AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Enclosures => Topic started by: gcos on 26 Mar 2012, 09:12 pm
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http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue60/tekton.htm
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$999 a pair huh? Looks kinda like that "Betsy" driver with a tweeter. Anyone like these?
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You can check out the looong threads on Audiogon about these speakers. Many preferring them to Zu speakers. But I do believe that they are using off-the-shelf pro drivers, IIRC.
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$999 a pair huh? Looks kinda like that "Betsy" driver with a tweeter. Anyone like these?
I like mine a lot. I don't go all gaga over much, but I really believe these speakers play much better than their $1,000 price tag. Very efficient which means darn near any amplifier will drive them. I have a 2A3 SET and a Manley Stingray and both sound good. Even my '79 vintage Yamaha receiver (R-2000) sounds good, I think because they are such an easy load.
btw: I've posted in the AGon thread that Rosco mentioned. I owned Zu Omens and Lores at the same time, still have the Lores.
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But I do believe that they are using off-the-shelf pro drivers, IIRC.
The tweeter is an Audax TW025A28.
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I like mine a lot. I don't go all gaga over much, but I really believe these speakers play much better than their $1,000 price tag. Very efficient which means darn near any amplifier will drive them. I have a 2A3 SET and a Manley Stingray and both sound good. Even my '79 vintage Yamaha receiver (R-2000) sounds good, I think because they are such an easy load.
btw: I've posted in the AGon thread that Rosco mentioned. I owned Zu Omens and Lores at the same time, still have the Lores.
Hey sounds pretty cool.
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You know, those Zu speakers do seem to get resold pretty often, people don't really ever hang onto them very long :scratch:
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You know, those Zu speakers do seem to get resold pretty often, people don't really ever hang onto them very long :scratch:
Most Zu owners upgrade to the next level. In my opinion you either really like them or don't. They're also a cult brand as the owner Sean is pretty bad a$$ of a person. Really good people! :thumb:
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You mean higher up in the Zu chain? I think one of the few manufacturers that has relatively affordable to through the roof.
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Most Zu owners upgrade to the next level. In my opinion you either really like them or don't. They're also a cult brand as the owner Sean is pretty bad a$$ of a person. Really good people! :thumb:
I would still have my Omens if I hadn't fallen into the Lores.
And I did have a couple of dealings with the Zu people - Yes, great folks.
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I like the review here. I'm at the very early stages of picking speakers for system 2, basically the living room system... got some GR Insignia's that will be surrounds.
I'll keep tabs on this company too, thanks for the heads up :thumb:
I already have good low efficiency speakers, wanna try high efficiency next.
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.... back again. Dang! Now I'm really interested! Been looking over Tekton's website, they have a LOT of cool stuff to choose from, nice finish options, low prices (from 600- 5000 top model), and I like how the owner has a video gallery where he gets out in front and talks about his gear. I like the 30 day trial period... that rules...
These are definitely at the top of the list of things to audition for my living room-hometheater-mains speakers.
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You know, those Zu speakers do seem to get resold pretty often, people don't really ever hang onto them very long :scratch:
I have the Omen Defs and am quite pleased with them; ymmv. Not sure which Zu speakers persons are moving off.
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I've seen a handful of guys here buy em, keep em for a little bit, then put em up for sale. Not sure what it means, if anything. Probably what JT said.
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You know, those Zu speakers do seem to get resold pretty often, people don't really ever hang onto them very long :scratch:
IMO, many speakers get bought and sold frequently. We are a crazy breed :duh:
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I have owned the Tekton Lores, the Tekton Pendragons, the Zu Essence, Zu Omen Def, and a highly upgraded Zu Omen Def. So far my favorite ( and the one I miss the most is the upgraded Zu Omen Def........)
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No I've just noticed them getting resold quickly... more than others.
Hey Morgan, mind giving a quick blurb description of all those?
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.... back again. Dang! Now I'm really interested! Been looking over Tekton's website, they have a LOT of cool stuff to choose from, nice finish options, low prices (from 600- 5000 top model), and I like how the owner has a video gallery where he gets out in front and talks about his gear. I like the 30 day trial period... that rules...
These are definitely at the top of the list of things to audition for my living room-hometheater-mains speakers.
The Part Time Audiophile liked the Pendragons and the Lore-S:
http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/03/02/best-yet-the-tekton-lore-s/
http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/01/02/part-one-introducing-the-tekton-pendragon-option-ii/
And there was a bit of a buzz last year right here on AC when the Lores were picking up:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94833.msg947465#msg947465
Lots to chew on for ya :D
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No I've just noticed them getting resold quickly... more than others.
Hey Morgan, mind giving a quick blurb description of all those?
I am the worst at describing the sounds that I hear! However, when I get a few moments I will do my best. I will say that the Tekton Lore at $999 is amazing and worthy of the great reviews it is receiving.
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Thanks guys, and looking forward to that Morgan. For some reason I've got a major woodie for this type of speaker.
Never really heard the high efficiency stuff before. So Yeah Morgan I'd love it if you took a sec and described all those, cause, wow, that's quite a list. (interested in the Pendragon too.. but why would you ever need THREE tweeters? :scratch:)
I love that they are full range too..
I think once I get my next amps, which will be able to run anything well, it might be fun to "roll speakers" and just start sampling all types.
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At $649/pair the M-Lore speakers are finally getting some press too:
http://www.stereomojo.com/TEKTON%20MLORE%20SPEAKER%20REVIEW/TektonM-loreSpeakerReview.htm
http://hometheaterreview.com/tekton-design-m-lore-loudspeaker-reviewed/
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Wow, I read both of those. Seems like incredible speakers! I really like everything I've read so far. Seems like maybe the only weakness is ultra resolution, but maybe the Lore-S takes that up. But all these reviews just make me want them badly.
Here's something interesting I came across at the bottom of that last one "Zu Audio's OMEN loudspeaker is one such speaker, though despite looking eerily similar to the M-Lore, the OMEN misses, for it costs double what the M-Lore does without providing twice the performance. Even if you customized your M-Lore to match the wood finish of the OMEN, you'd still be saving money. That, and in my opinion the M-Lore sounds a bit better. Granted, Zu Audio has a bit more "brand presence" but where it matters, sound quality, the M-Lore sounds a bit more mature, not to mention its tweeter doesn't turn violent at high volumes."
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Interesting thread. If things work out, I'll have the Tekton Lores in the same room as my Zu Souls for a few hours this weekend.
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Ah very cool. Looking forward to your impressions there. And yes, it seems like the Lore-S takes it up with an even fancier tweeter, hybrid aluminum/magnesium. I do like the sound of a metal dome. I'd like a review of that one, actually. The $999 Lore looks tempting too.
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These Tekton's remind me of the Tonian TL-D1 speakers a friend of mine has. At this price of $649 for the M-Lores, they are probably the best bargain out there. A perfect amp with the Tecktons would be the $500 TBI Millenia Class D integrated amp that can run off of batteries. That TBI amp sure made the Tonians sound incredible.
Great amp and speakers for $1150. what a deal. :thumb:
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I gotta say, swapping back and forth between the Tekton and Zu websites, the Tekton offerings are far more attractive. Tekton has got more than a handful of varied product available between $400 and $2500, with quite a few models between 1K and 2K, and at Zu, you've got a much more limited selection, and much higher prices. Pendragon, $2500. Similar Zu, 12K :o
I gotta think the real deal is gonna be the Tektons.
