AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Spatial Audio on 21 Oct 2016, 12:46 am
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Hello Everyone,
As promised, here is a short introduction to the new Spatial X1 Uniwave speaker system. Many audiophiles have asked me how the X1 will compare sonically to other superclass speakers near the X1's $100,000 list price. I can confidently state that it equals or outperforms the best in its price class. The difference being that the X1 package includes a Porsche 911 Carrera ! :D Just a joke to illustrate the ludicrous pricing of today's top speakers. More expensive does not necessarily mean better! The X1 is the fullest expression to date of my approach to speaker design that I have spent most of my life developing. I think the most interesting thing about this speaker is that its just fun to listen to. All I want to do now is sit around and listen, dance and sing, just like the old college days. Just forget about hardware and relive your music on a physical/emotional level. Its almost like there are no speakers in the room - just energy. The combination of a unified wave launch from a single Beryllium diaphragm plus killer dynamics, bass impact, speed and accuracy is pretty scary. Its a lot like a large horn system without all the problems. The X1 also sets new technical standards in areas such as polar response and phase accuracy that the $100K competitors can't even remotely approach.
The open architecture approach allows flexibility to upgrade later using the solutions developed by Vinnie Rossi. Detailed pricing will be on our website shortly. Orders are stacking up already, so at least place a refundable deposit if you think you will want a pair. Orders will be processed in chronological order. The first 6 pairs are heading to Europe and Asia in November, with serial production starting in December. Lead times will hopefully be around 4 weeks starting in December. The world debut will be at the Munich show next spring. We are already swamped with magazine requests for review, so there should be plenty of independent commentary available in 2017. The first major review will likely be in STEREOPLAY Magazine in Germany, which is one the very best audio magazines in the world.
I would also like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for your enthusiasm and moral support over the years. Many audiophiles and industry veterans realize that I am making a long term, concerted effort to push the art forward with new and effective ideas, so your kind comments have been very much appreciated.
Clayton Shaw
Spatial Audio Lab
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Very nice Clayton. Looking forward to hearing it!
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What deposit is required to get in the build queue?
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Hey Jason,
Some minimal amount like $1000, so we can start projecting how many drivers and other parts to order.
Clayton
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Hi Tom,
Thanks - the website will have a lot more images showing some different colors and woods. Its a beautiful speaker in real life.
Clayton
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Hey Jason,
Some minimal amount like $1000, so we can start projecting how many drivers and other parts to order.
Clayton
OK, when are these available for audition in UT?
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By mid December I think - I can be more accurate once we know the drivers are on the way. The 18" Acoustic Elegance woofer has a lead time involved.
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By mid December I think - I can be more accurate once we know the drivers are on the way. The 18" Acoustic Elegance woofer has a lead time involved.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm
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How low can they go?
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Oops - failed to look above. :duh:
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Looks Awesome :o :o
Can't wait to hear it!
Best,
Anand.
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+1 one on the above!
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Clayton,
Looks like another game changer.
Congrats!!
George
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Clayton,
Looks like another game changer.
Congrats!!
George
Hi George - Yes, this design should raise the bar significantly. I will be interested to see what you guys think of it.
Clayton
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Clayton,
Congratulations! All your success is well earned. I have no doubt the X1 will thrust you to the very pinnacle of innovative loudspeaker designers. Is it too late to put you on the Presidential ballot?
David
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+1 to all of the accolades above. Great job, Clayton. Really looking forward to seeing and hearing these.
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Clayton,
Congratulations! All your success is well earned. I have no doubt the X1 will thrust you to the very pinnacle of innovative loudspeaker designers. Is it too late to put you on the Presidential ballot?
David
Hey David - yes, as President, my first executive order will be that all box speakers be phased out by 2025 in the best interest of the nation :-)
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Clayton,
What minimum size room do you think is required for these? Obviously them being of CD design is a big factor but I'm curious to know if you think they will be even more forgiving then the already exceptional M3 based on the polar plots.
Also, when will the options be setup on the website so I can see the pricing and options to make a decision or should I just call you?
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Clayton,
That speaker looks badass.
Excited to hear this beast.
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I don't believe I have seen a commercial open baffle speaker with an 18 woofer before. A pair of those in most rooms should certainly get the bass covered!
Cool design, and great to see continued innovation in OB!
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Looks like a million dollars. If they sound as good as they look, it will be a giant killer. With a used Crown 1500 on the bottom and Tommy's DAC SMT integrated 36v on the top will give great sound for less than 1500 bucks for the amps.
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Looks like a million dollars. If they sound as good as they look, it will be a giant killer. With a used Crown 1500 on the bottom and Tommy's DAC SMT integrated 36v on the top will give great sound for less than 1500 bucks for the amps.
No offense, Tom, but I think those interested in going with this price range of speaker will be seeking more than good lower budget value/money performance. I'm thinking more like high quality SET up top, and a pair of Maraschino's or similar high quality class D on bottom...
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No offense, Tom, but I think those interested in going with this price range of speaker will be seeking more than good lower budget value/money performance. I'm thinking more like high quality SET up top, and a pair of Maraschino's or similar high quality class D on bottom...
But these would make great sound without spending mega bucks. Everyone here cannot afford 20k plus I would pit the maraschino amps to any SET amp made today on the top end.
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Clayton,
What minimum size room do you think is required for these? Obviously them being of CD design is a big factor but I'm curious to know if you think they will be even more forgiving then the already exceptional M3 based on the polar plots.
Also, when will the options be setup on the website so I can see the pricing and options to make a decision or should I just call you?
They should work in moderately sized rooms fine because of the open baffle bass and excellent pattern control. But I have not tried them yet in a room smaller than the lab testing room which is 13 x 20. Plus, we have the ability to adjust the bass, so it should be pretty flexible, but can't say more than that yet. The polar performance is probably the best on the market which really helps in smaller rooms.
I am not quite done with the pricing options yet, so lets wait a few days before talking about. I am hoping to have it up on the website sometime Sunday.
Top Secret: Vinnie and I are now working on a diabolical plan to create an integrated LIO/X1 monster of titanic performance. Its game over for the old paradigm.
Clayton
www.spatialaudio.us
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But these would make great sound without spending mega bucks. Everyone here cannot afford 20k plus I would pit the maraschino amps to any SET amp made today on the top end.
Maybe so, maybe not. I'm very happy with my Line Magnetic 518ia, and haven't heard a digital amp yet that could get close. But I haven't heard the maraschinos'. However, I have very much heard the Crown in my own system, and for the level of performance I'd be expecting from the X1, that Crown would be nowhere near my system, even as a bass/sub amp...
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Maybe so, maybe not. I'm very happy with my Line Magnetic 518ia, and haven't heard a digital amp yet that could get close.
I'll go one further, I have not heard a digital amp that beat a really fine class A/AB SS one, at least in my home.
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They should work in moderately sized rooms fine because of the open baffle bass and excellent pattern control. But I have not tried them yet in a room smaller than the lab testing room which is 13 x 20. Plus, we have the ability to adjust the bass, so it should be pretty flexible, but can't say more than that yet. The polar performance is probably the best on the market which really helps in smaller rooms.
I am not quite done with the pricing options yet, so lets wait a few days before talking about. I am hoping to have it up on the website sometime Sunday.
Top Secret: Vinnie and I are now working on a diabolical plan to create an integrated LIO/X1 monster of titanic performance. Its game over for the old paradigm.
Clayton
www.spatialaudio.us
As an extremely happy Spatial and Vinnie Rossi owner (who goes back to each of your earlier companies and offerings), I am glad to hear that you are guys are working on a possible "joint" offering.
George
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...
Top Secret: Vinnie and I are now working on a diabolical plan to create an integrated LIO/X1 monster of titanic performance. Its game over for the old paradigm.
Clayton
www.spatialaudio.us
Oh yeah, this would be very special :green:
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I'll go one further, I have not heard a digital amp that beat a really fine class A/AB SS one, at least in my home.
Same here until I got the Marashino Cherries with the 30 volt power supples in. I hear the Goldens are even better.
I would have never believed Class D could ever sound this good. A lot better than the Job 225 amp did.
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Top Secret: Vinnie and I are now working on a diabolical plan to create an integrated LIO/X1 monster of titanic performance. Its game over for the old paradigm.
I've already started drooling.
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Oh yeah, this would be very special :green:
Yep, think it just cost me $10k :lol:
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Yep, think it just cost me $10k :lol:
Actually it really did. Just put the deposit down to get on the list. I'll fly out to UT to listen to them in a couple of months. :thumb:
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Any updates? :hyper:
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Any updates? :hyper:
All,
It is true that Clayton and I have been working on some very cool solutions (yes, there will be more than one!)
to be used with the Spatial Audio X1's. 8)
We hope to begin sharing this information with you all in about a week, so hang on... it's coming!
