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Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => NuForce => Topic started by: beachbum on 10 Oct 2009, 04:08 pm

Title: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 10 Oct 2009, 04:08 pm
Hey new V3 users when you get your upgraded amps dialed in clue us with
differences between V2 and V3. Playing a classic reissue Crosby Stills Nash lp
now and the sound is clear, clean, powerful with finesse, pace and rock solid bass.
Looking forward to improving on that. In fact i've gone the upgrade path SE, V2, and have no doubt that V3 is going to be a step up in sound. Just how is whats got me curious.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 13 Oct 2009, 11:26 am
Most of the V2 boards from 1st production run went to distributors and dealers (half of those went to Japan and they don't read this English forum :)).  I think users feedback will only come out in November.

[Oppos, I meant V3]
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 14 Oct 2009, 05:32 pm
Most of the V2 boards from 1st production run went to distributors and dealers (half of those went to Japan and they don't read this English forum :)).  I think users feedback will only come out in November.
Jason did you mean to say V3 in your quote above. I ve asked this in another post here but will ask again are the V3 boards here in the USA and are upgrades being preformed now.
Thanks for replying
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 14 Oct 2009, 09:30 pm
Yes, we do have limited upgrades being performed now. Get on the queue so we can schedule it.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 14 Oct 2009, 09:52 pm
As soon as you get John the RMA# i will be sending my amps to you for V3. I m a everyday music enjoyer and its going to be very hard to be with out music for a period of time but as in the other upgrades done by you SE, V2 i know its going to be well worth the inconvenience. I want to thank you and Cassy for having the best upgrade plan in the audio world. Jason thanks for replying you will be getting my amps very soon.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: cryotweaks on 6 Nov 2009, 11:49 pm
Let me just say that the Nuforce V3 improves greatly after 150 hours on them.  When I plugged them in initially, they were much less 3 dimensional, much less smooth in the midrange, and the bass wasn't nearly as articulate. 

The interconnects need some serious break in too.  I let them both play 24 / 7 over the last week and they sound much better today.  They are indeed made for each other.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 7 Nov 2009, 06:08 am
my IA-7 v3 just came back from factory after the upgrade. now burning in, reports here later. :drool:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 7 Nov 2009, 04:45 pm
Hello cryotweaks and thanks for the info. I take it you also are using Nuforce ICs and Speaker wire. Let us know what improvements you are hearing as more hrs add up on your amps/wire.
I ve had a bit of bad luck sending my amps in for the upgrade. I used USPS priority mail and they got there in two days this past Wednesday so i could get a faster turnaround but the PO delivered them before Nuforce was open at 8:45 am on Wednesday and as i checked this morning my amps are still at the Post Office. Oh well good things come to those that wait.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: paularthur on 7 Nov 2009, 06:31 pm
Many, many hours of break in are needed!!

Initial thoughts in discusion to a friend's inquiry:

(updated amps arrived 10/24)

Thu 10/29/2009 1:05 PM
They are coming along nicely now.  Be prepared however, they are shockingly bad right out of the box.  At least 100 hours are needed.  Mine have just over that now and they sound good.  I?ll do some serious listening tomorrow.
 (http://)

Fri 10/30/2009 10:32 AM
I moved the Kaptivator ($1500) off the Lamm and replaced it with the Purist Audio Purist Anniversary ($2900) AC cord.  MSB lost the Purist Anniversary power cord to the Lamm but got the Purist Audio Design Aqueous Anniversary AC cord instead.  This had been one of the final selections for the MSB before the amps went out.  Also went back to the Purist Audio Proteus Provectus interconnect on the MSB instead of the High Lamusika which goes back to the Artemis PH-1 phono amp.  The Proteus Provectus just gives better balance with the MSB.  The Kaptivator also went back to the Artemis.  That is until I can get an Aluminata AC for the PH 1.  That combo was amazing!

Man, I need a drink!

Fri 10/30/2009 12:50 PM
"Do you have a pair of V2s in the house to directly compare to?"

No but that?s a very tough call.  I?ve changed things around quite a bit.  Once I get the parts for the amp I?ll be more comfortable moving things around.  I need to put all the cables back to the way I had them with the v2 as well as take them off the EMF/MD Platforms. At that point I?ll be ready to evaluate them properly as well as the changes I?ve now made.

However, if I were to offer an opinion?no I need more time and so do they!  I guess that is an opinion so here goes:  Today is the first time they have started to sound like music again.  That was primarily do to the cable changes as before that change I was unsatisfied with the overall presentation.  It seemed somewhat disjointed.  The upper frequencies did not belong to the midrange.  This can be characteristic of the silver High Lamusika with some cable/electronics combinations.  When the amps were new these cables seemed to open them up a bit more than anything except for the balanced Proteus Provectus direct from the MSB.  Now, however, with more hours on the amp they are ?to much?.  The Acapella cables have a character that is great or awful.  No in-between.  I like them very much with the Artemis PH 1 and the Music Maker III.  Putting the Proteus Provectus back between the MSB and Lamm produced a wholeness in the presentation.  I did also change the AC cord placement in the system as well which alseo contributed to the gestalt.  It is quite pleasing now but, as I said, I need more time with the system and there may also be some more time needed when I fix the binding post.

Do I hear a transformation from v2?  Not yet.  Is there a sonic character that I can identify between the them?  Yes a subtle softening of the high frequencies just below the harmonics but also a clearer window into the soundstage.  This is most apparent with the current cable set up I have.  A change in the power cords can obfuscate this.  It is pretty subtle.

Let me end with this:  Perhaps the most important improvemt that can be wrought in either v2 or v3 guise is the right AC power cord.  In my Reference System as well as the High End system,  unquestionalbly, the JPS Labs Aluminata AC power cords are transformational.  Is a $3500 AC cord worth  it?  And remember you need two.  All I can say is that the Reference 9SE's most certainly are worth the Aluminata!

Good listening,
Paul
P.A.U.L.
www.precisionaudioonline.com
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 8 Nov 2009, 08:36 am
We strongly recommend anyone using Nuforce amps to go with our Focused Field cable :)
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: paularthur on 8 Nov 2009, 04:30 pm
Jason,

Are AC power cords in the works?

Paul
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 8 Nov 2009, 07:19 pm
paularthur thanks for sharing your findings much appreciated. I ve tried different power cords with my amps but none in the price range of Aluminatas. Can you give us what you are hearing with and with out them with your amps.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: John Casler on 8 Nov 2009, 07:38 pm
Hello cryotweaks and thanks for the info. I take it you also are using Nuforce ICs and Speaker wire. Let us know what improvements you are hearing as more hrs add up on your amps/wire.
I ve had a bit of bad luck sending my amps in for the upgrade. I used USPS priority mail and they got there in two days this past Wednesday so i could get a faster turnaround but the PO delivered them before Nuforce was open at 8:45 am on Wednesday and as i checked this morning my amps are still at the Post Office. Oh well good things come to those that wait.
Mike

As Mike's NuFORCE dealer I have been trying to help him sort this US Post Office thing out.

I strongly suggest that anyone sending equipment to NuFORCE use either FEDEX or UPS as they have a better delivery schedule and repeat delivery attempts that will facilitate delivery.

The US Post Office, leaves a notice/slip to come and pick up the shipment at the Post Office which can delay delivery.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: John Casler on 8 Nov 2009, 07:44 pm
Jason,

Are AC power cords in the works?

Paul

I would second that suggestion/question.  It would seem that a NuFORCE Power Cord might have the potential to be the most significant of all the cords/cables for these amps.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: paularthur on 8 Nov 2009, 09:28 pm
If I may ramble a bit, I?d like to discuss power in general and on various components in response to your inquiry as well as the R9SE/Aluminata combination.  I also invite you to see further thoughts regarding power delivery in P.A.U.L.?s November e-zine at:  http://www.precisionaudioonline.com/e-zine.html

Power in general and the R9SE:
I?ve recommended to both of you (R9SEv2 customers) not to shut off the 9?s.  I, however, have been on an austerity budget and have been shutting down the system whenever not listening.  Last night while preparing for a production of Swan Lake, I will be attending today; I listened through the six sides of The Boston conducted by Ozawa on an admittedly and routinely disappointing DG pressing.  Nevertheless, it was quite enlightening vis a vis my behest.

Side one was so disorganized I thought the pressing and recording were simply botched.  No bass or highs, forget about harmonics.  Wandering image?it was almost unlistenable.  I persisted even though I had an admittedly superior production on a USSR Melodiya/Angle pressing with Rozhdestvensky and the Moscow Radio Symphony Orchestra.  Well, by side four bass had returned as had highs, albeit no harmonic structure, imaging vastly improved but?not all right.  Dramatic improvement by the end of side four and by side six, most if not all had returned.  It was amazing to hear the system come together over the course of this listening session.  I cannot express the importance of keeping, at least transistor, components on all the time.  Interestingly, my tube gear does not exhibit the dramatic transformation I heard with the 9?s.  Generally, I find the LAMM, Artemis and Music Reference sound right in less than an hour.  Once fully broken in of course.

Power cords, interconnects and the Nu Force P9 Pre-amp
On another note, I have been spending more time in the Eminent Technology High End room and have this to report:  First, the Nu Force P9 is dramatically more musical connected to the Music Reference amp with Purist Audio Design Proteus Provectus balanced interconnects.  And though I liked it, it is a far, far better pre-amp than I had originally thought when driven by the JPS Labs Aluminata AC cord.  Shockingly so!  And second, while I have not found the RM 200 amp to be very sensitive to AC power cords the Isoclean Focus power cord has changed my opinion.  The VI power cord, obviously, was not the synergistic match for the RM 200. 

The P9 took on a warmth, mid-range and high frequency sweetness and coherence I?d expect from a far, far more expensive transistor pre-amp.  And it retained its admittedly great strengths of frequency extension, powerful drive and crystalline clarity.  I just wish it didn?t take a $3650 interconnect and a $3500 on a $3150 preamp to achieve this!  Still, I?m very impressed.  As for the RM 200, the bass, in particular became testicular, if you will (with the Isoclean Focus AC cord).  Quite surprising even for its Russian KT88 output tubes.  This was apparent on all tested pre to power interconnects.

Tue 10/28/2008 12:47 PM
JPS Aluminata AC cord on the Lamm LL2 Pre-amp
The Omega (full range ribbon speakers) sounds more coherent than I?ve ever heard.  The Aluminata AC (and interconnects) on the LL2 (and JPS Labs AC cords on the 9SEv2?s) seems to have added, literally, another octave and a half to the bass.   Though, I hate this word it is ?awesome?.  The entire spectrum is now of one piece of cloth.  The slight reticence I reported before (admittedly with 40 or so hours less on the pre-amp) is now perfectly balanced.  A direct comparison with the previous AC cord (on the Lamm), the JPS Kaptovator and a very good cord itself, reveals an even greater sense of space.  While the mid-range was good, exceptional actually, with the Aluminata (AC cord) it is as close as I have experienced to a live performance of a live performance.  I no longer have any reservations on the high frequencies or harmonic structure (of the Lamm).  I could close P.A.U.L. down today and for the rest of my life be happy with this system.

I must now ask myself ?What more might I achieve and at what cost??  I doubt, without perhaps spending an additional $70,000 to $100,000, an improvement of the magnitude I have achieved with the incremental upgrades I have made to this system would be gained.  The only improvements left might be the $5000 DAC upgrade for the MSB, some $5000 or $6000 moving coil cartridge with an equally expensive phono amp, $16,000 for the LAMM L2, $24,000 for the LAMM M2.2, $10,000 to $15,000 on a equipment rack and SRA shelving, $10,000 in power conditioning and finishing the entire system in Aluminata cabling for around $50,000.  Oops $100,000?  I guess not.

Oh what the heck!  You only live once!

Sat 4/11/2009 6:36 PM
NuForce Reference 9SEv2 with JPS Labs Aluminata interconnects and adding the PS Audio Power Plant Premiere supplied first by PAD Purist Anniversary AC cords and followed by changing to the JPS Labs Aluminata AC Cord
At 6 hours of running in I sat to take a first serious listen to the Purist Anniversary AC cord supplying power to the Power Plant Premiere.  I did here a significant difference (from the PAD Aqueous Anniversary AC cord) upon first turning on the system but held judgment.

The change I?d liken to installing an Acapella Plasma tweeter into the system.  There is a lightness or illumination to the sound previously not heard.  The definition of notes is far more clearly delineated across the entire frequency spectrum as though the notes are filled in from the inside out.  For example when listening to piano the initial hit of the hammer had previously overwhelmed the sound.  I think what has taken place is a correction in the time domain.  Now I hear each note as whole in time.  That is, it has put the sonic character of the instrument back together, if you will.

This characteristic is obvious up and down the audio spectrum.  Bass notes have taken on a more solid form.  Lines are clear in a way piston speakers, like the Wilson, reproduce so well albeit at the expense of the sonority of an instrument.  The explosive percussive sound, now in many Audiophiles and reviewers crosshairs, has led to the reportedly ?best? piston speakers such as the Wilson which tend to capture the texture of an instrument?s sound but loose the feeling of naturalness.  The Omega has what I hear as one of the most natural sonic signatures I?ve yet experienced.  The problem some have with planers is the lack of that percussive, overpowering in my opinion, bass and mid-bass.  Interestingly, with the Power Plant on the PAD power cord the Omega has gained the visceral impact of a great piston speaker through greater delineation.  The combined effect of the speed of the planer driver with the impact I now hear creates a much more complete representation of power and drive at low frequencies.

This character is carried up the frequency spectrum.  I have spoken of this system previously as having a whole cloth presentation.  What has been added is a transparency at the micro level of musical reproduction without creating a sense of discontinuity.  This discontinuity to which I refer is most apparent in overly analytical components.  Exciting yes.  Real?  Hardly.