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Pendragon, $2500. Similar Zu, 12K :o
Are you comparing the Pendragon to the Zu Definition? If so, the Definition has built-in, active subwoofers.
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Ah, did not know that. Pretty awesome then.
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I wonder how much it would cost someone to build their own. Nothing too complicated about them, not even a crossover (low pass) on the woofer according to the review.
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Are you comparing the Pendragon to the Zu Definition? If so, the Definition has built-in, active subwoofers.
The Dragons play outrageously loud. They have a live impact. No SW required.
Check out the reviews at www.parttimeaudiophile.com He did extensive listening.
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I wonder how much it would cost someone to build their own. Nothing too complicated about them, not even a crossover (low pass) on the woofer according to the review.
Nope, there is a lot of experience behind the design. Eric knows what he is doing.
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The Dragons play outrageously loud. They have a live impact. No SW required.
The reviews on these other Tekton speakers say the same. They all agree that the bass is excellent, with a live punchy feel and a lack of strain and distortion at high volume.
I like the fact that they kind of do the opposite thing you usually see, which is to have a tweeter crossed really low. Here the driver carries most of the weight, and the tweeter takes about 5K on up. One review said this gives it near ribbon like character (the tweeter).
The drivers are cousins of bass guitar divers and I actually find that exciting. I've often wanted to hear a driver made to drive a electric guitar.
I'd love to have a speaker like this that has perhaps a real strength for rock music. I think they'd look great in the offered satin apple white.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W5bvXgvyGVU#!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm6jHGQEmog&feature=relmfu
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On that second link: Ya gotta love the story of the Lore and Mr. Alexander's experience and knowledge that went into it:
Very cool that he gets in there and explains his speaker really well.
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These Tekton's remind me of the Tonian TL-D1 speakers a friend of mine has. At this price of $649 for the M-Lores, they are probably the best bargain out there. A perfect amp with the Tecktons would be the $500 TBI Millenia Class D integrated amp that can run off of batteries. That TBI amp sure made the Tonians sound incredible.
Great amp and speakers for $1150. what a deal. :thumb:
Thanks for the heads up. :thumb: (Have looked at that amp and wondered...)
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The Lore/etc. designs remind me of classic extended range drivers from ~75 years ago (no I'm not quite that old). With the tiny tube amps available back then efficiency was paramount, so the recipe was either big horns or single 8 - 12 inch drivers that could reach 80 - 8,000 Hz.
Add a tweeter with cap to protect it and modern materials that allow bass to extend down an extra octave and you have Tekton. The modern alternative to extended range design uses a powered sub with a small (~ 4 inch driver).
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In one of the reviews there is an interview and he said he actually prefers to mate his speakers (98dB efficiency on the Lore, I believe) with very high wattage amps.
I'm thinking a pair of these with some Ncores could be really neat. You then have a speaker that barely uses any power down in the unmeasurably low distortion range of those amps and 199 more watts of headroom above that.
I bet that would come out to equal some sort of religious experience.
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The challenges with coupling high efficiency with high power:
1. Useful range of volume control
2. Any system self-noise is easily revealed
3. Hard/expensive to find really big tube amps that sound best at lower power ratings (where most would listen) yet solid state sound best closer to their maximum power rating.
Just keep in mind that power to dB is a logarithmic relationship, so 10 times the wattage only sounds twice as loud. This combo should help cover any musical peaks, but like most things in life the last "nth" is the most expensive/hardest.
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@ 3: doesn't seem to be the case with these amps, based on reports. So far people are saying they don't impart any sonic difference or quality of sound difference at any volume level. For 2, I'm planning on balanced connections top to bottom, and getting a balanced power transformer on there. For 1, my Warpspeed passive seems to provide a good deal of range between top to bottom, maybe it can work, or if I buy a fully balanced version, I can have Alan build it with the consideration of contolling such a system.
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delete
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Check out the reviews at theparttimeaudiophile site. He did extensive listening
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The challenges with coupling high efficiency with high power:
1. Useful range of volume control
2. Any system self-noise is easily revealed
3. Hard/expensive to find really big tube amps that sound best at lower power ratings (where most would listen) yet solid state sound best closer to their maximum power rating.
Just keep in mind that power to dB is a logarithmic relationship, so 10 times the wattage only sounds twice as loud. This combo should help cover any musical peaks, but like most things in life the last "nth" is the most expensive/hardest.
I run my Lores with an Odyssey Khartago Extreme, which I think is 110w per channel--not the highest powered amp out there, but no SET.
Regarding point #1, I can only turn the volume knob to about 11 o'clock before it becomes uncomfortably loud, but the trade off is that nothing is lost at lower volumes, which is great for listening after the kid goes to sleep.
Regarding #2, with no music playing, my system is dead silent, even with my ear right up to the driver. I have a Decware CSP2+ tube preamp on order, so we'll see if this holds true when I add tubes to the chain (fingers crossed).
The Lores and Khartago sound incredible together, by the way. I think the Positive Feedback review mentioned how well the Lores image, and I've definitely found this to be true. In fact, when my friend heard them for the first time, she kept asking where the center speaker was.
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System matching from the Part time audiophile:
System matching
So, here’s the bottom line.
The Red Wine Audio Signature 15 has no business being as good an amp as it is. It is, by far, the quietest amp I’ve ever had the pleasure to use or listen to. It’s creepy-quiet. If matched to the right speakers, you’re going to be blown away. Wait, that’s a crappy cliche. Say, rather, that you’re going to be so amazed that your next waking thought may well find you naked, grinning, and dashing through the streets of your neighborhood while hooting like an owl. $1,500, for this level of sound, is unbelievable. The fact that this is all Made In The USA? Inconceivable. There’s no way this can last.
The Tekton Lore S is a $1,400 wunderkind, cut from the same over-achieving-on-a-shoestring-budget cloth as the Red Wine amp. I can only begin to capture how good this match up is by saying that these two pieces of gear really ought to be sold as a kit. I mean, really. It’s like they were voiced together, and then sent off like a tragically shattered family only to be brought back together in front of a live TV audience, with you as Oprah (you wish!). The joy with which they seem to play together … priceless.
Don’t forget the cables. At $127 per 1m pair for interconnects and $217 per 1.5m pair for speaker cables, I can’t think of a better way to hook the Red Wine to the Tekton. These cables are a natural fit as they play off the strengths of both while introducing no weaknesses. And yes, the system sounded best with these cables, and different without them. Get ‘em.
Win, win, and win.
Sadly, I don’t have a source component at this price point that I’m nearly as nuts about, or I’d have a Grand Slam here. Have to stay tuned on that score, I guess.
So, that’s it. Is the Red Wine Audio Signature 15 amplifier for everyone, everywhere, all the time? Probably not. But if you’re careful with your synergy and speaker-matching, I dare you to do better — and if you can, buy that whatever-it-is, too!
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The Lore-S: http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/03/02/best-yet-the-tekton-lore-s/
Pendragon: 1) http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/01/02/part-one-introducing-the-tekton-pendragon-option-ii/
2) http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/01/25/part-ii-digging-in-to-the-tekton-pendragon/
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I wonder how much it would cost someone to build their own. Nothing too complicated about them, not even a crossover (low pass) on the woofer according to the review.