Updates will be coming (and I'll also post them on the Vinnie Rossi forum when it's time), and yes, Clayton will be
updating his website.
I've very excited to be working with Clayton on this! 2017 is going to be another AWESOME year :singing:
Vinnie
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Interesting design but how do you get an 18" waveguide hold pattern control down to 300hz? :scratch:
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Interesting design but how do you get an 18" waveguide hold pattern control down to 300hz? :scratch:
The waveguide maintains pattern control down to about 600Hz. A widening pattern below that point down to the crossover had no adverse affects in listening tests, due to how low in frequency it is.
Clayton Shaw
SPATIAL AUDIO
spatialaudio.us
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Plans are all set for me to fly to UT to see/hear the X1's. Looking forward to December. :thumb:
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Plans are all set for me to fly to UT to see/hear the X1's. Looking forward to December. :thumb:
Looking forward to your field report.
George
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Plans are all set for me to fly to UT to see/hear the X1's. Looking forward to December. :thumb:
If it works out that you're able to, please compare to the M3 Turbo S while you're there. I know you already own the M3 but a more side by side comparison would be great.
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If it works out that you're able to, please compare to the M3 Turbo S while you're there. I know you already own the M3 but a more side by side comparison would be great.
That's part of the plan...however, there is limited time and I know the M3 very well.
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Looks like I'll be meeting you guys there!
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Starting at $12,000., according to the website.
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duplicate post
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Starting at $12,000., according to the website.
See the first post...
The speaker itself will sell for around $10,000 in the USA market, then you choose the processor solution that best fits your needs, ranging from $100 to $6500.
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So which is it?
The website states "starting at $12k" and lists additional costs for the required external crossover.
George
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So which is it?
The website states "starting at $12k" and lists additional costs for the required external crossover.
George
As it says it's $10k in the USA market.
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As it says it's $10k in the USA market.
Jason,
It actually doesn't say that.
Clayton's first post in the thread says that the speaker itself will sell for around $10k. I don't see anywhere where he explicitly states the price for the speaker. If I am missing it, please point me to it.
The Spatial website currently states that the X-1 starts at $12k.
Hence, why I posted.
I'll just contact Clayton directly...
George
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Jason,
It actually doesn't say that.
Clayton's first post in the thread says that the speaker itself will sell for around $10k. I don't see anywhere where he explicitly states the price for the speaker. If I am missing it, please point me to it.
The Spatial website currently states that the X-1 starts at $12k.
Hence, why I posted.
I'll just contact Clayton directly...
George
Yes it does. I even took it from the first post above.
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Yes it does. I even took it from the first post above.
From the website: "The revolutionary X1 loudspeaker is now available for pre-order, starting at $12,000 per pair. "
http://www.spatialaudio.us/x1-main
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I don't understand why you guys don't understand. It clearly says in the first post what the USA price is.
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Well, maybe because the website doesn't specify that the US has a different price structure, perhaps??? Prices can have a tendency to change over time, you know. And usually they don't go down...
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I don't understand why you guys don't understand. It clearly says in the first post what the USA price is.
It doesn't.
It says what I posted - which is not an explicit price as I previously stated.
Details matter...
George
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It doesn't.
It says what I posted - which is not an explicit price as I previously stated.
Details matter...
George
First post, second paragraph ,second sentence. Clear to me.
The X1 pricing will work by a simple menu approach. The speaker itself will sell for around $10,000 in the USA market, then you choose the processor solution that best fits your needs, ranging from $100 to $6500. The simplest option is a Smart Monobloc DSP amplifier module that fits into the X1 chassis and allows plug and play from your preamp output, priced at $2500/pr. The top option is the amazing DEQX HDP5 which provides full preamp/control center/ remote control/ electronic crossover and room correction. This unit is completely transparent, so it can even be used in systems with vinyl sources. DSP is now good enough that the conversion is no longer audible. This open architecture approach allows flexibility to upgrade later and for future technology (Vinnie !?!). Optional finishes like gloss paint and solid wood front panels are available as well. Detailed pricing will be on our website shortly. Orders are stacking up already, so at least place a refundable deposit if you think you will want a pair. Orders will be processed in chronological order. The first 6 pairs are heading to Europe and Asia in November, with serial production starting in December. Lead times will hopefully be around 4 weeks starting in December. The world debut will be at the Munich show next spring. We are already swamped with magazine requests for review, so there should be plenty of independent commentary available in 2017. The first major review will likely be in STEREOPLAY Magazine in Germany, which is one the very best audio magazines in the world.
I would also like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for your enthusiasm and moral support over the years. Many audiophiles and industry veterans realize that I am making a long term, concerted effort to push the art forward with new and effective ideas, so your kind comments have been very much appreciated.
Clayton Shaw
Spatial Audio Lab
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"Around $10,000" does not necessarily mean "exactly $10,000". Some may interpret $12,000 to be "around" $10,000 - and from what is on the actual website, Clayton would appear to me to be one of those individuals.
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"Around $10,000" does not necessarily mean "exactly $10,000". Some may interpret $12,000 to be "around" $10,000 - and from what is on the actual website, Clayton would appear to me to be one of those individuals.
OK, you go with that! :thumb: I'll go with what I've read and put a deposit on. Oh, and booked a trip to UT to see/hear them. :green:
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OK, you go with that! :thumb: I'll go with what I've read and put a deposit on. Oh, and booked a trip to UT to see/hear them. :green:
Jason,
If you talked to Clayton and he said it was $10k, why couldn't you simply state that 3 posts ago?
George
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Jason,
If you talked to Clayton and he said it was $10k, why couldn't you simply state that 3 posts ago?
George
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=146217.msg1564788#msg1564788
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From the website:
"US customers - call for domestic pricing", so it seems that the pricing for US is different but not exactly sure what.
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From the website:
"US customers - call for domestic pricing", so it seems that the pricing for US is different but not exactly sure what.
To clarify X1 pricing: Our products are sold worldwide, so we have moved to a "World Price" approach. The $12,000 shown on our site is the world price for X1s in basic Satin finish. Gloss paint and wood finishes will be at higher price categories and will be on the site soon. USA customers can just call me for factory direct pricing inside the lower 48 states.
Clayton Shaw
SPATIAL AUDIO
www.spatialaudio.us
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All,
It is true that Clayton and I have been working on some very cool solutions (yes, there will be more than one!)
to be used with the Spatial Audio X1's. 8)
We hope to begin sharing this information with you all in about a week, so hang on... it's coming!
Updates will be coming (and I'll also post them on the Vinnie Rossi forum when it's time), and yes, Clayton will be
updating his website.
I've very excited to be working with Clayton on this! 2017 is going to be another AWESOME year :singing:
Vinnie
This:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=146542.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=146542.0)
:thumb:
Vinnie
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X1 in Mahogany
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154306)
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:thumb:
Looking forward to hearing these!
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:thumb:
Looking forward to hearing these!
Me too!
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:wave: :bounce: :rock: :hyper: :weights: :beer:
Best,
Anand.
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In less than 24 hrs I'll be listening to the X1's and the Vinnie Rossi LIO. Going to be interesting for sure!
HUGE thank you to Clayton for hosting us nuts.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154647)
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Wow!! Doo tell.......... :thumb:
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Wow!! Doo tell.......... :thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154648)
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Tease!! :thumbdown:
George
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Tease!! :thumbdown:
George
Shhhhh... 2 geniuses hard at work
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Shhhhh... 2 geniuses hard at work
So that leaves Jason free as Clayton and Vinnie create magic! :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
George
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So that leaves Jason free as Clayton and Vinnie create magic! :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
George
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154669)
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Done for the day. :sleep: :sleep:
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That was certainly a healthy day of work yesterday.
Here's to the hope that things go well today. My expectations are pretty high.
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I'll update photo later. LIO (microRendu) > Spatial X1. That's it.
Simple yet elegant.
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Full house today!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154718)
LIO with DHT
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I understand this is not a final version and the system will probably go through few more tweeks, but can you put some words on the sounds or you signed NDA? :)
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Looks like a narrow but deep/long room. Still sounding ok or will it require some DSP to get it to work in the room configuration?
Looking forward to some feedback as well on how the X1s stack up!
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We need reports!
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Here are the X1's with the DHT LIO, sourced from JRiver to a MicroRendu.
