[dvenardos]

Will do, thanks.

Try this: Pick a piece of music with a clean intro using an acoustic instrument. A guitar will be great. Some clean unprocessed vocals won't hurt either. But just start with the intro. Play about the first 10 to 20 seconds of it only. Play it five or six times in a row. Really listen to it and its details. Basically, memorize it. Then switch. Listen for not just the notes, but the space between the notes. Listen for the noise floor. Do the notes run together or is there is clear space. Go back an forth again.

[critofur]

Danny: what do you think of the beginning of "Never Going Back Again" for speaker testing?  I find with most "high end" commercial speakers you find at boutique stores that it brings out the harshness of their overly bright tweeters quite well.  On the other hand, when I played it on the Revel Salon Ultimas, I thought "this sounds clean, clear, natural, and pleasant". 

I want to hear these.  I live in Columbus, OH.  I have a pair of the stock ones currently.

I assume that difference in sound of capacitors is, at most, subtle.

I think (based on the scientific tests I have read about) that difference in sound of cables is patently absurd, if the resistance is not different.  My bias towards cable sound is probably too strong for me to be able to hear, if there was actually a difference.

However, I feel that I am open to hearing a cap sound difference, even though I am skeptical.

[dBe]

Danny: what do you think of the beginning of "Never Going Back Again" for speaker testing?  I find with most "high end" commercial speakers you find at boutique stores that it brings out the harshness of their overly bright tweeters quite well.  On the other hand, when I played it on the Revel Salon Ultimas, I thought "this sounds clean, clear, natural, and pleasant". 

I want to hear these.  I live in Columbus, OH.  I have a pair of the stock ones currently.

I assume that difference in sound of capacitors is, at most, subtle.

I think (based on the scientific tests I have read about) that difference in sound of cables is patently absurd, if the resistance is not different.  My bias towards cable sound is probably too strong for me to be able to hear, if there was actually a difference.

However, I feel that I am open to hearing a cap sound difference, even though I am skeptical.

What you: "assume, think and read" may be simply wrong.  Do yourself a favor and make the effort to learn something instead of making comments like "patently absurd" in a forum where people know better.  In this setting it will just lead to a shouting match and none of us really want that.  Reality trumps disinformation every time.  There is always the possibility that you can't hear the differences for physiological differences, but I very much doubt that.  You listen to music and hit several forums.  "I read it in a book" isn't 'listening'. 

Kick back and enjoy.  This is a great place to learn   

Dave

[Danny Richie]

I want to hear these.  I live in Columbus, OH.  I have a pair of the stock ones currently.

No problem.

I think (based on the scientific tests I have read about) that difference in sound of cables is patently absurd, if the resistance is not different.  My bias towards cable sound is probably too strong for me to be able to hear, if there was actually a difference.

Give us details about your system so we can see what we are dealing with and I will be glad to send you some cables to sample too. Then you can hear for yourself whether or not it is absurd.

[critofur]

Give us details about your system so we can see what we are dealing with and I will be glad to send you some cables to sample too. Then you can hear for yourself whether or not it is absurd.

Hmm - well I guess this is not the place to try to say why or even my opinion, about cables - sorry?  My background a little first, then my listening situation...

When I was a kid my dad owned a stereo store which had a record store adjacent to it (~ 1970s).  My birthday present when I was eight was a Dyna SCA-35 Integrated Tube Amp ( http://www.quadesl.com/refurb/refurb_dynaSCA35.html ), a Gerard? turntable, and a pair of "db" brand 2-way 8" paper woofer / paper cone tweeter (aluminum dust cap) vented bookshelf speakers.  For many many years I enjoyed listening to music with that system - there was nothing unpleasant about the sound, listening to music was simply enjoyable.  I lost all of that gear eventually for various reasons. 

Flash forward to the most recent decade or so, [almost] all the commercial speakers I listen to have a sound ranging from mediocre to terrible.  Stuff at Best Buy is just weak, flimsy resonant boxes, cheap easily distorting woofers, metal/mylar tweeters with FR like a roller coaster...  And the "high end" stuff?  Well, take something like mid/high end B&W for example - as soon as they start playing my ears start hurting from the overly bright harsh tweeters.  I've gone to audition in Manhattan, Tokyo, various other places listening to speakers ranging from $100 - $20,000 (have not bothered to listen to anything above that price range).  And the only speakers I actually really liked were the Madrigal Revel Salon Ultimas.  So, I read up on them, read about the Harmon group and their test labs... 