I agree. It would not be hard to DIY, provided you know how to build and tune the box for the woofer. The drivers are off the shelf and the XO is a tweeter cap in the range of 1 to 2uf. There might be a pad resistor too but not likely since the tweeter sensitivity is pretty close to the woofer.
I'm a Zu owner, so consider the bias. Probably the biggest difference between the Lore and the Zu designs is that the Lore uses an off the shelf Eminence driver. Zu probably started with the same driver but has been refining and voicing it for this application for the last 10 years. I never liked the earlier Zu's, but the latest generation of driver sounds much more refined in the upper midrange. This makes all the difference in the world with this design approach. If the presence region in a broadband driver is too buzzy, ratty and shouty, I can't listen to it.
I hope to have the Lores side by side with my Zu Souls for a few hours this weekend. I'm curious to hear the difference between the stock Eminence driver and the Zu driver.
Russ
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I await your report. :wink:
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.... back again. Dang! Now I'm really interested! Been looking over Tekton's website, they have a LOT of cool stuff to choose from, nice finish options, low prices (from 600- 5000 top model), and I like how the owner has a video gallery where he gets out in front and talks about his gear. I like the 30 day trial period... that rules...
These are definitely at the top of the list of things to audition for my living room-hometheater-mains speakers.
Wait till you actually talk with Eric. Top notch guy! Very approachable and engaging. I really like that guy.
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Nope, there is a lot of experience behind the design. Eric knows what he is doing.
True, he's done all the work, one would only need to copy it. They give you the dimensions of the enclosure and plenty of other relevant data too. It's not a terribly sophisticated loudspeaker.
KISS Keep It Simple. . .
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I agree. It would not be hard to DIY, provided you know how to build and tune the box for the woofer. The drivers are off the shelf and the XO is a tweeter cap in the range of 1 to 2uf. There might be a pad resistor too but not likely since the tweeter sensitivity is pretty close to the woofer.
I'm a Zu owner, so consider the bias. Probably the biggest difference between the Lore and the Zu designs is that the Lore uses an off the shelf Eminence driver. Zu probably started with the same driver but has been refining and voicing it for this application for the last 10 years. I never liked the earlier Zu's, but the latest generation of driver sounds much more refined in the upper midrange. This makes all the difference in the world with this design approach. If the presence region in a broadband driver is too buzzy, ratty and shouty, I can't listen to it.
I hope to have the Lores side by side with my Zu Souls for a few hours this weekend. I'm curious to hear the difference between the stock Eminence driver and the Zu driver.
Russ
I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the two
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If I'm not mistaken the driver isn't stock, it's custom made to his specs.
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True, he's done all the work, one would only need to copy it. They give you the dimensions of the enclosure and plenty of other relevant data too. It's not a terribly sophisticated loudspeaker.
KISS Keep It Simple. . .
IIRC, I think he told me that there are some non obvious tricks involved. The driver inversion for example is counter intuitive and only superior design overcomes the supposed disadvantage.
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What do you guys know about the other designs there, the Katzmeow, the OB65, the Uruz, etc
http://tektondesign.com/products.html
He's got a lotta stuff there...
And again, pretty sure I've read those drivers in the Lore are not straight off the shelf.
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Probably the biggest difference between the Lore and the Zu designs is that the Lore uses an off the shelf Eminence driver. Russ
I'd say the biggest difference between Lores and Omens (and most or all Zu) is that the Omens are bottom ported with the "ZuRG network" (I thinkI got that right). When I had my Omens, it was a bitch to get them set up right: Not only position but height from floor to bottom of the speaker which is the bottom port. Carpet? Boards? Spikes? Tilt? etc. etc.
The Lores are much easier to place.
That, and I thought the Omen cabinet was not as stiff as the Lore cabinet.
Both manufacturers claim magic in what they do to the off the shelf driver, but even after they change I don't think there is THAT much difference between the two.
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Double post??
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Can't blame it on the computer this time...
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IIRC, I think he told me that there are some non obvious tricks involved. The driver inversion for example is counter intuitive and only superior design overcomes the supposed disadvantage.
No trickery involved, only utilization of well established laws of physics, acoustics.
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If I'm not mistaken the driver isn't stock, it's custom made to his specs.
Which usually means that someone negotiated a quantity run from the manufacturer, their own personal batch. Custom doesn't always mean better, sometimes it actually means cheaper. A pinch here and a pinch there to save some money and maximize profits. Custom could be as simple as an ink stamp that says "Custom Made for. . . by. . . "
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Hey Sebrof how do you like that hi efficiency sound compared to the avg low efficiency types? Differences?
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No trickery involved, only utilization of well established laws of physics, acoustics.
I really meant what you said..ie "tricks". I should have put the quotes in. I meant intelligent, experienced/application.
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i would really like to hear the "s" wersion of the lore's, or even an "s" wersion of the pendragons. my experience w/the eminence-based drivers (in zu speakers) is that they are pleasant enough, but simply do not offer me enough detail for a speaker i'd wanna use in my main system.
i have these:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=1203)
doug s.
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my experience w/the eminence-based drivers (in zu speakers) is that they are pleasant enough, but simply do not offer me enough detail for a speaker i'd wanna use in my main system.
I agree that resolution is one area of compromise with this type of speaker. While the level of resolution is quite good, it doesn't have the resolution that I hear on my friends' Vandersteen, Marten, Dali, Dunleavy, etc, etc. speakers.
But for me, Zu's (at least the ones I have) are better than those other speakers in the areas of dynamics and phase coherence. Zu's are so visceral they make other speakers sound kinda boring. I mix live sound on a regular basis and have for over 20 years. The Zu's recreate that live music experience by pressurizing the body as well as the ear. And the way they unravel spatial information and phase cues in the music is down-right spooky. With some stereo recordings I hear a 180 degree sound stage that stretches from wall to wall. It's an addicting sound that really resonates with my "inner sense" of what music should sound like.
I'll be the first to admit that it's a different sound than what many audiophiles are used to. Some like it, others not so much.
Russ
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I agree that resolution is one area of compromise with this type of speaker. While the level of resolution is quite good, it doesn't have the resolution that I hear on my friends' Vandersteen, Marten, Dali, Dunleavy, etc, etc. speakers.
But for me, Zu's (at least the ones I have) are better than those other speakers in the areas of dynamics and phase coherence. Zu's are so visceral they make other speakers sound kinda boring. I mix live sound on a regular basis and have for over 20 years. The Zu's recreate that live music experience by pressurizing the body as well as the ear. And the way they unravel spatial information and phase cues in the music is down-right spooky. With some stereo recordings I hear a 180 degree sound stage that stretches from wall to wall. It's an addicting sound that really resonates with my "inner sense" of what music should sound like.
I'll be the first to admit that it's a different sound than what many audiophiles are used to. Some like it, others not so much.
Russ
i definitely like the coherency and dynamics offered w/highly efficient wide range drivers. but, i want it all, and i refuse to give up the resolution. these, (among others) seem to do the trick:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13741)
perhaps the tekton speakers w/o the eminence-based drivers, (like the lore "s"), may also offer the resolution, while still retaining the dynamics and coherency.
doug s.