We had all 3 LIO line stage options, copper AVC Tube Stage, silver AVC Tube Stage, and 2A3 DHT.
Only LIO gives you the option to switch in just a couple minutes, it's child's play.
Each had their favorite, not necessarily the same, so there is something for everyone.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154744)
Up close and personal, these things are absolutely rock solid stable and massive, unlike some OB realizations.
You just can't budge them and any counter force from the drivers must be very, very low.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154738)
The rest of the family, M4's and M3's waiting in the wings.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154737)
M3Turbo S and X1 side be side.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154742)
Completely integrated LIO X1 solution with analog 2 way XO, 4 channel power amp (blue heatsink) all in one module replacing the 2 channel amp module.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154741)
Yesterday was a long day of getting everything dialed in, but last night all was sounding very good.
All I can say so far is we listened to a TON of music courtesy of JTW DJ, and this simple LIO - X1 combo is going to be a major disruptor when you look at the overall value proposition. Oh, and no fancy cables needed 8)
Clayton and everyone at Spatial have been terrific hosts, so huge thanks to all!
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Thanks for the comments and pictures Tom.
Safe travels.
George
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This is as basic as the setup gets - MicroRendu for streaming, MiniDSP crossover/DAC, and 2 stereo Red Dragon amplifiers. This setup more than held it's own. The MiniDSP with 4 channels of amplification of your choice (e.g. a spare multichannel HT amp you might already have) is a great starting point and the pre-configured MiniDSP (<$400) will be available turn key from Spatial.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154781)
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More sonic impressions please!!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Love the concept of these speakers. How's the sound?
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I have a long write up which I plan on posting tonight.
Stay tuned...
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I'll be posting as well - this evening or tomorrow. It's just been insanely busy today! :hyper:
Vinnie
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Same here, just been back to the grind at work today :(
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I'm sure the others above will give more detail explained more eloquently but here's my take after an incredible weekend full of fun and long travel. I'm toast tonight.
I arrived at Spatial on Friday (12/9/16) at about noon along with "TomS". When we arrived Clayton and Vinnie Rossi were already doing their thing. We briefly talked about the X1's that were standing proud in the room. After a brief talk we listened with the Spatial demo equipment on hand at the time. It was a 2009 iMac > miniDSP > Red Dragon Amps. Basically as simple as it could really be. It certainly sounded good. After that the Vinnie Rossi LIO was installed and measurements were taken as "TomS" posted above. Vinnie and Clayton started to do what they do; and do best. I must say that Vinnie Rossi impressed me before this day after seeing the LIO back at RMAF with Tom back in 2014 (?) at its debut. To have the foresight and knowledge to pull something of that magnitude is no small feat.
Enter the Vinnie Rossi X1 Amp Module. What Vinnie did while we were standing there with iteration after iteration of tweaking on a board based on measurements and math was nothing short of incredible. The guy is by far the best I've ever seen with a soldering iron on a very small board with very small components where there is no room for error. He and Clayton pulled it off! After a bunch of measurements it was time to hookup some of the electronics I brought. We installed my Apple Airport Extreme that I put a static IP address on for the Sonore µRendu. With that I used my MacBook Air with a Seagate 2TB drive using JRiver along to the µRendu in DLNA mode. The power for the µRendu was provided by the 7Vdc from the LIO and the USB Cable Dongle was from P.I. Audio/TWL.
After things were set and sounding good we listened until 11:30 pm Friday night. It was sounding so damn good and we were having such a great time it was hard to leave. Oh, did I mention the food that was catered?!?! Thanks Clayton! Great company, food, music and suddenly all was right. On Saturday, "goskers" and his buddy Nick arrived before us. Basically we proceeded to play tunes and eat he same thing for the next 12 hrs giving them along with "Bob" from WPB, FL a chance to have the chair and play what they wanted. We ended Saturday at 8:30 pm as a big storm was brewing for the mountains and it was important that Clayton be able to get home. I flew back Sunday and figured that I occupied enough of Clayton's time so I didn't return on Sunday but instead got to sit at the airport for 5 hrs and watch football. So the question is how do they sound, right? Let me say that after living with the M3 Turbo S' for the past 10 months I really had no desire to change. The M3's still to this day do more than most and certainly in their price range. Quite frankly, I don't get how he does it but he does. Being able to see the Spatial facility and see the process and the actual parts that make up the whole production line was fantastic. I have even more respect for the company and products. I should also add that Spatial is in an industrial park in Salt Lake City and not in a basement. It's run like a real business and looks like it too. Back to sonics. So how do they compare? They really don't. That's where my problem lies. As happy as I am with the M3's the X1's are just simply better in every regard as you would expect. This is where things get a bit odd for me. I went there thinking that the X1's would be good and I'd like them and that would be it. I never thought I'd go there and listen to them and really think about replacing the $2800 M3's with the $10k+ (VR X1 Module) but they really do strike me in a way that hits home. As you may know, I had GedLee Abbeys for years. I loved them. There was nothing they didn't do right IMO. After a divorce and loss of listening space and quite frankly really wanting to simplify my stereo and life the thought of the LIO and M3's was refreshing. After having them side by side I decided that I could be happy with this setup for the foreseeable future. What I wasn't expecting was to have an audition of X1's that brought back some listening qualities that I've missed. The shear amount of detail done with such finese of the X1's is simply jaw dropping. I guess the way to put it is that the X1's are the well designed speakers that have that "it" factor while listening. Along with the Vinnie Rossi LIO, the X1 and LIO combo still retains my simple setup and provides a listening experience that I prefer. Whether it's for you or not; only you can decide. It seems as though there will be plenty of pairs out there to audition in time but of course you can hear them at the Munich and LA Show coming in May and June respectively. I have no doubt that if you wanted to take a trip to Spatial in SLC that Clayton would accommodate you too. It's important to note that the room at Spatial isn't ideal. In fact, I see that as a good thing. If it was a purpose built top notch room you would then always question how they could sound in your space. The advantage here is that you get to hear them in a real world environment and hear what a properly designed CD design can actually do.
Thanks again to Clayton, Vinnie Rossi and the other guys. It was a fantastic weekend for Audio Tourism (Tom's term).
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I came into this past weekend with a great deal of skepticism. The two items that intrigued me most about the X1 design was the use of a waveguide for controlled directivity and the claim of a single compression driver being able to cover the range from 300Hz on up.
I was the smart one that decided to drive to this meeting from Nebraska. I picked up a former colleague of mine in Colorado along the way and arrived Friday night. Made my way to Spatial for the proposed start time of 9AM Saturday morning. It was then that I learned of what had transpired the day/night prior. Vinnie of LIO fame had come in earlier to work on getting the crossover settings correct for driving the X1 with. Clayton mentioned to me that they were able to get the compression driver +- .5db (1db overall) across it's passband with Vinnie's analog crossover. This is a remarkable feat! All good things for me as I care about measurements and stuff like that.
When the rest of the guys arrived we made the proper introductions and got down to some listening. I was informed of the late night session the night before so I figured that things couldn't be bad. The one and only track that I requested to be placed on the 2TB of music was an early Rush track. I listed to the first 2 mins of the 10 min track and knew that this was something special. The rest of the day was spent with most of the latecomers, myself included, popping in, out and around the sweet spot. The level of clarity experienced was such that I haven't heard before. The X1's being ruler flat and using a single compression driver during the most critical bands gave a solid soundstage with no anomalies which I could ascertain. The bass was great. Using an 18" woofer designed specifically for the duties asked of it makes a world of difference.
I did not spend much of any time listening to the setup with the other DSP/amp options available. My system goal has morphed as I have gotten older. I want a clean, simple looking setup. The sacrifice is typically that of the last 5% that we all chase. The marriage between Clayton (X1) and Vinnie (LIO) seem to be a perfect match. The design choices made by Clayton have been allowed to sing with the LIO. We used the AVC tubestage as well as DHT during the day. The differences between all were easily revealed with the X1. One could consider the X1 a bit of a 'control group' as other speakers could be judged against them for many of the typical categories we tend to swoon over.
Many thanks go out to Clayton for hosting and the amazing food provided. Special thanks to Vinnie for getting the LIO to perform with these they way it did. How the X1's were able to play at more than plentiful levels with the internal amp providing 15w/45w is beyond me.
The downside for me was that there is some work left to be done to get the X1 to production ready. My reason for driving out was to be able to take a pair back with me if they turned out to be the real deal. Well, these are the real deal. I plan on these living with me when they are ready. The LIO will be performing all necessary silent system functions.
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Jason and Joel already covered a lot of the experience, but here are a few of my own impressions.