The cables will burn in over the next several hundred hours, I expect.  I am most curious to see how they mature.  This has led me to the inevitable conclusion that I must get two more Purist Audio Design Purist Anniversary AC power cords and one more JPS Labs Aluminata AC cord so I can run the entire system from each set to compare the whole as well as try different AC cords on different components.

To be continued?

Moving the JPS Labs Aluminata AC cord to the Power Plant Premiere introduced me to?the real thing.  Everything the PAD Purist Power cord offered (on the Power Plant Premiere) was improved upon and some aberrations (in this particular system) not noticed before were revealed.  The Aluminata revealed an ever so slight but clearly audible dryness to the room acoustic as well as a suppression of sibilance.  Frequency extension did not change enough to comment on but where I heard a ?lightness or illumination? before I now heard each individual note illuminated from within.  The Aluminata showed the PAD to have had a hole in the middle of the note, if you will.  Each note now was full yet clearly defined as an individual contributor to the whole.  If I were to translate this into a visual image I?d say I could now see the texture of the instrument; its color, shape and the grain of the finish.  During listening to various pieces I had a relaxed sense of awe.  I found myself smiling as I do during a live event.

However, I do want to be very clear.  Final analysis was using the Power Plant Premiere as the AC power distribution source.  The overall results of any system are ultimately dependent on the quality of the AC provided to the equipment.  That being said, it is extremely rare to hear the same attributes for any component or cable, for that matter, in various system configurations.  The JPS Aluminata AC cord is one of those very rare and in my experience the only component I have found improves every system on every component I have installed it.  The evaluations I spoke of above were all done with v2 of the R9SE amps.  I have not had the time yet for detailed evaluation of the v3 iteration of the R9SE.  But what I can say with absolute confidence is you have not heard your amps until you?ve heard them, at least, with the JPS Aluminata AC cords.  Period!

Good listening,
Paul
P.A.U.L.
www.precisionaudioonline.com
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: nuforce-casey on 8 Nov 2009, 09:44 pm
Deleted
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: nuforce-casey on 8 Nov 2009, 09:45 pm

Power in general and the R9SE:
It was amazing to hear the system come together over the course of this listening session.  I cannot express the importance of keeping, at least transistor, components on all the time.  Interestingly, my tube gear does not exhibit the dramatic transformation I heard with the 9?s.  Generally, I find the LAMM, Artemis and Music Reference sound right in less than an hour.  Once fully broken in of course.

I think this has more to do with the power cord and speaker cables used rather than the Ref9 in general.   What takes shape during the power-on is that the dielectrics slowly re-orientates/polarizes.   WIth thicker dielectric, they simply takes longer to fully polarizes.   We used regular factory AC cords and Nuforce Focused Field, and I can hear the sound changes within 1 track (the P9 and CDP are always left on).  There are also no big reservoir capacitors in Nuforce products, unlike regular Class A amps (with capacitors as large as coke cans) to charge up.

Casey
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 9 Nov 2009, 04:24 am
With out a doubt in my case using a Pure Power 2000 re generator was the single best add on improvement to my Nuforce amps and system.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: neutralos on 9 Nov 2009, 11:59 am
... to make it short what I had written yet in a separate thread:

Not sure if I passed the 100 hours mark. The V3 still plays better and better.
More relaxed, open and balanced. And this 3 D imaging behind the speakers ... great, detailed and smooth sounding. How this amp could perform when fit out with the optimal cables and AC filters ?aa
Step for step ... I cannot stand much experiences in a short time  :wink:

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 9 Nov 2009, 12:46 pm
neutralos dont you just love this hobby. when a company like nuforce comes along and backs up there designs with inexpensive upgrades and bring ear opening improvements you have to wonder what the other manufactures are doing. I m in a holding pattern but from what i ve read so far here on this thread v 3 is going to be something very special. starting with stock ref 9 se and v2 were large step ups in sound cant wait to hear the next step up. keep us up to date with your thoughts.
mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: paularthur on 10 Nov 2009, 11:54 pm

Power in general and the R9SE:
It was amazing to hear the system come together over the course of this listening session.  I cannot express the importance of keeping, at least transistor, components on all the time.  Interestingly, my tube gear does not exhibit the dramatic transformation I heard with the 9?s.  Generally, I find the LAMM, Artemis and Music Reference sound right in less than an hour.  Once fully broken in of course.

I think this has more to do with the power cord and speaker cables used rather than the Ref9 in general.   What takes shape during the power-on is that the dielectrics slowly re-orientates/polarizes.   WIth thicker dielectric, they simply takes longer to fully polarizes.   We used regular factory AC cords and Nuforce Focused Field, and I can hear the sound changes within 1 track (the P9 and CDP are always left on).  There are also no big reservoir capacitors in Nuforce products, unlike regular Class A amps (with capacitors as large as coke cans) to charge up.

Casey

Casey presented an explanation as to why I heard what I had reported.  In retrospect I realized my comments were actually for the entire system going through warm-up.  This caused me to think about the entirety of the system as I described what I heard.  I concluded there were many things I had not taken into account with regard to my comment on the 9?s need for a long warm-up.

I have now revisited this and have come to the most unbiased conclusion I am capable.  Let me set the stage.  I left all electronics on and playing for no less than 24 hours except for the amps and the Lamm pre-amp.  I fired up the Lamm three hours prior to auditioning the system but left the amps off.  My hopes were to take all the other components out of the warm up process.  Let me also preface with the system in which the evaluation took place:

The material was Loreena McKennitt Nights from the Alhambra.  A live recording at this venue in Spain.  All components have had no less than 250 hours and some considerably more break in time.  The source was the MSB Platinum Reference CD III Station with Purist Audio Design (PAD) Aqueous Anniversary AC cord and PAD Proteus Provectus single ended interconnect.  The Lamm LL2 served as the pre-amp.  It has the PAD Purist Anniversary AC cord and JPS Labs Aluminata interconnects.  Power amps are the Nu Force RSEv3 with JPS Labs Aluminata AC cords.  All electronics s are powered by a PS Audio Power Plant Premiere with a JPS Labs Aluminata AC power cord into a brand new generic wall outlet.  Speakers are supplied by PAD Proteus Provectus bi-wire cable to the Analysis Reference external X-over to which the Analysis Audio Omega Reference full range ribbon speakers are connected by Analysis Audio pure silver jumpers.

Initial impression:  The system was quite constrained in all dimensions.  In particular, it sounded as if I were listening with the performers at the end of a long tunnel.  Not reverberant but an image with the corners shaved off the hall and two dimensional.  Instruments were merged together in their presentation across a flat horizontal field.  There was no ?air? or fine detail.  Frequency extremes were significantly truncated.  Loreena?s voice had a pasty quality without any depth and a noticeable suppression of accurate sibilance.

This continued slowly becoming somewhat more transparent at about the 30 minute mark.  By the end of disc one (55 minutes) bass was returning but still poorly articulated and her voice began to take on a more transparent quality though lacking in body.  Sibilance had a much more real character.

Transparency continued to develop the image but there was a clear lack of depth and the midrange continued to be lacking in body across all the instruments and voice.  By the end of the second playing of disc one (about 1 ? hours of play time) bass had substantially returned, was well defined and the hall had gained a more lifelike perspective.  It now had edges but three dimensionality was still lacking.

About 1/3 into the third playing of the disc (approximately 2 hours) her voice had gained much of its sonority, the hall was becoming quite clear and instrumentation began to be easily identified in space and time.  Individual lines of the intricately woven instrumentation was becoming obvious but still lacking in the three dimensionality I know this system is capable of.

By the end of the disc and then starting over through the first few songs the hall had become large and was now separated from the speakers.  Loreena?s voice had a quality of a woman before you.  The instrumentation was alive and vibrant.  At this point I left the room.

I returned as the forth playing began (about three and half hours of continuous play now).  The system had returned to its pinnacle.  The players were clearly described in space and the instruments had body and texture.  The hall was laid out clearly before me in height, depth and width.  This is a truly exciting performance and when the system is right I?m swept up in the vibrancy of the sound and exhilaration of the performance.  It took about three hours or so to achieve this. 

I cannot say if it is the speaker cables or AC cord as suggested.  There is no way to test this and turn the amps off.  But, if so, it remains the case that a warm-up is certainly warranted whatever the ?actual? reason.  I conclude and reiterate, leave the amps and everything else, except tube gear, on for the best sound.

Good listening,
Paul
P.A.U.L
www.precisionaudioonline.com
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 11 Nov 2009, 02:41 pm
If you leave everything warm up and then try listening again the next day, does it make any difference?
Another variable could be a cold room and may be the speaker needs warming up?
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: mcullinan on 11 Nov 2009, 03:27 pm
Are there tubes in your system? It takes mine about a half hour before sounding its best.  Im sure after upgrading the new board takes a few weeks of regular playing to break in. Mine are in for an upgrade so I should have some opinions soon.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: paularthur on 11 Nov 2009, 04:12 pm
Jason, hello!  And Casey as well!

It is certainly possible the speaker needs warming but they are ribbon/magnetic planers.  With their extremely low mass I doubt that is a significant factor.  As for the room temp. I have experienced this in all seasons including blistering summer months.  And one other observation: Casey mentioned he performed his evaluation with stock AC power cords.   Irrespective of interconnects, this is the single most important upgrade one can perform with the R9SE amps.  With the right AC cord I will confidently insert this amp into any good system in comparison to amps costing three to four times its moaderate $5000 price tag.  In a system, synergistically assembled, it will consistently walk away the winner in nearly everything that is important for producing a live experience in the home environment.   I wouldn?t dream of this with the stock AC cords.

Did it change some time later?  Maybe the next day?  Actually I had intended to add a follow up.  After writing this evaluation, which took nearly an hour, I went back up to the listening room and guess what?  The system had improved yet again.  It now had the see through, whole cloth quality I most prize in this system and to which I attribute much to the Nu Force R9SE amps.  After all, I use them in my $100,000 plus Reference system!   There was now palpability to the ensemble.  Honestly, it brings tears to my eyes to listen to a performance of this caliper and the stories told in songs like Loreena McKennitt?s with this level of reproduction.  The entire system had been playing continuously now for well over 4 hours.  As before, when listening to Swan Lake, there was a subtle but very significant change in the rendering of the gestalt that occurred sometime after the four hour mark.

As for my experience with equipment warm up; this is consistent over time, in different room installations, at any time of year and with all components.  Some require longer time than others, as I noted before, but virtually nothing I?ve heard in a well designed audio system sounds right immediately after turn on.  I stand by my conclusion and invite others to spend the time to discover when their system gels and report back.  I must stress, the level of change can be dramatically, more or less, apparent depending on how well the system has been synergistically assembled.  The better the synergy of all the components, i.e.  electronics?, all the cables, AC supply, etc., the more real the sound field created  and the easier to identify changes over time as well as when substituting other components for that matter.  And let?s not forget about room interactions.  Remember, lower volumes will excite nodes to a lesser extent and therefore give a better picture of the system.

And on a side note:  ?Synergy?.  When done with a keen ear, a good sense of reality and with the ego placed far away, a system of modest cost can be assembled to reproduce a stunning experience of a live event.  Ah but the trick, however, is to listen without prejudice.  I often have customer?s bring a significant, or not so significant other, when auditioning equipment.  Especially cables.  It can be both hard to justify their relative expense as well as the opposite expectation of ?more expensive is necessarily better?.  I have rarely found this to be true.  An uninterested individual, the ?other? will give a much more accurate report of the differences in components as they are not invested in the process or equipment.  This does not guarantee accuracy or compatibility but it offers a relatively unbiased window into the effective changes.  Something to think about when making a component decision.

Well that?s it for now!

Good listening,
Paul
P.A.U.L.
www.precisionaudioonline.com
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: twist22 on 12 Nov 2009, 11:56 am
Jason,
If we are upgrading from the V2SE to V3 SE does the upgrade come with the new SE front plate or is it similar to the existing flatter front plates ?
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: mcullinan on 12 Nov 2009, 01:12 pm
On the site it says you get the new faceplate.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: paularthur on 12 Nov 2009, 02:26 pm
Mike,

You do get a new faceplate with RSEv3 emblazoned in red on it but not the new Stealth faceplate.  It is availbel but quite expensive.

It is very cool looking but your system's allocated money can be much more wisely spent, in my humble opinion.

Good listening,
Paul
P.A.U.L.
www.precisionaudioonline.com
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 13 Nov 2009, 06:45 am
We said new faceplate but didn't say "different styling" face plate.
The stealth looking face plate is slightly taller and require different mounting mechanism.
So, the entire chassis has to be replaced. Whoa! That would mean a complete replacement!!!
It is the same as selling your old amp and go buy a new one.

Spend the extra $ on a set of Magic Cube. You know we have money back guarantee.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 18 Nov 2009, 01:47 pm
My amps arrived yesterday along with some of Caseys ICs and speaker cables. Got all wired and playing, right out of the box i like what i am hearing. A nice wide stage with depth. Very listenable in fact i was up late spinning records. Will post more after the 100 hr mark.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 18 Nov 2009, 08:06 pm
My Ia-7 v3 arrived 3 weeks ago and I am right now having it burned in. So far I find the sound mellow and the top end seems to roll of a bit (compared to IA-7 v2). I start to miss the high resolution of my IA-7 v2. The problem is, however, that the IA-7 v2 I have was a second hand one and the previous owner had them run in before passing it to me, so I never know how it sounded when it was new too. This moment is the first time I experience with a brand new Nuforce amp (brand new board anyway). Will the burn in make a hugh difference in the top end?