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I think the descriptions are of adequate resolution, made up for with awesome everything else. But... Ya gotta wonder about the Katzmeow and the Uruz with their separate, top mounted dome and ribbon tweeter respectively. Those two might be the best of the bunch. Never heard such a configuration.
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I think the descriptions are of adequate resolution, made up for with awesome everything else. But... Ya gotta wonder about the Katzmeow and the Uruz with their separate, top mounted dome and ribbon tweeter respectively. Those two might be the best of the bunch. Never heard such a configuration.
nope, it is the big driver i am concerned about, not the tweeters. which is why i'd be interested in hearing the lore "s", or a similar "s" wersion of the pendragon. katzmeow might also be a contender, as it has the woofer used in the lore "s".
doug s.
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Oh it does.... Huh...
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i definitely like the coherency and dynamics offered w/highly efficient wide range drivers. but, i want it all, and i refuse to give up the resolution. these, (among others) seem to do the trick:
Yup, that would do it. Wanna trade? :D
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Yeah Doug a Pendragon S might be pretty ultimate.
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Yup, that would do it. Wanna trade? :D
:lol:
you need to upgrade the pics in your gallery, and your system description, if you are using superfly's now. :wink:
and, fwiw, patience and careful shopping can get you something like i have. while bi-amping is required, (tri-amping if you want subs), i got the speakers themselves for a bit less than 2/3rd's the retail price of superfly's... 8)
doug s.
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you need to upgrade the pics in your gallery, and your system description, if you are using superfly's now.
Good call. Hasn't been updated in about eight years. :duh:
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Can someone please explain the application of the Pendragon's 3 tweeters? Because it's a format you never ever see.
Why not just a really supreme tweeter instead of three of those? Is it just being different for different's sake?
Because I like them, and I understand the bass is like a true full range speaker, but in resolution the Lore-S is better, according to that review, and kind of the point of the Pendragon is to be heard three blocks over.
I'm thinking I'll throw my Virtue on whatever I get next and it goes in the living room after I first buy new amps for my main rig, the maggies. And I want it to be a nice speaker. Can't do Magnepans again because they really love to be out in the room and I don't like to put speakers where they would be unhappy. That and I want to see the screen. And I want to try something different.
So, from the Tekton range I like the Lore, the Lore-S, Katzmeow (what a goofy name), Pendragon, and Uruz. I'm going to consider a lot of options but these also look really interesting. Not sure if I should be excited about the OB5.
But I like the product range and I'd like to see more professional reviews. I'd also like to see Tekton's site be a little less vague, better descriptions, and maybe some performance graphs could be nice. Again, it's that return policy that gives me a lot of confidence as probably this among the first speakers I'll try if I don't go diy. But anyway, I think somone's going to post some reviews here on these.
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The extra tweeters increase output to match the woofers.
Performance graphs are next to useless unless they are run in your room. You really have to listen to speakers, which is why the home trial is so inviting.
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They're all running the same freqs huh? So those things are just meant to get stupid loud in a big space. Well I can cross those off.
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They're all running the same freqs huh? So those things are just meant to get stupid loud in a big space. Well I can cross those off.
having more drivers will also mean less distortion at any given spl. and depending on design you may (or may not) have better soundstaging.
doug s.
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I think the descriptions are of adequate resolution, made up for with awesome everything else. But... Ya gotta wonder about the Katzmeow and the Uruz with their separate, top mounted dome and ribbon tweeter respectively. Those two might be the best of the bunch. Never heard such a configuration.
Nah, for me it would be the OB Sigmas. They have the to die for soundstage, according to Eric.
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nope, it is the big driver i am concerned about, not the tweeters. which is why i'd be interested in hearing the lore "s", or a similar "s" wersion of the pendragon. katzmeow might also be a contender, as it has the woofer used in the lore "s".
doug s.
Parttimeaudiophile reviewed the Lore-S
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Can someone please explain the application of the Pendragon's 3 tweeters? Because it's a format you never ever see.
Why not just a really supreme tweeter instead of three of those? Is it just being different for different's sake?
Because I like them, and I understand the bass is like a true full range speaker, but in resolution the Lore-S is better, according to that review, and kind of the point of the Pendragon is to be heard three blocks over.
I'm thinking I'll throw my Virtue on whatever I get next and it goes in the living room after I first buy new amps for my main rig, the maggies. And I want it to be a nice speaker. Can't do Magnepans again because they really love to be out in the room and I don't like to put speakers where they would be unhappy. That and I want to see the screen. And I want to try something different.
So, from the Tekton range I like the Lore, the Lore-S, Katzmeow (what a goofy name), Pendragon, and Uruz. I'm going to consider a lot of options but these also look really interesting. Not sure if I should be excited about the OB5.
But I like the product range and I'd like to see more professional reviews. I'd also like to see Tekton's site be a little less vague, better descriptions, and maybe some performance graphs could be nice. Again, it's that return policy that gives me a lot of confidence as probably this among the first speakers I'll try if I don't go diy. But anyway, I think somone's going to post some reviews here on these.
Pick up the phone and give Eric a call. He will explain it all in detail. All his design choices are for a reason.
It is not so easy to get reviews, but am happy that I had a part in getting the Mojo one done. Hopefully they follow up with the Pendragon.
I have never even herd a Tekton, but having spoken with eric and a few owners/users (GPowered and PTA) I am convinced they are the BeezNeez or the KatzMeow. LoL
Best value out there. Ridiculous, really.
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Anyone know about the Tekton ORIELten?
Limited production: 500
Specsifications: 2-way (no whizzer), same cabinet dimensions as the Lore, 98 dB/w/m, 30 - 25,000 Hz, $850
Manufacturer's quote: "stupid good for the money"
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Doug that does sound good, but in the Lore S review it's compared to the Pendragon as better sounding. I too might be interested as well in a Pendragon S if he keeps in line with the pricing. 3K would be pushing it. Probably most interested in the Lore S and Katzmeow.
I'm a ways out from next major speaker so I'll sit tight for a bit before I call him.
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nope, it is the big driver i am concerned about, not the tweeters. which is why i'd be interested in hearing the lore "s", or a similar "s" wersion of the pendragon. katzmeow might also be a contender, as it has the woofer used in the lore "s".
doug s.
Parttimeaudiophile reviewed the Lore-S
i know, i read it; that is why i said:
"...i'd be interested in hearing the lore "s", or a similar "s" wersion of the pendragon. katzmeow might also be a contender, as it has the woofer used in the lore "s"." :wink:
doug s.
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I agree with Doug. I use a B&C DMX 50 coaxial compression driver into an Acoustic Horn Company AH!300 cherry wood conical horn. The frequency response is very flat and, of course, very dynamic from 450 hz. through 14 kHz. Below 450 hz. I use an old JBL L-200 cabinet without any JBL components. I replaced the original LE 15B with an RCF L15P530 woofer. While I haven't measured the response of my woofer, I feel I can claim 40 hz. or better.
The crossover network was custom designed for me by Bill Woods of Acoustic Horn Company. All in all I have about as good a speaker as money can buy within the frequency description I told you about, and my total investment remains under $5K.