Friday was indeed a "development" day, new drivers, new LIO XO and amp, tweaking the balance, positioning, really an all development effort. I live in that world myself, so no big deal, fun times. Vinnie managed to get the XO dialed in so the acoustic response was nearly ruler flat, at least on axis. The last couple of hours late Friday, after the move of the speakers ~2' further from the front wall, we listened more seriously, and they had really snapped into focus and started to strut their stuff. I could finally hear the potential and finished listening to the reference tracks very satisfied with what I'd heard on day 1, though dog tired from watching Vinnie and Clayton work their magic.
Saturday, with more break-in from running overnight, I felt they were even more spot on, wouldn't change a thing, sounding very, very good. I never felt strongly one way or the other on break-in effects, but they were clearly sounding better than when we left Friday evening. Clayton explained he sees significant measured differences in the drivers as they break in, now I’m a believer. They had great clarity, natural detail, and coherence top to bottom. Bass was solid and authoritative, with nice pitch definition, and mid bass balanced appropriately to the rest of the range. They seemed almost like a single driver system with all it’s goodness, but with the benefit of real power and extension. Unlike most OB's and dipoles I've heard and owned, which can sound somewhat diffuse/fuzzy and artificially reverberant, the X1’s locked individual details tightly in place all across the soundstage, without exaggerating. Outlines of instruments in space were very precise. Vocals were like point sources, and exceptionally coherent. A nice illusion of depth made it easy to place individual instruments in that dimension. Where there was actual reverberant field in the recording, it was all there, nothing artificial. Well done live recordings were breathtakingly real at times.
The brief M3 comparison showed that while the M3's are good on their own, there is a significant jump when you experience the X1's. The X1’s are definitely more revealing, which could be good or bad depending on your preferences.
At a personal level, I wanted to know if these could really play in the same league as the TAD Evolution One's I’ve enjoyed for the last 3 years. At resale prices <$15k, the Evo’s remain fiercely competitive with the latest round of “luxury goods” speakers, priced well into the tens of thousands. For me, their main strength and charm is the coherence and seamlessness of how the 5" magnesium mid and beryllium tweeter integrate together into the whole. It all sounds as one, which to me is rare for any of the typical 2.5/3 way full range designs. The TAD’s dynamic capability is also very good, and full range bass is beyond decent, but it's not SOTA like the 4 randomly placed and individually tuned subs I used to have (Geddes multi-sub setup). Still, the Evo’s are supremely good as a full range package, which you'd expect at their price point, with a few carefully chosen compromises.
So, how did the X1’s fare? The custom compression driver/waveguide seemed to be at least on par with the TAD mid/tweet combo, and could be better, particularly with ultimate transparency and staging presentation. Those are the TAD's main strengths, so this alone really surprised me and was quite amazing to hear. I suspect in the right room/setup, the X1 bass would exceed them in impact and extension as well. The AE 18” dipole driver is a beast, and handily took on every bit of pipe organ fireworks (thanks to the GAS reference disc!) and various percussion lines I threw at them. I’m certain they could easily pressurize a more typical listening space, which is something most OB speakers struggle to do and I find lacking. You do get the whole visceral feeling with these, without the box bloat. I measured some peaks ~95-100db at the listening position, with no strain, so they can definitely get up and boogie if you choose to. This was with “only” about 45 watts from the LIO X1 amp to the woofers. The combo had no problem at all dishing out more than we could stand. I seriously doubt the TADs could stay with them on that point, and would surely take 4-5x the power trying. The only way to know is to put them in the same room, but I’m fairly confident on this one. Bottom line is the X1's are a player at this level, at less than half the price.
In terms of packaging, the renderings don't adequately represent what's going on here. Seeing them in person, with hands on, I was impressed with the clever package, and its rock solid stability and sheer heft. It is thoroughly thought out and nicely executed, so kudo's to Clayton and David, his talented designer. I'm very excited to see them once the final few details are worked out and finishes applied. They just have a confident presence about them.
The biggest realization is when you step back and consider the value proposition. The Spatial direct model keeps the speakers under $12k in the US. Vinnie offers the LIO a la carte direct from ~$3k to ~$13k fully loaded with everything but a cheese slicer. One can put together a very high performance X1 based system with just a MiniDSP and 4 amp channels for well under $15k total. Step up to a moderately equipped LIO and you’re still well under $20k. A loaded LIO bumps it to ~$25k. I can’t imagine a total system solution from established manufacturers that can hang with this combo at this level of investment. And, it’s already turn key, completely integrated, no tweaking, no knobs to turn, cables to fuss with, etc. Overall, I think it’s a mind boggling value, where high quality separate systems run well into 6 figures these days. From what I observed, this will develop into a great partnership.
Thanks again to Vinnie Rossi, Clayton Shaw, and the entire Spatial crew for an opportunity to preview the Spatial X1’s and the Vinnie Rossi LIO X1 module. They were all gracious and open, answering every question without hesitation, with nothing off limits. We all learned a lot and thoroughly enjoyed the experience and meeting the people there. Oh, and Clayton has a fantastic "caterer", who provided great food all weekend. You know who you are, so thanks so much!
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All,
It was a pleasure to visit Spatial Audio over the weekend, and I'd say it was a very successful meet up! As the others have mentioned,
Friday was very busy for us as we were working on the LIO X1 module's active crossover / EQ (all implemented in the analog domain). From the frequency response plots that Clayton previously sent to me for the X1 drivers, I already had pre-production prototype PCBs made ahead of time. The crossover part of it was already spot-on! The other two things to get dialed in were:
1) The EQ'ing of the compression driver / waveguide to get the flattest response possible. It actually covers a wide frequency range of 300Hz on up.
2) Setting the gain of the bass channels and treble channels. As the compression driver is significantly more sensitive at 110dB,
the gain of the treble channels had to be lowered to match properly with the 18" bass drivers.
Regarding (1) above, after a morning / afternoon of hard work (and even Jason and Tom driving out to a local electronics shot to get me a resistor kit for values that I did not have on me), it all paid off. I was able to get Clayton's waveguide to measure essentially FLAT
from 300Hz on up (+/- 0.5dB). At first I didn't believe my eyes :o, but we repeated this measurement a few times and on both speakers and confirmed it. 8)
Regarding (2) above, I installed a stereo volume control pot on the LIO X1 AMP prototype module so we could adjust the gain while we listened, and listen we did... all through the afternoon and evening until late hours! :guitar: Jason gets the credit for being DJ with his computer loaded up with track-after-track-after-track of excellent music of many genres... some well recorded and some not as well recorded. Jason, Tom, Clayton and I were able to agree on what sounded best in terms of the gain setting of the bass / treble channels.
This will end up being the center (detent) position of the gain control, and I am going to allow for +/- 6dB or so of adjustment from there so one can really dial in the sound in their room.
LISTENING
jtwrace, goskers, and TomS have already posted detailed listening impressions that I find mirror my impressions. I will add to this by mentioning how I found the X1 to compare to a speaker that many of you already have heard (or own) - The Spatial M3 Turbo S:
I found the X1 to be a significant jump in performance over the M3 TurboS in every possible regard. Specifically:
- The quality of the bass was better in that it was cleaner and better defined. It also dug deeper and with better extension, and more impact. This was the best bass that I have heard from an open baffle speaker at this point. The 18", dual-voice coil driver mounted on the solid X1 baffle is just KILLER! I'm sure it mostly has to do with the quality of that awesome Acoustic Elegance 18" driver, but I also believe the X1's bass is cleaner because we sharply cut off at 300Hz via the active crossover, so the driver does not have to work nearly as hard as the 15" in the M3 (which I believe has a passive crossover point more than double this).
- The compression driver + waveguide for me sounds much more open, extended, and refined throughout the band. You can hear that it's response is much flatter over a wide range of the listening spectrum. Compared to the M3, it is much cleaner to me at louder playback levels, but I also found that it has more magic at lower volume levels. For example, Tori Amos' "I'm on Fire" vocal on that track was just a lot more seductive to me with the X1 and gave Bob goosebumps, and that was one of the tracks that we were not playing at loud levels. Simply put, the resolution was outstanding!
The X1 soundstage was definitely more 3D and holographic. I know the M3s we used were not broken in, but I have also spent hours listening to Zybar's M3's (in his well-treated room), and we've played a handful of the same tracks at Zybar's that we also played on the X1s (e.g. cuts from Jason's RMAF playlists). I've also had to opportunity to listen to the M3 at a few audio shows, so I feel I have a good handle on their sonic characteristics. The X1's waveguide does a better job convincing me that I'm listening to real instruments and performers, and their sense of scale was more lifelike. Many of the live recordings that were played sounded quite convincing!
