AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: AliG on 22 Oct 2008, 04:10 am
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Can anyone pls provide a shortlist of good SET amps under $3000??
I'm going to use it for my upcoming new speakers, which looks like the one in the picture, but mine has ribbon tweeters :drool: :drool:
From the published technical specs:
Frequency Response: 30-30kHz +/- 2 dB
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms.
Sensitivity: 93 dB/2.83V/Meter
Crossover: 450Hz Second Order Acoustic In-Phase Linkwitz-Riley (Woofer to Midrange)
and 2.5kHz Fourth Order Acoustic In-Phase Linkwitz-Riley (Midrange to Tweeter)
(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/bagbyob/ob.jpg)
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Are you wanting a stereo amp or monoblocks or either? :)
I'd be looking at 300Bs, minimum. Maybe if you were actively bi-amping and not dealing with passive crossovers you could run less, but I'd feel comfortable with 8 watts or more on those speakers. There are a ton of good 300B SET designs out there, I'd probably be gravitating towards Bottlehead's amps; I really liked the Foreplay 2 preamp I had from them.
The 'peekas are quite pretty, gives me an idea or two for a DIY project 8)
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Surf's up Barry.... :jester:
Good luck with the new speakers.... :beer:
So.....a little over budget....
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1228750198&/Dehavilland-Aries-845---G-Mono
Here's the info... (http://www.dehavillandhifi.com/845classic.htm).. :thumb:
Also....keep you eyes open for a KR Audio amp....not many come up for sale used....but they make some excellent amps.
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Darn!!! :duh: I've totally forgotten to check out Dehavilland room at RMAF08!!!
Surf's up Barry.... :jester:
Good luck with the new speakers.... :beer:
So.....a little over budget....
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1228750198&/Dehavilland-Aries-845---G-Mono
Here's the info... (http://www.dehavillandhifi.com/845classic.htm).. :thumb:
Also....keep you eyes open for a KR Audio amp....not many come up for sale used....but they make some excellent amps.
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I've totally forgotten to check out Dehavilland room at RMAF08!!!
No need....it always sounds good... :wink:
"deHavilland Electronics with Wilson Benesch speakers,
the room we revisited the most. Sound to die for."
John Zurek, Positive Feedback RMAF 2008 Show Report
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Since you are going to be using the speakers with a Dodd preamp which has tubes, why not consider a nice solid state amp. As you know I like my McCormack 225 amp. The McCormack 125 is supposed to be a killer and sound like mine. I can always bring my amp over so you can try it before you buy an amp.
Bob
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Barry,
One word -- biamp. 8)
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An 845 SET is closer to 20 wpc... much better. Not cheap though.
Dave
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EAR 859 or 869
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Errr...no no.. this is a completely different system. I will use my modified TACT 2.0S as the preamp.
The Dodd preamp will sit permanently with the HT3.
Since you are going to be using the speakers with a Dodd preamp which has tubes, why not consider a nice solid state amp. As you know I like my McCormack 225 amp. The McCormack 125 is supposed to be a killer and sound like mine. I can always bring my amp over so you can try it before you buy an amp.
Bob
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My humble dos pence,
#1 biamp as woodsyi says. Seriously, it will make a significant difference in the performance of the SET amp to not have to drive the bass woofer. Damping factor which is needed for woofers is not the strength of SET amps. Here you can really make your money go a lot further if you use a beefy SS amp on the woofer, then a more attainable medium powered SET amp can be used to best results.
#2 it is easier to make a good quality lower powered SET amp then a higher powered one. Price, complexity both go up exponentially with power. Also 20w SET amp typically have extreme voltages (900+) in the power supply making them a risk if you have small children/pets.
#3 IMO, there is no rocket science to SET amps. The best designs are typically simplistic, the technology having been around since the '30s. Often times the hobbiest built amp that they sell, as a hobby. This is probably the best price/perf, not having to pay for overhead business costs, dealer markups, etc.