Now I guess my set is into its 16 hours or so. :duh:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 19 Nov 2009, 12:15 pm
IA7V3 has two big cap and will take longer time to break-in than 9V3SE.  Is this a new IA7V3 or upgraded from V2?
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 19 Nov 2009, 01:24 pm
IA7V3 has two big cap and will take longer time to break-in than 9V3SE.  Is this a new IA7V3 or upgraded from V2?

I sent my ia-7 v2 for upgrade, but i think they returned a brand new IA-7 v3. I am  happy about this. But is this why it will take longer time to burn in? At this moment it does not sound anywhere near the IA-7 v2 before the transplant.  :roll: :roll:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: nuforce-casey on 19 Nov 2009, 11:01 pm
I sent my ia-7 v2 for upgrade, but i think they returned a brand new IA-7 v3. I am  happy about this. But is this why it will take longer time to burn in? At this moment it does not sound anywhere near the IA-7 v2 before the transplant.  :roll: :roll:

How many hours on the IA7V3?

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 20 Nov 2009, 04:20 am
now only about 12-16 hours since it has arrived.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: nuforce-casey on 21 Nov 2009, 12:16 am
First non-official review of V3 by Mike Silverton:

http://www.stereotimes.com/comRN112009.shtml (http://www.stereotimes.com/comRN112009.shtml)

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 21 Nov 2009, 05:01 pm
Mike does not reveal his pre amp i wonder if its a tubed unit. He also does not list how many hours before his findings. I m approaching the 50 hrs mark and the first impression i posted above, a wide deep soundstage has now included very firm taunt bass. The mid and upper regions have not changed hardly, there sounds are very warm. The speed and super black back ground are very present. With my breaking in of Caseys Focused Field ICs and speaker cables also they could be playing a part in what i m hearing. Like in the first hours i can listen for long periods fully enjoy the music and get a good handle on the changes heard.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: neutralos on 22 Nov 2009, 02:38 pm
I start to miss the high resolution of my IA-7 v2. The problem is, however, that the IA-7 v2 I have was a second hand one and the previous owner had them run in before passing it to me, so I never know how it sounded when it was new too.



Hi Welborne, don?t understand me wrong and I think I am allowed to evaluate you a bit,
you seem to me a bit unpatient regarding sucess in audio experiences.

Don?t hurry please. I found in 10 hours yet that this new board is more mellow and better tuned in all high end disciplines than the V2. And the sibilances appear at both boards if feeded with bad
CD recordings. Take for example the "essential" CD from Yello und you will get into highend heaven.
Punch, control, rhythm, details, 3-D soundstage and without any distortion at any vol. levels.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=23957)

Or let me tell you about another new expericence with this board and believe me you will find and discover many new things:

I listened to an ordinary mp3 file ("menater" from hall & oates). In the end of track you listen to
saxophon solo in the left area. This time the solo was split into a foreground and a background appearing which flows into the wide deep, drops and dissapears from the soundstage. I cannot remember me that I listened to this track in any time with any equipment like that.
The whole mp3 CD sounded to me overall more fluid and balanced than with the V2.

So give them a bit more time or if possible for you: try another speakers (which are lower sensitivity). Don?t want to say that yours are bad ...
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 22 Nov 2009, 05:59 pm
okay i will give it a try.

Is it safe to leave the nuforce ia-7 v3 on for a continous period of 24 hours, or shall I always switch "off" the amp by the switch at the back of the amp, or just press "off" on the remote control? I want to speed up the burn in period as I have been busy at work and did not have much time to listen to my amp for long hours each time like before. This really makes the burn in process taking longer than it should be...
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: JayDoubleU on 22 Nov 2009, 08:36 pm
You can leave your Nuforce Amp on at all times. My R9SE V2's are on 24 hours, 7 days  a week, because they simply sound better than immediately after switching them on. Burning-in can be done very fast if you leave them repeating the same cd over and over at relatively low volumes, even when you're not at home. After my V2-upgrade it only took me four days before enjoying the wonderful sonics of the upgraded amps. I plan to repeat the same routine soon after upgrading to V3!

Happy listening!
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 22 Nov 2009, 09:22 pm
An excellent cd for breakin is STS digital Burn-In CD cat #611138. Since 05 i havent turned of my ref 9s off, its is wise to have a spike type power unit for piece of mind.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: eeh on 23 Nov 2009, 02:34 am
But is it safe to leave the amp on with the pre-amp turned off? (I have a tube pre-amp).

Thanks,
E.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 23 Nov 2009, 04:14 am
E i use a tubed pre amp also. Its not a problem to leave your Nuforce amps turned on. 4 years now and 3 upgrades later i m still leaving my Ref 9s on. Have a good one.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 23 Nov 2009, 05:00 am
I think a key in Nuforce amps for better sound is keeping them on, never cut them off!!
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: GBB on 23 Nov 2009, 05:07 am
I just had my Ref 8 mono blocks upgraded to V3.  For a very reasonable price, Nuforce upgraded both the power supply and the amp boards.  I got them back last Monday and have been breaking them in ever since.  They're obviously a big step up from my gen 1 amps.  I wondered if the upgrade would make them less sensitive to the quality of the power but the V3 amps still respond well to power conditioning.  I use an Audience power conditioner followed by a large isolation transformer.  That combination makes the amps really sing.
I'm curious to hear what other people use in terms of power cords or power conditioning.

With regard to leaving the amps on all the time, I agree that's a good idea.  If you're using a tube preamp, it's advisable to turn the amps off briefly when you power down the preamp and when you power it up since there can be some nasty transients from the preamp during power on/off.

---Gary
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 23 Nov 2009, 10:28 pm
GBB i agree that using wall power only does not give all that these super fine amps can deliver. I ve used a dedicated line, BPT 2, Brick Wall, and now i m using a PurePower 2000 regenerator and this is hands down a step up compared to the others. I ve used Lessloss, PS Audio, stock, and now its Black Sand Violets for PCs.
I dont have any problems turning off my tubed Pre Amp with my Ref 9s on. If you mention it there must be others that do. Have a good one.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 24 Nov 2009, 09:11 am
okay, now I have put my ia-7 v3 at work for continous 24 hours a day for the next 3 days. I feed it with some nice Nat King Cole at low volume. Let's see.

 :green: :green:

I found this on google

http://partner.nuforce.com/wp-content/uploads/manual/Nuforce%20V2%20and%20V3%20board%20upgrade%20-%2010-26-09.pdf

looks like some v3 installation guideline or something like that.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 24 Nov 2009, 12:03 pm
Quote
I just had my Ref 8 mono blocks upgraded to V3.

 :thumb:  After 4 years we can still upgrade a discontinued product to the latest and greatest technology.  No other high-end company can beat that.   :lol:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Kenobi on 24 Nov 2009, 03:28 pm
Hi all,

Here's an initial impression of the Ref 9V3SE from Mike Siverton:

http://www.stereotimes.com/comRN112009.shtml

A follow-up will soon follow.

Enjoy,

Kenobi
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: mcullinan on 25 Nov 2009, 02:36 am
Just received my 9SEv3s after being upgraded... Sound is good right out of the box.  Initial impressions are a more cohesive soundscape top to bottom. Taller, wider and deeper soundstage. CAnt wait until they really break in and I will give a review.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: fischio on 1 Dec 2009, 01:52 pm
Question: I have upgraded from Ref 8 to ref 8 V3 In Italy (Mad for Music), what's the new RMS Power of the amplifier?

Thank you,
Franco
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: nuforce-casey on 1 Dec 2009, 06:33 pm
Question: I have upgraded from Ref 8 to ref 8 V3 In Italy (Mad for Music), what's the new RMS Power of the amplifier?

Thank you,
Franco
The RMS power will be around 160W at 8 ohm, 200W at 4 ohm (since the Re8 V3 power supply is limited to 200W).

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 2 Dec 2009, 11:55 pm
Just a quick post after 130 hrs things are getting very very good. Ultra solid bass the kind that you feel, low and deep and detailed. My concern so far the mid range has softened up and is delivering very real sounding voice and instruments. The upper spectrum has what i notice the most sibilance is so much better along with air and a real holographic presentation. The super quiet background along with a stage that is deep and with a good vinyl lp extends well past the outsides of my speakers, i have a wall of sound. At this point i could not be any happier with what i m hearing and i believe things will get better as the 200 hr mark approaches.  :thumb:
 Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: mcullinan on 3 Dec 2009, 12:57 am
I would agree/add that the V3s have vastly improved sound staging. Deep & wide with detail and texture in the mids that reach out and touch you. Lower mids and bass detail is also better. More defined, taught with more punch. Also there is a nice coherence from top to bottom. Havent noticed much difference with the highs... they are still breaking in. Probably 65 hours on them now. Nice!
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 3 Dec 2009, 03:32 am
hi all,

does the high end spectrum improve with more air and micro-details over the burn in period? At this stage (70 hours mark), it still sounds much more mellow than the v2, it could just be my system's sound.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 3 Dec 2009, 08:17 am
I think you're the one who is using active crossover with another non nuforce amp driving the bass. Try changing your system to compare.  Just for the sake of comparison, use your IA-7V3 to drive the bass too.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 3 Dec 2009, 08:42 am
hi jason,

thanks for the tips, i will try but hard when i only have one Nuforce ( :P ), i wish i own more than one set of Nuforce. I will explore with a better power cord and give it more burn in. I listened to it last night and when I finished, i left the amp on playing christmas baroque on repeat mode. let it run in for another 50 hours to reach the 110 hours mark and see how things go.

Nuforce is the only amp that will make me give up tubes...I am selling all my NOS tubes to friends...:0
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 4 Dec 2009, 12:12 am
Welborne in my case with 125 hrs going by things started opening up and have continued since like i mentioned with the addition of Caseys cables i m dealing with two things that are contributing to what i m hearing. You mention micro detail yes and you betcha. Air, holographic presentation and as my wife likes to say how do you get surround sound from 2 speakers. The best improvement to my ears for now is the timber of voice and instruments. Enjoy the ride and keep us posted.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 4 Dec 2009, 05:06 am
yeah, no problem. I listened to it last night and it seems it has opened up a bit , i am not sure, it may be subtle at this stage. So when I left the room, I put in the XLO burn in disc and repeat the "burn in track" in my cdp for another 48 hours, let's see.

Thanks for the advice. I have been googling about break in lately, and i was amazed that some highend gears such as Dartzeel and ASR Emitter even suggest break in time of at least 200 hours....I have not used SS amps for so many years as I have been living with NOS triode, SE DHT etc for the last decade. A bit lacking in patience on my part..  :green:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 4 Dec 2009, 01:12 pm
Hey you know what they say Good Things Come to Those That Wait. And from what i m hearing it will be will worth the wait. Have a good one and enjoy the music
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: nuforce-casey on 5 Dec 2009, 07:08 am
http://www.avguide.com/blog/first-listen-nuforce-reference-9-v3-special-edition-monoblock-amplifiers (http://www.avguide.com/blog/first-listen-nuforce-reference-9-v3-special-edition-monoblock-amplifiers)

Chris Martens blog talked about his initial impression with the V3s.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 5 Dec 2009, 05:27 pm
I tried posting this on Chris's blog and agree with his early findings and he has a fun music time ahead listening to what breakin will deliver.

You have hit it on the head with your early findings i had very similar. I ve been a Nuforce user since the original Ref 9 and used the upgrade route since. What a breath of fresh air Casey, Jason and Nuforce have brought to the high end community with there products and upgrades. I now have over 150 hrs on my V3 SEs along with Caseys RCA IC and Speaker cables. I don t like breaking in 2 different components at one time. I was anxious and wanted to save some time. I believe the wire needs more time than the amps. After last nights long and revealing music session all that you have mentioned superb bass, life like mids voice and instruments, upper end sounds clear and clean. A soundstage thats very real with depth and the amazing amount of sound that comes from the outside of my speakers a virtual wall of sound. And as you mention the space between sounds is real and present with those sounds so imaged. Micro detail is off the charts. For me its the ability of these amps and possibly the wire to have timber that is approaching real live sound as musicians playing in the room with you. I tried using P 9 and had one in my system for quite a while. I thought the sound was on the some what sterile side and changed to a tubed preamp and have not looked back. I also use vinyl playback as my reference for serious music listening. I believe these things contribute to that warm tubby sound i have in my system. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts as your burn in continues. Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Arnoldhasmail on 6 Dec 2009, 05:14 am
I'm a 9sev2 owner that plans to take the leap to v3se...What's the wait time now?  Does the faceplate get replaced with another flat style plate that won't match the new 9v3se amps being sold?  Doesn't fare well for resale... :(
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 6 Dec 2009, 06:03 pm
Arnoldhasmail i can answer one of your questions no you dont get the new type face plate with the upgrade. You get a new front plate though like the original with the V3 logo on it. You can spend extra cash and request the new front plate if you like. Looks dont mean a thing its the sound and V3 will take you further into the music than V2. Have a good one and enjoy the music. Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 6 Dec 2009, 07:17 pm
i listened to mine a bit again today...and now still burning it in...... :roll: :roll: :roll:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: nuforce-casey on 6 Dec 2009, 09:29 pm
Audiogon has an interesting thread with informative feedback from several V3 users:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1257789913 (http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1257789913)
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 7 Dec 2009, 01:21 pm
First off i would like to let all know that i tried to get the beachbum name at Audogon but it was taken so i m stltrains there for those interested heres another Audiogon link for V3 upgrade. Mike http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1258423116
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: mcullinan on 7 Dec 2009, 05:44 pm
Nice review at Six Moons:
http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/nuforce12/v3.html (http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/nuforce12/v3.html)
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 7 Dec 2009, 07:23 pm
Nice review at Six Moons:
http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/nuforce12/v3.html (http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/nuforce12/v3.html)

Mr, Kramer's experience with his new v3 seems to echo mine,especially the roller coaster bit...Mine is around its 100 hours mark.....I listened, and I think i need to push it to post 150 hours mark with a few more days of xlo burn in cd in the spinning.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 8 Dec 2009, 02:16 am
Ditto to my findings by Mr Kramer. Yes i did not mention the shrill in the mid range till now. I did email John with that not so good news at the time. For me crossing the 130 hr mark was the time sound really became better and smoothed out and as time went on even better. A fine review by a pro and it makes me feel better knowing my results mirror his. Anyone on the fence about upgrading if you want more from your system go for it.

