Thoughts on Pete Riggle VTAF and Rega P5

watercourse · « **on:** 18 Jun 2011, 07:32 pm »

So I have been experimenting with the 3-point mount VTAF on my RB700 arm and Rega P5 for about 4 months now, and am writing to report on what I've found. I had already added a Groovetracer Reference subplatter, platter, and counterweight/stub and used the Herbie's Way Excellent II mat with SuperSonic stabilizer. I am using a Shelter 901 with Soundsmith retip and ruby cantilever with a Heed Quasar pre.

I'll cut to the chase, the VTAF simply makes the RB700/P5 a much higher resolution machine. From top to bottom, details are now much cleaner than with the stock mount, and this is most noticeable in a wider and deeper soundstage, proper bass weight and delicacy, and when you get the VTA set right, the imaging just locks into place. I'm more of a set and forget kind of guy, but when you dial in the right VTA the improvement is really hard to ignore. Luckily, I've found that there is a similar setting for most standard pressings, so there's not much fiddling needed, and adjusting the VTA up for 180g or heavier pressings is really easy. Not a problem. Tracking is also vastly improved: my setup can now pass the HiFi News test record tracking #3 test with no problems now.

An important point: the 3-point mount adds a significant amount of height above the stock mount. Because of the extra height, I first made a 1/4" thick mat out of the same foam material as Herbie's mat to make up for the difference. However, the spindle barely protruded above the LP center hole. Even though I don't use a clamp, it didn't look so great. But there was no mistaking that it sounded much better than the stock mount, and tracked much better as well, that I thought I'd try an alternate setup.

I next experimented with a small rectangle of Herbie's Grungebuster material mounted between the cartridge and headshell without the 1/4" thick mat. However, it didn't offset the height enough to give me full use of the VTAF range.

I next combined the Herbie's Grungebuster piece with one of the thinner brass shims (#2) provided with the VTAF, and got the full usable range from the VTAF. However, to me, the combo was a bit overdamped compared to the 1/4" foam mat alone.

Finally, I tried just a thicker brass shim (#4), and have been using it ever since. It has no sonic penalties, doesn't take away from the P5's sleek look, and the VTAF unit adds a touch of rugged classiness with its custom lacquered nickel finish.

I have only interacted with Pete as a customer, but I've found him to be a great person, inventor, and craftsman. I learned quite a bit about turntables, dedication to art, service, and technique, and life in general (Pete is a 70-plus fly fisherman) while fine-tuning my setup with Pete's help. He is an asset to the audio community and has helped take my P5 to another level. If you were on the fence about the VTAF especially with the higher-level Rega tonearms, take the risk, this one's worth it.

After I installed the VTAF I also rewired the arm with the Cardas copper Incognito kit. The rewire also brought the performance up a notch in overall definition and ability to reveal especially in the top end, and even better bass. But what was most impressive is the silence that I now get from the phono source now that the arm is grounded. With a more silent source, the details are much easier to discern and increases the sense of ease and musicality of the entire setup. One gripe: the RCA connectors are a bit cheap for the price - they need to be retightened every now and then to maintain a hold on my preamp RCA jacks. In hindsight, you might do just as well DIY-ing this one if you've got the skills and the Cardas copper litz wire.

PS If you have a Rega deck and haven't tried out the Groovetracer subplatter - do so. This and the VTAF were the most satisfying tweaks to my P5, after upgrading the cartridge, aligning it correctly, and adding the TT-PSU.

PPS Not affiliated with Groovetracer or Pete Riggle or Rega for that matter.

Happy trails,
Wilson

orthobiz · « **Reply #1 on:** 18 Jun 2011, 08:11 pm »

Cool. Now for some pics...

Paul

watercourse · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 Jun 2011, 09:16 pm »

orthobiz · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 11:48 am »

Now those are some pics!
Looks terrific! Thanks.

