[Geardaddy]

Power conditioning is an interesting subject and warrants attempts at measurements but also within the proper context. What are you measuring and why?  what’s your frame of reference?  A lot of it floats around on ASR is akin to Jimmy Fallon‘s IT guy in it’s overall tone.  It would be far more interesting to hear from manufacturers and people who actually do it for a living rather than a semi-retired Microsoft engineer whose glory days was in the 90s and who has never designed audio equipment himself.  And since when was a Topping preamp considered state of the art?   

[AndrewA]

Either ASR isn't taking the right measurements to indicate what's going on, or he's misinterpreting the measurements that he's taken. Those are the only two possible conclusions, because many pairs of ears have heard a clear and enduring improvement in the sonic presentation.

[Kishore]

This reminds me of a wonderful song:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_e-RQZVwxg

You state " he does not understand his measurements" and you have not explained in detail what measurements were not 'understood' or misinterpreted.   

Either ASR isn't taking the right measurements to indicate what's going on,

Exactly- maybe there are other measurements which have not been considered; or there are other conditions not noted which may impact use of PSM.

..or he's misinterpreting the measurements that he's taken.

Ok- Early B mentioned same earlier- and he has failed to point to it instead dealing with bluster when I called him out on specifics The measurements taken so far do not point to a big difference (or very little difference). Maybe you or someone can point to it from the measurements taken already. That was what I had asked and have got no response other than measurement is valid and youtube song link

Those are the only two possible conclusions, because many pairs of ears have heard a clear and enduring improvement in the sonic presentation.

There is also a 3rd possibility- pairs of ears got fooled too  . 'Placebo effect' is a powerful influence.

There is subjectivity involved- Similar to my reaction to use of PS Audio P15 power conditioner- different circumstances/different results. I know it made a difference, but in my changed setup -not anymore.

I am curious about PSM too- and hope to try in my system.  When someone states xyz is BS- I always try to seek information to support that claim and that has not happened here.

[Randy]

Based on the positive reports posted in this thread earlier this year I purchased a 156 model. Then I posted that I thought it had a very positive effect on the sonics of my system. As time went on, however, I realized that it really wasn't making much if any difference in the sonics. I took it out of my system, didn't notice any change without it, and eventually sold it. Kishore may be on to something when he suggests there may be a placebo effect based on wishful thinking using this unit and most other power conditioners. I've had this happen before, actually, with other power conditioners and Lord knows, I've tried at least a dozen of them. Initial encouragement soon followed by disillusionment and that includes three different models over the years of the PS Audio regenerators plus another regenerator (two models) from Pure Power in Canada. Another thing. It's easy to misinterpret a "change" in sonics as "better" when it really isn't, and sometimes it takes a while to realize that.

[Big Red Machine]

I'm allergic to placebos and sugar pills. Mine is staying for my present electrical situation.

[Early B.]

Based on the positive reports posted in this thread earlier this year I purchased a 156 model. Then I posted that I thought it had a very positive effect on the sonics of my system. As time went on, however, I realized that it really wasn't making much if any difference in the sonics. I took it out of my system, didn't notice any change without it, and eventually sold it. Kishore may be on to something when he suggests there may be a placebo effect based on wishful thinking using this unit and most other power conditioners. I've had this happen before, actually, with other power conditioners and Lord knows, I've tried at least a dozen of them. Initial encouragement soon followed by disillusionment and that includes three different models over the years of the PS Audio regenerators plus another regenerator (two models) from Pure Power in Canada. Another thing. It's easy to misinterpret a "change" in sonics as "better" when it really isn't, and sometimes it takes a while to realize that.

This "placebo effect" can occur with any audio component, cable swap, or tweak.

Power conditioners are like condoms -- people talk more about how they feel rather than how well they protect. The primary purpose for purchasing a power conditioner isn't sonics, it's protection. Sonically, you want a power conditioner to do as little or no harm as possible. If don't hear a sonic difference from introducing a new power conditioner, that's a good thing. If you think it sounds better, that's a good thing, too. 

 
   
 

[AndrewA]

Placebo effect similarly affecting dozens of listeners OR one guy not getting it right?

I wonder which is more probable...

[genjamon]

Expectation bias can go equally for folks expecting to hear nice new equipment improve their sound and for those who believe only the best measuring equipment can make a difference.  But it sounds to me like Randy made it past whatever initial expectation bias he had to reassess later down the line.  Did it make no difference initially and it was all Randy's expectation bias talking?  Did it actually make initial positive difference and then no difference later due to changed circumstances in his system or his hearing or the music evaluated?  Did Randy convince himself upon second listening that it made no difference, even though it did?  No one will ever know for certain, but at least Randy didn't have a vested interest in coming to his ultimate conclusion, unlike those who currently own the equipment and those who have reputations for objectivity to uphold.