A question for Jason dont know if another upgrade will become available for Ref 9 but if it does can you send out the board like was done with Mr Kramer for us in the USA. For guys like me who are dieing with out music it would be a real time saver.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: nuforce-casey on 8 Dec 2009, 04:49 am

A question for Jason dont know if another upgrade will become available for Ref 9 but if it does can you send out the board like was done with Mr Kramer for us in the USA. For guys like me who are dieing with out music it would be a real time saver.
Mike
The reason we do the upgrade instead of sending the boards:

1.  We use very good soldering equipment
2.  We test the amp after it's being upgraded to ensure performance.

That's why we advice our customers to seek local installation services with their respective Nuforce agents, so that the upgrades are done professionally.

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 8 Dec 2009, 05:40 am
I have to agree with Casey because my v3 upgrade came back with new packing, new volume knobs and a test result data sheet full of numbers. Nice job :thumb:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 8 Dec 2009, 01:28 pm
Welborne aint it nice to get some lagniappe.

Jason i understand and no complaints i could not be any happier with the latest upgrade.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 10 Dec 2009, 06:22 pm
my 9V2SE's are off to have the upgrade to V3SE. I have the P9 preamp and have really enjoyed the set up. From what i have read it sounds like the burn in time is a bit more extended from the V2SEs. They should be back by mid week next week and I can wait to get them humming.

Seems like concensus is about 130 hrs of burn in. I will report back on the journey. I enjoy reading the others experiences so those with stories keep them coming.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: neutralos on 11 Dec 2009, 04:11 pm
Nice review at Six Moons:
http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/nuforce12/v3.html (http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/nuforce12/v3.html)

finally it is published ...was looking forward to read it as pronounced weeks ago.
 
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 13 Dec 2009, 11:02 am
Hi guys, I want to give an update, an important one indeed....

It has been a while since I made some positive comments about the Nuforce V3. I have been going through a head-spinning experience, pretty much like that of Edgar's. I have exchanged many messages with Jason-Nuforce and his agent in Hong Kong, expressing the hugh dissapointment I had going from V2 (i was very happy, so i was hoping to get happier with upgrade) to V3 in my Ia-7...I have been bothering these gentlemen but they both have been very patient and supportive.

Reading the several very positive feedback from this forum and contrast that to what I was hearing made me feel my ears had problem. I did not like the new V3 at all, so much that I wanted to go back to V2 and tried to forget making any upgrade.

You just could not believe Nuforce amp could sound so slow, sluggish, so much rolling off from the top end, all the musical nuances and spatial information were missing, and for a while I started to wonder if my tweeters are malfunctioning. I don't like slow and mellow sound, and my Nuforce in its early hours sound like a good push-pull tube amp with a lot of negative feedback added, if you know what I mean....

....But wait....

A number of people on this forum has sent me messages, asking me to give it more time. I haev never been a true believer of "breaking-in", and if this matter does exist, I were  not able to hear much difference in the past. And I haev always scored good second hand gears that were well broken in before reaching my hands. well, I have tried my best to break in the Nuforce v3 boards by leaving it on for a few days continously playing some music in repeat mode and left the room. When it reached around 80 hours I listened to it again with some positive expectation, thinking "should be quite enough to make a change", but I was presented with further disappointment, and at this point I made further communicatino with a few people and Jason. Everything sounded compressed, stressed, top end is extremelhy rolled off, sounding NOTHING like V2, and could possibilty the worst sounding amp I have owned. I left the room, and the amp on for another few days playing repeatedly the XLO burn in track, going for my last hope.

I returned to my listening room with negative expectation. Now the amp has reached 160 hours or a bit more. I did not care about the exact 150 hours mark, I was desparate to hear what the v3 hype was about.

WOW........................!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everything that were missing are now BACk, BACK, BACK. Transparency, transience, and most important of all, the micro details and instrument textures which I treasured so much with the V2. Music comes alive again. The slightly edgy top end of the v2 was gone, and in v3, it changed from too mellow, mushy, rolled-off to now sparkling, crystalline and "just right".

Image depth is pushed further into the wall behing the speakers as if the wall was not there. Treble quality is better than v2 because the somtimes "too much high" sensation isn't there anymore. Everything is sounding so "crunchy" now (hope you understand what i mean as I run out of words).

My goodness, really. And really, 150 hours or more is really needed, and don't give up the hope. i did not believe it, and I did not want to believe it because I thought such well measured gear should sound right out of box and breaking in should make some but not a hugh difference. How wrong I was.


Now I would venture into the game of powercord rolling. i just scored a voodoo powercord tonight and will update here.

Thanks Jason for your patience. I am very happy now.  But I do think you should change the recommended hours of burn-in from 75 to 150 hours in your user manual and website. It is necessary. A mistake for anyone to judge the amp right out of the box.

 :green: :green: :green:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: WerTicus on 13 Dec 2009, 11:45 am
maybe they should just run the amps at the factory first :)
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 13 Dec 2009, 02:01 pm
At the risk of asking what could be percieved as a stupid question ...... during the burn in time does the volume (how hard you push the amp) matter???? or is it a matter of keeping some electrons flowing thru the system. My V3's will be back Wednesday and I have a couple of weeks off work over the holidays and I am really looking forward to some serious listening time.

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 13 Dec 2009, 06:34 pm
David i can tell you how i did it running the STS burn in cd while at work at a good volume. Then at home listening to music at different levels. I enjoyed the burn in process and now enjoying the music.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 13 Dec 2009, 07:26 pm
maybe they should just run the amps at the factory first :)
I dont think thats a good idea. The main reason is not having your amps for the time needed and in my case well into over 200 hrs changes are still happening though not at a dramatic level, that could be a long time. The other reason i am enjoying the process of listening to the changes. Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 13 Dec 2009, 07:38 pm
I can't wait to get mine back, it will not take me long to get 2 to 3 hundred hours! :drool:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 22 Dec 2009, 04:28 pm
UPS just dropped off the upgraded 9V2Ses to V3. It is very cold in the UK and the amps were very cold as well. I am leaving them in a warm room for an hr or so before I hook them up. Audio Affair in the UK performed the upgrade (it is where I purchased them from , along with the P9), excellent service from Dr Hugh and his team. I plan to run them non stop for the next few days and will let you know how it progresses. Just in time for christmas listening :D
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: John Casler on 22 Dec 2009, 04:59 pm
Finally got a chance to hear the REF9SE V3 in one of my clients systems on Sunday.

Since he and I have virtually the same system (speakers and components) he has always strived to achieve the sound I have in my room.

With his new acoustic treatments and V3 upgrade, he has (I have to admit) surpassed what my system will do.

I don't like to use the term "smooth" in describing a system but his system still had "all" the detail and resolution, but was just smooth and natural.

The second and most incredible sonic, was the DEPTH.  It was astounding.

Additionally, I recall listening to his system in the past and having to move a little from side to side, to get the center imaging and soundstage.

Now I sat down on the couch, in the center, and BAM!!! the image and soundstage was locked into place with the singer in a lifesized 3-D image  standing a few feet behind the speakers.

Needless to say, I was very impressed and to a large part the V3 was responsible.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 23 Dec 2009, 01:30 pm
Hey John V3 is a huge jump for getting deeper into the music. You use the term smooth but i believe its control. On loud passages the ability to reproduce the sound naturally is down right awesome. All of the other descriptions you mention are right on for sure. I cant get away from my stereo these days playing LP after LP.
Hope CES is a big success, one of these days i hope to be in that number.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 23 Dec 2009, 02:17 pm
I've got about 15 hrs on the amps and a similar expereice to the other posts. Much more crisp and punchy base right out of the box. Highs are still very muted and muddy, tough to tell about mid range at this stage. The burn in continues ............

Listening to Jethro Tull .... Skating Away on the thin ice
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: MichaelHiFi on 23 Dec 2009, 04:59 pm
That's funny, I was listening to Jethro Tull Skating on the thin ice last night and it was sounding great on my SEV2's.

I'm in the queue for the upgrade - can't wait. My system seems so different from most folks here, except for one gentleman's..

After reading so many posts I'm still wondering about my "power conditioning" scheme and how good or bad it is. But that's another thread. I'm thinking now I should try Jason's power cables against mine before the upgrade happens.  :?
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 23 Dec 2009, 09:42 pm
Michael,

Hello, What is your speaker? :D
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 24 Dec 2009, 09:28 am
Michael
Jethro Tull Skating was one of my favourite demo songs it is just at this stage the V3's fall short of the V2's. I have let them run non stop and will do some more listening today. Bass is much deeper/more punch, mids still good but hoping for more zip. I run a Transporter (flac) to a Nuforce P9 to the V3s. Speakers need upgrading but I have a small living room. I have the B&W CM7s and would like to move to either Usher BE10s or B&W 802D's when I get a larger room (I rent)
I will post again later today

currently listening to War - the world is a getto
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: John Casler on 24 Dec 2009, 07:55 pm
I'm thinking now I should try Jason's power cables against mine before the upgrade happens.  :?

Jason's Power Cables??

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 29 Dec 2009, 02:25 pm
between 130 and 140 hrs on the V3's...... getting better but still think I have a way to go. Bass is still the really strong point, details are there but still feel that the uppper end is not ringing out like it used to. I may have gotten accustom to a more "shrill" high end and what I am hearing now is a more balanced sound. Soundstage is much improved. It is very difficult not have a set of V2SEs to hook up to compare it to and I know my ear has no memory. I will keep them running

listening to Shawn Mullins Lulaby
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 29 Dec 2009, 05:17 pm
between 130 and 140 hrs on the V3's...... getting better but still think I have a way to go. Bass is still the really strong point, details are there but still feel that the uppper end is not ringing out like it used to. I may have gotten accustom to a more "shrill" high end and what I am hearing now is a more balanced sound. Soundstage is much improved. It is very difficult not have a set of V2SEs to hook up to compare it to and I know my ear has no memory. I will keep them running

listening to Shawn Mullins Lulaby

David, I understand exactly what you are feeling, especially when you said " the upper end is not ringing out like it used to..." as that was the main part I was missing my v2 during the breaking in period.  I was thinking the same thing whether I was hearing too much high before and the v3 is in fact more balanced...I did not have a v2 to compare my v3 against, and i did change a few things trying to improve the sound that other people here told me to do, above all, a better power cord. Now I am happy with the sound of the v3 after 160 hours (now into its 200 hrs I think). Not sure if my ears are broken in or the amp, so please update us as I am watching here.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 30 Dec 2009, 05:13 pm
More critical listening today. I think the "edgy highs" that I became used to in the V2s are gone. The treble is still there but the whole is more full bodied. Great soundstage but I do miss the zing of the highs. My wife likes the V3s better so maybe it is my ear. They do sound very good and my speakers are not great bass. The cymbals are still there but overall it is more coherent. I have ~150hrs on the V3s and am pleased but I think I may have reached a point of dimishing returns on the electronics part given my speakers.

Will keep them running tonight and give another test listen in the morning.

really liked the soundstage in Peter, Paul and Mary Blowin in the Wind. Now have It's a Beautiful Day ... White Bird on
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Arnoldhasmail on 1 Jan 2010, 07:47 pm
Hi David C...

Any additional insight after a couple of additional days of break-in?

thanks
Arnoldhasmail
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 2 Jan 2010, 10:23 am
At the risk of sounding like the other V3 owners .... they have finally really opened up and sound excellent. It is almost like having different gear once the hrs are on them. It took about 160 to 170 hrs and then I turned off the music for a while and returned to listen later. As others have noted the whole soundstage really opened up, very clear and articulate with a bass and upper bass that is second to none.

The highs are there and crisp/clear but still not as in the V2 but the overall sound is well worth the upgrade BUT you have to be patient. I will give them a critical listening this Sat afternoon with some favourites and will revert
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 2 Jan 2010, 11:54 am
".....The highs are ther and crisp/clear but still not as in the V2 but ......

I can't agree more. You are spot on describing my feeling.

Have you changed powe cord? That could make a big difference and could bring them to level..
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 2 Jan 2010, 04:17 pm
Welborne
tried to post back earlier so if this is a duplicate pls forgive. I do miss the crisp highs and at first I thought I had a tweeter issue but the wholeness of the sound and the soundstage is very good. What power cord is you go with as I have the stock cord?

Listening to Nina Simone "my baby just cares for me" ...great voice and piano.