Names of such hobbiest don't come to mind off hand, but I've seen many of their offerings on A'gon. Their designs look sound and unlike many marketeer's offerings, there is transparency to their designs, so any technician can work on the amps. Most often the designs are point to point which make maintenance easier as well as less needed.
Bottlehead is also a good value proposition. Their designs are very well thought out. You aren't paying extravagant markups for fancy ads in hi-fi rags and distribution channels. They use great iron (Magnequest), which is the biggest component to performance in a SET amp.
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EAR 859 or 869
Those are supposedly fantastic sounding amps. Classics and uniformly praised.
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Errr...no no.. this is a completely different system. I will use my modified TACT 2.0S as the preamp.
The Dodd preamp will sit permanently with the HT3
Then I agree with you. Get tubes! :banana piano:
Bob
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Can someone explain to me how do I bi-amp?
Let's assume that I now have a SET amp, and a SS amp. Now what, do I need a preamp that will send the mid-high signal to the SET, and then the bass signal to the SS amp?
what kind of preamp will do that?
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The signal is divided after the preamp and before your amplifiers. If your existing passive crossover networks are set up for biamplification, it's a plug and play situation. If not, you will need a passive network designed specifically for your cabinets and drivers or an electronic crossover carefully calibrated to the same parameters. In either case, you will need someone else's skills to optimize the crossover points, slopes and gain matching. It requires instruments and experimentation.
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I thought TACT had crossover functions, no? You are already in digital domain in Tact. So, you can use any of the digital active x-overs like the Behringer DCX unit to handle that chore but you would lose the DAC and output sections of the Tact preamp. I know you put some money into those sections. :( BTW, active x-over work best when you take the passive out of the loop. Check with your speaker manufacturer to see if this is feasible. Otherwise you may have to use passive biamping which will bring level matching into the equation.
I use an analog active x-over from Marchand since I don't want my vinyl signal going through the AD/DA conversions. Now, if you have binding posts for each driver, I can lend you a 3-way active crossover for triamping....
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The easiest solution is to passively biamp. If you have two outputs from your TACT preamp, run one to the SET amp, and one to the SS amp. If you don't have two outputs, use a Y cable to make two. Then hookup your SET amp to the upper mid/tweeter binding posts and the SS amp to the woofer binding posts. The passive crossover does the splitting for you.
The only thing then to account for is the difference in (voltage) sensitivity of the two amps. Ideally, you can have your SET amp made to match the sensitivity of the SS amp you choose. SS amps typically have lower sensitivity than tube amps. This means you would otherwise need to put an attenuator in front of the tube amp to match the sensitivities. The closer the sensitivities are to eachother, the less attenuation needed by the more sensitive amp, which is a good thing IMO. You really don't want to amplify just to throw it away on a resistor to ground.
The specs to look for is input sensitivity for the two amps.
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The level matching is what killed the passive biamping for me. I hate the idea of putting a muzzle on the tube amp for the mid/highs but I tried. I didn't like it. If you are go passive, find a SS amp with high output voltage so you don't have to attenuate the tube amp.
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The TACT only has one output. So I'll have to find an interconnects that will split into 2 pairs of L/R.
So Woodsyi, are you doing active bi-amping now?
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Behringer A500 - check this bad boy out:
(http://www.audiolines.com/image.php?type=D&id=29080)
I replaced a Crown K2 at 500 wpc with two of these set up right next to the speakers (12" speaker cables). They drive my 4x10"x2 bass arrays much better, I believe because of the short speaker cables. They have attenuators and you should be able to keep the attenuation out of the tube amp (BOO) in favor of tailoring with these.
Best part? CHEAP! I got mine for $170 ea. delivered. I'm only using them to about 100 hz but I think they'd be fine to 450. Also, check the woofer impedance curve. Behringer recommends an 8 ohm load when running these bridged.
I haven't dealt with these guys but here's a great deal - B-stock at $129 ea:
http://www.audiolines.com/product.php?productid=12906 (http://www.audiolines.com/product.php?productid=12906)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but biamping won't take the XO circuit out of the equation. You don't need an outboard XO to split the signal from the TacT, just a Y-splitter like Joshk said.
