[Ultralight]

Had opportunity to put an Alnico XRS through its paces a while back. And have been running a Super 3i for three weeks. 

I started writing a review but got busy - will finish it up eventually and post on the review page of audiocircle.  In short, for me, both do best with a pair of subwoofers but in that context, they are absolutely superb.  The super 3i replaced my KEF LS50 after one day. If the Super 3i ran $1500 like the KEF LS15 at retail, then it could be a hard choice depending on what one is looking for.  I picked the 3i.  But at $595 retail, the 3i is just an astounding value if, for me, I run it with subs. The KEF LS50 also needs a sub.  Anyways, I am digressing.  Bravo Louis.  There's just so much that is right with your speakers.

Question for a Super 3i speaker - if one is not going to go beyond the first two watts and could get a gift of either the Decware Super Zen with its 2 watts or a Line Magnetic 518ia with is 22 watts so that cost is a non-issue.  And assuming that one can't resell either so that resale value is of no consequence either, what would you pick?    And why?   Again that is if one is staying within the boundary of 2 watts and have a subwoofer pair to take care of the bottom range. 

And would the equation change if one were running Alnicos instead with its 93db?

Again, I now get all the Omega rave.  Just need to get my informal review done....

Thanks,
UL

[DaveC113]

LM for sure, it's pretty much the ultimate amp for speakers like Omega IMO.

[Nailbunny7]

LM for sure, it's pretty much the ultimate amp for speakers like Omega IMO.

That amp seems super sweet, just looking at it's build. 845 tubes are definitely wonderful, so if price weren't a factor I would go with that amp

[Sense63]

UL-  That doesn't seem like a fair comparison.....like apples and oranges, especially at the price difference.  Interesting though.  If you were to ask about the Zen TorII MkIV vs the 518ia, then that would seem more realistic in comparison.  I haven't heard either amp, but the Decware supposedly pulls off the SET sound without being a SET amplifier.  One other thing to consider.....lifetime warranty, built in the US Decware vs made in China.  I know which one I'd pick.

[beowulf]

UL-  That doesn't seem like a fair comparison.....like apples and oranges, especially at the price difference.  Interesting though.  If you were to ask about the Zen TorII MkIV vs the 518ia, then that would seem more realistic in comparison.  I haven't heard either amp, but the Decware supposedly pulls off the SET sound without being a SET amplifier.  One other thing to consider.....lifetime warranty, built in the US Decware vs made in China.  I know which one I'd pick.

+1, Steve D. is a great circuit designer and the Torii was going to be Tone Audio's product of the year, but it was only passed up by it's bigger brother the Zen Mystery Amp which was compared to some of the exotics such as Shindo and LM, to name a couple.  I would even take the Torii Jr. over the Line Magnetic amp you're considering.

Here is a classic example of Decware build quality.  This is the entire audio circuit for one channel of the Torii Jr.  There are only 10 solder nodes in the signal path between the input and output jack ... talk about transparency!

[opnly bafld]

I would even take the Torii Jr. over the Line Magnetic amp you're considering.

 

[Ultralight]

Ah....thanks everyone for the comments.

I had asked about the little Zen because it was my understanding that for 2 watts and below, it was Decware's best sounding unit regardless of cost.  Apparently wherever I read that was a mistaken claim then?  Just seeking confirmation.  I was told that the larger units were all trying to chase the little unit's tone - but with more power.  I think I may have gotten this last comment from Steve of Decware himself...

UL

[jorgen]

Om not sure either where you read that, but I read it too, somewhere..

[Canada Rob]

It's somewhere here on the Omega AudioCircle.  If memory serves me correctly there's a sort of Decware club in the Chicago area and it was mentioned that in order to equal the tonal quality of the SE84, one had to go to the Mystery Amp.  I've heard that the Line Magnetic amps are way less money in China than in the U.S., so what is it's "real" value?  $2500?  If you're running ANY current Omega the little Zen is a killer match tried and true.  If you need more power to drive less efficient speakers, I would buy a more powerful Decware.

All things considered, what is your priority?  For me, it's not about power - it's about tone and speed.  If an amp has these two down right, all the audiophile superlatives will come into play, that is, when matched with the right speakers.  Due to the SE84s ultra simple circuitry, and very fast and linear 9 pin output tubes it fills these bills beautifully.  Never heard a faster amp.