I know nothing about Tekton at all but I have pretty good experience with Zu. I've been to their factory where I bought my Druid MK4 speakers. Then I added a Mini-Method sub. These I sold to BBQ Bob my former neighbor. He's a former bluesman turned jazz guitarist. His real name is Don DeBacker and he's so in love with these speakers that I could never pry them from his hands. I moved up to Definition Pros which I sold here on AC in what was probably the most epic sale thread ever. From there I intended to move to the then new Def 2. Sean convinced me that, for my room, his new Presence speaker would suit me better. So I bought the Presence. But I didn't keep them. Something, and I'm not sure what, turned me toward Acoustic Horn and Bill directed me from there. When I told Sean about my intention to go to horns he told me that he started as a teen tearing down Klipsch, JBL and Altec horn systems and modifying them. The reason Zus are as dynamic as they are, the reason for their imaging and presence all can be traced back to Sean and Adam's successful attempts to bring a taste of horn superiority to bear in a more conventional cone driver system. Their main reason for doing this was overcoming size and expense issues inherent in actual horn setups.
I'm telling you all of this because Doug and I have discovered that you don't need to lay out 5 figures of hard earned cash to move into the uppermost realm of sound reproduction. I'm not a DIY person at all but I was able to see my way because of simple logic and enough experience to know who to believe. You can do that too. Prices are up a bit but I think you could still copy my speaker rig for well under $6000.
And don't let my truncated bandwidth bother you. There isn't much real music below 40 hz. and, if you're over 50 you won't be missing anything over 12 kHz.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=17088)
My speakers are a virtual duplicate, performance wise, to the Oswald's Mill system many of you heard at RMAF about 3 years ago. My horns are the same one's used in Cogent Technology's incredible all horn rig which Chris Brady of Teres Turntable bought to replace his Edgarhorn system. This stuff is well beyond the boxes typically discussed by reviewers. Check it out.
The only thing I want to change is the size of my space. My room, at 15 x 22 is more than adequate but less than optimum.
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Yeah Doug a Pendragon S might be pretty ultimate.
Yeah, this would be pretty awesome. My understanding is that there will be something coming. Whether it's a Pendragon S or something a bit more grand, Eric apparently has some seriously interesting stuff coming down the line.
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Yeah, this would be pretty awesome. My understanding is that there will be something coming. Whether it's a Pendragon S or something a bit more grand, Eric apparently has some seriously interesting stuff coming down the line.
wouldn't surprise me - tekton seems to come out w/new product frequently...
doug s.
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Hey guys between the Lore S and the Katzmeow would you say the separate tweeter automatically wins?
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macro, we are pretty-much on the same page, re: not needing to break the bank to get good sound. (and the need for a big space to optimize your system. i long to return to my prior ~26x38 room - it was freaking awesome!)
but, (as is to be expected?), i would do your system a bit different. i would likely choose radian compression drivers, because i do like having a higher frequency response - it prowides a bit more air, imo, even tho our hearing definitely ain't what it used to be at our age. i'd likely swap out your b&c dcx50's, (not dmx's, btw), cuz even tho they're flat out to 16khz, (not 14khz), the radians go to 20khz. (and they can still be crossed to woofers at 500hz if you use 24db/octave slopes.) you may wanna check them out; they are getting a lot of good rewiews.
and, while you may be happy w/bass down to 40hz, i can't be happy w/o subwoofers and flat in-room response to <20hz. it adds a lot to music that you might not realize, except if you have experienced it. and, some music i listen to has prodigious low frequency information.
as this all relates to tekton, i think they're on the right track, but i simply like more detail than is offered by the zu/tekton style eminence driver based systems. (perhaps zu's top models, w/their specially nano-treated cones, offer more detail, but we're talking silly money now...)
doug s.
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Hey guys between the Lore S and the Katzmeow would you say the separate tweeter automatically wins?
well, if i had to guess, based on the specs and the cabinetry, i would guess the $100 more expensive katzmeow would be slightly more refined, and the lore s would have slightly better low end bass response... as i would be using subs, i would lean towards the katzmeow. (and shipping may be slightly cheaper, as the speakers weigh a bit less and the cabinets are a bit smaller.) but i would still wanna hear them before considering a purchase. or i would only buy a used pair, so i could re-sell w/o taking as much of a financial hit. but, i am cheap - ask macrojack! :lol:
doug s.
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another thing that impresses me w/the tekton's. if you were wanting to build a clone of the lore s, yust the cost of the drivers alone would run you $612 + shipping, if purchased from madisound. then, you have to buy parts for and assemble the crossover, cabinet, binding posts, wires, etc. pretty impressive that a speaker that retails for $1400 has drivers that cost >$600.
doug s.
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Yeah he seems to have the business aspect knocked.. Definitely has my attention. Since it's a full time job for him I doubt he'd ever post here but it would be cool.
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Doug S said, "and, while you may be happy w/bass down to 40hz, i can't be happy w/o subwoofers and flat in-room response to <20hz. it adds a lot to music that you might not realize, except if you have experienced it."
and... "I think they're on the right track, but i simply like more detail than is offered by the zu/tekton style eminence driver"
Agreed, agreed, and agreed.
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Doug - Sorry for my inaccuracies. I wrote that info using a bad resource (my memory). I'm nearing 65 years old and have been assured that planning for the future needn't include better frequency response. Even if I wanted to experiment with a different driver, I could never justify the expense. The throat of my horns is cast aluminum and is machined to fit the driver you intend to use. A change there would require pretty big outlay. Then there's the fact that my custom crossover is designed for the driver I'm using. At this point in my life, it seems that being happy with what I have is far more practical than looking for things to be unhappy about. Same goes for bass extension. I just don't feel the need to open that can of worms. I've had a lot of speakers that will go lower and I've run the course with subs. Maybe my estimate about lower reach was as truncated as you've shown my upper end estimate to be. All I need comes from a 15 inch professional woofer in a 5 cubic foot ported box. Can anyone here estimate what sort of bass that actually reproduces? Where does it roll off?
I have a decibel meter app in my iPhone. Would that provide an accurate measurement using the Stereophile Test CD?
This is a Tekton thread and it was never my intention to divert it. I was really just reinforcing Doug's contention that there are other ways to skin this cat without a second mortgage or strict adherence to the basic box with good reviews scenario. We've seen that run up quite a hefty tab for unexceptional results. Real high quality horn designs (waveguides) can do everything as well as any other design with a scale, ease, coherence and dynamism that no other design matches on all counts. A lot of members have found that out using Gedlee.
Getting them accepted by the wife is another story though.
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damn, macro, w/almost 10 years on me, you make me feel like a kid! :lol: i wasn't trying to nit-pic your comments; i simply felt that correction would be in order for anyone considering going down the road you went. and yes, if you would have to re-machine new throats and build new x-overs for radian compression drivers, i could certainly understand wanting to leave well-enough alone.
there are definitely many ways to get great speakers w/o breaking the bank. seems to me tekton is on the right track w/that... more companies should consider selling their speakers at not much more than twice the price of the drivers. :wink: tho i can understand that, for some speaker cabinetry, this is not possible. that's ok, imo, if the cabinetry serves a performance purpose, and is not done simply for eye candy.
doug s.