Wanna get totally crazy? You could dump the TacT and replace with a parametric EQ on the bass circuit. You could go source direct or have any flavor of preamp. Nahhh, that's just nuts. :D
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It absolutely has to be a SET amp?
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The TACT only has one output. So I'll have to find an interconnects that will split into 2 pairs of L/R.
So Woodsyi, are you doing active bi-amping now?
Yes, I am. I am using a Marchand XM126.
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I would look at the Ultra fi Monaco . Dennis Moore is auctioning one of these off on Audiogon.
If I were looking I would seriously consider this amp :thumb:
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Some of my suggestions, based on what is on A'gon right now....
$900 offers good value, could be modded later (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1229774502&/Antique-Sound-Lab.-aq1006dt-845-set)
K&K offers seriously great designs, maybe he would budge on price to be within your range (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1229088446)
Lots of choices in fact. Those were just a couple. I'd like to try out a Free Lunch amp, and that is probably what I'd build.
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Couple of thoughts...
Instead of SET, go with OTL amp from Atma-Sphere. On the right speakers (which I believe these will be), the Atma-Sphere sound is magically! To my ears, it has all the positive attributes one associates with SET, but is more robust at the extremes (especially the bass) and produces a more open and fast sound. A pair of used M-60's would be more than enough power and will keep you under your 3k budget.
If you really have your heart set on going SET, I am playing with a modified (i.e. upgraded) pair of Audio Mirror 45 watt/channel amps that use the 6C33C output tubes. While they are still breaking in, I think they have some excellent potential (although I don't believe they will best the Atma-Sphere amps). Here is their webpage: http://www.audiomirror.com/amps.html
George
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suggestion:
Wright Sound WPA Mono 7s - 300B, 7 watts - $1845/pr made in USA point to point wiring Change stock tubes when you can...
http://www.wright-sound.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=21
biamp woofer
t
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Well... because the TACT DAC/preamp is a solid state, so I need some tubes in the chain to melow out the sound a little. :wink:
It absolutely has to be a SET amp?
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Darned... I remember seeing one pair on Audiogon not too long ago.. but it's sold! :duh:
Couple of thoughts...
Instead of SET, go with OTL amp from Atma-Sphere. On the right speakers (which I believe these will be), the Atma-Sphere sound is magically! To my ears, it has all the positive attributes one associates with SET, but is more robust at the extremes (especially the bass) and produces a more open and fast sound. A pair of used M-60's would be more than enough power and will keep you under your 3k budget.
If you really have your heart set on going SET, I am playing with a modified (i.e. upgraded) pair of Audio Mirror 45 watt/channel amps that use the 6C33C output tubes. While they are still breaking in, I think they have some excellent potential (although I don't believe they will best the Atma-Sphere amps). Here is their webpage: http://www.audiomirror.com/amps.html
George
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Atma-Sphere OTLs were really nice with horns. I would think they would be good with ribbon tweeter and a small midrange cone. I don't think the 4th order passive filter between the tweeter and the midrange woofer would present a tough load. What's the sensitivity of the mid/high as a unit if you decoupled the bass woofer?
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Err...not sure... I need to ask Jim Salk about this. I think the specs may change a little because this is going to be the first pair of open baffle with ribbon tweeter he builds.
Atma-Sphere OTLs were really nice with horns. I would think they would be good with ribbon tweeter and a small midrange cone. I don't think the 4th order passive filter between the tweeter and the midrange woofer would present a tough load. What's the sensitivity of the mid/high as a unit if you decoupled the bass woofer?
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I'd rather go SET or triode PP then OTL, but that is me.
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Err...not sure... I need to ask Jim Salk about this. I think the specs may change a little because this is going to be the first pair of open baffle with ribbon tweeter he builds.