It will be intesting to see if others have a similar issue with the top end
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 3 Jan 2010, 05:52 pm
I believe V 3 is more realistic in the upper end compared to V 2. After more than 300 hrs now V 3 brings a true sound to the mids and upper frequencies. V 2 i believe exaggerated the upper end and i can say that now after long hours with V 3. Those cymbals and other high frequency sounds are now not standing out they are present and let the rest of the music sound balanced with upper end sound. IMO. Happy New Year to you all
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 3 Jan 2010, 08:04 pm
What will REF 18 bring to the table?
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 4 Jan 2010, 12:43 am
Worldcat search this circle for more information on Ref 18.
For now Ref 9 SE V3 is most wonderful if you like to sit down in front of your speakers and listen to music for hours on end.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 4 Jan 2010, 11:35 am
Ref 18 is still being worked on and please don't keep asking. We will provide any preliminary info if we have anything to share. Right now we don't even know if it will be better than V3  :lol:
We haven't had a chance to put the prototype together.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: maligue on 5 Jan 2010, 10:26 am
I have been reading these posts with some consternation. A story of high hopes, fears of disappointment, virtually child-like innocence in the expectation of wonderous joys, etc. The hours counted, the bated breathe, as each of you who implemented the upgrade sits down to listen ... again. 'Will it be better today?'
One thing that strikes me about the posts and the very few extant reviews in the press about the V3 is the absence of considerations about the effects upgrading may have on system synergy and the related matter of psycho-acoustics, i.e., our experience of sound.
Presumably, the upgrade/modification will influence our experience of the sound quality coming from the source(s) as well as the all-important preamplification we use. In other words, it is not likely that in any system there is a constant against which the effects of such upgrades/mods can be 'objectively' assessed. Is is rather not the case that the 160 hrs many of the posts cite for critical break-in time are in effect the hours are brains require to 'process' the modified sound quality from the whole system we use?
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 5 Jan 2010, 02:13 pm
Maligue just like any change to a system differences will be made to the sound delivered to our ears. In the case of the change from V2 to V3 differences for better sound were made to my system. I ve gone the entire Ref 9 upgrade process. Each and everyone was a different and improved sound from my system to my ears.
The original Ref 9 brought a reasonable costing, low cost operating, fine sounding amp. SE brought to the table a reserve power supply for peaks in your favorite music and more detail. Then came along V2 that upgrade improved the upper frequency area from Ref 9 SE along with better bass response. Now to my memory these 2 upgrades delivered there completed breakin sound in a shorter amount of time. 
The upper frequency change that V2 brought to my ears was a little much in up front stand up sounds. Cymbals, bells, and other high frequency sounds were to present. V3 brought that anomaly back to a more life like live musical sound. Along with improvements to other areas mentioned above.
To my ears i didn't get adjusted to what i m hearing now from V3 because of hearing the amp over time. I m hearing better sound because V3 delivers it with a life like presentation above and beyond the past evolution of Ref 9. Why the longer breakin i dont know or care. For me a every day music listener getting better sound at a affordable cost is a no brainer.
And it is a better cost wise way to get improvements to the sound of a system by upgrading instead of moving to a new and more costly alternative. This is my opinion and i stand by it. Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 5 Jan 2010, 02:48 pm
Beachbum
I could not agree more with you and full support from here :thumb:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Arnoldhasmail on 5 Jan 2010, 07:10 pm
It seems that most people agree that the bottom end and mid range have been improved...sound stage...without a doubt...no one seems to disagree here.  My concern is the top end...I own the 9sev2's and do feel there is room for improvement and better coherency in the top end...and that seems to be what the v3 provides...but is it at the cost of extension???  I've found that my tube amps provided better balance AND extension on the top and would welcome that change in my v2's...

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 5 Jan 2010, 11:24 pm
David C anyone whos had these fine amps in there system knows there capabilities and the enjoyment they can bring to our ears.

Arnold like mentioned i found V 2 to most definitely improve on Ref 9 SE sound wise. But for me i heard high frequency sounds stand out some what unrealistically. Out of proportion with lower upper end and mid range sounds. This is one of the things i believe V 3 has over V 2. I  understand your concern because before my upgrade to V 3 even with my description above i had many hours of musical enjoyment with V 2 and all in all did not want to lose what sounded so good.
Now with V 3, basically i guess with over 300 plus hours of break in, V 3 has many musical delights over V 2. IMO All mentioned in threads here and else where. 
Good luck with your decision.
Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Arnoldhasmail on 6 Jan 2010, 12:08 am
Thanks!  I understand what your saying...and I do want the better balanced sound...but, do you find the amp to have less extension or more extension than the V2
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: mcullinan on 6 Jan 2010, 12:26 am
I believe they have the same extension. V2 just had a bump in the highs to give it perceived detail while the V3 does not. But they both go up to 20KHz.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Arnoldhasmail on 6 Jan 2010, 12:37 am
not really what I was asking...I'm not asking the frequency response...asking about perceived extension when listening.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 6 Jan 2010, 01:18 am
I have a idea Arnold contact Jason ask for a V 3 loner and then you can answer your question in your own home and with your own system. Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: maligue on 6 Jan 2010, 08:18 am
Following up on my previous post about upgrade expectations and with respect to 'Arnoldhasmail''s post: I have yet to go down the upgrade path for the Ref 9 V2 SE precisely because of a felictous experience with 'tube amps'. I recently mated a Prima Luna Prologue Three with the NuForce monos and discovered pretty much all I can reasonably expect from a two channel music system. A marriage made, well, not in heaven, but right here in my listening room. Both the Bryston BP26 and the Nuforce P-9 are enjoying a break from hard duty.
This was the motivation behind my thoughts about system synergy, on the one hand, and our experience of music, on the other. Each time a change in the system is made, upgrade or otherwise, reeducation of the ear - i.e. the brain - takes place. The question is whether sometimes, for aesthetic reasons, the education fails to take hold.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 6 Jan 2010, 01:09 pm
V3 is definitely better than V2 without making any sacrifice.  See the amp history here:
http://www.nuforce.com/hi/faq/faq-V-history.html (http://www.nuforce.com/hi/faq/faq-V-history.html)
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: mcullinan on 6 Jan 2010, 04:35 pm
There are important gains. Soundstage depth and size. Lower mid detail which was missing from V2. A unity to the presentation of the music.

Definitely worth it.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 6 Jan 2010, 05:19 pm
The new V3 is very good as mentioned in the previous threads and I agree that my ear has little memory and listening is a function of many factors. The fact of a need for a relatively long burn in puts further distance from a V2 comparision that is meaningful. I am very pleased with the upgrade but did wonder about tube pre amp users as it may have been perfect with the V2 which to my ear emphaised the high end but I wonder if with the V3 it a bit much of taking the egde off. Let me state I have never owned valve amps or pre amps
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: gammajo on 6 Jan 2010, 07:23 pm
I am in line for the V3 upgrade to my V2SeRef that I run with an Audio Horizons tubed pre. The tubed pre is wonderful but I think V2 could still using more finesse in the highs. I also found a great improvement with the V2 by using vibration control such as 5 lbs lead bag on top and Hyperion Magnetic Floaters on the bottom. Anyone else using vibration control?  Thanks for all teh posts helping me to decide on the upgrade
Joe
BTW I run with Northstar Transport and Cd and Von Schweikert VR4SR's
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: mcullinan on 6 Jan 2010, 07:45 pm
The new V3 is very good as mentioned in the previous threads and I agree that my ear has little memory and listening is a function of many factors. The fact of a need for a relatively long burn in puts further distance from a V2 comparision that is meaningful. I am very pleased with the upgrade but did wonder about tube pre amp users as it may have been perfect with the V2 which to my ear emphaised the high end but I wonder if with the V3 it a bit much of taking the egde off. Let me state I have never owned valve amps or pre amps
I would think that depends on the preamp. Tube preamps shouldnt limit the high frequencies, but perhaps some do.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 8 Jan 2010, 10:07 pm
Just received my V3's they don't sound that bad out of the box, sure they need to open up but boy do they sound good so far.   I hooked up the magic cubes as well before on V2's now on the V3's they make a nice upgrade as well.  Can't wait till everything is broken in I will keep you posted.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 9 Jan 2010, 01:29 am
I felt the same way worldcat right out of the box the sound is very listenable. enjoy the breakin period and let us know your thoughts. mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: mmakshak on 9 Jan 2010, 06:08 am
I used 4-inch Mapleshade amp stands on the 9v2, and they work well.  I also use Lessloss power cords.  They work fantastically(and Casey, I will bring these over for you to try, if you like.  Sorry I haven't gotten back with you on that.).  I should mention that I have dedicated lines from Whitlock(Audiogon).  I use vinyl exclusively now.  I have a question about V3. Do recordings sound more unique from each other than they did with V2?
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 9 Jan 2010, 01:46 pm
mmakshak
I think you will really enjoy the V3s. Mine took about 170 hr and now they have  rejuvenated my listening to music. I am courious about the Magic cube, I have read the Nuforce data on it and I am still not sure what it solves or improves. Do you have two of them in your system and how do you have them hooked up? Can you tell a difference with and without them?
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: gammajo on 9 Jan 2010, 02:44 pm
Also curious about the magic cubes
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 9 Jan 2010, 05:12 pm
I tried the magic cube with a pair V2's and the cube improved the imaging and micro details and clarity of the voices.  I am bi-wire at speakers to the cube and from amp to cube using the cable provided.  I have the Nuforce cables as well.  So far ever thing is nice, the V3's i have on now have not opened up but sound pretty good.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: LTMS on 11 Jan 2010, 02:22 pm
Hello, new to this forum and i have a question

I have two ref9V3 newly updated to V3 and one of the amps do not start properly, if everything is shut down, preamp and all the other things, the amp will make this sound like its going up and down in frequense, cant find the right word for it, i am from Sweden

If i then start the preamp, Onkyo 806 receiver, the amp will turn on with a big thump and then it works like it should, i think

If i dont turn on the preamp and shut the ref 9 off it sometimes do not start again, completely dead until i unplug the powercord and plug it in again and then it is the same story all over again, WHY?

Please bare with my english, by the way: The V3 sounds great when i manage to get it right

Thomas
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: mcullinan on 11 Jan 2010, 02:43 pm
I would take it back to where you got it updated. Sounds like there is an issue. Or contact Casey at Nuforce.
M
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: LTMS on 11 Jan 2010, 02:50 pm
Thanks for the answer, when they  did this upgrade they had it running for 24 hours and they should have heard this problem to?

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Caar on 11 Jan 2010, 02:55 pm
Maybe they were lucky on those 24 hours...
or
they didn't run the amps at all after modification...
I would bet on the last one.

After you have solved this problem - by sending back the mono - you'll be in possession of a great amplifier, indeed.

Carlos
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: maligue on 12 Jan 2010, 06:45 am
I want to check with persons who are more technically proficient than I am about the following. The input impedance of the V3 board appears to be 22 KOhms, whereas the V2 sports double that - 44 KOhms. I wonder why the reduction? A cursory review of specs for many amps shows that standard spec for input impedance is 100 Kohms!
For me this means the following ... I think. I run a tube preamp with the Ref 9 V2 SE monos. The former runs with a relatively high output impedance of 3.5 Kohms. It seems the link between preamp output and amp imput should be, at the least, 1:10, that is, for 3.5 I should mate to an amplifier with at least 35 KOhms. Lower than that ratio, treble rolloff, muddy bass, and other nasties.
Thus the maths speak for themselves. I should not upgrade to V3 should I wish to stick with the tube preamp ... or I should implement another preamp (for instance Nuforce's P-9).
Am I correct? Thanks
Edward
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: steve_sf on 12 Jan 2010, 07:41 am
You're right about the big input impedance reduction. Something to watch out for. I wish it had stayed at 44 KOhms. I use a passive preamp so I'm concerned the upgrades won't work in my system. I will try V3 demos at some point, though, to see if they're compatible with my system.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 12 Jan 2010, 10:24 pm
I have notice that the V3 doesn't have near much gain as did V2!!  So far it sounds very good, different from the V2.  I did make a lot of changes at once.  I have about 85 hours on my amps now it has been some getting use to some songs sound amazing others not as good.  I don't know if they need to be broken in much more or if they will.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 13 Jan 2010, 02:35 pm
I ve gone back to RCA instead of Balanced ICs between my Audio Horizons tubed 2.1 preamp and V3. The gain had to be turned well past the point i used with V2. You are correct maligue and like steve mentioned go the audition route first and see how V3 works with your current gear.
I totally enjoy the sound of V3 over V2 and happy with the upgrade but it may not be for all.

Maybe Cassy can step in and answer some of these concerns.

Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: gammajo on 13 Jan 2010, 03:14 pm
Beachbum - I have the AH 2.1 too. With the V2 and my speakers and room, for loud volume I used  10 o'clock with RCA and 11 o'clock with balanced. I prefer balanced for increased three dimensionality. What setting do you think I would need with the V3 to duplicate loudness?
Thanks, Joe
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 13 Jan 2010, 11:01 pm
Hey gammajo with v 2 playing classic rock and roll using balanced ics just past 12 was appx 95 db with higher peeks. with  v 3 i was at 2 and was not reaching 95 db. I believe i was loosing as maligue explained good sound. no doubt to my ears rca is the way to go with v 3 and 2.1.
i dont know why v 3 had to lower the input impedance so much i am hopping Casey will explain this concern that has shown itself at this point.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Caar on 14 Jan 2010, 12:04 am
After 150 hours of burning -first 70 hours with Isotek CD Full System Enhancer - I gave V3 a listening of some reference CDs.
It is not evident to me things are better, different yes, but better I'm not sure. :scratch:
If I remember well, bass was more defined with V2 than with V3, depth seems to be better with V3, still wondering about the high frequencies V3 seems to be less graspy than with V2.
I use NuForce P-9 preamplifier - with V2 at position 5 was very loud, with V3 I have to increase to 10 to get to the same level.
That's a huge difference - maybe my ML Summits are showing the less amount of power received.

Carlos
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: maligue on 14 Jan 2010, 07:22 am
I am including below the answer I received from a prominent audio engineer to my question  about impedance matching. Judging by the explanation, the issues some of you are having with gain, when comparing the V2 / V3, are not directly related to impedance matching.
But first to 'Carlos'. ML speakers have a high sensitivity. The Ascents I use are rated at 90dbl at 1 m. Hardly ever, regardless of the amplification implemented, have I been able to go beyond 10 am on the dial; the typical setting is 9.00 am! It appears from what you write that I would indeed 'gain' (pun intended) were I to implement the V3!
Now for the info. regarding impedance matching.

