AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Power Conditioning => Topic started by: jeffreybehr on 27 Dec 2017, 05:23 am

Title: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: jeffreybehr on 27 Dec 2017, 05:23 am: I have currently a 20-amp, 12-outlet Balanced Power Technologies balanced-power conditioner; it feeds all of my system but the projector, the latter only because I can't find an IEC cable end that will fit into the projector's shrouded power inlet. I run two long 11g. Neotec/Furutech powercables to my main amps. I have three dedicated 20-amp branch circuits running to the musicroom's left-hand (feeding the BPT conditioner) and front walls.

For no particular reason but it's time to do something different, I've decided to move the BPT to the front wall and plug all my poweramps into it using much-shorter cables cut from the Neotec cable and using, this time, AudioQuest's relatively new silver-over-red-copper (the 'NRG-1000' series) cable ends. Will also install an AQ 20-amp NRG Edison silver-over-berrylium-copper duplex outlet where the BPT plugs in.

I also plan to buy an AQ Niagara 1000 power filter for the frontend equipment.

Will see how it goes. :)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173400)
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: maty on 27 Dec 2017, 08:59 am: Quote
For no particular reason but it's time to do something different...

Suggestion:

Almost ALL conditioners do not have a DC Blocker inside, I only know of one that has it as optional. It is much cheaper to add an external one and adjusted to the needs of the team. Maybe it is a good idea...
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: maty on 27 Dec 2017, 09:04 am: http://www.audioquest.com/niagara-1000/

I would not buy it!

$999 !!!!!!!!!!

https://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-Niagara-1000-Power-Strip/product-reviews/B01AVM90UC/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewopt_srt?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&sortBy=recent&pageNumber=1
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: Speedskater on 27 Dec 2017, 02:35 pm: How did 'DC Blocker' enter the picture?
In residential areas, DC offset problems are seldom 24 by 7, so it's better to solve the problem than to add a band-aid.
Also many DC offset problems are really high AC line voltage problems.
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: maty on 27 Dec 2017, 03:06 pm: I have VERY BIG problems with DC at mains ALWAYS in my house. And RF/EMI (mains + atmosphere) too. And high voltage, near 240 Vac (Spain/EU: 230 Vac).

How to clean the DC at mains. And ripple too.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.0

Usually it is < 10 millivolts and only when connecting an air conditioner, a hair dryer and other hard with electric motors of the same type but this is not my problem.
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: putz on 27 Dec 2017, 06:14 pm: Quote from: maty on 27 Dec 2017, 09:04 am
http://www.audioquest.com/niagara-1000/

I would not buy it!

$999 !!!!!!!!!!

Why not?
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: jeffreybehr on 27 Dec 2017, 07:30 pm: Quote from: maty on 27 Dec 2017, 09:04 am
http://www.audioquest.com/niagara-1000/

I would not buy it!

$999 !!!!!!!!!!

https://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-Niagara-1000-Power-Strip/product-reviews/B01AVM90UC/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewopt_srt?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&sortBy=recent&pageNumber=1

And? What are you telling us? That's it's too expensive FOR YOU? That you'd prefer to spend thousands more on something else?

Herb Reichert wrting in 'Stereophile': 'Really, folks . . . I am by nature a preacher and pontificator, but as an audio journalist I try, mostly without success, to avoid being a fabulist. And I'm here to tell you, AudioQuest's Niagara 1000 delivered conspicuously—as in 100% double-blind recognizable—more tangibly real, jumpin', jivin', easier-to-follow music than my Brooklyn wall power. It might be the single most important, most high-value component I've auditioned for Stereophile.'
https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-15-audioquest-niagara-1000-hifiman-he1000-v2
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: maty on 27 Dec 2017, 08:16 pm: Too expensive and too much bla bla bla aka audiophile jargon.

You can make/buy a DIY with profesional solutions and much more cheap.

Outlets.

The important ones are those of the equipment (preamp, amp, dac...) and the cable connector to equiment not the Niagara 100.

Direction-Controlled Ultra-Low-Resistance Solid-Core Wiring

With Neotech wires you are OK.

Ultra-Linear AudioQuest AC RF Filtering Capacitors

The bests are Schaffner RF/EMI.

Patented Ground Noise-Dissipation System: 3 banks of direction-controlled ground noise dissipation

I have no idea.

Maybe: http://www.audioquest.com/resource_tools/downloads/literature/learning_modules/Noise-Dissipation_system.pdf

Star quad geometry is the best idea.

Ultra-Linear Noise-Dissipation Technology: More than 18 octaves of AC differential filtering with linear response, optimized for varying line and load impedance

I have no idea. 18 dB.

Maybe: https://www.murata.com/~/media/webrenewal/products/emc/emifil/knowhow/26to30.ashx

At the end:

Quote
Differential mode noise is suppressed by installing capacitors (X capacitors) across the supply line.

Well, my DC & Ripple Blocking system.

Non-Sacrificial Surge Protection: Withstands multiple AC surges and spikes up to 6000V/3000A

A ~~very~~ cheap varistor.

