ of the 4B? Ultimately, I would like to get a 20A bit as per James recommendation, but I am looking for an interim solution. Does anyone have any suggestions? I appreciate any helpful comments.
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Hi,
Actually the 14 gauge cable is certified for 15amps, 12 gauge would be for 20amp. So the 10 gauge would be even heavier duty. I would think you would be ok with the 10 gauge at a 5 meter length.
Check with James to be sure.
Enjoy the Music, I love my Bryston set up!
Mike
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Following up on James's recommendation:
I would like to plug my 4B3 directly into the wall outlet rather than a surge protector, but my power cord is too short for the location of the amplifier. I have been looking for a 15 ft (5 M) replacement cable for the 4B3 (currently Volex 386A 15 Amp 125V 2 M length). According to the Volex website, the 386A cords are 10 Gauge. I cannot find an equivalent cable in the required length. Can I use a narrower cable (e.g. 14 Gauge) without compromising the SQ of the 4B? Ultimately, I would like to get a 20A bit as per James recommendation, but I am looking for an interim solution. Does anyone have any suggestions? I appreciate any helpful comments.
I use Encore cords from Silver Sonic (DH Labs). I found them to be quality, shielded cords. The link is below.
https://silversonic.com/products/power-cables/encore/
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Just listen to James that simple. You may consider a DC blocker over a conditioner. Also consider conditioning your digital first. Separate All digital from analog and be happy. A big culprit most do not address properly.
charles
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An Isolation transformer is what is needed in lieu of conditioning Bryston. They got the power supply right but the Electric company still allows so much hash on the line only an Isolation transformer will do right. Does not Bryston make one ?? Easy peasy.
charles
The best by far, are large Isolation Transformers permanently hard-wired into the main electrical system for the entire hi-fi setup. Connected as a Separately Derived System this is a task for a skilled electrician.
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Hi
Yes we make Isolation transformers - BIT Products.
http://bryston.com/products/other/BIT20.html
james