Other related experience: I spent a few years working with a gentleman who has been in the audio speaker industry for over 30 years, he's worked with the likes of Bob Carver (he built the first prototype for Bob's Sunfire sub, for example (still has it on the shelf at his factory) etc. etc.  I discussed with him in depth the possibility of different cables "sounding" different and he went over many tests that he has personally conducted and testing that other people and companies have done, personal conversations he'd had with folks like Floyd Toole.....   In conclusion, after decades of experience with various sorts of testing with many different sorts of people participating there was one type of situation where there was a genuine audible difference between different speaker cables and that was: cables that were thin enough that there was a significantly greater resistance, which, has a varying degree of effect changing with frequency.  So, I didn't "just read it in a book somewhere".

As to my listening situation - I've got an Onkyo TX-DS787 receiver, various T-amps, a Sure 4 x 100 Tripath chip amp, a cheap old Sony receiver, and a Jolida 102B amp which, unfortuantely, is in need of repair.  For a source I use either an old Sony CD changer, a portable CD player, or FLAC files on my PC played through Foobar2000.  I have various soundcards including some with > 100 db sn ratio and a Berhinger 1024USB mixer with external USB sound in / out.

As to the idea of different amps sounding different, I would say that between solid state amps the difference should be insignificant relative to the differences between different speakers / rooms.  I'm not saying there isn't a difference, I'm saying, logically, it should be so small as to be irrelevant [so long as there is ample headroom and the dynamic peaks of the music you are playing can be adequately driven by your amp].  Despite that, I do typically "feel" that my Onkyo amp is somehow "cold" sounding.  It has plenty of power - given a good pair of speakers capable of playing loud and clean, I can play music loud enough to feel like I'm at front + center stage at a rock concert.  When I had a friend over who was a "metal" fan and played some Ministry at "reference level, - 0.0 db, his jaw dropped at how loud, clean, and clear the sound was.  But...  that system (and various similar configurations as I mixed and matched) just didn't give me the enjoyment that I had had with the cheap old system I used to have.  Music wasn't "engaging", didn't have the same vibrancy/energy + therapeutic soothing appeal that I missed.

The best illustration I can give as to what I'm seeking, that is missing is: if you listen to a cello in an intimate setting you don't just hear the music - you feel the vibration on your skin, through the floor with your feet, it moves you viscerally.  The only time I could come close to that was when I listened in my car with the subwoofer on at volumes that damaged my hearing.

I have designed speakers which are a commercial succes and received rave reviews.  I think they are decent, as far as speakers in the ~$1,000 price range go.  They do some things really well, and it was fun to demo them and see how surprised people got when they heard them.  But, compared to the $20K Ultimas, there are some areas where they don't quite reach the same level of performance. 

I have started quite a few designs for myself, but always stopped part way through as I find deficiencies...  (And my wife tells me to come inside from the garage - we've got a couple kids now and I have a non-speaker related job, and am a full time college student again after a ~20 year hiatus).

I bought a pair of the B2031P thinking back to how I had enjoyed my old 8" bookshelf speakers, wishing to just enjoy some music on a modest system again - currently sitting on my desk they're a little too boomy, and there's a little harshness to the tweeters (perhaps the vents cause some audible diffraction issues?).  I suppose I could enjoy listening to them if I adjust the bass, add a couple braces to the cabinet, but most of all, forget about listening to speakers and not be critical - just pretend I don't know any better

EDIT:  Do you think any of the mid-range capacitors sold at parts express would be adequate for hearing a difference?  I wouldn't mind buying some caps and inductors and replicating your crossover switch experiment.  I would setup a toggle switch so I could instantly switch back and forth.  I am a skeptic, but, I am also willing to try.

[mingo]

Do yourself a favor and make the effort to learn something instead of making comments like "patently absurd" in a forum where people know better. 

Uh...right....

[critofur]

Uh...right....

It's his subforum ("circle") - I'm sorry I said it that way - I hope my last (long) post isn't too offensive...

[Danny Richie]

Flash forward to the most recent decade or so, [almost] all the commercial speakers I listen to have a sound ranging from mediocre to terrible.  Stuff at Best Buy is just weak, flimsy resonant boxes, cheap easily distorting woofers, metal/mylar tweeters with FR like a roller coaster...  And the "high end" stuff?  Well, take something like mid/high end B&W for example - as soon as they start playing my ears start hurting from the overly bright harsh tweeters.

You are very correct on all of those accounts. So we know you can hear. 