[goskers]

The ASR findings on power conditioners seem pretty clear. If one has a well design piece of equipment then what it is plugged into doesn’t seem to matter. Most of these power products seem to do more to harm than improve.

Claims made by most manufacturers are the same. Use references to things which are very difficult to quantify. For this they aren’t necessarily lying but are certainly playing on the reality of the biases.

I continue to wonder what will get some to consider some of the tests being done as pivotal when it comes to buying decisions versus conformational  IF the measurements support their experience.

[Randy]

I was really letdown and disappointed when it became apparent that the 156 really didn't help with the electricity problem that degrades the sonics of my system in the evening hours. I resisted the temptation to put it back in before I sold it, to check it out again, and then to maybe even get another one and give it another shot. All the testimonials make it tempting even though I know better from personal experience. That's what I did with the PS Audio regenerators. Hope springs eternal, and I thought or hoped each newer version would work for me only to be disappointed all over again. One of my more recent experiments was with a Core Power Technologies "Deep Core." Like with the Puritan, at first I thought it made a big difference and that I'd finally found a pc that worked.  In the same way, as with the Puritan, after a few weeks it slowly dawned on me that it really wasn't making any improvement in the sonics and things still turned bad at the usual time.  I have no explanation of why this happened with these two units. At first I thought they were great, but then later realized they actually weren't - at least for me.  Maybe I'm just an idiot.   That said, I really like those Puritan power cords and even got a second one for a different unit.

[Early B.]

I was really letdown and disappointed when it became apparent that the 156 really didn't help with the electricity problem that degrades the sonics of my system in the evening hours.

This is a common problem that doesn't have anything to do with the brand of power conditioner. If a PS Audio regenerator didn't resolve the issue, then the problem may be much larger than you can fix on your own.

[Randy]

This is a common problem that doesn't have anything to do with the brand of power conditioner. If a PS Audio regenerator didn't resolve the issue, then the problem may be much larger than you can fix on your own.

The mysterious part is that I get superb sound with pristine electricity during the day. It goes in the toilet once the sun sets, and I can hear a slow degradation as night approaches. I've gone to the Rocky Mt. Power offices and asked what they do differently starting in the evening hours and they said nothing. Should be the same, they said, 24/7 which I doubt on general principals. Anyway, they couldn't offer any suggestions to help me out.

[groovybassist]

Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman is an excellent book for understanding how the brain has evolved and how easy it is to fool the brain, and for the brain to fool itself.  Marketers know this stuff, but the general public doesn’t.

When a manufacturer advertises that you’ll hear X and Y when you use their product, as soon as you read that, your brain is unconsciously “primed” to experience that result.  It is near impossible to shake that priming, even if you consciously try to.  End result - through no effort/fault of your own, you experience that result.  There are many other biases at work and collectively, it’s damn hard to recognize them all and stay objective.

I’d encourage all audiophiles to read this book - it just might change the way you view this hobby and how you’ve been interacting with it.  It’s changed my perspective profoundly.  This isn’t about tastes and preferences, it’s about understanding what others are intentionally doing to create a bias in you and influence purchase decisions.

[Kishore]

Placebo effect similarly affecting dozens of listeners OR one guy not getting it right?

I wonder which is more probable...

You underestimate your subconscious mind and group think- google 'placebo effect' and also check out Blink by Malcom Gladwell.
I have seen very concerned people testifying that taking covid vaccine attracts metals to their bodies-they genuinely believe it. Mind works in crazy ways.

Coming back to PSM156- there have been many who tried it and loved it and many who did not find any major impact. Best is to try in your system and be honest about it.

[Early B.]

Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman is an excellent book for understanding how the brain has evolved and how easy it is to fool the brain, and for the brain to fool itself.  Marketers know this stuff, but the general public doesn’t.

When a manufacturer advertises that you’ll hear X and Y when you use their product, as soon as you read that, your brain is unconsciously “primed” to experience that result.  It is near impossible to shake that priming, even if you consciously try to.  End result - through no effort/fault of your own, you experience that result.  There are many other biases at work and collectively, it’s damn hard to recognize them all and stay objective.

I’d encourage all audiophiles to read this book - it just might change the way you view this hobby and how you’ve been interacting with it.  It’s changed my perspective profoundly.  This isn’t about tastes and preferences, it’s about understanding what others are intentionally doing to create a bias in you and influence purchase decisions.