Let me make sure it's clear that I think the M3's are "stupid good" for the money, and I know many who agree with this statement. Without going on and on, I'll say this: I'm very confident that many listeners are going to be saying the exact same thing about the X1
+ LIO combo. That is why I am very excited to be teaming up with Clayton at the LA Audio Show in early June (in a corner suite which will be larger than the standard room), where the X1 will be demonstrated in the USA for the first time. We're aiming to deliver seriously good bang for your buck, performing way above the approx. $20K - $25K price point (X1's + LIO X1 Integrated, loaded with dac, DHT, X1 AMP, etc).
Thanks again to Clayton for hosting this, his fiancee for catering the event, and especially for the attendees (Jason, TomS, Joel, Nick, and Bob) for all your time and providing your valuable feedback. I believe that makes 14 ears in total - carefully listening, enjoying the music, asking questions and learning from each other. :beer:
Vinnie
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Tom, you're wrong on my part. They looked heavy from the start; they're thick
Congrats on the great execution guys. (Don't spoil it with a MiniDSP, go LIO)
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Tom, you're wrong on my part.
:scratch:
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As in I wasn't thinking they're anything but hefty, very much so! They look like you'd get nothing but sore knuckles and backs trying to test that factor. It's very important, I believe making the structure at that kind of level is one of the steps needed to take his speakers into a realm where people looking to spend double, triple, quadruple, the costs of the X1 should be looking at the X1 as a contender when you start getting to this sort of level of production and innovation.
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As in I wasn't thinking they're anything but hefty, very much so! They look like you'd get nothing but sore knuckles and backs trying to test that factor. It's very important, I believe making the structure at that kind of level is one of the steps needed to take his speakers into a realm where people looking to spend double, triple, quadruple, the costs of the X1 should be looking at the X1 as a contender when you start getting to this sort of level of production and innovation.
Thanks for the explanation and it makes sense. Yes, they're very hefty. :weights:
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And I love having the DEQX option too. Greater control over crossover slopes and points plus more importantly the ability to keep things flat (or to your preferences) even at lower frequencies where the room is exerting its effects on unique ways. IIRC some DEQX also use SMPS so conceivably those models could make use of a LIO as power supply, no?
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And I love having the DEQX option too. Greater control over crossover slopes and points plus more importantly the ability to keep things flat (or to your preferences) even at lower frequencies where the room is exerting its effects on unique ways. IIRC some DEQX also use SMPS so conceivably those models could make use of a LIO as power supply, no?
I think having multiple options is great. Whether it's the miniDSP, DEQX, DCX or the LIO they all will work. The question becomes how much effort does one want to put in and at what cost. Personally the LIO is the easiest and cleanest option out there.
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Agree that LIO is easiest and cleanest.
But it can't address room effects without help. Normally the DEQX is big help above 300hz too but sounds like that may not be necessary (0.5db across the bandwidth? Wow.). And likewise sounds like it's assistance in creating a steep crossover slope is also not as needed if at all.
Speaking of steep, DEQX has a steep learning curve too. :(
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I don't mind the steep learning curve given the level of engineering in a DEQX and my current DCX. The implementation and execution of the X1 is divine. Given what I know what TomS, jtwrace, and goskers have owned in the past, their reviews speak volumes to me.
Looking forward to the X1 in a future 2ch setup :thumb:
Best,
Anand.
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When I was reading the replies, particularly about comparing to Geddes, I already thought... here comes Anand's new speakers!
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I don't mind the steep learning curve given the level of engineering in a DEQX and my current DCX. The implementation and execution of the X1 is divine. Given what I know what TomS, jtwrace, and goskers have owned in the past, their reviews speak volumes to me.
Looking forward to the X1 in a future 2ch setup :thumb:
Best,
Anand.
Yeah, TomS's comparison to those incredible TADs sure got my attention. Damn.
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When I was reading the replies, particularly about comparing to Geddes, I already thought... here comes Anand's new speakers!
Indeed. My NA12's are already much better than my previous Abbeys, so it's unfortunate I can't compare them to the X1 at the same time, like the fellas did when they compared the M3 Turbo to the X1's.
But...this X1 may be the ticket for me for a basement system and the NA12's would stay upstairs in their own dedicated theater room. Our basement is in the beginning stages of being built up...
Moreover...I'm more than curious about active setups. I know they have tremendous potential :thumb:
Best,
Anand.
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And I love having the DEQX option too. Greater control over crossover slopes and points plus more importantly the ability to keep things flat (or to your preferences) even at lower frequencies where the room is exerting its effects on unique ways. IIRC some DEQX also use SMPS so conceivably those models could make use of a LIO as power supply, no?
While the room is certainly the most important part I believe in fixing the room with treatments and not electrically. I used to do it that way and was shocked when I went the other route.
YMMV.
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It's very impressive that the X1 can get to a 300hz crossover point with an 18" waveguide. There must be some heavy EQ to reach that point.
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It's very impressive the the X1 can get to a 300hz crossover point with an 18" waveguide. There must be some heavy EQ to reach that point.
And within 0.5db from a crossover in the analog domain! Wow. :o :o
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It's very impressive that the X1 can get to a 300hz crossover point with an 18" waveguide. There must be some heavy EQ to reach that point.
I wouldn't call it heavy EQ'ing at all...
The compression driver's diaphragm is 4" (not sure on the dimensions of the actual waveguide that it fires into),
and the bass driver from 300Hz on down is indeed an 18" (dual voice coil driver - with two 8-ohm voice coils in parallel).
And within 0.5db from a crossover in the analog domain! Wow. :o :o
We measured +/- 0.5dB across the entire band on-axis. I believe the mic was a foot away from the waveguide.
Yes, we were using the LIO X1 AMP, with it's active 300Hz crossovers on the bass driver (LPF) and compression driver (HPF)... ALL
in the analog domain. :singing:
Both Jason and Tom were there to witness it when we did the measuring (before and after all the adjustments that I made
throughout the day, and it wasn't looking nearly that good earlier on). I guess I was having a lucky day because it was like hitting a bulls eye when we nailed that response down!
I'm currently working on updating the schematics to reflect what we did last Friday, and then I'll be re-spinning the PCB. I can
only image it will sound better than the hacked up one that we were using. :icon_lol:
While the room is certainly the most important part I believe in fixing the room with treatments and not electrically.
+1 (but some rooms can be very challenging)
Vinnie
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I guess the 1.4" throat Beryllium CD is the determining factor. It must be a very good CD to get down that low.
Yep, it must be the 4" diaphragm that can handle the power. Most 1.4" CDs have ~500hz as the low point.
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It certainly is impressive. From what I understand Clayton has years of experience developing drivers thus isn't yo momma or daddy's driver. :lol:
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But...this X1 may be the ticket for me for a basement system and the NA12's would stay upstairs in their own dedicated theater room. Our basement is in the beginning stages of being built up...
Best,
Anand.
Could be the ideal setup with the two rooms. Perhaps it's time to get that deposit down. :P
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All this theoretical discussion regarding how low we can control directivity is only important when you take psychoacoustics into account. And from what Geddes and Greisinger have said, the importance of CD starts at 500Hz and becomes much more important at about 700-800Hz all the way up to 7Khz. An octave below 700Hz (350Hz) or an octave above 7khz (14khz) is really just bragging rights in all honesty. So it isn't as controlled in its directivity at 300Hz...guess what? Who cares? (It better be an octave above though :wink:).
Remember the modicum of comparison were Spatial's M3/M4 speakers which are really tricked out coaxial designs with much much smaller waveguides. When you move up to the X1 which has its own very dedicated 18 inch waveguide, the difference must of been night and day. Not to mention the driver technology jumped up by leaps and bounds (titanium compression tweeter versus beryllium). And then you add the active setup and its own advantages (I hope Danny R doesn't read this :lol: ).
Polar plots will be the most telling...
And regarding power, you are not pumping 100 watts into this tweeter at 300 Hz. This is 96dB AND active, AND you are padding that tweeter down from a 110dB. This isn't the usual 1" compression tweeter, but 1.4" with a 4"diaphragm, and the 18 inch waveguide certainly helps. I am all for big waveguides. I love them. But not to a point of bragging rights or even controlling directivity to a very low frequency where psychoacoustically it may not make a difference at all. I'm not worried about the tweeter exceeding it's excursion capability,given its build quality, active setup with DSP, and of course overall efficiency of the design. You will drive yourself deaf or out of the room or both when you start pumping the kind of power that would drive the tweeter into higher distortion due to higher excursions! With a 1.4" tweeter, might there be a little less extension in the top end? Perhaps. But again. Who cares? I'm in my 40's and I know I can't hear past 15khz, and no audiologist will claim that I can hear that far up either :lol: Thank you presbycusis.