Barry,
Why not go active crossover period? You can ask Mr. Murphy and Mr. Salk to set the parameters for a Behringer DCX2496. What you will spend on active cross over will be more than offset by not needing any fancy caps for passive filters. It may be a good think to have DSP for room interaction, especially for an open baffle. You can even mod the x-over like George did. aa
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Can you live with 6-8 watts? Here is another suggestion:
Since the Hagtech Cornet2 can compete with well known high end phono pre-amps (link (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58941.msg523190#msg523190)) and the SqueezeBox Rebox has an analog tube stage that Jim consulted on (link (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50957.msg456966#msg456966)), maybe one of the Hagerman amps would be worth a try.
The Cymbal (http://www.hagtech.com/cymbal.html) is the DIY amp and comes in at well under your budget.
The PA-10 (http://www.haglabs.com/pa10.html) takes it to the next level:
Distortion is exceedingly low, especially given the fact that no feedback is used, thanks to the harmonic cancellation of the output stage, which operates partially in both single-ended parallel and push-pull differential modes. This balance results in SET-like musicality yet with PP control and dynamics. The PA-10 is a no-holds-barred design and pushes the state-of-the-art in vacuum tube amplification.
I have not heard any of the Hagtech amps, but I do use a modded Cornet2 with AVA electronics and with the mods it is phenomenal.
Wayne
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Good point about Hagerman. Don't forget the PA10 (http://www.haglabs.com/pa10.html). This would be a great little amp, I suspect.
Then you have the SETH (http://www.magnequest.com/diy_lessard_2a3pp.htm). Choices, choices.
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AliG: Where did you get that awsome cartoon? I have never seen anything quite like it before. :D I can't believe how long it plays.
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I am using an Almarro A318B with my custom 97 db efficient 2 way floorstanding speakers. I need more bass than my speakers provide so I use a pair of Hawthorme Audio Augies as OB subs to dial in the bass response I want.
I run speaker cables from the speaker output on my Almarro to my Rythmik Audio A370PEQ dedicated subwoofer amp that has been optimized for the Augies.
This allows me to enjoy the benefits of the Almarro while calling on the Rythmik Audio sub amp to take care of the very bottom end frequencies.
This has allowed me to simplify my system from the past systems where I used a modified Behringer and multiple amps and settings.
The Almarro A318B is incredible. It is an integrated amp that has tremendous sound quality. It has guts to drive many speakers and does not have bloated or loose bass.
The midrange and high frequencies are exactly what I have been searching for.
I have decided to add the Augies and sub amp because I have a good sized room and am a bass freak also. I also have custom subs using TC Sounds cost no object drivers added for HT duty.
I heard the prototype or initial version of those speakers at AK Fest. Jim has another winner on his hands.
This is one of very few commercial designs I would consider purchasing if I was in the market. If the new tweeter has allowed for an improvement than I imagine they will be worth the wait.
A similar setup to mine would allow you to have the grunt needed for the bass drivers while enjoying all the benefits of SET for the midrange & high frequencies.
I will look forward to hearing what amps you try and your experience with these fine speakers. Jim is awesome to work with.
-Nick
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Have you heard an EL34 tube based amp?
I have Cayin 860 monoblocks that put out 38 watts in triode mode, or 70 watts ultralinear. They are push-pull though, not SET.
They can be found preowned within your stated budget limits.
It's almost like going to Baskins & Robbins with the multitude of tube amp flavors. It can be really tough to make a decision without sampling something personally.
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Another vote for the Atma-Spheres
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I have suggestions but a question 1st... what does the impedance curve look like on those speakers?
dave
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Why not go active crossover period? You can ask Mr. Murphy and Mr. Salk to set the parameters for a Behringer DCX2496.
By the time the DCX is modded sufficiently to be worth listening to about a 3rd of the budget will be gone. The thing does have a really versatile UI thou and can do things no passive XO can.
dave
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I'd rather go SET or triode PP then OTL, but that is me.
:thumb:
I did the OTL thing for a bit and really hated the experience.
Going a bit further, I prefer PP triode over SET as well.
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Hi Ali,
I just bought Melody M300b monos.
Way under your budget ........love it.
just test them with vintage Radio Shack drivers in OB design.