It doesn't matter whether your brain is fooled -- especially in this hobby -- for many reasons --

1. You're not going to know if your brain is fooled because you need your fooled brain to determine if your brain is fooled

2. 99% of this hobby is all about fooling the brain into thinking you're listening to something that resembles real music and it doesn't -- not even close!

3. it's foolish to spend the kind of money we do on gear and cables -- you gotta be damn near brain dead to do it

4. you also gotta be a bit crazy to participate in an online conversation with strangers about the sonic merits of power conditioners

5. no one with half a brain would take any manufacturer's claims seriously; it's called marketing, not truthtelling, and marketing is 99% bullsh*t.

6. no one cares about expectation bias. If I expect to hear an improvement and I do, then no one can convince me otherwise. It's an experience, and whether it's real or imagined is irrelevant.

7. Each of us intentionally influences our purchase decisions every day. We often give ourselves ridiculous reasons for buying stuff we don't need. Does anyone really need a $2,500 power conditioner??? Nope, but we want one anyway....

8. ...because all of us are in the business of buying a feeling -- the product and price doesn't matter so much.
 

 

[groovybassist]

It doesn't matter whether your brain is fooled -- especially in this hobby -- for many reasons --

1. You're not going to know if your brain is fooled because you need your fooled brain to determine if your brain is fooled

2. 99% of this hobby is all about fooling the brain into thinking you're listening to something that resembles real music and it doesn't -- not even close!

3. it's foolish to spend the kind of money we do on gear and cables -- you gotta be damn near brain dead to do it

4. you also gotta be a bit crazy to participate in an online conversation with strangers about the sonic merits of power conditioners

5. no one with half a brain would take any manufacturer's claims seriously; it's called marketing, not truthtelling, and marketing is 99% bullsh*t.

6. no one cares about expectation bias. If I expect to hear an improvement and I do, then no one can convince me otherwise. It's an experience, and whether it's real or imagined is irrelevant.

7. Each of us intentionally influences our purchase decisions every day. We often give ourselves ridiculous reasons for buying stuff we don't need. Does anyone really need a $2,500 power conditioner??? Nope, but we want one anyway....

8. ...because all of us are in the business of buying a feeling -- the product and price doesn't matter so much.
 

 

I beg to differ.  These biases aren’t just part of the audio world, they affect every part of your life.  Understanding them enables one to make more informed decisions in every aspect of your life.  Additionally, these biases aren’t just planted by marketers and manufacturers - they’re unknowingly planted by friends, family and other trusted parties.  I’m not saying there’s anything inherently wrong with traveling along your merry way based on these biases, although they can cost you money you didn’t need to spend and result in unnecessary issues in other parts of your life.

For me personally, understanding these biases has enabled me to reduce the cost and complexity of my system, while increasing my enjoyment of it.  A win-win from my perspective.

[genjamon]

So how exactly do you use this understanding to reduce the cost and complexity of your system?

[Early B.]

So how exactly do you use this understanding to reduce the cost and complexity of your system?

You gotta fool your brain into accepting the idea that merely reading a book on biases allows one to reduce cost and increase the enjoyment of one's audio system. That's great, BTW, if you pulled that off. It's probably only temporary, though. The upgrade voice is louder than the whisper of the cheaper system.

 

[groovybassist]

So how exactly do you use this understanding to reduce the cost and complexity of your system?

1) I took a very critical look at each thing in my system to determine if it really made a difference (cables, power conditioning, decoupling tweaks, etc).  In all cases bar none, my honest assessment was that I was biased by the feedback of others, they didn’t improve my system and in many cases detracted from it.

2) I took a critical look at my components, why I bought them and their objective performance.  I’ve been a subjective only audiophile for 35+ years, yet I was never really satisfied with my system.  Something was always not quite right, so I churned through a ton of gear over those years.  I’ve now assembled a simple system of objectively high-performing gear, which sounds great together and has enabled me to get off the merry-go-round. It’s amazing how many minor issues in your system disappear when the individual parts and pieces perform objectively better than many of their counterparts.

[groovybassist]

You gotta fool your brain into accepting the idea that merely reading a book on biases allows one to reduce cost and increase the enjoyment of one's audio system. That's great, BTW, if you pulled that off. It's probably only temporary, though. The upgrade voice is louder than the whisper of the cheaper system.

 

Simply reading the book does nothing.  Without conscious action to change, it’s worthless.  Clearly you’re not interested in conscious action to address your own biases.  No harm, no foul - it’s your life.