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I had a chance to hear the Tekton Lores this weekend. Steve Lefkowicz who wrote the Positive Feedback review brought them over on Saturday and we had a chance to do an extended comparison between the Lores and my Zu Souls.
First let me describe my Zu Souls. I bought the Souls for $1,000 last year when Zu cleared them out after discontinuing the model. Compared to the rest of the Zu line, the Soul has Omen drivers/parts in a Superfly cabinet. I initially changed the tweeter cap from the stock 1uf Erse to a 1uf Jantzen Supreme Z. This smoothed out and opened up the top end of the speaker. While the Jantzen isn’t as buttery smooth and extended as the Mundorf cap used in the Superfly, it’s pretty darn close for ¼th the price.
Last fall I heard a pair of Fostex bullet tweeters in a friend’s system and was blown away at how clean, extended, and resolute they sounded. They were simply the best tweeters I had ever heard. I picked up a pair of Fostex T90A tweeters (around $400 pr. from Madisound) to try with my Zus. I ended up removing the stock tweeters and mating the Zu full range driver directly to the T90A’s sitting on top of the cabinet. The stock Soul tweeter is good but the Fostex is way better (as it should be for 6X the price). Sean @ Zu told me he loves the Fostex tweeter but can’t get enough units from Fostex to use it in any production speakers.
Anyway, we listened to the Zu’s for a while then switched to the Lores. The cabinet on the Lores is very utilitarian. It is well built MDF and the paint finish is smooth and clean but cabinet seams at the edges hadn’t been filled and smoothed to where they were unnoticeable. This is part of the value proposition. In order to sell a $1,000 speaker with $400 worth of drivers, cabinet finish labor is minimized. There is nothing wrong with that as long as the customer understands the compromise.
The Souls and Lores share a lot of positive characteristics. They are both very dynamic, producing a sound that pressurizes the body as well as the ear, even at lower levels. They are both phase coherent. Spatial cues in the mix are precisely decoded and spread out over a deep, wide soundstage. You’d be surprised at how many high priced, high end speakers garble and collapse this phase information into a small constricted soundstage. The midrange, where the meat of the music is, sounded very fleshed out and lively. Not surprising, since they use similar broadband drivers.
Where the speakers differed was in the bass, treble, and soundstaging. Both speakers delivered exceptional bass slam and extension down to around 40hz in my room. The Zus had a smoother room rolloff, while the Lores had a bit of a bass-reflex bump around 50 to 60 hz. Keep in mind that room characteristics and amplifier damping have a huge influence on this.
Treble response was very different between the speakers. The Lores use the very efficient Audax Gold tweeter. The sound was very lively and detailed in the mid-treble band (8-10khz). This is the splash and sizzle range that can get edgy and fatiguing when not done right. Most metal domes drive me crazy but these didn’t. We listened to Lores for well over two hours and the speakers didn’t irritate or fatigue me at all. That’s a very high complement coming from me. We were listening to a push-pull 6550 based tube amp so I don’t know how the treble’s character will sound with other amp topologies.
The Zu/Fostex was different in that there was less energy in the splash and sizzle region and not as much perceived detail. The information was there, just not as prominent. I tuned the combination this way on purpose because I’m not a detail freak and I’m very sensitive to clangy, edgy recordings. The Fostex had better treble extension and delicately defined attack and decay. This produced a big, open, airy, precisely defined soundstage that filled the room front to back, wall to wall, floor to ceiling. The soundstage on the Lores was still very good due to its phase coherence, but sounded closed in by comparison. Image height stayed about eye level and stage width didn’t extend much beyond the speakers. I’m not dissing the Lores. Its soundstage was very good, especially at this price point. The Lores just couldn’t match the magical capabilities of those Fostex tweeters.
Steve and I popped the woofer out of one of the Lores to see the crossover, which looks like a simple 2nd order two way topology. Based on the values of the tweeter caps, I’m guessing the crossover frequency is somewhere between 6 and 8khz. This points to a design difference between the Zus and the Lores. While Zu custom builds their driver to run it wide open with no crossover, the Lore uses a stock Eminence driver and crosses it over like most two-way speakers. Steve did confirm that the Lore uses off-the shelf stock drivers. There’s nothing wrong with that, especially given the quality of the drivers for this price point.
I’ll conclude by saying the Lores have no business sounding as good as they do for $1,000 pr. I suppose you could DIY something like this, but since the value proposition is so high, why would you? If I didn’t have what I have, I would buy these in a heartbeat, but would pay the extra $$ for a more refined finish. I’m pretty damn impressed.
Russ
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russ, i am curious what the results woulda been if you ran the fostex tweets w/the lore full-ranger...
doug s.
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It's hard to say. The results could land anywhere between terrific and train wreck.
The fact that Tekton is using a crossover to low-pass the driver leads me to believe that the stock Eminence has some spiky, shouty artifacts up top that need to be smoothed out one way or another.
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How are you doing that with the Zu's? Active crossover?
Nice to see the regular Lore stacks up.
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The Zu driver runs wide open with no crossover. They get the cones, baskets, motors, etc from Eminence and custom build the drivers to get the performance curve they're looking for.
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Russ, nicely done.
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Maybe I didn't see how you made this work, is the Fostex running full range too? No crossover there?
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Maybe I didn't see how you made this work, is the Fostex running full range too? No crossover there?
The Fostex tweeters definitely need a crossover. Without one they would get instantly vaporized by a full range signal like most other tweeters. I use a 1.2uf capacitor and a 15 watt L-pad (to set output level) and wire it out of phase with the Zu driver. The Zu driver is running wide open with no crossover on it.
russ, i am curious what the results woulda been if you ran the fostex tweets w/the lore full-ranger...
I'll bet the Fostex tweeters would sound great with the Tekton models using Fostex full range drivers. They were designed to work together.
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How did you come to decide on that configuration for the tweeter?
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How did you come to decide on that configuration for the tweeter?
I put it together based on the T90A data sheet. I listened to different cap values and 1.2uf gives me the best balance for my ears.
Russ
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Interesting. So the cap is what limits low frequencies? Why wire out of phase like that?
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Why wire out of phase like that?
The cap introduces phase shift. Wiring out of phase partially compensates for that.
At this point we're getting into speaker crossover design stuff, a subject I have only a rudimentary understanding of. Here's a link (one of many) to give you a quick primer on the subject. Good stuff to know if you're really into speakers.
http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Tutorial/Crossover/ (http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Tutorial/Crossover/)
Russ
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Ok gotcha....
Nice to know these types of speakers can be tinkered with (that said, the $649 M-Lore might be the one you really want!).
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They're all running the same freqs huh? So those things are just meant to get stupid loud in a big space. Well I can cross those off.
Not necessarily. I am running my Pendragons with a Don Allen 45 tube amp. And at 2 watts the tone, timbre, imaging, and soundstage is amazing. 2 watts gives me 75-80dB in my room.
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Interesting... There's another guy here with the Pendragon. I think they might be a perfect option for HT and general listening.
Seems like they'd be excellent with a pair of NCORES.
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Ha! Good one Rc. Please, for Pete's sake, let's stay out of the Ncore wars. It's been awhile since I've seen such bloodletting on AC. BTW I have some coming from a tour to my house next week, I wonder if they'll have blood stains on them? :roll:
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The reason I said that is because you have these big burly full rangers with very high efficiency. Perfect match.