I've gone to audition in Manhattan, Tokyo, various other places listening to speakers ranging from $100 - $20,000

As you move up the food chain you can get into some really good stuff, but not always. Price is not always a way to measure performance in this hobby. There are ways to get there without spending a lot of money and if you stick around we'll get you there if that's where you want to go.

Unfortunately most of your gear is along those same lines as some of those commercial speakers that you described. Your Jolita amp (that needs repair) might be your only real piece that gets out of the budget performance range. However, the T-amps have proven to be pretty transparent and can sound like whatever the front end is that you are using them with. An off the grid T-amp can work pretty well with efficient speakers.

Also, as you move up the food chain you will find that everything effects everything and it is harder to find gear that sounds the same than sounds different. Everything tends to sound different in some way.

If you wanted to listen to the effects and differences of cables then I typically like to start with the power. Sounds like most of your gear may not have removable power cords though.

Do you think any of the mid-range capacitors sold at parts express would be adequate for hearing a difference?

They will be better than the cheap electrolytic stuff used in a lot of those mass marketed speakers at Best Buy, but not a lot different than the caps in your Behringer's.

I'd start with comparing the speakers. You can compare the demo pair with the stock crossovers to yours and then try the upgraded crossovers in the demo pair and see (or hear) what the differences are for yourself and then go from there.

There is also some speaker cables that come with the demo Behringer's so you can make some comparisons with that too.

[dBe]

It's his subforum ("circle") - I'm sorry I said it that way - I hope my last (long) post isn't too offensive...

Not at all.  It is my hope that I didn't come off combative in mine, either.

I made my "read it in a book" comment in response to this statement in your first post: "I think (based on the scientific tests I have read about) that difference in sound of cables is patently absurd, if the resistance is not different."  I can guarantee you that I can take two 5' long pieces of wire cut from a single 10' long piece, do a few voodoo passes, pour a little 'snakeoil' on one of them and have two seemingly identical pieces of wire that sound curiously different, if not amazingly so.     I do it all of the time and have built a good business on that premise and process. I NEVER get cables back from my customers even with a 30 day 'no questions asked or needed' return policy.  Who knew?  Certainly not I 15 years ago.   

After reading your background I can absolutely understand where you are coming from in regards to all of this.  Basically it is the same place that we all "came from".  As I have stated on numerous occasions on the PE forum I was an adamant flat earth, objectivist when before I really started to "learn" about audio.  This was after more than 20 years hold steadfastly to my belief system.  Fortunately an wise theoretical physiscist got a hold on me and told me something that I will never forget: "Frankly speaking, even with all of the knowledge that he cling to we really don't fully understand why most of this works.  Remember - I am a theoretical physicist."  He gave me my first VHQ capacitors and clued me in to the POOGE thing.  You know: Progressive Optimization Of Otherwise Generic Equipment.  By the time I was done, I had completely rebuilt my NAD 3140 amplifier into a freaking sonic monster for very little $$$.  So began my road to perdition... and my never ending quest as to "Why" and "How".

AC is a great place to draw upon the exoerience of many others that have made similar journeys.  Wwe still have a few Pooh-poohers, but most of us are here because we have given up on trying to add to the knowledge base in other forums (and I know that you know what I mean) and are here to have a common level of communication where we can build upon the existing art of audio.  It is a science, for sure, but the real joy comes from listening to something that we have built, massaged , tweaked and made it the absolute best that it can be.  There is a very large "who knew" quotient in audio.

Opinions are always welcomed here.  It is just best to not come out swinging as a new poster.  That was my point.

As for caps that are good from PE the Jantzens are a step up from the Solens and lack the graininess that Solens have to my ears.  The Z-Standard is quite good.  The Dayton caps don't suck. but are a little (and when I say a little I mean a little closed in in comparison to the Z-Caps.  Wolf is a great resource on caps, too.  I would suggest, however, that you give the Sonicaps a try.  They are worth it IME.

Remember that the series capacitor and the series attenuating resistor are a system.  If you change out the cap be sure to change the resistor to a Mills.

I sincerely hope that you enjoy your journey here at AC.  It is a great place with great people that won't bust your chops just for sport    That is a very good thing.

My best,

Dave

[Danny Richie]

I am a skeptic, but, I am also willing to try.

Oh yeah. I second what Dave said. We have all been there.

[werd]

It's his subforum ("circle") - I'm sorry I said it that way - I hope my last (long) post isn't too offensive...

Hello

To me the post sounded way more mis-informed than offensive. I have grown used to it like most others here so its not a big deal.