Paul

watercourse · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 04:28 pm »

Thanks Paul, ask and you shall receive!
A couple of other notes on the install. It was a bit difficult to get to exactly 222mm pivot-to-spindle distance, even though I spent a couple of hours hand-sanding to widen the hole in the plinth. Because of this, protractors that are based on the 222mm standard will not work. I used the AccuTrak universal arc protractor (http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml) and it worked better than the Mint LP, even though I was within 0.5mm of the Rega standard. I may return to this project at some point to get it just right. Those who have the right tools may be able to get it right the first time.
Also, people may have read my other posts about problems isolating vibrations from the San Francisco light rail system, unaffectionately known as "MUNI" to those who are familiar (Joe Muni, if you are reading this, straighten up and fly right or you will go the way of the dinosaurs. Read up on LA's extinct RTD line if you don't believe me - it can happen to YOU. Now back to the subject at hand). This is the reason for the Herbie's Hal-O dampers, which were quite effective at controlling the gross vibrations.
To offset the additional weight on the tonearm, I had to add two 10g weights attached to the back of the GT counterweight, which I stealthily kept out of the photo. These are blu-tacked on and are strictly temporary as I wait for some new plug-in weights from GT that are heavier than the 150g. As a happy coincidence, the extra weight increased the effective mass of the RB700, which actually made the Shelter 901 sound more "solid" than with the standard mass. Good for me!
When I receive my heavier brass weights from GT next week, I will post new photos with the "nautical" themed P5. Also as an aside, you may notice that the VTAF's standard brass finish is either lacquered brass or turned brass. The finish on mine is nickel plated and then lacquered, which I think adds a very nice silvery luster to the brass. No additional charge from Pete Riggle for this. I'll have to see how the two brass finishes look next to each other.
Lastly, I am running the RB700 in spring-free mode: maxed out the VTF dial to 3+, which disengages the spring, and balanced only with the counterweight itself. Sounds better, you should try this on your Rega arm if you haven't already.

bacobits1 · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 05:56 pm »

Great shots! Pete can use those on his site since he has none with the 3 point mounting VTAF on a Rega Table.

I have a blown out Groovetracer upgraded P5 also and was looking at this last week.
I don't need the VTA adjuster right now, I use 2> 2mm shims and it is perfect. Pete's VTAF looks higher than that so I decided against it. I didn't want to mess with anything for height on the platter end. Does the dust cover close with the VTAF?
I did drill through the plinth and installed 2" stainless screws and nuts. That is a very good cheap tweak.

It was about 2 months ago I spoke to Frank at GT and he said I would have to buy a whole new counterweight to make it heavier. Is he making those brass weights special?

Back to Pete, he's great to deal with and talk with. Very knowledgeable too.

The souped up P5 does sound very good. I have a double pulley coming in next. I will run 2 white belts. This will basically be a P7 without the platter.
That is going to be it for awhile. I don't feel rewiring of the RB700 is needed at all.

Enjoy!

D

watercourse · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 06:36 pm »

@Bacobits - thanks, I'll send the photos to Pete - great suggestion.

I absolutely agree with you on drilling through the plinth. I had a minor problem with the azimuth being slightly off on the arm which caused tracking problems, and drilled through for that reason, but this didn't give enough adjustment. I am now back to using the Grungebuster material to differentially tighten the mounting bolts to adjust azimuth. Pete had been designing an AZOF - Azimuth on the Fly - but is still working this out now.

I also am one to keep things simple and not complicate matters, but I'm looking at all these tweaks as a way to better understand the mechanics of turntables, and posting so that people can learn from my experience.

re: GT - I think this is a one-off or something he had lying around, because Frank told me he doesn't offer brass now, only tungsten. But you might ask him.

What again is the double pulley, is this a Rega thing? I saw your post at A-gon, and responded a month too late. My belt needs changing as it squeaks now.

re: Incognito rewire - the guy I bought the P5 from monkeyed with the RCA ends and really muffed one channel up from simply detaching the cable from his phono stage. Sonny (Tuan) and I had to reattach the wires and saw how few strands there were in the stock wire - like, honestly less than 10 strands per channel. THere is a significant change in resolution after the rewire, but as with all things that are more revealing, this is a double-edged sword with badly recorded LPs. So, sometimes less is more, ignorance is bliss, etc. but there is no turning back once you've heard the improved bass resolution.

watercourse · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 06:49 pm »