Love it.
I will use these to voice my other single driver designs in the near future.
if you need a good deal on those (new) , let me know.
Mariusz
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I'd rather go SET or triode PP then OTL, but that is me.
:thumb:
I did the OTL thing for a bit and really hated the experience.
Going a bit further, I prefer PP triode over SET as well.
x 3 vote for PP Triode over SET. :thumb: I don't know what it is, but SETs for me run a fine line of working or not and the synergy with the speaker is critical. In addition, they definitely shine on smaller scale vocals, jazz, folk stuff but not so well on larger scale complex classical and rock. PP for some reason seems to work more universally with more speakers and types of music.
I had Atmasphere M60 Mk III OTLs for about 1 year then had them upgraded by Jena Labs thinking that would cure my illls. I still could not enjoy them for extended periods of time. Just a little to thin and analytical for my tastes. :cry:
For me the EL34 triode amps are rich, resolving, relaxing and provide me hours of musical enjoyment. aa
Kenreau
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From the published technical specs:
Frequency Response: 30-30kHz +/- 2 dB
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms.
Sensitivity: 93 dB/2.83V/Meter
Crossover: 450Hz Second Order Acoustic In-Phase Linkwitz-Riley (Woofer to Midrange)
and 2.5kHz Fourth Order Acoustic In-Phase Linkwitz-Riley (Midrange to Tweeter)
(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/bagbyob/ob.jpg)
That midrange driver appears to be PHL 1120/1130 series, which is 96dB sensitive (at 8 and 16 Ohms respectively). It's probably being padded down to match the lower sensitivity of the woofer.
Good ribbon tweeters often hit >96-98dB sensitivity easily, so that's not the problem. If you were to go the active route, you could have honest-to-goodness 96dB/8ohm (or 16) treble/midrange module, which will open up great flea-amp potential. I used to run 1.5 watt 45 SET on 95dB treble/midrange modules with plenty of power.
I would *not* power the entire speaker passively with most SET's, except maybe certain 6C33C types with high(er) current/damping factor. Biamping, passively or actively, will be a problem with the 450Hz woofer crossover, which is too high. I've tried and tried, and I personally cannot accept the degree of coherence loss unless the crossover point is at most ~150Hz or lower.
Of course, those PHL drivers can be used down to 150-170Hz when loaded into a huge sealed box (6-10L) :)
Just some ramblings..
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I remember hearing those super-cool looking Salk speakers at the Audio Karma fest (with the dome tweeter rather than the ribbon). At that time, Jim had two forms of amplification available, both from Van Alstine. One of the amps was the Ultra 70, or whatever Frank calls his upgraded Dynaco ST70. I never heard it playing though, because Jim said it didn't work with the speakers. His conjecture seemed to be that the speaker presented a difficult impedance curve for tube amps in general. I don't know if things have changed in the design, or is this is alleviated by bi-amping, but I'd talk to Jim about the plan before you commit $3000 to SET amp.
If you do choose to go with SET, I'll do the standard thing and recommend the manufacturers that made my gear: Music Reference and Space-Tech-Labs. For what it's worth, Albert at Space-Tech-Labs also makes tubed active crossovers, if you're thinking of bi-amping.
Chad
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for amps, i would try almarro and audio mirror. based upon comments of others, i would also try promitheus, if you can deal with their delivery times. (these look like a killer deal, even if you cannot conwert them to 120v, and have to use step-up transformers):
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59528.0
i am also a firm believer in active x-overs. however, short of complete re-design of your speakers' x-over, in your case, i would stick w/bi-wiring an set amp on your mains, and then use an active x-over on a pair of subs, crossed over at ~60-80hz or so. the set amps will work fine on your mains crossed there, and the mains themselves will sound better w/their woofers not seeing anything below the x-over frequency.
also, re: dsp x-over, i used to use a marchand, (tho not tubed, like rim's), and my winyl still sounds great now that i am using a deqx. its pluses outweigh it's minuses, imo...
doug s.