There is a lot of silly marketing in high end audio. I am just glad to see good engineering in progress...and the X1 seems to reach that goal.
Best,
Anand.
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All this theoretical discussion regarding how low we can control directivity is only important when you consider psychoacoustics...
Best,
Anand.
This is key... :thumb:
I haven't heard it, but I think the X1 has tons of potential because the design is better wrt psychoacoustics vs a typical 3 or 4-way dynamic speaker, at least for my tastes.
You can theoretically tear apart any speaker on the planet, because they're all designs based on choosing compromises, but results are all that really matters.
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It doesn't play down to 300hz with a wave guide because they wanted directionalality at 300hz. It plays that range because about 300hz is where we become sensitive to phase up until around 3khz. Essentially this speaker is as coherent or more so than a fullrange driver. That's what's up. Very smart.
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It doesn't play down to 300hz with a wave guide because they wanted directionalality at 300hz. It plays that range because about 300hz is where we become sensitive to phase up until around 3khz. Essentially this speaker is as coherent or more so than a fullrange driver. That's what's up. Very smart.
I think it's likely better than a full range on a flat baffle as well, the polar pattern is probably much better. There's a lot of advantages that actually matter in a point-source horn, and major disadvantages absent that tend to get glossed-over when looking at multi-way speakers.
I'm thinking eventually horn/wg type speakers will gain popularity over dynamic speakers... well, I can only hope... :)
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Deposit sent :D
Best,
Anand.
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I don't think you'll be disappointed. :thumb:
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I don't think you'll be disappointed. :thumb:
Agreed. Perhaps a trip to SLC for a day though. :green:
Deposit sent :D
Best,
Anand.
Is the Vinnie Rossi LIO on order too? :P
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Is the Vinnie Rossi LIO on order too? :P
Not yet, but it isn't ruled out :thumb:
I'm too much of a tweaker as you already know and I enjoy my DIY :wink:
Best,
Anand.
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Not yet, but it isn't ruled out :thumb:
I'm too much of a tweaker as you already know and I enjoy my DIY :wink:
Best,
Anand.
I've got a Bent TAP-X for you then which you can use with the VR Line Level Module and your DIY NeuroChrome Amps. :wink:
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I've got a Bent TAP-X for you then which you can use with the VR Line Level Module and your DIY NeuroChrome Amps. :wink:
I've already got one...remember?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=118082.0
Best,
Anand.
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I've already got one...remember?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=118082.0
Best,
Anand.
Yep, that's in the other system. :P
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Yep, that's in the other system. :P
The other system will be pure HT, so will have an AV processor.
Best,
Anand.
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The other system will be pure HT, so will have an AV processor.
Best,
Anand.
Uh oh. That's until you hear an AV processor compared to how you do it now. :lol: You will see (hear). You will be :scratch:
:lol: :P :lol: :P
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I've gotten a few PM's from members saying they have also put their deposit down. Should be interesting to see what everyone gets in terms of finish. For me, I'm just basic black satin.
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Can't wait for them to come to an AXPONA. Or a Chicago buyer...
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Can't wait for them to come to an AXPONA. Or a Chicago buyer...
Not this year :-(
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Can't wait for them to come to an AXPONA. Or a Chicago buyer...
All,
I can confirm the the next show that will have the X1s (and LIO) will be Munich (May 2017), followed
by the LA Audio Show in early June. The LA Show will be their "USA debut."
I'll be at AXPONA 2017, but Clayton and the X1s will not be there because he'll be too busy getting them ready
for their "world debut" at Munich.
Vinnie
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Not this year :-(
Yeah that was mentioned earlier in this thread. Alas.
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Yeah that was mentioned earlier in this thread. Alas.
I'm sure in time there will be owners in your area. You can also go to the LA show. ;)
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The simplest option is a Smart Monobloc DSP amplifier module that fits into the X1 chassis and allows plug and play from your preamp output, priced at $2500/pr.
So for around $12,500 one can have an active version of this speaker. Hmmm... Did any of the folks who traveled to Utah hear this option? If so, was it inferior to the "all-out" option? Clayton, how much of the full potential would I get with this configuration?
Thanks!
Slush
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We did not get to hear this configuration. We listened to two variations; LIO with X1 module and the MiniDSP with Red Dragon amps.
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We did not get to hear this configuration. We listened to two variations; LIO with X1 module and the MiniDSP with Red Dragon amps.
goskers,
Thanks for the fast reply!
I'm looking for the simplest option. I basically want to drive them with my Mytek DAC/Preamp. Wondering how close I'd get to full potential with this configuration.
Best regards,
Slush
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There is no reason why that option shouldn't sound damn fine. Although i didn't do much serious listening with the MiniDSP in the chain it still sounded absolutely fantastic. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend that path to someone.
Clayton would be the one to ask regarding the built in options.
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There is no reason why that option shouldn't sound damn fine. Although i didn't do much serious listening with the MiniDSP in the chain it still sounded absolutely fantastic. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend that path to someone.
Clayton would be the one to ask regarding the built in options.
That is what I wanted to hear - One of the simplest options still sounded great. I will ask him directly.
Thanks again!
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I'm digging the new look of the X1 posted on the Spatial site (below).
http://www.spatialaudio.us/
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155794)
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Definitely heading in the right direction.
The speaker looks better and better in each picture. :thumb:
George
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Surprised that there does seem to be any tilt to them in this design.
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Surprised that there does seem to be any tilt to them in this design.
Maybe tilt is supposed to be adjusted with spikes but none are in the picture.
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Not sure tilt is needed.
Maybe Clayton will comment on that aspect.
George
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Given that the bass driver is an 18" unit, that may be misleading in terms of apparent size/height—in other words, the speakers may be taller than they seem and the listening axis is already correct for the seated listener, even with vertical baffle. They appear to be just over 50" tall.
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Surprised that there does seem to be any tilt to them in this design.
There is limited tilt available just by adjusting the spike footer height. The waveguide has such good polar performance that in normal installations, the X1 should not need to be tilted. The vertical height of the driver aperture is 38 inches. The speaker dimensions are 47.5 H X 16" D X 20.6" W.
Clayton Shaw
Spatial Audio
www.spatialaudio.us
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I'm digging the new look of the X1 posted on the Spatial site (below).
http://www.spatialaudio.us/
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155794)
I agree jtwrace! That is the look (white/grey) I ordered from Clayton. I am very excited! :D
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I agree jtwrace! That is the look (white/grey) I ordered from Clayton. I am very excited! :D
Very cool! Didn't know you were a buyer too. :thumb:
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Very cool! Didn't know you were a buyer too. :thumb:
Yep! I have been talking to Clayton for quite a while, trying to decide between the Lumina and X1. The X1 checks a lot of boxes for me, especially no passive crossover.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154741)
Is this the final version or only a prototype? Those tube skyscrapers won't fit in my rack or most others for that matter.
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Very cool! Didn't know you were a buyer too. :thumb:
targa02 and jtwrace, What version/amplification are you getting?
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Is this the final version or only a prototype? Those tube skyscrapers won't fit in my rack or most others for that matter.
The DHT isn't a prototype. The amp/crossover/eq (blue in the pic) with the X1 is though.
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The tube "skyscrapers" are only in the LIO DHT.
All other version will have no problems.
That said, maybe a new rack is a better solution.
The LIO DHT looks great on a platform + Daedalus DiD's.
George
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155835)
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The LIO DHT looks great on a platform + Daedalus DiD's.
George
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155835)
I've got to say, it doesn't look great to me. :peek:
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I've got to say, it doesn't look great to me. :peek:
How dare you!! :guns: :guns:
Just kidding...no issues with you not liking it.
Below is a wider pic of the system.
George
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155836)
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Offense not intended—I just have a 'thing' about unnecessarily exposed tubes on an otherwise plain box, beyond the fact they are very vulnerable without any protection.
I do like your acoustic absorption on the front wall, though!
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Offense not intended—I just have a 'thing' about unnecessarily exposed tubes on an otherwise plain box, beyond the fact they are very vulnerable without any protection.
I do like your acoustic absorption on the front wall, though!
There are tube covers but he doesn't have them installed.
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targa02 and jtwrace, What version/amplification are you getting?