Whoops forgot to answer some questions of yours: yes, I can close the dust cover with the VTAF. However, I remove the dust cover completely when playing, and only put it back on when not playing. The brass shim helps keep the height down to the lower end of the VTAF range.
Also, in case this isn't clear, the VTAF does more for playback than just adjusting VTA - the additional isolation from the plinth really helped my vibration problem, but helped with improving the solidity of the soundstage and imaging as well. Ask me if you want to know more.
As for the mat and GT platter, because I have excessive vibrations coming from a light rail system nearby, I need additional isolation that the mat provides.

bacobits1 · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 06:51 pm »

The double Pulley is from Michale Lim. I think he is in Malaysia.
He has a Blog site. So ordering is done through E Mail.
http://lpturntables.blogspot.com/2011/04/double-or-dual-metal-pulley-upgrade-for.html

For $40, I have not seen anyone else offering them, I thought it was reasonable. The belts can be purchased in England ($36) and cheaper than here at Music Direct.

I have had 3 RB300's and "Incognitoed" all of them. So I agree with re-wiring that arm and makes a large difference.

I'm still evaluating the GT Acrylic Platter and TTweights clamp. It does change the sound quite a bit. Not bad at all, just different as all these changes.

As far as Isolation here, I use a 50lb. Granite slab, which people frown upon on a Rega table. I also changed the feet to #3 BDR cones and bases.
Of course they frown on installing a DL103R on one too.
Just BS, but only if you know what your doing.

D

watercourse · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 10:08 pm »

OK Bacobits, it sounds like you've got much more experience tweaking Rega's than I do. Thanks for the info and the link. Please report back on the double pulley and dual white belts. Actually, I'd like to know how you get the stock pulley off, as it doesn't appear obvious to me how to do this.

And honestly, if we listened to those folks who frown on doing things outside of the "accepted" way with Regas, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all, there wouldn't be many different perspectives to share, people would be completely satisfied buying a Rega table within their specified budget and want for nothing in their all-Rega music systems. Wouldn't that be cool in a Stepford kind of way?

Well, I'm a scientist, so I experiment.

FWIW, I thought that the stock glass platter had a harder top end and a midbass bump, with less bass extension than the GT. The GT has a more linear response, which is evident even using different mats on both platters. I switched back and forth a couple of times over a year or so to confirm any differences between platters and mats.

I also borrowed Sonny's TTweights lightweight clamp, which I thought smeared the sound a bit when coupled with the glass platter, although this is what it's supposed to fix. This was not noticeable with the GT platter. Sonny also filled it with lead shot, which makes it different than stock, making it heavier. Add this variable into the mix. Either way, this made me concerned about the extra weight on the bearing, so I stopped using it. Let me know what you hear.

I will be getting a 35-lb maple block next week for my last-ditch effort at isolating the train vibrations before embarking on a more serious approach: ceiling suspension.

orientalexpress · « **Reply #10 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 10:28 pm »

Hey Wilson,speaking of Isolation,have you though of Sandbox?

lapsan

watercourse · « **Reply #11 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 10:31 pm »

Yes, but I'm afraid my kittens might like the sand box more than the Rega does - they are now just starting to get into things they shouldn't, and they really like daddy's speakers and mommy's plants right now...

bacobits1 · « **Reply #12 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 10:57 pm »

How about a wall mount setup? With something from Herbie's under it?

I think the Glass and Felt, no weight to sound a bit laid back and warmer. Still nice. Much more detailed and a bit more air at the top end, tight bass, with the 7 oz. TT Clamp on the GT acrylic, no mat. At 7 oz. for the weight I would not worry about the GT supplied Zirconium bearing. I can't say things are quieter because from the beginning the stock P5 is very quiet with the TTPS. That goes for groove noise especially, one of the quietest. That was also stated in reviews too. This table just kills my Basis 1400 with the souped up RB 300 I had previously.

I did hear more PRAT with the single White/now Beige belt. Subtle, but still there. 2 belts is supposed to start up like a SL1200. We'll see.

I'm like you, I like experimenting with this table, and you can hear all of it. May I add at a reasonable cost. I had a VIP HW19MKIII and it was absurd what they wanted for the upgrades. Just get a new/used table with the upgrades.

I was concerned about taking that pulley off too without damaging the motor.
You have to buy a mini gear puller for RC model cars to take that pulley off, it was like $10 off of E bay. The new pulley has a set screw.
I'm waiting on the pulley so I didn't try it yet. If you decided to try this double pulley I would send the puller to you so no need to purchase.