The thing with hearing a difference in cables and internal tweaks like caps is the caliber of gear you are gauging the tweaks with. Typically HT recievers are not a great listening tool to do this and this includes the expensive ones. They just aren't, infact people find and including myself differences are only heard by changing out Brands amongst recievers. Thats because they are just not sensitive enough to respond to changes in cables and small internal changes.

That brings me to my point. Gear now and including gear built by Danny are very sensitive to changes. You start seeing sensitive gear in more audiophile brands including brands from manufactures on this board. Like GR research, Purity audio and Bryston. These caliber of electronics will give you the engineering that will respond to small changes in pretty much every thing you do to it.

So listen to Danny he knows his stuff and he doesn't put his business ahead of the hobby. He tells it like it is. 

[jtwrace]

he doesn't put his business ahead of the hobby. He tells it like it is. 

His business is his hobby.      

[werd]

His business is his hobby.      

Yah i know that....hehe. But i see tons of speaker manufactures misinforming people about the importance/unimportance of partnering electronics to make their speakers look better then they are. Not interested pointing fingers but lets just leave it at that.

[dBe]

Hello

The thing with hearing a difference in cables and internal tweaks like caps is the caliber of gear you are gauging the tweaks with. Typically HT recievers are not a great listening tool to do this and this includes the expensive ones. They just aren't, infact people find and including myself differences are only heard by changing out Brands amongst recievers. Thats because they are just not sensitive enough to respond to changes in cables and small internal changes.

So listen to Danny he knows his stuff and he doesn't put his business ahead of the hobby. He tells it like it is. 

The problem with most HT Receivers or receivers in general is the 6-10 crappy electrolytic coupling capacitors in the signal path along with the switching.  It is like trying to pour a gallon of liquid through a garden hose all at once.

With Danny, as well as many of us "little guys" our hobby became an obsession that turned into a business that is still our hobby.  I love workinng in the industry of enjoyment and satisfaction... most of the time 

Dave

[werd]

The problem with most HT Receivers or receivers in general is the 6-10 crappy electrolytic coupling capacitors in the signal path along with the switching.  It is like trying to pour a gallon of liquid through a garden hose all at once.

With Danny, as well as many of us "little guys" our hobby became an obsession that turned into a business that is still our hobby.  I love workinng in the industry of enjoyment and satisfaction... most of the time 

Dave

Hehe.... O and the quality of AC too. Any potential differences will be washed away by lousy AC. Very often if you plug a receiver into the wall the quality of AC will destroy any potential for hearing differences (if there was any to begin with). Its just the way the hobby has played out. You need good AC, its one of the first things you find out when you start taking it seriously.

[dBe]

Hehe.... O and the quality of AC too. Any potential differences will be washed away by lousy AC. Very often if you plug a receiver into the wall the quality of AC will destroy any potential for hearing differences (if there was any to begin with). Its just the way the hobby has played out. You need good AC, its one of the first things you find out when you start taking it seriously.

Do ya THINK!!!   

 

Dave

[werd]

Do ya THINK!!!   

 

Dave

don't know.... i was just throwing it out there..... 

[PDR]

Funny you would mention your friend workiing with Bob Carver...... go to one of the Carver sites
and look into what he says when someone wants to change the wiring on one of his open baffle creations
His take on all amps sound the same is a little different also....

Stick with Danny, hes a great designer and teacher.....My V1s sound better than most I have heard at almost any price point

[HAL]

Hmm - well I guess this is not the place to try to say why or even my opinion, about cables - sorry?  My background a little first, then my listening situation...

When I was a kid my dad owned a stereo store which had a record store adjacent to it (~ 1970s).  My birthday present when I was eight was a Dyna SCA-35 Integrated Tube Amp ( http://www.quadesl.com/refurb/refurb_dynaSCA35.html ), a Gerard? turntable, and a pair of "db" brand 2-way 8" paper woofer / paper cone tweeter (aluminum dust cap) vented bookshelf speakers.  For many many years I enjoyed listening to music with that system - there was nothing unpleasant about the sound, listening to music was simply enjoyable.  I lost all of that gear eventually for various reasons. 

Flash forward to the most recent decade or so, [almost] all the commercial speakers I listen to have a sound ranging from mediocre to terrible.  Stuff at Best Buy is just weak, flimsy resonant boxes, cheap easily distorting woofers, metal/mylar tweeters with FR like a roller coaster...  And the "high end" stuff?  Well, take something like mid/high end B&W for example - as soon as they start playing my ears start hurting from the overly bright harsh tweeters.  I've gone to audition in Manhattan, Tokyo, various other places listening to speakers ranging from $100 - $20,000 (have not bothered to listen to anything above that price range).  And the only speakers I actually really liked were the Madrigal Revel Salon Ultimas.  So, I read up on them, read about the Harmon group and their test labs... 