Hi Don. I have an internal struggle going on in my mind between using a Vinnie Rossi amp with analog crossovers versus the DEQX HDP-5. With Vinnie's product I am obviously off the grid and I am a BIG fan of Vinnie. With the DEQX unit the crossovers are in the arguably more efficient digital domain and I can use their sophisticated room correction and loudspeaker calibration. If I go with the DEQX unit I will use nCore 400 monos for the woofers and a Linear Tube Audio ZOTL 40 (http://www.lineartubeaudio.com/products/zotl40) for the compression drivers. I wish I could go with both options!
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Love my DEQX HD-4, even though I am not using it to its full capabilities (not using it for a digital crossover).
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Hi Don. I have an internal struggle going on in my mind between using a Vinnie Rossi amp with analog crossovers versus the DEQX HDP-5. With Vinnie's product I am obviously off the grid and I am a BIG fan of Vinnie. With the DEQX unit the crossovers are in the arguably more efficient digital domain and I can use their sophisticated room correction and loudspeaker calibration. If I go with the DEQX unit I will use nCore 400 monos for the woofers and a Linear Tube Audio ZOTL 40 (http://www.lineartubeaudio.com/products/zotl40) for the compression drivers. I wish I could go with both options!
nCore amps are a great match with Spatial Speakers and the LIO.
That said, I am leaning towards selling my NC1200 mono amps and going with a full LIO ampflication solution if I get the X-1's.
George
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targa02 and jtwrace, What version/amplification are you getting?
I'll use the Vinnie Rossi amp/crossover/eq module. Having it done in the analog domain is the superior way to do it IMO.
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Hopefully at some point (AXPONA 2018 hopefully!!) we can hear a direct comparison of the DEQX and LIO options. Though if this was done in a show situation, it may privilege the DEQX option due to nasty room conditions. DEQX would likely be less needed in a well-treated room. But even there, it can get rid of room effects (and maybe timing or phase issues unrelated to the room) that cannot be addressed through analog or room treatment efforts.
The measurements with Vinnie's analog crossover were certainly VERY impressive, but there are some things that an analog crossover cannot or often do not address (room differences, phase, timing), and my experiences with the DEQX have shown it to be very transparent even when employing its ADC. Certainly the benefits of the DEQX in my system outweigh any slight degradation that the ADC might add. And I have read that the current HDP-4 and HDP-5 are significant improvements over earlier models in terms of their transparency, especially in the ADC.
At the risk of derailing the thread, Jason (or anyone else) I'm curious why you think that the analog domain is superior. On the face of it, I have a hard time seeing advantages, as long as a) everything is in the digital domain and a quality DAC is used and b) there is a high quality ADC used for analog inputs.
Also, IIRC some of the DEQX use a SMPS, in which case those could be replaced with an Ultracapacitor input from Vinnie. Though the steep learning curve of the DEQX would remain.
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targa02 and jtwrace,
Thank for the responses. Two different approaches. Good luck to both of you.
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nCore amps are a great match with Spatial Speakers and the LIO.
That said, I am leaning towards selling my NC1200 mono amps and going with a full LIO ampflication solution if I get the X-1's.
George
George, Selling Veritas, Atsah, or another NC1200 amp?
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George, Selling Veritas, Atsah, or another NC1200 amp?
Atsah.
PM me if interested.
George
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At the risk of derailing the thread, Jason (or anyone else) I'm curious why you think that the analog domain is superior. On the face of it, I have a hard time seeing advantages, as long as a) everything is in the digital domain and a quality DAC is used and b) there is a high quality ADC used for analog inputs.
Also, IIRC some of the DEQX use a SMPS, in which case those could be replaced with an Ultracapacitor input from Vinnie. Though the steep learning curve of the DEQX would remain.
Definitely lets not derail the thread. However, you asked for an opinion so I'll give one. :)
I guess I'm anti another box as it does add cables, AC power among many other things that is anti LIO. Further, I'm a firm believer in fixing the room with treatments and purchase speakers that are designed properly that don't need tweaking in the digital domain to get them "right". Having used DRC in the past you can easily muck-up the sound by "fixing" the curve when what you really need to do is either buy speakers that suite the space and/or fix the room.
This is my opinion after years of doing it both ways and measuring the room.
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I wish I could go with both options!
How far from Pacifica are you?
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How far from Pacifica are you?
I am just a few miles from Pacifica. A 20 minute drive. Are you close by?
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I am just a few miles from Pacifica. A 20 minute drive. Are you close by?
No but my brother lives there. Perhaps I'll bring my LIO with the X1 amp module at some point. ;)
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Hi Jason. That would be great! Even if you don't bring the LIO, please let me know when you are in town. I would like to meet you. Gary
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Hi Jason. That would be great! Even if you don't bring the LIO, please let me know when you are in town. I would like to meet you. Gary
Sounds good! :thumb:
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Clayton,
Can you please comment on the differences between the X1 and the Lumina? Clearly, there are design differences so discussion of that as well as sound and presentation differences would be appreciated.
Thanks,
James
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Saddened to see the price of these continues to jump. From the initial estimate of $10k, we're now at $14k ... :(
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Saddened to see the price of these continues to jump. From the initial estimate of $10k, we're now at $14k ... :(
Hasn't this already been addressed in this thread or the other X1 thread? Or was a change in price mentioned somewhere that I didn't see? There was a difference in domestic vs. internationally pricing that was mentioned, but I think that the take-home from that discussion was that the US price is still ~$10,000 + processing solution of your choice.
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Hasn't this already been addressed in this thread or the other X1 thread? Or was a change in price mentioned somewhere that I didn't see? There was a difference in domestic vs. internationally pricing that was mentioned, but I think that the take-home from that discussion was that the US price is still ~$10,000 + processing solution of your choice.
The price has not actually gone up. The production version is finished in such a way that the surface is not painted MDF now, so the option for a utility flat black version is not possible. The world list price for the gloss finishes was always planned to be $14K, with the utility version originally planned at a world list price of $12K as discussed in prior posts. USA customers can call for factory delivered pricing in the lower 48 states. Sorry if that caused some confusion. We have done everything possible to keep the price reasonable including a serial production line for high volume and quick turnaround times. We have set up a dedicated facility that produces only X1s. The X1 easily competes with speakers at $50K and above, so it a relative bargain.
Clayton Shaw
Spatial Audio
www.spatialaudio.us
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Thanks for the clarification, Clayton. Definitely an exciting product that's high on my aspiration list.
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Apologies if this has been asked before: Clayton, when do you see the X1's coming off the production line and shipping to USA customers?
Thanks
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Apologies if this has been asked before: Clayton, when do you see the X1's coming off the production line and shipping to USA customers?
Thanks
We will start shipping in February.
Clayton
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Here is a shot of the X1 in White with Black trim.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156784)
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Clayton,
Perhaps the question about the price which was posted just after my question caused it to be overlooked so I would like to ask you to review that and give your thoughts.
Thanks,
James
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Clayton,
Can you please comment on the differences between the X1 and the Lumina? Clearly, there are design differences so discussion of that as well as sound and presentation differences would be appreciated.
Thanks,
James
Hi James,
The Lumina and the X1 differ somewhat in terms of hardware, but are based on the same theory. The Lumina is a 3-way design with coaxial mid/treble and a powered, servo bass system. It works and sounds extremely good and was developed in 2014.
With the development of the X1's Uniwave dipole driver that covers a broader spectrum (300Hz to 20kHz) in a single driver, the 3-way approach was no longer necessary. Along with the non-servo 18inch dipole woofer, I was in a position to create a simpler, 2-way design with tremendous performance.
Both designs achieve a similar end result sonically, but the X1 is less expensive and plays louder. The X1 also has better polar performance because of its waveguide design and is faster and more coherent in the lower midrange region. It has a oneness to the sound that I have only heard in full range electrostatic speakers. Impedance plots are shown here. Frequency response is essentially flat due to external EQ. I will post polar plots of the X1 soon. Note the ultra low inductance of the 18 inch woofer. One coil is measured of the two, which is why the plot indicates an 8Ω impedance. The twin coils are wired in parallel in the X1 for a nominal 4Ω result.
Clayton
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156791)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156792)
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Both designs achieve a similar end result sonically, but the X1 is less expensive and plays louder. The X1 also has better polar performance because of its waveguide design and is faster and more coherent in the lower midrange region. It has a oneness to the sound that I have only heard in full range electrostatic speakers.
I surmised as much! Yes, my money would be on the X1, but I have a tremendous bias for well designed waveguide based designs :wink:
Very much looking forward to the polar plots Clayton! :thumb:
Best,
Anand.
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Hi Clayton
I was talking to a friend in the US a few days ago about the X1 speakers and he told me he was quoted $12,000 for the speakers rather than the $14,000 shown on the Spatial website.
