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Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: rebbi on 9 Nov 2017, 03:03 am

Title: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: rebbi on 9 Nov 2017, 03:03 am
Read and enjoy, but sit down with a cup of your favorite beverage because it's a long one.   :lol:

Steve's Audio Blog (https://stevefolberg.wordpress.com/2017/11/08/enlightened-engineering-musical-magic-the-spatial-m3-turbo-s-open-baffle-speaker-system/)
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: dyfromhawaii on 9 Nov 2017, 04:06 am
since you previously had an Ohm Microwalsh set @ $1400, can you provide a short paragraph comparison between it the the Spatial?
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: ric on 9 Nov 2017, 03:32 pm
Yes, I think I tend to agree. Long with enthusiasm is fine in my book. Also agree with the observations, I guess I should consider myself lucky that both my amp and room have not been a problem, as I love the sound and every new listening session can be an adventure with the right material.
I thought I would have had to get rid of my Shakti Hallograph knockoff's with the open baffle speaker, but I find that sometimes the on axis directionality  can sometimes be "in my face" so it is great to have these hallographs to adjust the soundstage, which tends to be (but not always) out facing (a 45degree reflection point for large scale music and toed in for smaller ensembles).
Still wondering whether it would be worth upgrading to the triode master as these will probably be my last speakers (yeah, right!)
Thanks so much!
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: rebbi on 9 Nov 2017, 04:58 pm
since you previously had an Ohm Microwalsh set @ $1400, can you provide a short paragraph comparison between it the the Spatial?

Golly, it's been a long time since I had those speakers in my listening room (by the way, they were followed by the 100's, which at the time were the next largest model up the line).
I think the major thing with a pseudo-omni-radiating design like the Ohm's is whether or not the way that they present the music floats your boat, so to speak. They do have a room filling quality that is quite different than any forward-radiating speaker. For a while, I found it quite wonderful. But, at the same time, they don't image anything like a forward radiating speaker. Personally, I found their imaging rather vague, and that just made me crazy after a while. Also, although, tonally, they are unfailingly pleasant and smooth to listen to, in my room, with my gear, I always found them to lack a certain clarity, as if some details were being left "on the table."
To me, the Spatial Hologram series is kind of the best of both worlds. It will throw a huge, immersive, three-dimensional image when the recording calls for it, while at the same time offering very specific imaging (again, when the recording calls for it).
That said, I know a group of people on Audiogon who absolutely swear by the Ohm Walsh line. Again, it all depends upon whether you like that presentation or not.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Francation on 9 Nov 2017, 07:07 pm
Great review! Has me stoked for mine to arrive...
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: SFDude on 9 Nov 2017, 09:26 pm
rebbi, SOLID REVIEW! And I have a similar room but not as compromised as yours. Definitely same situation in that I roll a bed into it for guests when they stay.

Great read.

-dave
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: rebbi on 9 Nov 2017, 09:50 pm
rebbi, SOLID REVIEW! And I have a similar room but not as compromised as yours. Definitely same situation in that I roll a bed into it for guests when they stay.

Great read.

-dave

Thank you, Dave!  :D
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: rebbi on 9 Nov 2017, 09:51 pm
rebbi, SOLID REVIEW! And I have a similar room but not as compromised as yours. Definitely same situation in that I roll a bed into it for guests when they stay.

Great read.

-dave

When do you expect yours to arrive?
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: SFDude on 9 Nov 2017, 09:54 pm
Have been an M3TS owner for about a year now. :) Still enjoying them. I should consider a Krell integrated too but I just pitched in for this new Icepower amp that bavmike is offering. Will see how that works out. :)

-dave
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: mcgsxr on 9 Nov 2017, 11:07 pm
I have owned (and built) a fair number of OB speakers over the years. 

To my ears, there is something special about the way OB speakers present music.  I don't have a lot of success translating that into verbiage, but it always hits me when I hear it.

Great review, and clearly a speaker that hits you where you live!  I enjoyed the balance of the review, and the various "side streets" you took the reader down as you laid out the background, system and room etc.

Good stuff!
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: rebbi on 9 Nov 2017, 11:09 pm
I have owned (and built) a fair number of OB speakers over the years. 

To my ears, there is something special about the way OB speakers present music.  I don't have a lot of success translating that into verbiage, but it always hits me when I hear it.

Great review, and clearly a speaker that hits you where you live!  I enjoyed the balance of the review, and the various "side streets" you took the reader down as you laid out the background, system and room etc.

Good stuff!

Your kind comments make me happy.   :)
Several times while writing it, I thought, "Nobody's going to slog through this entire thing.   :lol:
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 10 Nov 2017, 12:59 am
I can relate to your experience with the SET and the M3ts. In my case it was not a power house Krell or anything like that, but a lowly little TPA-3116 (which can be purchased for $20) that clearly sounded superior to my treasured tube amp. Any one freaking tube in that amp cost a lot more than the TPA-3116. And when I say that the cheap little SS amp sounded superior to the SET, I mean by a very wide night and day margin. It was as if the Dynamo with the NOS tubes was worth $20 and the little chip amp was worth 10K.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: rebbi on 10 Nov 2017, 01:54 am
I can relate to your experience with the SET and the M3ts. In my case it was not a power house Krell or anything like that, but a lowly little TPA-3116 (which can be purchased for $20) that clearly sounded superior to my treasured tube amp. Any one freaking tube in that amp cost a lot more than the TPA-3116. And when I say that the cheap little SS amp sounded superior to the SET, I mean by a very wide night and day margin. It was as if the Dynamo with the NOS tubes was worth $20 and the little chip amp was worth 10K.