Other related experience: I spent a few years working with a gentleman who has been in the audio speaker industry for over 30 years, he's worked with the likes of Bob Carver (he built the first prototype for Bob's Sunfire sub, for example (still has it on the shelf at his factory) etc. etc.  I discussed with him in depth the possibility of different cables "sounding" different and he went over many tests that he has personally conducted and testing that other people and companies have done, personal conversations he'd had with folks like Floyd Toole.....   In conclusion, after decades of experience with various sorts of testing with many different sorts of people participating there was one type of situation where there was a genuine audible difference between different speaker cables and that was: cables that were thin enough that there was a significantly greater resistance, which, has a varying degree of effect changing with frequency.  So, I didn't "just read it in a book somewhere".

As to my listening situation - I've got an Onkyo TX-DS787 receiver, various T-amps, a Sure 4 x 100 Tripath chip amp, a cheap old Sony receiver, and a Jolida 102B amp which, unfortuantely, is in need of repair.  For a source I use either an old Sony CD changer, a portable CD player, or FLAC files on my PC played through Foobar2000.  I have various soundcards including some with > 100 db sn ratio and a Berhinger 1024USB mixer with external USB sound in / out.

As to the idea of different amps sounding different, I would say that between solid state amps the difference should be insignificant relative to the differences between different speakers / rooms.  I'm not saying there isn't a difference, I'm saying, logically, it should be so small as to be irrelevant [so long as there is ample headroom and the dynamic peaks of the music you are playing can be adequately driven by your amp].  Despite that, I do typically "feel" that my Onkyo amp is somehow "cold" sounding.  It has plenty of power - given a good pair of speakers capable of playing loud and clean, I can play music loud enough to feel like I'm at front + center stage at a rock concert.  When I had a friend over who was a "metal" fan and played some Ministry at "reference level, - 0.0 db, his jaw dropped at how loud, clean, and clear the sound was.  But...  that system (and various similar configurations as I mixed and matched) just didn't give me the enjoyment that I had had with the cheap old system I used to have.  Music wasn't "engaging", didn't have the same vibrancy/energy + therapeutic soothing appeal that I missed.

The best illustration I can give as to what I'm seeking, that is missing is: if you listen to a cello in an intimate setting you don't just hear the music - you feel the vibration on your skin, through the floor with your feet, it moves you viscerally.  The only time I could come close to that was when I listened in my car with the subwoofer on at volumes that damaged my hearing.

I have designed speakers which are a commercial succes and received rave reviews.  I think they are decent, as far as speakers in the ~$1,000 price range go.  They do some things really well, and it was fun to demo them and see how surprised people got when they heard them.  But, compared to the $20K Ultimas, there are some areas where they don't quite reach the same level of performance. 

I have started quite a few designs for myself, but always stopped part way through as I find deficiencies...  (And my wife tells me to come inside from the garage - we've got a couple kids now and I have a non-speaker related job, and am a full time college student again after a ~20 year hiatus).

I bought a pair of the B2031P thinking back to how I had enjoyed my old 8" bookshelf speakers, wishing to just enjoy some music on a modest system again - currently sitting on my desk they're a little too boomy, and there's a little harshness to the tweeters (perhaps the vents cause some audible diffraction issues?).  I suppose I could enjoy listening to them if I adjust the bass, add a couple braces to the cabinet, but most of all, forget about listening to speakers and not be critical - just pretend I don't know any better

EDIT:  Do you think any of the mid-range capacitors sold at parts express would be adequate for hearing a difference?  I wouldn't mind buying some caps and inductors and replicating your crossover switch experiment.  I would setup a toggle switch so I could instantly switch back and forth.  I am a skeptic, but, I am also willing to try.

I know this is off topic, but how do you like the SURE 100x4 Tripath amp board?  I see them at PE advertised alot.

[critofur]

I'm sorry to say that I've only listened to it with a 1 amp wall wart thus far, I would say it sounds good, but I'm not giving it enough power to turn it up to a decent loud level for proper evaluation. 

I will need to haul my big Onkyo receiver in from the garage, buy an SPL meter (or, measure a sin sweep with my mic using my PC) to set the levels equal, hookup the proper power supply I got in the mail the other week and do a proper A/B comparison...

An even better option would be buying the replacement caps I need to repair my Jolida tube amp and throw that in the mix.