Over the years, my recommendation of the SE84 has always been in the context of matching it with Omega speakers. 

[DaveC113]

IMO, it's a blessing we can get an 845 amp for a reasonable price. I'd rather buy something made in the USA but I'm not sure you can get an 845/211/805/GM70 type amp for anywhere close to the price of Line Magnetic built in the US.

CR, that's great 2W is enough for you, for me it isn't. That doesn't mean I prioritize power above speed and tone though, I want it all.

[Canada Rob]

I agree Dave that 2w isn't for everyone and I hope I'm not misunderstood as thinking the SE84 is the only amp to have.  For the money or anywhere near, the SE84 is a tough amp to beat though, and yes it must fit into one's system and listening style.  A few products in the audio market have stood the test of time and the SE84 (going on 20 years) certainly has, and there's a reason - it's just plain great.  As far as 845/211/805/GM70 goes, Ideal Innovations up here in Canada could probably build one for the price of the Line Magnetic.  Syd's amplifiers are extremely good and way overbuilt.  The physical quality of his amps are like products built in the 1950s or 60s.

[roscoe65]

Rob's point about having someone build domestically is a valid one.  There are a number of advanced hobbyists/small manufacturers who will build a seriously high end amp for a modest price.  If I am looking for a statement triode amp I can ask my local builder for his best custom work, and his end price will likely be $1,500-$3,000 depending on parts.

A point to remember that the universe of consumers for low power, SE tube amps is incredibly small.  In the US, out of 320 million people there are no more than a few thousand (at most) who would even consider a 2 watt triode amp.  In that context, most domestically built amps are effectively custom.

I agree Dave that 2w isn't for everyone and I hope I'm not misunderstood as thinking the SE84 is the only amp to have.  For the money or anywhere near, the SE84 is a tough amp to beat though, and yes it must fit into one's system and listening style.  A few products in the audio market have stood the test of time and the SE84 (going on 20 years) certainly has, and there's a reason - it's just plain great.  As far as 845/211/805/GM70 goes, Ideal Innovations up here in Canada could probably build one for the price of the Line Magnetic.  Syd's amplifiers are extremely good and way overbuilt.  The physical quality of his amps are like products built in the 1950s or 60s.

[DaveC113]

I agree Dave that 2w isn't for everyone and I hope I'm not misunderstood as thinking the SE84 is the only amp to have.  For the money or anywhere near, the SE84 is a tough amp to beat though, and yes it must fit into one's system and listening style.  A few products in the audio market have stood the test of time and the SE84 (going on 20 years) certainly has, and there's a reason - it's just plain great.  As far as 845/211/805/GM70 goes, Ideal Innovations up here in Canada could probably build one for the price of the Line Magnetic.  Syd's amplifiers are extremely good and way overbuilt.  The physical quality of his amps are like products built in the 1950s or 60s.

That's great, I'd consider that a better option. I've been wanting to build a high power SET for a long time now and I'd spend at least $3k in parts, they need to be 3-stage with a 1kV+ power supply. I'd expect a custom built made-in-USA amp like that to be at least double the price of the LM, but who knows, it's worth checking....

[seikosha]

I've got a Custom built 2A3 amp using about 2k worth of parts.  It sounds really nice.  Comparing it to the latest version of the 2watt Zen with the UFO transformers is interesting.  The 2A3 probably weighs 40 pounds more than the Zen and is almost 3 times as large.

Besides the added power, which is noticeable, I'm just not sure I could say that the 2A3 is superior.  It's that close.  They both bring their own strengths to the table.  The added power is nice and noticeable though for sure.  Comparisons so far have strictly been on Omega 3XRS's.

That said, I've not tube rolled with the 2A3 and with different tubes, it might pull ahead.

[Nailbunny7]

That's great, I'd consider that a better option. I've been wanting to build a high power SET for a long time now and I'd spend at least $3k in parts, they need to be 3-stage with a 1kV+ power supply. I'd expect a custom built made-in-USA amp like that to be at least double the price of the LM, but who knows, it's worth checking....