 Yes, I can totally believe that. It was a shocker for me. When I plugged that monster (400 W into 4 ohms!) into my rig, I fully expected flat, bright, obnoxious and unpleasant. Instead, as I said, every wonderful thing about that speaker got much more wonderful. That’s why I tried to make the review not only (primarily) about the speaker itself, but about having an open mind about these things. You just don’t know how something is going to sound until you try it.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: NavyDoc on 10 Nov 2017, 08:50 pm
Very nice review, it was well worth the wait.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Vlad on 10 Nov 2017, 10:29 pm
Thanks for the review Rebbi! Very detailed and informative.

What is your room size? It looks like the speakers are set up at the long wall, correct?

Thanks,
Vlad
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: rebbi on 10 Nov 2017, 10:30 pm
Very nice review, it was well worth the wait.

So glad you liked it, thank you!
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: rebbi on 10 Nov 2017, 10:30 pm
Thanks for the review Rebbi! Very detailed and informative.

What is your room size? It looks like the speakers are set up at the long wall, correct?

Thanks,
Vlad

It's something like 13' x 16', and the speakers are long the longer wall, that's correct.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: k6davis on 10 Nov 2017, 11:34 pm
I really enjoyed your thorough and thoughtful review. And "certainty makes you certain" is a keeper. Thanks!
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: rebbi on 11 Nov 2017, 12:00 am
I really enjoyed your thorough and thoughtful review. And "certainty makes you certain" is a keeper. Thanks!

I'm so glad! You know, there's no advertising on the site – I just do it for the pleasure of it and feedback like yours makes it worthwhile. And yes, the grad school professor I mentioned had a lot of wonderful and very funny sayings, but that's always been one of my favorites. :-)
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: mpv on 22 Feb 2018, 03:37 am
I can relate to your experience with the SET and the M3ts. In my case it was not a power house Krell or anything like that, but a lowly little TPA-3116 (which can be purchased for $20) that clearly sounded superior to my treasured tube amp. Any one freaking tube in that amp cost a lot more than the TPA-3116. And when I say that the cheap little SS amp sounded superior to the SET, I mean by a very wide night and day margin. It was as if the Dynamo with the NOS tubes was worth $20 and the little chip amp was worth 10K.
That's RIDICULOUS .........If this is true Coincident and other big names in Audio Industry won't survive,my friend.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 22 Feb 2018, 04:21 am
That's RIDICULOUS .........If this is true Coincident and other big names in Audio Industry won't survive,my friend.

It’s not ridiculous, there’s something you’re not taking into account which apparently isn’t so obvious. Check your message box.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: mpv on 22 Feb 2018, 08:25 pm
It’s not ridiculous, there’s something you’re not taking into account which apparently isn’t so obvious. Check your message box.
I checked but no messages.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Tyson on 22 Feb 2018, 09:02 pm
SET's don't do well with speakers that have non-flat impedance. 
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 22 Feb 2018, 09:17 pm
SET's don't do well with speakers that have non-flat impedance.

Correct. They also don't do well with speakers that have low impedances in areas where music can be quite prevalent, i.e. 100 Hz to 4khz (midbass to upper midrange), since all SET's I have seen have very high output impedances (i.e. 2-5 ohms). I feel that this is as much of a factor with the incompatibilities I have seen.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Tyson on 22 Feb 2018, 09:23 pm
Correct. They also don't do well with speakers that have low impedances in areas where music can be quite prevalent, i.e. 100 Hz to 4khz (midbass to upper midrange), since all SET's I have seen have very high output impedances (i.e. 2-5 ohms). I feel that this is as much of a factor with the incompatibilities I have seen.

Best,
Anand.

Yep, SETs do best with speakers with high/flat impedance.  Any other type of load and SETs are not going to do well.  Although SETs do better than OTLs!!  Haha :P
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: mpv on 22 Feb 2018, 09:43 pm
So you guys are mainly recommend only class D for M3 Turbo S ?
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 22 Feb 2018, 10:12 pm
I checked but no messages.

That's odd, I'll try again.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 22 Feb 2018, 10:17 pm
So you guys are mainly recommend only class D for M3 Turbo S ?

SS is a better match than SET. Class D has come a long, long way is recent years.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: glynnw on 22 Feb 2018, 10:48 pm
Before I had my Turbo S's upgraded to Triode Master, I preferred a 12 watt tube PP to a several hundred watt class D.  After upgrading, I still prefer the tubes. YMMV.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Tyson on 23 Feb 2018, 01:22 am
So you guys are mainly recommend only class D for M3 Turbo S ?