You can't say Ncore now without getting kicked in the teeth, but I'm sure all that will die down. It has to.
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The reason I said that is because you have these big burly full rangers with very high efficiency. Perfect match.
You can't say Ncore now without getting kicked in the teeth, but I'm sure all that will die down. It has to.
Aren't the ncores 200 watts per side? I'm not sure. That would be a lot of power waste for a speaker like the Tekton, which is designed for high efficiency. Nothing says you couldn't do it though. For a speaker like this I might try a tripath amp or a little tube amp.
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no clipping ever and never any distortion at any level is why it seems like a good combo.
seems like an ultimate setup when you've got the efficiency and also full range.
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I agree with Fred to a point. Yes, the first few watts will be the most important with any high efficiency speaker, and traditionally this has been best handled by flea watt triode tubes and class A solid state that have either very low switching distortion, and/or benign distortion characteristics. However that doesn't mean the Ncore amps, or any chip amp, does or doesn't fit into these categories. In other words, the maximum power rating may be irrelevant with Tektons, how an amp sounds at low power output will be relevant.
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In other words, the maximum power rating may be irrelevant with Tektons, how an amp sounds at low power output will be relevant.
+1 very well said.
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Yeah, that's why I think it would work well, because everything so far shows the core to have phenomenal performance at low level. Bruno said something interesting about this, he says that the makers who claim really good low watt performance, and nothing else, are really just saying the amp sucks after a few watts, not that their 1 watt is gold.
So... I'll take unmeasurable distortion and no sound or color for 500 Bob. I am definitely intrigued by those amps with high efficiency speakers. High power for true dynamics.
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Rclark,
See the honorable Nelson Pass on the subject of the importance of the first watt or so. There is a reason he has a company called FirstWatt. His papers on the FirstWatt website are massively informative. The man is a solid state Class A master.
It may be that the ncores share the characteristics at the first watt that make the FirstWatt amps so successful with appropriate speakers. Or maybe not.
I will be trying the ncores with some Hornshoppe Horns when they stop here on the tour, and will report back on how they compare with my fleawatt tube amps (a MiniWatt N3 and a Decware EL-84 SET).
And after this weekend, I can now say that I have heard ncores, and I can now say from experience that they sound great.
But with speakers like the Lores? Not sure that they will necessarily work great. I was very excited to get an Aleph 30, but found that its damping factor was too high for my single-driver speakers. The bass was overdamped and the bass extension suffered (see some of the Nelson Pass articles on FirstWatt and maybe the 6moons reviews of the F1 and F2 for discussion of this issue of damping and single-driver designs). Based on my experience with the high damping factor Aleph 30, the damping factor of the ncore is a concern with a speaker like the Lore.
Matching speakers with amps is more than just giving a speaker a signal with low distortion. Many other factors come into play. Another interesting discussion of speaker and amp matching would be Ralph from Atma-Sphere's paper on voltage vs. power paradigms.
And then there are listener preferences. Why is there both an F1 and F2 FirstWatt amp? Each matched different listener preferences (which were related to whether 2nd or 3rd order harmonic distortion was more prominent). They were at identical price points.
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You don't need a ton of watts to achieve dynamics, especially with HE speakers. If you can't get the first watt correct...HE speakers are best suited for class A triode which can be absolute bliss.
The next system I will cobble together will be a HE speaker system with a pair of SET amps. I'm leaning towards Bottlehead amps, speakers are still up in the air, but am leaning towards Klipsch Cornwalls.
As Roscoeiii noted, there is personal preference and 2nd and 3rd order harmonics, class gives the listener both, whereas class a/b only the 2nd order and would assume that class d would be the same.
Jim
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Jim, I'd keep the MiniWatts in mind too. Amazingly little noise from those amps. And the MiniWatt N3s sound great with Psvane tubes.
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Roscoeiii:
Bottlehead offers DIY kits for either 2A3's or 300B's that are very reasonably priced. I already have a Bottlehead Foreplay preamp that would work nicely.
Jim
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Roscoei, looking forward to reading about your setup there. Jim, the intriguing thing for me though is no clipping and no distortion. Putzey has actually said a lot of interesting things about Pass tech.. I think he's the fresh face and Pass has contributed what he will.
back ot, there is actually a guy here with the Pendragon and he loves them. Trying to provoke a review...
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Roscoei, looking forward to reading about your setup there. Jim, the intriguing thing for me though is no clipping and no distortion. Putzey has actually said a lot of interesting things about Pass tech.. I think he's the fresh face and Pass has contributed what he will.
back ot, there is actually a guy here with the Pendragon and he loves them. Trying to provoke a review...
With say a speaker with an eff of 98db+ clipping is rarely an issue, or is distortion. The amps I might build are 8.5 watts and because of the power supply have more than enough headroom to drive a pair of Cornwalls to ear splitting levels and without distortion and better yet, being single ended, all of the harmonics will be there.
Here's a link to them if interested:
http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=44&rn=434&action=show_detail
Jim
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RClark,
I would strongly recommend not writing off Nelson Pass. Have you looked closely at some of his designs and products over just the past 10 years? The man had a transistor designed just for his company (featured first in his SIT amp). "Contributed what he will"? C'mon, get real. We haven't even seen a high power implementation of his SIT transistor. I will be lining up to hear that one.
As others in multiple threads have mentioned, you are wading into dicey territory with a lot of your statements about amps and designers that as best I can tell you have not heard. Speaking in this way without direct experience is really doing some damage to your credibility. And I know I am not the only one who has said things like this about your posts.
Could I see ncores as amps that I will have for a looong loong time? Yes. But I will definitely ALWAYS follow what Nelson Pass is doing in his amp designs. His nickname is "Papa" for a reason.
In audio, there is no one-size-fits-all amplifier due to both differences in speakers and differences in listeners' preferences. Differences in amp and speaker characteristics is what leads to many folks putting together second systems that look very different from their main systems. That's why I have Hornshoppes & a MiniWatt N3 in my second (bedroom) system and SP Tech Minis and a beefy Butler 2250 in my main (living room) system.
Sorry if this is getting OT in a Lore thread, but I felt that this needed to be said. A lot of the things I have written in the past few posts on this thread encapsulate things I wished I'd known about when I was starting out in this hobby.
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RClark,
I would strongly recommend not writing off Nelson Pass. Have you looked closely at some of his designs and products over just the past 10 years? The man had a transistor designed just for his company (featured first in his SIT amp). "Contributed what he will"? C'mon, get real. We haven't even seen a high power implementation of his SIT transistor. I will be lining up to hear that one.
As others in multiple threads have mentioned, you are wading into dicey territory with a lot of your statements about amps and designers that as best I can tell you have not heard. Speaking in this way without direct experience is really doing some damage to your credibility. And I know I am not the only one who has said things like this about your posts.
Could I see ncores as amps that I will have for a looong loong time? Yes. But I will definitely ALWAYS follow what Nelson Pass is doing in his amp designs. His nickname is "Papa" for a reason.
In audio, there is no one-size-fits-all amplifier due to both differences in speakers and differences in listeners' preferences. Differences in amp and speaker characteristics is what leads to many folks putting together second systems that look very different from their main systems. That's why I have Hornshoppes & a MiniWatt N3 in my second (bedroom) system and SP Tech Minis and a beefy Butler 2250 in my main (living room) system.