I will be back with some comments.

Kittens? We have them too.

D

watercourse · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Jun 2011, 12:20 am »

I'd love to try a wall mount, but the walls in my rental unit have nice embellishments and moldings from the 1930's just where a wall mount should and could go.

Seems like we concur about the glass platter and GT sound (the midbass hump meant a warmer presentation to me, but I thought the felt mat was bettered by the Herbie's mat).

So, the beige belt, was that the silicone job from Michael Lim, or somewhere else?

I may take you up on your offer if you feel the double pulley tweak is worth it. I sometimes hear what I think is wow/flutter on some LPs, and wonder if this could improve that. Or I might find out that it is a badly pressed LP.

I had to re-arrange the components after Jellyroll decided this was a nice warm spot to camp out in.

orthobiz · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Jun 2011, 12:47 am »

You know we can use these kitty pics against you when you sell your equipment "from a smoke-free, pet-free environment!!!"

Paul

bacobits1 · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Jun 2011, 12:54 am »

HA!
No, I never use that line in my Ad's.
I have 2 others, this one is with me when listening, he's 16.

D

watercourse · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Jun 2011, 02:56 pm »

I'm glad I didn't send the one where I'm using the P5 as a lazy susan to pour out margaritas, or to give the cats a haircut. Those Regas are really useful!

neobop · « **Reply #17 on:** 1 Jul 2011, 12:13 pm »

I was looking through the forum on Agon and saw a thread about the Riggle VTAF. Much to my surprise I read some of these same posts, at least they seemed the same. Congratulations Watercourse on upgrading your 501 to a 901.

I almost bought a custom made VTAF for my Sonus Formula 4. I like VTA on the fly. I was unfamiliar with the VTAF and discussed it with Riggle. After going to his web site and seeing how it worked, I had my doubts if a light weight arm was a suitable candidate. After his telling me about the height problem and the supplied spacers, I decided against it. The height is very easy to adjust on that arm and I read reports by people with Rega arms having stability problems. This height problem seems like it could be serious. Here's a post from that Agon thread:

"Well...I ask for some help. I have tried to install the VTAF in my P9 and it does not work, I mean, the total weight increases in 11mm ( I bought the VTAF with the base in order to avoid to make a new hole in the P9 pitch ). Even using differente kind of spacers, I can not achieve a good VTA. It is still too height. In addition, the screws supplied are longer than needed, do not allowing the correct adjustment. I have already contacted Pete but, even showing a good attention, I was not able to solve the problem yet. At the end, I am not using it and I am really frustated. I will appreciate any help."

The other stability problems I read about elsewhere, involved the use of the device on the fly and azimuth going out of whack and jerky motion. These were mostly with Rega arms. The lack of a solid fixing point for the arm pillar concerns me. With an arm of considerable mass maybe you can get away with it. Bass response would probably increase somewhat, and people report that, but I would think that tight and detailed could easily go to boomy.

I just wanted to tell the other side of what seems like an endorsement of the VTAF. I've never used one and I'm glad I didn't buy a custom made one for my light weight arm. If the bearing housing is too high on that unipivot, the arm won't work. There seems to be no way around that except to drop the height of your armboard. It's somewhat disconcerting that Riggle still tried to sell me a VTAF even though it seems unsuitable. I hate spending money and doing considerable work making armboards and such, only to return the item and waste all that time and effort.
neo

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1209072610&openfrom&1&4#1

bacobits1 · « **Reply #18 on:** 1 Jul 2011, 12:49 pm »

Here is another VTA adjuster I considered, but I don't think it is "on the fly" adjustable.

http://www.cabezon.eu/product_info.php?products_id=120

I would never adjust the tonearm on the fly anyway for fear of zinging it across the platter.

This one also has the height starting pretty high because of the structure to mount your arm on it. More than the 4 MM total I use.
My thinking is, starting too high creates problems with the VTA to begin with. It can't be low enough to start at level.
I use the 2> 2 MM spacers and it is perfect now at 4MM. Both mechanisms look to be both over 4MM.
What do you do then? You can't really or don't want to change the height of the platter?? I do have a tapped 3g spacer on my DL103R at the cartridge end.