Zero Ground-Contamination Technology: Prevents the noise or surge energy present on AC Line or Neutral from connecting to the AC Ground

It is easy and cheap to make.

-> http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=138229.msg1644983#msg1644983

Quote
Earth loop-breaker boards

-> https://hoppesbrain.com/2017/05/26/earth-loop-breaker-boards/

[IMG] http://hoppesbrain.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/diode-shunt-loop-breaker.png

The ARTICLE, by Rod Elliott (1999)

Earthing Your Hi-Fi – Tricks and Techniques

-> http://sound.whsites.net/earthing.htm

[IMG] http://sound.whsites.net/earth-f4.gif

...
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: Folsom on 27 Dec 2017, 11:55 pm: Dont take this as an agreement with Maty in anyway...

But I have serious doubts about that strip. I would go with a SurgeX first, if you dont want to spend a lot. I can confirm that the design filters with zero drawbacks. Any "loss" or whatever would solely be deficiencies in your equipment or proof that you prefer noise in some way shape or form. (Which doesnt mean you hear the anoise, but rather the effects of enoise)
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: TJ-Sully on 28 Dec 2017, 12:12 am: hey jeffery, that's one helluva setup you got there! :thumb:
I recently purchased a Bryston BIT20 power conditioner and love it.

i was a huge 'naysayer' of power cords and conditioners until i bought a PS Audio cable
for my power amp a few years ago. the difference was noticeable immediately. I even set up a blind test for
my wife and she picked out the improvements right off the bat. from that moment on i was hooked
on sonic improvements through cleaner power. now that the BIT20 is fully integrated into my system
i can work on other aspects :)

cheers
TJ
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: Early B. on 28 Dec 2017, 01:05 am: Quote from: Folsom on 27 Dec 2017, 11:55 pm
But I have serious doubts about that strip. I would go with a SurgeX first, if you dont want to spend a lot.

This is good advice. I replaced a BPT with the P.I. Audio UberBuss and SurgeX, but even the SurgeX by itself will probably sound better than the BPT and provide better protection.
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: jeffreybehr on 28 Dec 2017, 02:28 am: Quote from: TJ-Sully on 28 Dec 2017, 12:12 am
hey jeffrey, that's one helluva setup you got there! :thumb:

...

cheers
TJ

TY; it's taken only about 55 years to get here.

:D

:green:
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: charmerci on 28 Dec 2017, 04:17 am: I was able to get a SurgeX here on AC from Dave of Zenwave which made a sound difference. He modifies them and it's supposed to be much better though I haven't heard it personally. zenwave.com
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: RDavidson on 28 Dec 2017, 05:21 am: Quote from: charmerci on 28 Dec 2017, 04:17 am
I was able to get a SurgeX here on AC from Dave of Zenwave which made a sound difference. He modifies them and it's supposed to be much better though I haven't heard it personally. zenwave.com

For clarification, the SurgeX you bought from ZenWave is stock (unmodified)?
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: maty on 28 Dec 2017, 09:06 am: http://www.zenwaveaudio.com/surgex/

Quote
...will isolate your system from surges originating both inside and outside your home, most surges come from inside the home due to electric motors being switched on and off. Lightning within several miles of your home also cause surges. If you have whole-house surge protection the SurgeX is still a good idea to isolate your equipment from surges inside your home, as well as to filter noise as a result of using MOV based whole-house suppressors. The SurgeX does NOT use MOVs and does NOT dump surge energy to ground.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153645.msg1647460#msg1647460

Quote
In Europe, Schnneider residual current Super immune circuit breaker is a very good idea if you have a dedicated line to audio equipment => additional protection in front the harmonics at mains in polluted environments and networks.

Why?

The electricity network is getting dirtier every day. The widespread use of cheap SMPS, cheap electrical motors, air conditioners (they add DC at mains too).... usually made in East Asia (China). And bad electrical installations in elevators, and...

(https://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_Doc_Ref=PB104472&p_File_Ext=.PNG&p_File_Type=rendition_200_png&default_image=DefaultProductImage.png)

https://www.schneider-electric.com/en/search/inmmunized

https://www.schneider-electric.com/en/search/Super+immune

More cheap and pro solution too.
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: charmerci on 28 Dec 2017, 03:27 pm: Quote from: RDavidson on 28 Dec 2017, 05:21 am
For clarification, the SurgeX you bought from ZenWave is stock (unmodified)?