Push-pull tube amps with transfrmer output would work well as would a good solid state amp.  Class D is fine too, if you find a good sounding one.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 23 Feb 2018, 02:15 am
Push-pull tube amps with transfrmer output would work well as would a good solid state amp.

PP tube amps, unlike SS are more about voltage than current. From what I’ve read the majority of people who have tried both tubes and SS with the Spatial’s lean towards current driven amplification. Quite a few Spatial owners transitioned from tubes to the LIO and never looked back.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Tyson on 23 Feb 2018, 02:38 am
Right, the Spatials can be a difficult load, as can most full range speakers due to impedance swings.  Many people just look at sensitivity and think “high sensitivity equals tube amp friendly”.  But as you see, that’s not always the case.  PP tube amps do best, SET amps do worse and OTLs do the worst with difficult speaker loads.  SS amps will almost always be a better match for speakers that are not an easy load.  There’s a ton of good SS amps out there and a few good digital amps, all would be good choices here. 

Oh and I agree re: the LIO - that is an amazing piece of gear.  Vinnie knocked it out of the park with that one.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: mpv on 23 Feb 2018, 02:53 am
Right, the Spatials can be a difficult load, as can most full range speakers due to impedance swings.  Many people just look at sensitivity and think “high sensitivity equals tube amp friendly”.  But as you see, that’s not always the case.  PP tube amps do best, SET amps do worse and OTLs do the worst with difficult speaker loads.  SS amps will almost always be a better match for speakers that are not an easy load.  There’s a ton of good SS amps out there and a few good digital amps, all would be good choices here. 

Oh and I agree re: the LIO - that is an amazing piece of gear.  Vinnie knocked it out of the park with that one.

Now I know there is a device to help Magnepan owners.Somehow will trick the amp to see higher impedance.Don't remember the name/brand.....
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: glynnw on 23 Feb 2018, 02:56 am
Paul Speltz's "Zero-autoformer" - mine are not for sale

http://www.zeroimpedance.com/
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: mpv on 23 Feb 2018, 02:58 am
Paul Speltz's "Zero-autoformer" - mine are not for sale
Right...You think will work with my set up? Coincident 8w SET & Spatial M3 Turbo S ?
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: glynnw on 23 Feb 2018, 04:32 am
Not sure about your gear -  read his description - can match most amps correctly to most speakers.  I would try amp and speakers first - if it sounds good to you, then why worry?  You should realize I am not a perfectionist.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 23 Feb 2018, 05:08 pm
I’ve had Paul’s autoformers, no matter how you configure them all they will do is exasperate the problem.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: glynnw on 23 Feb 2018, 06:28 pm
Perhaps you meant they will exasperate you while they exacerbate the problem.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 23 Feb 2018, 06:54 pm
 :rotflmao:  :oops:  I need more covfefe.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: glynnw on 23 Feb 2018, 08:53 pm
BTW, I was using the autoformer between a tube amp wanting to see 16 ohms and the Turbo S which presents a 4 ohm load.  Without the autoformer the amp was running very hot and the importer of the amp told me not to use a 4 ohm speaker.  The autoformer used in this way didn't change the sound that I could hear, but the amp ran a lot cooler.  When he came out with the Triode Master (greatest name ever?) my problem was solved and the autoformers are in the closet, just in case I need them in the future.
Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 23 Feb 2018, 09:59 pm
Yeah, it’s worth hanging onto them because as you said, you never know if you might have a use for them again.

The problem with a SET as isn’t just low impedance, but severe swings/spikes in the impedance.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176562)

Even though the above pertains to the Triode Master, it is still useful as the plot to the M3 Turbo S would look quite similar except instead of bottoming out at 16 ohms, it bottoms out at 3 ohms. That first peak around 30 Hz at 95 ohms is followed by another peak around 1.5 KHz which literally is off the charts! At 3 kHz the impedance is still over 50 ohms. Depending on how one uses the Speltz autoformers, they will amplify those peaks by a factor of 2x, 3x, or 4x, which only makes a difficult load all the more difficult. SET amps need not apply.


Title: Re: My review of the M3 Turbo S is finally live!
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 24 Feb 2018, 01:02 am
Here is a quote from the Absolute Sound review on the Coincident Dynamo:

Quote
One of the factors that can make an amplifier shine with one speaker and stink with another is its source impedance. A typical push-pull tube amplifier’s source impedance is likely to lie in the range of one-to-two ohms, which only slightly perturbs the speaker’s frequency response. I measured a source impedance of 10.2 ohms off the Dynamo’s 8-ohm taps. The net effect was to reduce speaker response in the upper bass and lower midrange, the power range of an orchestra, where the speaker’s impedance magnitude is lowest. It didn’t sound exactly like the bottom dropped off the map, but the balance was distinctly lightweight. This was especially an issue with symphonic music, which was reproduced without a convincing orchestral foundation.

A 10.2 ohm output impedance from the 8 ohm tap! That would be a 5.1 ohm output impedance from the 4 ohm tap! Wow.

Best,
Anand.