Thank you for your mail and the interesting point you address.
The 10:1 ratio for input impedance vs. output impedance is not based on science. It is a totally random choice made by uninformed people.
A little explanation on impedances and driving them:
Driving a high impedance from a low impedance is a near 100% voltage transfer.
The lower the input impedance and the higher the output impedance, the more current is going to be transferred relative to voltage.
When input impedance reaches about the same value as the output impedance, current and voltage transfer are in balance, and their product (power) is at its maximum.
There are many cases where it is advisable to have the input impedance equal the output impedance. This guarantees maximum power transfer without any losses (when done right).
It is very well possible to even do it the other way round, having a high output impedance driving a very low input impedance.
The only difference is that now we are driving a variable current into the input, instead of a variable voltage.
(Of course there should not be a frequency limiting component in that signal line, like a capacitor.)
There are several brands that actually use this technique, like Krell with their CAST connections.
 
Anyway, back to the ProLogue 3 and the NuForce: The PL3 is very well capable of driving the 22kOhms input impedance.
The limit where low frequency rolloff will start to be audible lies around 10k input impedance. This is caused by the output capacitor of the ProLogue 3.
 
In itself, the output stage of the ProLogue 3 is capable of driving down to 1k input impedances when it comes to harmonic distortion, when we disregard the bass rolloff.
The output level will drop when low impedance loads are driven, but the distortion does not increase, not even relatively, contrary to most other preamplifiers.
The output signal level drop with 22k compared to 44k however is only 0,2dB, which is totally insignificant.
 
This said, we can conclude that your ProLogue 3 is very well suited to drive the newer version of the NuForce amps with total confidence.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 14 Jan 2010, 06:39 pm
I have 144 hours on my V3's now they seem to have stabilized and sound much more coherent.  The clarity and depth of the music is awesome.  The imaging i never heard it so good before.  There is a lot more blackness in between the instruments as well.  I did make a lot of changes at once, to nuforce interconnects, speaker cables, magic cube and to V3.  Each day it has been getting better and better!!  The only thing i am having problems with is the volume control with the gain, its a little tricky but i am getting use to it.  I have been driving mine with PS Audio Perfect Wave Dac and Trans.   I have a Theta Gen VIII series 2 which has a analog volume control it seems to work much smoother than the PS Audio although it is not that bad.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 15 Jan 2010, 01:35 am
Worldcat i believe the wire takes longer than the amp to get broke in. The description of the sound your hearing is right on with most others. V 3 does take me further into the music and that makes me a happy audiophile. mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 15 Jan 2010, 02:40 am
Yeah i have new speaker cable and interconnects!   I believe they are going to get better and better.  I do not know if the magic cube's need breaking in.  The sound i am getting right now which is at 151 hours is amazing and getting better each day.  How long do you believe the wire takes?  V3 has taken me much further into the music and the DEPTH is incredible.   I have a very large room and very revealing speakers so i am able to really tell when something is different.   Makes me wonder what they will do with REF 18!!  I would like even a more fuller and liquid sound!
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 15 Jan 2010, 10:06 am
About the gain issue, we discussed it in the FAQ (http://www.nuforce.com/hi/faq/faq-V3.html (http://www.nuforce.com/hi/faq/faq-V3.html))

For those using the Magic Cube, after listening with it for some time, remove it to get what you're missing.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 15 Jan 2010, 11:14 am
My v3 ia-7 is now into its close 200 hours.

Spending with the amp with more time and going through my cd collection, now I am able to speak a bit more exactly about the difference between v2 and v3.

Definitely the treble of v3 is not as ear grabbing as v2. Whether v3 is better than v2 depends on your preference and system. Both have good extension and on paper the v3 is better, but I understand those who have lived with v2 for long time would miss v2 for a short while after moving on the v3. Treble of v3 is by no means lacking. some frends of mine who heard it here said the v3 is more accurate.  My ears were adapted to a slightly tilted upward tonal balance. I like exciting sound that easily gives an illusion of fast transience.

On the other hand, the image depth and blackness in v3 is so much improved. Music is further extended into the front wall behind the speakers. On some very good vocal recordings such as Cantate Domino (from Proprius) and Priests (the trio vocal from North Ireland) you can feel the church is just inside your room extending into the next room. The slightly ear grabbing treble presentation sometimes gives a more forward and shallower image. I short, the V3 is much mroe holographic. I believe the treble perforance and this holographical presentation is closely related.

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 15 Jan 2010, 01:28 pm
Jason the FAQs had slipped my mind thanks for reminding us with the answer to the gain question.
Casey did mention to me that he preferred RCA ICs with his amps.

Worldcat aint life grand with a super revealing system with music that flows for hours on end. I see you added those last bunch of hours mighty fast. I m the same way in fact i m going to play a LP before going to work this morning. Mike
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 15 Jan 2010, 08:28 pm
Right now i am at a full week of playing my system and listening!  Almost at 170 hours i will be listening for 4 or 5 hours tonight and i will see where they stand then. I agree with Welborne on the treble, i believe V3 is more accurate.  My speakers have a ribbon twitter.  To me i am really enjoying the V3 treble even more now its toned down a little.  Not that it was bad with V2 its just V3 sounds much better.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: nuforce-casey on 15 Jan 2010, 09:21 pm
I want to check with persons who are more technically proficient than I am about the following. The input impedance of the V3 board appears to be 22 KOhms, whereas the V2 sports double that - 44 KOhms. I wonder why the reduction? A cursory review of specs for many amps shows that standard spec for input impedance is 100 Kohms!

The 10:1 is really meaningless.   In the pro audio, all the input and output are matched to 600 ohm to maximize signal transfer (i.e. 1:1).  For no good reason, in consumer audio, we tend to have a 10K input impedance and a 100 Ohm output impedance.  However, these numbers are really arbitrary. 

What it means is we have more voltage transfer if the input impedance is higher than that of the output, and we have more current transfer in reverse.  A tube preamp, if they have a highish output impedance relative to the input impedance, simply mean they are required to pump a bit more current relative to a preamp with a lower output impedance.

What really matters is that the higher the input impedance, the higher the THD and noise, that's why we try to get it down as much as possible, while still making sure that the low frequency corner frequency remained well below 20Hz.

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Caar on 15 Jan 2010, 11:51 pm
When I referred that instead of a 5 I have now to put the P-9 to a 10 (or 11), I was not complaining, just stating a fact - as long as I have margin to increase the sound level to the level I want, I don't care if it is a 5 or a 50.
Just finished my music listening for today and I am liking more and more the sound I hear from the Ref9 SE V3 - decidely much better depth than with V2, the treble I decided by now that pleases me more. The midrange was superb with V2 and I can not find a difference with V3. The bass, well, I had to adjust slightly the 25Hz and 50Hzs controls of the Summits (reduce 0,5 Hz each) but that's a fact with these speakers, they are picky on the lower frequencies. Now the bass, to me, is as good as with V2 (never heard a better bass than the NuForce).
Sound spreads more to the sides of the speakers than with V2. Blackness was already to the top with V2.
Besides the depth - or holographic, if you want to call it that way - changes from V3 to V2 are noticeable but imo not that dramatic. After all, Ref 9SE V2 was already a superb amplifier so the margin to improve can not be 100%.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 16 Jan 2010, 02:33 pm
For me changing to V3, Magic Cube, and cable's have made a huge upgrade in my system.  I have been taken to a different level, the imaging is something to die for!
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Aether Audio on 16 Jan 2010, 08:08 pm
Friends,
 
As Jason mentioned, for those of you that have the Magic Cubes installed, would you mind doing us all a favor and simply remove them from your system and report back any differences that you hear?  I'm sure there are many that would be interested to know just how much of any improvement they make.  You might be surprised.  ;)
 
Thanks!  :D
-Bob
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Caar on 16 Jan 2010, 08:46 pm
Magic cube - I'm interested.
The report from different users about the V3 upgrade was very useful - in my case, the first audition, at hour zero, was a disapointment. But by then I knew things would improve after some time.
I hope the same happens with Magic cube - empirical experience from the first users.
Cheers.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 16 Jan 2010, 11:10 pm
I have been reading these posts with some consternation. A story of high hopes, fears of disappointment, virtually child-like innocence in the expectation of wonderous joys, etc. The hours counted, the bated breathe, as each of you who implemented the upgrade sits down to listen ... again. 'Will it be better today?'
One thing that strikes me about the posts and the very few extant reviews in the press about the V3 is the absence of considerations about the effects upgrading may have on system synergy and the related matter of psycho-acoustics, i.e., our experience of sound.
Presumably, the upgrade/modification will influence our experience of the sound quality coming from the source(s) as well as the all-important preamplification we use. In other words, it is not likely that in any system there is a constant against which the effects of such upgrades/mods can be 'objectively' assessed. Is is rather not the case that the 160 hrs many of the posts cite for critical break-in time are in effect the hours are brains require to 'process' the modified sound quality from the whole system we use?

We at Nuforce always the scientific approach. We never listen to our product until it has passed a range of measurement. We are not audio alchemy  :nono:   Sure, high-end audio design is part art and part science, but to us, science is the foundation (arts is doing the fine tuning with cap selection etc).

Take a look at this interesting and brief explanation of the amp's history:
http://www.nuforce.com/hi/faq/faq-V-history.html (http://www.nuforce.com/hi/faq/faq-V-history.html)

Going from V2 to V3, a special concern/consideration was to make sure we keep the best of V2 and only improve what's lacking.  Even before many of you guys independently commented about the improvements (more balance, mid and high are better, more musical, smoother etc), the measurement results already told us what we can expect.  Frequency response got so much better (it is incredibly straight in the listening range and still extended far beyond many other amps) in V3, THD vs Freq plot also showed us that the high freq should improved.  The improvement in our feedback loop design can't be easily measured, especially with dynamic load (measurement test use passive resistor as load), but we can "guess" the outcome.  Also further improvement in ground wiring and layout resulted in lower noise.

Why didn't we put all these into the first generation? Just like all development of complex machines (CPU, software, whatever you name it), it takes time to learn and improve.

With regards to Ref 18, we are not going to make dramatic improvement (because a new generation of design takes up to 2 years or more, and it gets harder and longer).  There are more costly refinement we can make to the chassis, amp board, power supply that we can't do for Ref 9V3SE.
We haven't announced anything for Ref 18 is simply that we have no idea at this point. The prototype is not back yet  :(


Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 17 Jan 2010, 02:51 am
Magic cube will add much more imaging and micro detail!!! If you like that then purchase Magic Cube :lol: 

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 17 Jan 2010, 03:53 am
Hello, new to this forum and i have a question

I have two ref9V3 newly updated to V3 and one of the amps do not start properly, if everything is shut down, preamp and all the other things, the amp will make this sound like its going up and down in frequense, cant find the right word for it, i am from Sweden

If i then start the preamp, Onkyo 806 receiver, the amp will turn on with a big thump and then it works like it should, i think

If i dont turn on the preamp and shut the ref 9 off it sometimes do not start again, completely dead until i unplug the powercord and plug it in again and then it is the same story all over again, WHY?

Please bare with my english, by the way: The V3 sounds great when i manage to get it right

Thomas

The upgrade is done at the distributor, not at our factory. Perhaps the signal feedback wasn't connected. There could be other reasons and you should contact support instead of trying to resolve it on this forum.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: LTMS on 17 Jan 2010, 11:23 am
The upgrade is done at the distributor, not at our factory. Perhaps the signal feedback wasn't connected. There could be other reasons and you should contact support instead of trying to resolve it on this forum.

Yes i know i should, i was just wondering if it is a problem or if it should be like this? I have no idea myself, i am at level zero of this :D

Thomas
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: maligue on 18 Jan 2010, 07:43 pm
To Casey and Jason ... thanks for responding to my "doubts" ... about impedance matching and the broader issue of 'expectations' when upgrades are available.
With regard to the former: You agree with the Prima Luna designer - overblown and ignorant remarks. Well, science being the contentious thing that history shows it to have been (and I guess audio engineering is no exception), let me quote what another illustrious audio firm thinks about the matter of impedance matching (and note: they explicitly refer to a tube preamp in relation to one of their products [PS Audio]:
"The input impedance of a power amplifier is an important issue, particularly if you are using a tube product to feed it (or if your solid state design is not a low impedance output drive).  No tube preamp should be asked to drive an input impedance of less than 30K, but the ICE modules’ native input impedance is only 10K.  This is undesirable for a tube product, causing poor bass performance and phase shift at audible frequencies."
I wonder what you say about this, as they go on to say that a minimum of input impedance for the power amp should be 50 KOhms.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Aether Audio on 18 Jan 2010, 09:26 pm
Friends,

Seeing that I am now the high-end audio technical support person for NuForce, I suppose I should try to help answer your concerns regarding the amplifier input impedance issue.  Please bear with me in the following, as the issue can be a bit complicated.

In a "theoretically" perfect world, the output and input impedances of audio components would appear as purely "resistive" terms.  That means there would be no variation of the impedance with respect to frequency.  If this were the case, then impedance matching (or lack thereof) would be a relatively very minor issue.  In a situation where the output impedance of a preamp is high (above 1K-Ohm) and the amplifier input impedance is low (below 10K-Ohm), the only consequence would be a very slight (approx. –1dB) reduction of voltage being delivered from the preamp into the amplifier.  Even in about the worst case where the impedances were the same (as in 600-Ohm professional equipment), the voltage being fed into the amplifier would be reduced by ½ (-6dB) as compared to what would be measured on the output of the preamp when it was not connected to the amp (no load condition).