It's unmodified.
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: Folsom on 28 Dec 2017, 05:17 pm: Maty we still have yet to see any useful information about these immune breakers.
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: maty on 28 Dec 2017, 05:33 pm: http://www.schneider-bgclub.com/catalog/7_Reshenia_za_specifichni_prilojenia/Reshenia%20za%20osvetlenie/Lighting_circuit_guide_EN.pdf

Search: Super immune

http://www.electrical-installation.org/enwiki/Sensitivity_of_RCDs_to_disturbances

Search: Super

Yes, there are not much info in English.

https://www.google.es/search?q=diferenciales+superinmunizados

[Spanish] Ventajas tecnológicas de los Diferenciales Superinmunizados

http://www.emb.cl/electroindustria/articulo.mvc?xid=178

https://www.amazon.es/diferencial-superinmunizado/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Adiferencial%20superinmunizado
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: maty on 28 Dec 2017, 05:54 pm: [Spanish] RADIOFRECUENCIA PROVOCADAS POR MI ASCENSOR (OTIS, VERGONZOSO!)

https://www.audioplanet.biz/t10607-radiofrecuencia-provocadas-por-mi-ascensor-otis-vergonzoso

-> https://www.audioplanet.biz/t10607-radiofrecuencia-provocadas-por-mi-ascensor-otis-vergonzoso#131894

Quote
Hola ,yo me gano la vida como técnico de mantenimiento y antes de dedicarme al mantenimiento de instalaciones me dedicaba al montaje y puesta en marcha de maquinaria ,en una instalación concreta que realizamos en un almacén hortofruticola ,se dieron todas las circunstancias para que los parásitos de la red y los harmonicos dieran todos los problemas imaginables ,muchisimos variadores de frecuencia (muchos enormes mas de 50 cV ,el del ascensor no creo que llegue a 10 cv) y la nave era hermética ,como una nevera para climatizar la fruta en todo el proceso (chapa metálica con relleno de espuma compacta tipo poliuretano) ,despues de colocar un montón de diferenciales superinmunizados (carisimos), la solución definitiva fue poner filtros de entrada y salida en los variadores ,donde trabajo ahora ,no se contemplaba el montaje de variadores por que generaban problemas en sus maquinas y el resto de la instalación ,en verano monte 10 equipos power electronics sd700 (serie alta con filtros de entrada y salida incorporados) y no tengo absolutamente ningun problema ,te he soltado el rollo para que veas que no es algo que me suene de oídas sino que lo he sufrido a fondo ,un saludo

-lo lógico es eliminar el problema en el origen.
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: Folsom on 28 Dec 2017, 06:00 pm: They just stop the breaker from tripping due to some HF hash, like from lights. Not really useful to audio.
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: maty on 28 Dec 2017, 06:22 pm: Then you do not need RF/EMI filters, good ferrites...

First I tried with Schaffner RF/EMI filters. After with Würth 150 kHz ferrites and finally my DC & Ripple Blocker.

Noise + interferences > 150 kHz

* RF/EMI filters and Würth 150 kHz ferrites ( the second best I found works from 300 kHz).

Noise + interferences < 150 kHz

* Capacitors in AC line with very high ripple filtered (and low/very low ESR is a good idea too).
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: Folsom on 30 Dec 2017, 02:42 am: Uhuh...
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: jeffreybehr on 4 Jan 2018, 04:53 am: Anticipating the arrival of the Niagara 1000 (hereafter 'N1'), I removed my BPT Ultra 3.5 from my system and plugged all the frontend equipment into two cheap powerstrips. The first was plugged into the outlet fed by one of my dedicated 20-amp branch circuits and the 2nd was plugged into the first. Ended up with a fair amount of humbuzz from the speakers whether the three poweramps were plugged into the wall*, into the BTP-U3.5 which was plugged into the same wall outlet, or into the audience aR2p plugged into that same wall outlet. My friend and I were not succesful in banishing the humbuzz, but we did reduce it a bit.

This afternoon I got a little brain-whiff**--that I should plug my DIY, heavy-duty, 12g. extension cord into the first of the outlet strips and then the amps into the extension cord's outlets. BINGO--the humbuzz's level decreased a LOT, so that the noise was inaudible more than a couple feet from the main speakers. EXCELLENT!

The N1 arrived this afternoon. I was surprised at how large it is...four to five inches in 'diameter' and c. 20" long.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173774)

Haven't connected it yet, but I'll use sort of the same technique, that of plugging the frontend stuff into the five low-current outlets and the HD extension cord into the single high-current outlet. The three amps stay plugged into the ext. cord. Of course, the N1 is rated at 'only' 15 amps, and the three poweramps could try to draw more than that--but only if I listen at ear-bleeding levels, and I NEVER do that. Even current draw at turn-on is easily managed by manually switching on the amps a few seconds apart.

I think this is going to work well. :)

* the same dedicated 20-amp branch circuit just mentioned
** Some of us get brain-storms, some of us get brain-whiffs. :?
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: jeffreybehr on 5 Jan 2018, 03:01 am: Got the N1 running tonite, with no problems.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173843)

Have the three poweramps plugged into the heavy-duty, 12g. extension cord that mounts two (cheap) duplex outlets; that cord is the RH one in both pics and is plugged into the outlet labeled High-Current. System noise is down a bit but still audible within a foot or so of the main-speaker drivers but not audible farther away than that.

Am tempted to make a higher-quality extension cord using the Neotec UPOCC-copper 11g. powercable and AQ Edison duplex outlets, but that's another project.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173844)
Title: Re: Changing my power conditioning/filtering.
Post by: Folsom on 5 Jan 2018, 03:51 am: Can you draw a diagram of your stuff, including the AC lines?