Many times I've considered building one of these, but the main thing holding me back is how dangerous voltages that high can be. Many magnitudes more dangerous than the typical tube amps that run at 300-400 volts. That and it's kind of tough to source premium parts that can withstand the voltage (Teflon caps come to mind, but they may very well cost more than premium 845 tubes!). About 2-3K is what you can expect parts to cost if you want to use premium parts (transformers alone may cost several hundred, depending who makes them. Edcor are cheaper).
I could probably make amps from a tube such as the KT150 that would be single ended triode and produce about 10 watts of power (just a guesstimate. I haven't done the math yet) that would be much safer, and stay under 600 volts, so good parts may be used for cheaper. It would also cost a lot less to make than an 845 tube amp.

[pstrisik]

My amp (see avatar) was built by Dennis Had of Cary fame.  It is a single ended pentode and he originally designed it to run KT150's at 12wpc.  It will run many pentode varieties from 6V6 to KT150 and lots in between.  He is building them by hand himself after retiring.  He has made a couple of SET amps as well over the past couple of years.  He may be worth checking with about what you want.  Made in good ole North Carolina.  PM me if you want his contact info.

........Peter

[Nailbunny7]

My amp (see avatar) was built by Dennis Had of Cary fame.  It is a single ended pentode and he originally designed it to run KT150's at 12wpc.  It will run many pentode varieties from 6V6 to KT150 and lots in between.  He is building them by hand himself after retiring.  He has made a couple of SET amps as well over the past couple of years.  He may be worth checking with about what you want.  Made in good ole North Carolina.  PM me if you want his contact info.

........Peter

I can endorse his amps. They are really good quality.

[DaveC113]

Many times I've considered building one of these, but the main thing holding me back is how dangerous voltages that high can be. Many magnitudes more dangerous than the typical tube amps that run at 300-400 volts. That and it's kind of tough to source premium parts that can withstand the voltage (Teflon caps come to mind, but they may very well cost more than premium 845 tubes!). About 2-3K is what you can expect parts to cost if you want to use premium parts (transformers alone may cost several hundred, depending who makes them. Edcor are cheaper).
I could probably make amps from a tube such as the KT150 that would be single ended triode and produce about 10 watts of power (just a guesstimate. I haven't done the math yet) that would be much safer, and stay under 600 volts, so good parts may be used for cheaper. It would also cost a lot less to make than an 845 tube amp.

My plan is to use my EL34 SET amp to drive 211 output tubes with their own PS in their own chassis. I'll install a switch on the EL34 amp that sends the signal through coupling caps instead of the OPTs. My EL34 SET is also driverless, it's fed by an Aikido preamp with 20 dB gain which I may rewire to use 6SL7 input tubes for more gain if needed, or maybe use 2:1 interstage trafos, but that's a pricey option... My EL34 SET produces about 7 watts running triode mode, the tubes are run slightly over spec but it's never been a problem. 

[Nailbunny7]

My plan is to use my EL34 SET amp to drive 211 output tubes with their own PS in their own chassis. I'll install a switch on the EL34 amp that sends the signal through coupling caps instead of the OPTs. My EL34 SET is also driverless, it's fed by an Aikido preamp with 20 dB gain which I may rewire to use 6SL7 input tubes for more gain if needed, or maybe use 2:1 interstage trafos, but that's a pricey option... My EL34 SET produces about 7 watts running triode mode, the tubes are run slightly over spec but it's never been a problem. 

Without looking at your schematic for the EL34 amp, I don't think it will work as intended, since the speakers, coupled through the transformer, serves as the load for the tube normally, so you can't just use a cap to drive the 211 tubes. You most likely will need to have a proper driver stage. If you want to talk about it in more detail, you can PM me.

[DaveC113]

Without looking at your schematic for the EL34 amp, I don't think it will work as intended, since the speakers, coupled through the transformer, serves as the load for the tube normally, so you can't just use a cap to drive the 211 tubes. You most likely will need to have a proper driver stage. If you want to talk about it in more detail, you can PM me.

I see what you're saying, it'll be more complicated than that... a parafeed arrangement with a non gapped trafo or a suitable gapped interstage trafo would be needed to provide the right load for the EL34. I have been looking at interstage trafos recently and that might be the way to go, it's just expensive for a good set. I'll PM you in a bit..