A loss of -6dB would certainly be significant from a gain standpoint such that you would probably have to really turn up the preamp volume control, but unless the preamp simply could not provide that much extra gain and began clipping the signal, one would not expect to hear any difference in sound QUALITY.  That being said, then a –1dB gain loss should not introduce any negative effects whatsoever.  Again, in most cases a –1dB loss of gain due to an amplifier exhibiting a lower input impedance (10K-Ohm or so) is usually about the worst case we run into when it comes to high-end audio equipment.  Therefore, we would not expect to hear any audible degradation of the sound, even in this "worst case" scenario.

Now… the above only holds true as long as both the output and the input impedances of the connected devices are "flat" from a frequency response standpoint.  If a product were advertised as being "truly" high-end, then one would hope that we could expect the designers thereof to have made provision for such a flat impedance response.  Due to complicated technical reasons though, it is not typically possible to provide a flat impedance response under all impedance miss-match conditions.  This is especially true regarding a device's (a preamp) output impedance.  Nevertheless, using good "modern" design techniques would suggest that a preamp should be able to meet such a "flat impedance response" requirement when faced with a typical "worst case" load impedance of about 10K-Ohms.

If a preamp cannot achieve this level of performance, it does not necessarily mean that the device will not "sound" good, especially when it's driving an amplifier that exhibits a higher input impedance.  If this is so though, then the designer has severely restricted its possible use with other products.  There is no "right" or "wrong" in this regard and it is simply a matter of choice on the part of the designer of the product.  It is clearly a matter of opinion, but we question the wisdom of such a design philosophy from a marketing standpoint.  At a minimum, owners of such products would be well advised that if they select such a product, they should understand that their peripheral equipment (i.e., amplifier) options will be limited to those that exhibit input impedances that more closely match the requirements of their preamp.

You see… there is strong motivation on the part of the amplifier designer to keep the amp's input impedance as low as reasonably possible.  High impedance inputs are far more susceptible to external and internal noise pickup and distortion.  Good "low noise" design then suggests that the input impedance be kept as low as possible.  This then is in direct conflict with many (especially tube) preamp designs.  Tubes are relatively high impedance devices and require special types and/or circuits to achieve good low output impedance performance.  From a technical standpoint, designing tube preamps to have a lower output impedance is not really a significant design challenge, but doing so usually comes at a slightly higher financial cost due to the expense of better tubes and/or a higher parts count.  Unfortunately, it seems a common practice is for designers to simply avoid the added cost and parts count, and then recommend the preamp be used with amplifiers of higher input impedance.  Doing so though forces the amplifier designer to make potentially significant compromises in the performance of his product if he wishes to accommodate such a preamp.

And so the debate continues… "Whose responsibility is it to achieve optimal performance?"  Seeing that a lower input impedance can benefit both tube and solid-state power amplifier designs equally, it would seem the "onus" is on the preamp designer.  Good luck trying to tell him that though!  ;)

I hope this helps.  :D
-Bob
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: maligue on 19 Jan 2010, 05:50 am
Dear Bob!
Thank you for the lucid and detailed explanation.
I can't possibly adjudicate the matter, though I am left hanging as regards the advisability or otherwise of an Upgrade to V3. The facts are there on paper: the Prima Luna outputs 3.5KOms and the V3 has an input impedance of 22 KOhms.
So it seems, reading you, that it's a question of tossing a coin ... and hoping. It might sound fine, even if the electronics are out of sync.
I wonder what you would do (assuming 'change the preamp' is not the first and only option)

Best

E
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Aether Audio on 19 Jan 2010, 02:38 pm
maligue,
 
You are most welcome... and THANK YOU!  I'm glad I could help.
 
With regards to your preamp and the V3 upgrade, I'll give you the numbers and we can take it from there.
 
As it stands, your preamp combined with the orginal V2's input impedance of 44K-Ohms would result in a voltage drop (loss) at the input of the Ref 9 of -0.665 dBV.  That's barely over -1/2 dB and apparently it did not present a problem for you.
 
OK then, the same preamp driving into the new V3 board will yield a loss of -1.28 dBV... which is about twice as much as before, but still barely more than -1 dB.
 
Usually if there is any problem at all, it will be at the frequency extremes - and most likely at the low end around 20Hz or thereabouts.  If we assume the preamp's output impedance doubles to 7K-Ohms at 20Hz (that's pretty bad if it does), then that adds another -1.28 dB of loss.  I would assume a doubling of the output impedance to 7K-Ohms as being a "worst case," so that means about the worst you could expect would be a -3 dB loss at 20Hz with respect to the rest of the spectrum.
 
In my opinion, a -3dB loss at 20Hz is pretty insignificant and could probably be accommodated for fairly easily by simply moving your speakers a few inches closer to the wall behind them.  In all actuality, unless you have speakers that go very low into the bass, the odds are you wouldn't notice a bit of difference other than having to increase the setting of the preamp's volume control by a small amount.
 
Considering the above, I wouldn't think twice about giving the V3 upgrade a try.  The only hesitation I would have is if you are already running the preamp with the volume control at almost full volume.  Then again, if that were the case you would already know there was a problem and wouldn't even be considering the upgrade.
 
So... those are my thoughts on the matter.  If your preamp already provides plenty of gain with the V2, then I'd say you should be fine going with the V3.
 
I hope this helps.  Good luck and...
 
Take care,  :D
-Bob
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: maligue on 20 Jan 2010, 06:00 am
... just a note concering the volume control : with the Ref 9 V2 SE in place I often can hardly remain in the room (4.5 x 6.2 m.) if I raise the volume beyond 10 on the dial of any of the preamps I have in my stable (the P-9, Bryston BP-26, and my current favorite the Prima Luma Prologue 3). In which case, therefore, the upgrade to V3 will, in accordance with your observations, permit far more 'control', fine-tuning of the output.

Once again thanks and best wishes from snowy Switzerland
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 23 Jan 2010, 03:34 pm
With over 300 hours of break-in on my V3's, new cables, and magic cube my system has been taken to another level. Holographic, imaging, resolution, micro detail, blackness between the instruments, the sound stage is so wide and deep i can hear so far into the stage its mind blowing, and it go's on and on.  I believe the upgrade has been monumental in my system.  Going from V2 to V3 is a huge upgrade in my opinion!  :drool:   I do not know how much better Ref 18 will be but much more improvement it could be one of the best amps in the world at any price.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: David C on 23 Jan 2010, 05:11 pm
Worldcat
how do you have the magic cube hooked up? and is the improvement from it worthwhile
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: gammajo on 23 Jan 2010, 06:45 pm
Worldcat - Thanks for the report. Enjoy thye new level. I am still in the line waiting for upgrade
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 23 Jan 2010, 09:20 pm
Last night we played and listened to 10 lps. The session lasted into the early morning total musical enjoyment. V 3 is the real deal.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 24 Jan 2010, 01:48 am
I do think Magic cube is worth it.  Imaging and micro detail even better.  If you can demo for your system.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 24 Jan 2010, 01:54 am
Yes i agree V3 is the real deal.  I wonder how they will be reviewed in the big magazines if they will review them at all?
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 24 Jan 2010, 06:12 pm
The original Ref 9 was Absolute Sounds amp of the year i believe in 05. Class D amps are a hard pill to swallow for some long time audiophiles. Change in design is a tough sell for hard core tubed and solid state fans. I ve had many dealings with those who are against what Class D brings at other forums.

Again last night 7 lps and the difference between V 2 and V 3 is easily heard by my ears. More time i get V 3 probably over 500 hrs now it seems the better they get. A true wall of sound with depth along with micro details that give me goose bumps. I listen to classic rock music thats over 35 years old. I ve heard these songs hundreds of times but now i m hearing things not heard before. I love it.

But today music is taking a back seat going to the SuperDome to watch the NFC Championship game Who Dat Baby
Geaux Saints
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: gammajo on 24 Jan 2010, 08:12 pm
Also I think that class D's I have heard are much more sensitive to set including vibration control and additional weight on top, plus clean power and protecting other equipment from any power interferenhce from the D's. Without proper attention to these things D's can sound very unpleasant in the highs with digital front ends, and with them the V2 Ref 9 is sweet. I think this accounts for much of the difference of opinion as well as some nacebo effect, meaning such a small relatively inexpensive box can not possibly measure up to the big guys.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 25 Jan 2010, 06:42 pm
I have the PS Audio's new Perfect Wave Combo (dac and trans) the sound i am getting is in another world.  Not digital at all.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Caar on 30 Jan 2010, 11:36 am
At around 180 hours of burning, V3 is a clear winner over V2, I have no doubt now.
Specially the depth.
If this tendency goes on, one day, I'll be into the middle of the band, listening to what they are playing.
Well done  :thumb:.
Cheers.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 30 Jan 2010, 11:26 pm
V3 is in a different world than V2 and V2 was amazing.  Just more accurate amp.  It does all the things people say amps should do and they do them at a high level.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: gammajo on 8 Feb 2010, 02:15 pm
Reporting in. My number came up for the upgrade. I have silver units and wanted to change to black and was willing to pay the price of new covers. I also did not want to be without the amps because due to a broken leg, I am home bound and listening many hours each day to my system. Nuforce is immediately sending me already upgraded black units at the basic $800 upgrade price. And I don't have to send mine in until the new ones arrive. What nice people at Nuforce to do this. Excited to hear the V3's by the end of the week. How about updates on how peoples V3's are sounding now with more hours on them
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: LTMS on 8 Feb 2010, 05:25 pm
Reporting in. My number came up for the upgrade. I have silver units and wanted to change to black and was willing to pay the price of new covers. I also did not want to be without the amps because due to a broken leg, I am home bound and listening many hours each day to my system. Nuforce is immediately sending me already upgraded black units at the basic $800 upgrade price. And I don't have to send mine in until the new ones arrive. What nice people at Nuforce to do this. Excited to hear the V3's by the end of the week. How about updates on how peoples V3's are sounding now with more hours on them

Thats great, some people are superb :)

Thomas
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 10 Feb 2010, 02:11 pm
Reporting in. My number came up for the upgrade. I have silver units and wanted to change to black and was willing to pay the price of new covers. I also did not want to be without the amps because due to a broken leg, I am home bound and listening many hours each day to my system. Nuforce is immediately sending me already upgraded black units at the basic $800 upgrade price. And I don't have to send mine in until the new ones arrive. What nice people at Nuforce to do this. Excited to hear the V3's by the end of the week. How about updates on how peoples V3's are sounding now with more hours on them

Thats great for you what a great time to be a Nuforce customer. You are going to love the AH and Ref 9 SE V3 combo the size of your soundstage just doubled side to side and to the back. Enjoy the music and get that wheel healed and give us your thoughts.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: gammajo on 10 Feb 2010, 02:35 pm
Thanks Thomas and Beachbum. I will keep you posted. It sure is fun waiting for some new equipment - like the week before Christmas.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: JayDoubleU on 16 Feb 2010, 11:05 pm
I now have some 300 hours on my upgraded Ref 9 SE V3's. Yesterday I finalized the burning-in process with the Isotek Full System Enhancer (twice) and the Densen Demagic CD. The sound is amazing, stage is so much wider, deeper and even taller than before. My speakers are Gallo Reference 3.1, which tend to have a low stage, but that problem seems solved now as well. Any harsh high frequencies (if there ever were any) are gone, voices stand out beautifully. The lower gain is not an issue, just turn up the volume!
I have gone through all the upgrades of my original Ref 9's, every step has been an improvement. I wonder if any room for improvement is left. V4 will be a great challenge for NuForce  :icon_lol:

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 16 Feb 2010, 11:15 pm
I agree with you Jay DoubleU.  Soon REF 18 will be coming out.   It should be even better:) :eyebrows:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Welborne on 17 Feb 2010, 11:51 am
I have to say that the best thing about v3 is depth of soundstage. I think the ultra blackness and lack of phase shift shrill on top end has a lot to do with this. :thumb:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: WerTicus on 21 Feb 2010, 04:45 am
i borrowed some 9v3 se's for the weekend, its going to be hard to go back to my 8b's
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 21 Feb 2010, 06:59 am
i borrowed some 9v3 se's for the weekend, its going to be hard to go back to my 8b's

Unless you need the extra power, 8b can be upgraded to V3.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: charliefoxtrot on 21 Feb 2010, 09:05 am
Jason.

First of all let me say how pleased I am with my IA 7 V3. It´s my first NuForce product.

However, I´m curious to know if you are looking into the matter of the slow volume controll. Yes, I`m aware of the on button + input selection to jump to a given volume level. Clever, all though it can be hazardous! (people, jumping to level 4 might not be such a good idea. I´ve tried...).

Any comments? 

Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: WerTicus on 21 Feb 2010, 05:09 pm
interesting, i wonder how much of what i like about the 9's is the power.  I generally don't think i use all the 8's power anyway.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: gammajo on 26 Feb 2010, 01:50 am
I received my V3 SE’s and have had only one day between business trips to play with them but wanted to share the joy of my first impressions. The context, for me is that the V2 Se’s were excellent in terms of bass control, detail, and clarity, much like a finely cut diamond in sound on excellent CD recordings. On less than stellar recordings for me there was a touch of treble brightness and edge. I was concerned that it may have been a result of my live room.
Right out of the box I can tell that the V3 is a significant level improvement. I immediately noticed that the sound stage seems at least 5 feet wider for the instruments, but more significantly it feels as if the hall ambience from the side of the stage is more present and realistic and feels like it extends another 10 feet. There is an obvious increase in musicality, realism, and balance. The treble is sweeter and tamer yet sparkles with life. This is the first switching amp that I would say is as pleasureful and musical as a fine Class A amp such as Pass Labs XA100.5. Many recordings that I would have said were a bit hard now sound beautiful. The V3 has an engaging sound and after about 5 hours of listening there is no fatigue. Listening in the kitchen, one room away from the system, it sounds more like live music playing in the other room. The new units are also more attractive than the V2. I know that there is more break-in time needed but I could not be happier. No issues with the Audio Horizons preamp in terms of gain, just went from 11'oclock, to 1 o'clock for max volume. Great job, Nuforce.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 26 Feb 2010, 02:25 am
gammajo; you haven't heard anything yet!
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: gammajo on 26 Feb 2010, 02:31 am
I can't wait to get back next week to continue my listening.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: beachbum on 28 Feb 2010, 03:30 am
you will be enjoying all of your music even the disks you dont play because of sound quality. with V3 you will be in music haven and enjoy the ride though breakin gammajo.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: gammajo on 12 Mar 2010, 03:05 pm
Followup: with 100 plus hours on the V3's I continue to be very pleased. On all important sound dimensions these babies are excellent. I continue to be amazed at the sound stage width and ambience. I have not experienced the dramatic depth increase mentioned by some but there is definitely more air around instruments, clearer layering front to back, and more precise positioning.
Many old CD's (every Mobile Fidelity Moody Blue's) are now more pleasureful and filled with surprising sonic treats. Sound is exciting but civilized and natural.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: worldcat on 12 Mar 2010, 09:12 pm
Just wait it will come and you will be impressed even more!!! :lol:
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: ThePhile on 29 Mar 2010, 08:39 am
Am considering the V3 upgrade. I currently own the nuforce 8.5 v2 mono blocks and am wondering if the upgrade to V3 is substantially better than the V2se (Cannot afford the V3se upgrade). Many of the reviews here are based on the V3se. Anyone using the V3 (not se) offer their views. 
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 29 Mar 2010, 11:28 am
A new generation amp (V2 to V3) is always better than the SE upgrade within the same generation.
BUT, comparing 8.5V3 versus Ref 9V2SE also involve the power supply and the different and bigger power supply in the Ref 9 affects the dynamic besides providing more head rooms.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: phusis on 2 Apr 2010, 05:37 pm
A new generation amp (V2 to V3) is always better than the SE upgrade within the same generation.
BUT, comparing 8.5V3 versus Ref 9V2SE also involve the power supply and the different and bigger power supply in the Ref 9 affects the dynamic besides providing more head rooms.

Hi Jason

I'm about to replace my IcePower-based poweramp with either your stereo poweramp 8.5 V3 or the mono's 9 V3 SE. Do they share the same basic sound quality, or does the different and bigger power supply of the 9's shine through even at lower volumes? My speakers are Raidho Ayra C-1.0, and they are placed in a room of about 19 square meters. I rarely play very loud, and so believes the 8.5 should do just well, power-wise.

Please elaborate on any possible differences between the 8.5 V3 and 9 V3 SE in sound presentation at "normal" listening levels, if they're worth mentioning :)

UPDATE: Perhaps this comparison between the 9 V2 and the 9 V2 SE is an indication:

Quote
Comparison of the Reference 9 V2 to the Reference 9 V2 SE

The only negative I heard in the Reference 9 V2 was a slight but nagging limitation in emotional response. I found it harder to sing along with the 9 V2 than with the 9 SE. The midrange lacked inflection when it mattered most. For instance, when all hell breaks loose around Rubén Blades, he sounds a tad too relaxed. The man is raging against the machine. He needs more oomph. Could it be a matter of missing amplitude?

Ah-ha -- now I remembered why I ordered the V2 upgrade boards in the first place. Harnessing the V2 to the 9 SE’s overkill capacitor bank should give me the dynamic capability I think the new amplifier lacks to a tiny degree. Let us see if, for once, I was right.

One of my prized possessions is Joan Manuel Serrat’s Sombras de la China [Ariola 74321-614.792]. This 1998 release by the Catalán singer-songwriter, recorded in Barcelona and mastered in Paris, has it all: poetry, performance, and audiophile sound. The V2 rendered the poetry with riveting clarity enhanced by room-filling accompaniment. But the new amp erred by turning Serrat into a smooth crooner. The V2 SE is more truthful. It reveals the rasp of the poet’s light baritone voice. According to a friend who has heard Serrat in concert, the V2 SE’s lighter sound is more accurate. Meanwhile, the SE’s perspective at least equal that of the V2, but to my ear, the drama is higher. There’s nothing like proper dynamics. The V2 SE was the easy winner.

Another great test disc is the Grammy-winning Tiempos [Sony 83184], by the aforementioned Panamanian political scientist and salsa singer extraordinaire, Rubén Blades. I especially like this disc because the backing group is Costa Rica’s Editus, a unique three-musician blend led by violinist Ronald Ramirez. Social commentary and haunting violin, keyboard, and percussion playing distinguish this album, along with the sounds of motorcycles, helicopters, and machine guns. The V2 captured the details, but the V2 SE interpreted the cues. For instance, the V2 sent the helicopters back and forth; the V2 SE had them circle the soundstage, passing in front of as well as behind the speakers. On "Sicarios," a story of hired assassins, the V2’s suave manner masked the message with lilting vocals and catchy percussion. The V2 SE’s higher contrast revealed the lyrics’ chilling ironies. On this system, and for the first time, I realized that the song can strike terror. I could go on, but to me, the evidence is clear. The 9 V2 SE is a livelier, more compelling version of the wondrous V2. It combines the mature harmonic grace of the new board with the youthful snap of the SE’s bespoke capacitor bank.

Nevertheless, I hesitate to categorically recommend the V2 SE over the V2. With the Audio Research CD7’s analog-like signal, the V2 SE was nigh perfect. With less capable CD players (all others?), the V2 SE might sound a tad cool in the lower midrange. The V2 was warmer to my ears. With electrostatic speakers or those with a truly flat frequency response, the V2 might be the better choice. It fleshed out the parts we tend to think are missing in "flat" sound. With aggressive loudspeakers or high-strung CD players, its edgeless flow might provide a perfect match.

My taste and system requirements favor the Reference 9 V2 SE’s more emphatic presence. I’ve gone ahead and installed V2 boards in all eight Reference 9 SE monoblocks -- happily, they all sound alike. Nevertheless, I also plan to keep the Reference 9 V2 as is. It displays a new capability, a breakthrough sound in "digital" amplification that is warm and seductive. To arrive at V2 performance is no easy task. I salute the NuForce team for having taken the hard road to originality. The NuForce Reference 9 V2 deserves to be heard by everyone, especially the competition.

…Jim Saxon


http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi/20071001.htm (http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi/20071001.htm)

Best,
M

 
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: rustydoglim on 5 Apr 2010, 11:23 am
The difference between the Stereo 8.5V3 and Ref 9V3SE is small if you don't need that much power (ie you have high efficiency speaker).
The Stereo 8.5V3 has a half size SE capacitor array (our proprietary design) compared to the Ref 9V3SE.

All our Ref series amps use exactly the same amp board. The SMPS (300W RMS, but able to provide up to 500W if more current is needed) in the Ref 9V3SE has better dynamic but then in most cases the power is supplied by the capacitor array.  If you push the limit and play CONSTANTLY at VERY LOUD level, then the SMPS in Ref 9V3SE will be able to perform better than the smaller SMPS in Stereo 8.5V3.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: phusis on 5 Apr 2010, 12:39 pm
Thank you for replying, Jason. I think I'll invest in the Stereo 8.5V3 then..

UPDATE: Tuesday last week placed my order for a Stereo 8.5V3 in black, and am now eagerly awaiting its arival. Since my existing poweramp is IcePower-based, anyone who has converted from IcePower(say, Bel Canto) to NuForce(preferably later editions; V2/V3) are welcomed to share their experience in this regard.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: timothyharnett on 15 Apr 2010, 04:14 pm
Just got my 9se v3 from Hiaudio.  It's still warming through but there are Improvements straight out of the box; 

1) Compatibility with my preamp (Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista 300) is better. I had hiss coming through the speakers before but this has stopped due to the reduction in input sensitivity.  I'm able to use more of the volume range.
2) The overall balance is better.  I wasn't finding orchestral particularly enjoyable versus my other amps but pulling back the treble a touch and improving the imaging has improved things a lot.
3) The mechanical noise has improved.  It's very low level and still evident but this could do with being got rid of in V4.

A very worthwhile upgrade for me.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: Kenobi on 20 Apr 2010, 02:38 pm
Thank you for replying, Jason. I think I'll invest in the Stereo 8.5V3 then..

UPDATE: Tuesday last week placed my order for a Stereo 8.5V3 in black, and am now eagerly awaiting its arival. Since my existing poweramp is IcePower-based, anyone who has converted from IcePower(say, Bel Canto) to NuForce(preferably later editions; V2/V3) are welcomed to share their experience in this regard.

My first digital amp experience was with the Bel Canto Ref 1K MKI.  I loved it initially due to the thick and meaty midrange.  Over the course of my 6+ month ownership, I encountered its weaknesses and let it go.  For me and in my system, they were lacking in its ability to reproduce extended highs faithfully, a shallow soundstage, too syrupy and thick, lack speed and excitement as well as inarticulate bass.  Then, I bought the MCH3SE-C7 (V2)  and never looked back.  Got everything I was looking for plus 5 more extra channels for my HT.

Hope this helps,

Kenobi
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: phusis on 20 Apr 2010, 10:32 pm
My first digital amp experience was with the Bel Canto Ref 1K MKI.  I loved it initially due to the thick and meaty midrange.  Over the course of my 6+ month ownership, I encountered its weakness and let it go.  For me and in my system, they were lacking in its ability to reproduce extended highs faithfully, a shallow soundstage, too syrupy and thick, lack speed and excitement as well as inarticulate bass.  Then, I bought the MCH3SE-C7 (V2)  and never looked back.  Got everything I was looking for plus 5 more extra channels for my HT.

Hope this helps,

Kenobi

Kenobi -

Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm seeing some tendencies with regard to the house sound of NuForce vs IcePower-based amps. I've listened to NuForce amps(9V2SE) once at my local dealer here in Denmark, driving the impressive S.P. Tech Revelations - a truly stunning demo. All things considered, I believe to have found at least some of the sonic signature(or lack hereof) of the NuForce amps, and I really like what I'm hearing and reading of them. Supposedly the V3 boards make things all the merrier...

A friend of mine has decided to place an order for a Stereo 8.5V3 as well,  and my dealer told me our amps will ship this Thursday. Naturally we're both head over heels anticipating their inclusion in our respective setups.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: 6rs on 23 Apr 2010, 05:49 pm
Love my 9V3 SE! They combine power, transparency, control, and warmth.
Also, Nuforce customer service is extremely responsive, competent and generous.
Now, it is all about music...


(Mac mini, Amarra, Entreq FW, Weiss Dac2, Systems & Magic Power Conditioner, Nuforce XLR cable, Mapleshade double helix speaker cable, highly modded ATC SCM20 on Mapleshade platforms, ASI sugar cubes, AR Schuman wave generator, Boston Audio tune blocks 2).
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: phusis on 2 May 2010, 10:05 am
Received my NuForce Stereo 8.5V3 last Tuesday, and as of this writing it has now clocked some 90 hours of music. Only few hours into its run, and a short amount of time needed for the impressions to settle in, my initial reaction was that of "Wow!" I felt the presentation much more finely textured and pleasing to the ear than through the ICEPower-based Acoustic Reality amp, with a pronounced sensation of extension(both ends of the spectrum, but particularly the top end) and natural decay. The soundstage has broadened in all directions, and voices now exhibit a more tightly woven core and size(voices trough the AR amp appeared a little over-blown, flat, and hollow in comparison) and a very lifelike presence. It's actually as if listening through the speakers now, feeling space behind and around voices or instruments, coupled with the almost eerie quiteness from which the music flows. Spectacular, really.

Haven't had a listen the last day and a half since I'm visiting family, but has kept the stereo running at moderate, or rather low volume, now gaining som 30+ hours. It'll be interesting to see whether I'll notice the much talked about "collaps" of the sound that so many have reported happening at around 100 hours or so, until the V3 boards regains their strength and are said to settle in no earlier than from 150 hours and beyond.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: 6rs on 4 May 2010, 10:24 am
It'll be interesting to see whether I'll notice the much talked about "collaps" of the sound that so many have reported happening at around 100 hours or so, until the V3 boards regains their strength and are said to settle in no earlier than from 150 hours and beyond.
I have experienced a temporary glare, almost shrillness in the sound around 100hrs. Now, after about 170 hours, all of that has vanished and smoothened out.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: phusis on 4 May 2010, 04:35 pm
6rs -

Last Sunday my Stereo 8.5V3 had approx 100 hours of music in it, and I found the sound had turned into being somewhat muffled and constrained, the soundstage lacking in size and a shortage of air and decay as well. Rather dull, actually. Yesterday midnight(at about 125 hours) clarity and precision had improved notably, and today the soundstage seems to have expanded. It's as if a thin veil is about to disappear, and everything is being tightened up(contrasted perhaps by the bigger soundstage), including the lower frequencies.
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: 6rs on 4 May 2010, 07:02 pm
Last Sunday my Stereo 8.5V3 had approx 100 hours of music in it, and I found the sound had turned into being somewhat muffled and constrained, the soundstage lacking in size and a shortage of air and decay as well. Rather dull, actually. Yesterday midnight (at about 125 hours) clarity and precision had improved notably, and today the soundstage seems to have expanded. It's as if a thin veil is about to disappear, and everything is being tightened up (contrasted perhaps by the bigger soundstage), including the lower frequencies.
Indeed, it quite amazing to see how the "burn-in" matters. Since my ATCs are super-sensitive to glare, this is the most important aspect in my system, however, I agree that the sound as a whole took a turn to being more holographic.
Bruno
Title: Re: New V3 users chime in
Post by: LTMS on 15 May 2010, 10:36 am
I am powering my MK 150 center with one of my ref9V3, it sounds real good