Sorry if this is getting OT in a Lore thread, but I felt that this needed to be said. A lot of the things I have written in the past few posts on this thread encapsulate things I wished I'd known about when I was starting out in this hobby.
Nelson Pass is a true genius of the first order....I have to think that Doc of Bottlehead is also no slouch and has a growing Bottlehead following...
Jim
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Roscoeiii:
Bottlehead offers DIY kits for either 2A3's or 300B's that are very reasonably priced. I already have a Bottlehead Foreplay preamp that would work nicely.
Jim
Oh yeah, Bottleheads have a great reputation. I have only heard their headphone amps, but really liked what I heard there. Just thought I'd pass along my praise of the very affordable MiniWatts, with which I do have experience.
And I agree, wouldn't worry about clipping with 98dB speakers with either the Bottleheads or MiniWatt amps. Not an issue.
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I gotta leave but I want to read those responses and respond. Please don't get upset Roscoeii, I'm sure you're quite right. Peace.
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Nelson Pass is a true genius of the first order....I have to think that Doc of Bottlehead is also no slouch and has a growing Bottlehead following...
Jim
No argument there either. I've heard John Ver Halen of Lowther USA praise Doc very highly. And what amps does John Ver Halen sell? Nelson Pass's FirstWatt.
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I gotta leave but I want to read those responses and respond. Please don't get upset Roscoeiii, I'm sure you're quite right. Peace.
And don't take me the wrong way RClark. I don't mean any sort of malicious attack by what I am saying here (I have stated many times that part of what keeps me coming back to AC is the civility here). I want all of what I have said here to be read as helpful feedback. Audio forums at their best are made up of users and manufacturers helping each other out in their audio journeys.
On that note, I am going to bed. Happy audio travels everyone!
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RClark,
I would strongly recommend not writing off Nelson Pass. Have you looked closely at some of his designs and products over just the past 10 years? The man had a transistor designed just for his company (featured first in his SIT amp). "Contributed what he will"? C'mon, get real. We haven't even seen a high power implementation of his SIT transistor. I will be lining up to hear that one.
As others in multiple threads have mentioned, you are wading into dicey territory with a lot of your statements about amps and designers that as best I can tell you have not heard. Speaking in this way without direct experience is really doing some damage to your credibility. And I know I am not the only one who has said things like this about your posts.
Could I see ncores as amps that I will have for a looong loong time? Yes. But I will definitely ALWAYS follow what Nelson Pass is doing in his amp designs. His nickname is "Papa" for a reason.
In audio, there is no one-size-fits-all amplifier due to both differences in speakers and differences in listeners' preferences. Differences in amp and speaker characteristics is what leads to many folks putting together second systems that look very different from their main systems. That's why I have Hornshoppes & a MiniWatt N3 in my second (bedroom) system and SP Tech Minis and a beefy Butler 2250 in my main (living room) system.
Sorry if this is getting OT in a Lore thread, but I felt that this needed to be said. A lot of the things I have written in the past few posts on this thread encapsulate things I wished I'd known about when I was starting out in this hobby.
I'm strongly considering a Pass Labs Amp for my system at the moment. I had an XA 30.5 last year with my Zu's and I wish I had it now with the Dragons though I am sure my neighbors prefer the 2 watt Don Allen 45!
I will give more detail and a review after I have the new Mundorf SIO caps installed on the new crossover board and after I make some much needed bass traps for my room.
I can say now that the imaging, soundstage, tone, and timbre is fantastic. Bass nodes in my room are the only limiting factor to an amazing listening experience so far.
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And if anyone could help me decide which First Watt/Pass labs amp would be a good combo for my Pendragons and my Dodd Pre I would love the advice. I've read so much on the subject but am not an EE!
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Morganc,
As I suggested or alluded to above in some of my posts, I'd look at a low damping factor amp from the FirstWatt line. I don't think you need anything more than a FirstWatt with the Pendragons. As I moved through the FirstWatt line, I found that the 6moons reviews were immensely helpful, as Srajan has heard and compares everything in the line. I'd start there. You might also want to give Mark at Reno HiFi a call. He has a great return policy and knows these amps well.
If you can swing it financially, go SIT! But that is a very pricey one.
FWIW, with my single driver speakers I preferred the F3 and F2J. Not sure that the F1 or F2 would necessarily work with the speakers you have. If they do, damn are they great amps. And since they are current source amps (see the FirstWatt lit and 6moons on this), you can actually add little resistor networks at the speaker to adjust the damping factor.
ALSO: I have heard both Pass built and Rawson clone FirstWatts. Do not let anyone tell you that they are equivalent. Pass-built FirstWatt's killed the Rawson clones, not to mention the criticism that Rawson has received from Pass and others for profitting from designs intended for the DIY community rather than any commercial profit-making entity.
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As much as we all like playing with and debating about our amps and dacs, it is the loudspeaker that makes or breaks the system. It produces the most distortion and color, proper matching of components to a loudspeakers characteristics is the most important thing.
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+1
I am always a bit amazed by people who start with an amp and then try to find a loudspeaker to match it. Logic seems backwards to me.
As much as we all like playing with and debating about our amps and dacs, it is the loudspeaker that makes or breaks the system. It produces the most distortion and color, proper matching of components to a loudspeakers characteristics is the most important thing.
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As much as we all like playing with and debating about our amps and dacs, it is the loudspeaker that makes or breaks the system. It produces the most distortion and color, proper matching of components to a loudspeakers characteristics is the most important thing.
i agree; i don't seem to have this problem. i have been using the same dac for >10 years, and have no interest in changing. same turntable, a couple years longer. same w/the preamp. (don't ask me about tuners! :lol: ) w/speakers, which are fun to change, cuz there's so many different types, and they have such different presentations, i am only interested in finding an amp that matches the speaker well...
doug s.
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i agree; i don't seem to have this problem. i have been using the same dac for >10 years, and have no interest in changing. same turntable, a couple years longer. same w/the preamp. (don't ask me about tuners! :lol: ) w/speakers, which are fun to change, cuz there's so many different types, and they have such different presentations, i am only interested in finding an amp that matches the speaker well...
doug s.
I used to have the Art/dio too, but with a different power supply than the Bolder. I eventually went back to the stock Marantz, only because the soundstage is a little wider with my VMPS 626r's. That was a good DAC, it had a certain clarity and depth in midrange notes, I remember.
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As much as we all like playing with and debating about our amps and dacs, it is the loudspeaker that makes or breaks the system. It produces the most distortion and color, proper matching of components to a loudspeakers characteristics is the most important thing.
+2
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As much as we all like playing with and debating about our amps and dacs, it is the loudspeaker that makes or breaks the system. It produces the most distortion and color, proper matching of components to a loudspeakers characteristics is the most important thing.
+3 :thumb: It's very important to keep this perspective.
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Your system is only as good as the weakest link, but with the caveat the speakers should never be the weakest link.
Jim
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Just finished Michael Mardis article about gainstaging. Very interesting. That said, once gain is given proper attention, the ncores should work. There is a guy here with Pendragons who will be trying the ncore in a few weeks. Guess we'll find out how it goes.