So I decided against both of these VTA adjusters for the 3 point mounting.
2" Stainless screws with nuts through the plinth works very nice for the sound.

I like the way things sound now, but probably like the old simpler Rega post/ nut mounts better.

As always, YMMV.

Pete is a pretty stand up guy and I know he would let you return anything that didn't work out.

Let me ask this. Wilson in your last pict is that the lowest setting you have on the arm mount? It will go down no further? That plate has to be tapped for the special length screws to tighten and not go through it so they would not stick out stopping it.

D

watercourse · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Jul 2011, 04:23 pm »

@ Neobop and Bacobits - good questions.

I also spoke with Hernani (at Agon) by email to try to help him with my VTAF height offset solutions. Hernani hasn't even attempted to install the VTAF at this point, so I don't think he was commenting on its actual utility with the P9. He basically has two choices: raise the height of the platter, and/or put a shim between the cartridge and headshell. (I use the latter approach currently, although I've tried both ways).

I gave him a link to McMaster-Carr to source the silicone foam material for a thicker mat, but he was unsure of this, even though this is the identical material to the Herbie's mat that he is presently using (Steve @ Herbie's told me that this is his source). He has basically decided that installing the VTAF, and its additional height, is an insurmountable issue for him. Also bear in mind that he got from Pete an additional sleeve that allowed him to use the VTAF in the existing hole, without need to widen it - but this adds more height to the standard 3-point mount VTAF, and needs greater associated offset. As for the cartridge shim, Hernani was unsure that it would not add colorations. My Grungebuster and brass shim combo adds no noticeable colorations.

Hernani doesn't want to modify the P9 plinth at all. I understand and respect his choice. However, if I wanted to reverse the VTAF mod and go back to plinth mounting, I could still do that. And Hernani could probably return the VTAF, but he's still searching for a satisfactory solution in the meantime.

Bear in mind that in my setup, I need to increase the effective mass and damping to get the most out of the low compliance 901 (good eye, Neobop, this is a new and well-loved addition to the household). So the Hal-O dampers and Grungebuster sheet serve multiple purposes here: additional height, weight, and damping. And yes, the 901 likes its back end down that low, as did the 501.

Yes, the bass extension and quality is significantly better with the VTAF, as is the tracking IME. It is never boomy unless it's recorded that way. To me, this alone is worth the cost and effort. I'm a bass hound, and listen to acoustic jazz quite a bit. Dave Holland sounds like himself. Getting the VTAF right on helps with soundstaging, imaging, and overall tonal balance - really icing on the cake for me, as I set it to a VTA for non-heavy pressings, and only adjust the VTA up for thicker LPs. Gotta love those clearance bins.

As for the instability problems, jerkiness - I don't adjust on the fly very much, but I can attest to needing a steady hand to do this, or you will move the whole turntable enough to cause the tonearm to move, and/or hit the tonearm or counterweight while adjusting. My neck hairs stand up just thinking about it

Needs a light touch for sure, even with the teflon coating. But if I accidentally bump my TT, VTAF or not, this will also occur. So VTAF doesn't make the arm LESS stable, I'm not sure if that's what people are implying. They may have widened the hole too much as well, and just need to shim it and stabilize the post in the plinth

@ Bacobits - I still have >3mm adjustment before I bottom out. See pics, but realize this is taken from an oblique angle. Those with sharp eyes will notice the new brass weights in the "nauticized" GT counterweight, and the drilled-through hole from the standard plinth mount underneath the VTAF adjustment wheel - no NOT visible from top. Am thinking about plating the brass weights to match the VTAF.

Finally, Pete is a standup guy. He sent screws for the 3-point mount that were too long initially, which prevented full travel of the VTAF from being achieved. I didn't notice this at first, and when I thought I hit bottom of the adjustment range, I found out that it was actually the screws protruding that were bottoming out. The screws scratched the surface of the adjustment wheel, and Pete replaced both the wheel and the screws (after I sent him the correct length). The new wheel also had the custom nickel lacquer over brass, no additional charge. He unconditionally guarantees his products, even if you simply don't like it.

Hopefully I answered all your burning questions, otherwise let me know if I didn't.