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This is very hard to beat. From Peters website at http://mcalisteraudio.com/
Peter McAListers SE44 : Single Ended Class A Stereo Amplifier
The SE44 stereo single ended power amplifier utilizes four horizontal output tubes paralleled in triode mode to produce 22watts per channel in class A.
The input stage for each channel utilizes an improved Mu follower design that utilizes a 6LU6 as the voltage amplifier (triode section) and ( pentode) section as the constant current source. This is a true constant current source that has more than enough gain to properly respond to the small signal / voltage changes without a resistor dropping large amounts of voltage typically in standard Mu follower designs.
Additionally a driver stage has been included which is a critical factor to ensure excellent low end response and a quick rise time. The driver stage uses a 6/12SN7 of which one triode provides regulation with the other triode directly driving the output tubes in a cathode follower configuration without the need for capacitors.
The only capacitors in the signal path are between the input and driver stage which are high quality polypropylene. The output stage for each channel consists of four 12GE5 or horizontal sweep tubes paralleled in triode mode with class A operation. This output configuration can pass a large amount of current with harmonic distortion in dB relative fundamental of 2nd -26, 3rd -44, and 4th - 60.
A separate and well regulated bias supply with external top mounted chassis adjustment is used. The negative voltage is adjustable and fed to the control grid of the output tube that determines the current flow and class of operation.
All of my power amplifier designs use a fixed bias voltage that eliminates the cathode resistor and electrolytic by-pass cap producing an amplifier with fast rise times, superior dynamics and transparency. The output transformers are custom designed and hand wound with four primary and three secondary interleaved sections with each layer varnished prior to insulation.
The power supply has over 2,000uf of capacitance by-passed with film capacitors- electrolytic capacitors are only used in the power supply and never directly in the signal path. Plate voltage is delayed 30 seconds to prevent cathode stripping. This automatic system uses a damper diode providing D.C. relay voltage through a controlled warm up. Quality Ceramic tube sockets, point to point wiring, IEC input, 5 way binding posts and NOS tubes complete the package. All tubes are NOS with 13 tube compliment of 2X6LU6, 2X6/12SN7, 8X12GE5 and 1X6AX4 thermal delay tube.
Build Features:
• Only film capacitors in the signal path- no electrolytic capacitors (only in power supply circuits).
Regulated fixed bias
• Thermal delay to prevent cathode stripping.
• Hardwired point to point.
• 12GE5 horizontal output tubes that have lower harmonic distortion than 811, 300B ,6550, EL34 etc and are more efficient than 300B’s. A minor modification will allow the use of a variety of different types such as the EL509/PL519 or 6KG6 currently produced in Russia.
• Aluminum one piece powder coated chassis design
• Amplifier dimensions: 21”W x 14”D Power supply 8”H x 14”W X 8”D
Build Options:
• Front panel lettering in white or gold
• LED color choice for power on and operation status
• Umbilical cord length between the power supply and amplifier to suit your needs.
• Solid side panels in Maple, Cherry, Oak or Paduke ( similar to mahogany )
• 240 volt configuration available on request
Pricing: SE-44 $2299
All prices are in USD and do not include shipping or customs duty and brokerage fees if applicable.
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Some of my suggestions, based on what is on A'gon right now....
$900 offers good value, could be modded later (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1229774502&/Antique-Sound-Lab.-aq1006dt-845-set)
........
I owned these ASL 845 monos for several years and loved them. You still get the sweet tone, harmonics and inner-lit quality that we chase SET for, but the 845 tube provides more grunt and power output (22 wpc) than the typical SET amp. On the right speaker, it is great!
And I can only imagine how good the DeHavilland 845 is!
I would own it in a heartbeat!
:thumb:
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This is very hard to beat.
Peter McAListers SE44 : Single Ended Class A Stereo Amplifier
From Peters website at http://mcalisteraudio.com/
The SE44 stereo single ended power amplifier utilizes four horizontal output tubes paralleled in triode mode to produce 22watts per channel in class A.
I agree. :thumb:
Lin