Hope you don't mind me asking but is this because you have an agreement with your overseas distributors that you won' give non US buyers the discounted rate you offer youe US customer's?
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Hi Clayton
I was talking to a friend in the US a few days ago about the X1 speakers and he told me he was quoted $12,000 for the speakers rather than the $14,000 shown on the Spatial website.
Hope you don't mind me asking but is this because you have an agreement with your overseas distributors that you won' give non US buyers the discounted rate you offer youe US customer's?
The listed world price is $14K. Shipments outside the US involve all kinds of fees, taxes, import duties and overseas freight. Local freight is the only cost involved for USA customers, so naturally the price is lower for them. Our website clearly states that USA customers can call for local pricing and freight estimates. If you have specific price or purchase questions for your country, please email me directly at claytonshawis@gmail.com
Thanks,
Clayton Shaw
Spatial Audio
www.spatialaudio.us
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Here is a shot of the X1 in White with Black trim.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156784)
Wow, this is the best looking version so far (if you asked me).
Is this gloss white or satin white?
Also, is there something on the top and the sides? It looks as if there is some gray line on the sides and a gray cover on the top? If there is, I guess this can also be in black.
Is it ok to assume pricing is as follows?
$10 000 - Regular finish US market
$12 000 - Regular finish world market
$12 000 - Gloss finish US market
$14 000 - Gloss finish world market
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Wow, this is the best looking version so far (if you asked me).
Is this gloss white or satin white?
Also, is there something on the top and the sides? It looks as if there is some gray line on the sides and a gray cover on the top? If there is, I guess this can also be in black.
Is it ok to assume pricing is as follows?
$10 000 - Regular finish US market
$12 000 - Regular finish world market
$12 000 - Gloss finish US market
$14 000 - Gloss finish world market
Why not just call, e-mail or PM directly?
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Agree that the production model is visually stunning... great job on the form factor, Clayton... hearkens back to Evett & Shaw days of the Elan and the gorgeous Flatte amp. Ken Askew
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Agree that the production model is visually stunning... great job on the form factor, Clayton... hearkens back to Evett & Shaw days of the Elan and the gorgeous Flatte amp. Ken Askew
Hey Ken! :wave:
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All,
I forgot to post here regarding the LAAS Show, where the production Spatial Audio X1s made their official sonic debut:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150692.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150692.0)
Cheers!
Vinnie
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Howdy! Thanks for the welcome.
Wandered away from these pages quite a while ago... been through several systems & glad to wander back.
I'm now enthusiastically in the fold of OB and especially OB servo bass (currently happily running the Spatial Lumina Be). Big fan of Clayton. :D
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This one was just posted today by PartTimeAudiophile:
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/07/01/la-audio-show-2017-spatial-speakers-and-vinnie-rossi-lio-literally-made-for-each-other/#jp-carousel-64676 (https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/07/01/la-audio-show-2017-spatial-speakers-and-vinnie-rossi-lio-literally-made-for-each-other/#jp-carousel-64676)
Vinnie
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It sounds cool! Can't wait to hear it!
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I think the German HiFi magazine Stereoplay did a review of the X1 a few weeks back in the June issue. Any chance of posting a translation here, Clayton?
Thanks
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There is an English version of the review on the home page of our website: www.spatialaudio.us
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There is an English version of the review on the home page of our website: www.spatialaudio.us
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/52b20c42e4b07f099f85e8dd/t/594aa385e110eb35bcfa45ff/1498063751671/230+T%26T+Digital-Aktivbox+Spatial+X-1+stereoplay+2017-06_lowres_pdf.pdf
George
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Can't help thinking that it might have been better if they had used the Vinnie Rossie solution (as an example) instead of mixing and matching a Unison hybrid and a Brinkmann.
Then again, some might want to use a SET for the uniwave and a SS for the bass...
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This LAAS Show Coverage page was just posted yesterday by Robert E. Greene of The Absolute Sound:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/a-quick-tour-of-the-la-audio-show-with-reg/ (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/a-quick-tour-of-the-la-audio-show-with-reg/)
Clayton Shaw presented a new (to me) speaker dubbed the Spatial Audio X1 Uniwave. This is a dipole bass plus wave-guided compression driver operating from 300Hz up, bi-amped (the compression driver’s sensitivity is so much higher than the dipole bass’ that only bi-amping makes sense). Driven by Vinnie Rossi’s electronics, the speaker gave a depiction of orchestral sound of truly remarkable realism. I cannot recall any show demo ever that sounded more like an orchestra than this, and there have been few that were its equal. In a moderately large room—the exhibit was in a suite-sized room—this system was producing both truthful timbres and a stunning sense of the recording venue’s actual space on one of my perennial test CDs, Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances, Dallas, Mata conducting on ProArte (not the dry-as-dust Johanos-conducted Dallas recording). I have heard this recording many, many times on many systems. This was one of the best, with a really surprising sense of the spatial and sonic scale of an orchestra—what I personally think of as the “Wednesday night” experience (Wednesday nights being when the orchestra I play in rehearses). And, as mentioned, one really felt transported to the acoustics of the recording venue. The speakers sounded natural and convincing on smaller-scale music as well. Harnoy/Dussek’s Schubert Arpeggione Sonata (cello and piano, on RCA) was bewitching in its tonal naturalness and spatial realism as well. At $14,000 a pair ($17,500 in wood finish), these X1 Uniwaves offer so much that one has to consider them a real bargain as well as masterpieces on their own, independent of price, if I can go by my vivid first impressions. (I was fascinated and went back several times.) This system may be a bit difficult to find for audition at first, until it becomes as established as it deserves to be. But meanwhile, as the Michelin travel guides say of their top-rated things to see (or in this case, to hear), it is “worth a journey.” (Pending editorial approval you can expect a review.)
Thanks for visiting (multiple times), REG, and thanks for posting your impressions! 8)
Vinnie
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Congratulations, Vinnie & Clayton!
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Wow! What a review!
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Wow! What a review!
Especially coming from Robert Greene, an exceedingly knowledgable, thorough, experienced and insightful analyst.If I were in this market (i.e., if I could afford them!), I would buy sight unseen on the basis of that review and my opinion of R.E.G.
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Especially coming from Robert Greene, an exceedingly knowledgable, thorough, experienced and insightful analyst.If I were in this market (i.e., if I could afford them!), I would buy sight unseen on the basis of that review and my opinion of R.E.G.
I agree! Now I'm really glad I have a pair on order.
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Thanks, guys! :beer:
We'll have the LIO DHT Integrated (with X1 AMP module) + SPATIAL X1's at the RMAF show this October. I hope to
see many of you AC'ers there!
Vinnie
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Especially coming from Robert Greene, an exceedingly knowledgable, thorough, experienced and insightful analyst.If I were in this market (i.e., if I could afford them!), I would buy sight unseen on the basis of that review and my opinion of R.E.G.
Exactly what I was thinking. Robert Greene is one of the few reviewers I would trust enough to make a blind purchase.
Would love to hear the X1 - Lio combo.
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I would never purchase speakers blind. Been there, done that. Never ever again. :nono:
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I agree! Now I'm really glad I have a pair on order.
Me too! Along with the LIO, I am very excited to have this set up in my living room! :drool:
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Hello jtwrace.
is still available the bent tap??
thnks
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Anyone know the thread size of the footers?
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Anyone know the thread size of the footers?
Yes - the thread size is 3/8-16
Clayton
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Clayton,
Could you double up the 18's, increase the sensitivity and do a passive version of the X1?
pawsman
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Clayton,
Could you double up the 18's, increase the sensitivity and do a passive version of the X1?
pawsman
The 18 inch woofer is a dual voice coil design, running parallel at 4 Ohms. So you can't gain sensitivity by adding a second woofer because parallel would make the speaker 2 Ohms and series connection would yield an 8 Ohm impedance but have the same sensitivity. So you would really need 4 woofers to play that game. A better approach is to create a passive network, using an autoformer to match the horn level to the woofer.
Clayton
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Noticed today that the X1 is no longer on the Spatial Audio website. I looked here to see if there was a thread announcing this model had been discontinued but do not see one. So has the X1 been discontinued and if so why?
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Noticed today that the X1 is no longer on the Spatial Audio website. I looked here to see if there was a thread announcing this model had been discontinued but do not see one. So has the X1 been discontinued and if so why?
We have a Mk2 version coming soon. We will announce it on our website later in the spring - around Axpona time. The website is under construction as well, so various content is missing at the moment.
Clayton
www.spatialaudio.us