AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Daedalus Audio => Topic started by: nnck on 4 Jan 2012, 06:02 am

Title: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 4 Jan 2012, 06:02 am
Just wanted to start a thread for my 2-channel system centered around Lou's great DA 1.1 loudspeakers. Hope this is the right place for my personal thread.

After a couple months of waiting, Christmas came a few days late to my place.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55914)


I have a number of pictures of the packaging and unboxing if anyone is interested. Suffice to say everything was packed very very well, and there doesnt appear to be anything damaged in the week-long transit.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55915)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55916)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55917)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/IMG_0246.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/IMG_0224.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/IMG_0250.jpg)


The system as it stands today. Still breaking-in and awaiting the maple stands for these speakers. Will post more on listening impressions and pics with stands when they arrive.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55921)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55922)

Right DA 1.1
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/IMG_0264.jpg)

Left DA 1.1
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/IMG_0266.jpg)

The rest of my sources and electronics (Modwright, VPI, Arcam, Squeezebox, Eastern Electric)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/IMG_0265.jpg)

More of the room
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55926)
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 4 Jan 2012, 06:09 am
Sorry for the goofed-up orientation of these pics folks. Maybe someone can help me figure out why that is happening. The pics all open up in the right orientation on my Macbook. But then they get inserted into the thread a different way  :dunno:
 
Edit: 
Thanks for the suggestions. Got them sorted here. Still messed up in my galleries i think, but will fix that some other time.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: stlrman on 4 Jan 2012, 10:44 am
Congratulations!! :D  They are beautiful !
How do they sound?
Todd
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: jtwrace on 4 Jan 2012, 12:15 pm
Stunning!

Add some room treatments and you'll really be in heaven.   :thumb:
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: Bill Baker on 4 Jan 2012, 03:40 pm
Nice system you have there and it looks like you have an impressive music collection as well. Time to pick a few favorite and sit down for some long nights of listening :thumb:
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: jriggy on 4 Jan 2012, 03:54 pm
Beautiful!!! And another Deadhead with Daedalus  :thumb:

did you AP those beauties?

~J
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: Big Red Machine on 4 Jan 2012, 04:19 pm
Where are you?
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: Kinger on 4 Jan 2012, 06:58 pm
Really beautiful looking speakers you have there.  Listening space looks great as well.  Very nice looking component list......  Just curious, are you set up against the long wall?
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 5 Jan 2012, 01:19 am
hey,  thanks for posting all the photos. fwiw, in a couple of months the speakers will ship with custom cloth covers to protect against scratching etc.

I keep refining the shipping materials and that is the next step. 
I shipped out three pair around the holidays with no damage!!! if you knew fed ex ( or UPS) like I do , you know that's impressive , or really lucky :lol:
thanks,
lou

Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 5 Jan 2012, 02:09 am
Thanks for the interest. Had to go back to work today after a long break, and I was pretty busy catching up so no time to respond. But I'll try to work through some questions now.

Congratulations!! :D  They are beautiful !
How do they sound?

I should wait until I have them on their stands and fully broken in before I go on about them. But I have to say they already sound pretty awesome. Not at all harsh or bright. It has a 'fuller' sound than what I had gotten used to, and a very little bit of added warmth. For my room and my listening habits, this is really what i am looking for. I'll try to update more as it goes along here.

Stunning!

Add some room treatments and you'll really be in heaven.   :thumb:

You read my mind. I really want to do some very simple room treatment. I wanted to start by simply putting something on the wall behind and directly between the 2 speakers. But I dont know what to do exactly. I was thinking about making something (some black panels of some sort?) but I dont know what to use or how to make it. Anyone have some instructions for making something simple for wall treatments. On the other hand, if a panel or 2 could be purchased for say a couple hundred bucks, maybe I would just buy something. I'm open to suggestion here.

Nice system you have there and it looks like you have an impressive music collection as well.

Collecting music has been my only consistent hobby since I was about 10 years old. So I have acquired a bit of a library. It's pretty diverse too. Although I have a small percentage of classic rock, I have shied away from most pop music. It now consists highly of psychedelic rock, folk, electronic, progressive, avante garde, experimental and general outsider music of all sorts.

Beautiful!!! And another Deadhead with Daedalus  :thumb:

did you AP those beauties?

The Dead is a guilty pleasure of mine. Actually, not so guilty I guess. I've become a proud Deadhead for several years now. Say it loud, say it proud "Good Ol Grateful Dead!". And I love to use some of those classic Dead recordings for equipment break-in and testing. Because it sounds great, and also cause I'm pretty familiar with it.

Yup - I 'AP'-ed the speakers as well.

Where are you?

Dont know what you mean? I'm right here...on the internets.

Just curious, are you set up against the long wall?

Yup. They are along the long wall. I get this question a lot. See that door in the last picture between a couple of my CD stands? It kind of wrecks the placement of the speakers along that wall for me. Especially if I ever decided to put a television or screen of some sort between the speakers (which I am undecided on, actually). It's just sort of feng shui as well - the room just doesnt work for me in the other direction. So I realize my speaker placement isnt ideal. The room is a little odd, and it opens up to a another room on one side (you can see in a couple of the pics where the carpet turns to tile).

Right now the speakers are about 8 feet apart and about 1.5 ft from the wall behind them. I am still able to sit about 10 feet away from the speakers in the critical listening position. But I do a lot of off-axis listening as well.

hey,  thanks for posting all the photos. fwiw, in a couple of months the speakers will ship with custom cloth covers to protect against scratching etc.

I keep refining the shipping materials and that is the next step.
I shipped out three pair around the holidays with no damage!!! if you knew fed ex ( or UPS) like I do , you know that's impressive , or really lucky :lol:
thanks,
lou

Lou- You did a great job with this shipment. These boxes arrived with nothing more than a couple minor crinckles on the outer cartons. Inside, everything was nice and tightly packed, so there was no noticeable movement. Paper wrapped around the speakers was all intact (no rips). And another cardboard wrap over that (again all intact). Grills neatly wrapped and taped to the inside. Sturdy foam, and plywood top and bottom.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: Big Red Machine on 5 Jan 2012, 02:23 am
City and state in case you are close enough so we can come hear these?!
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: LadyDog on 5 Jan 2012, 02:29 am
Beautiful speakers.  Lou's stuff is on my bucket list of those to own someday.

Agree, quite the music collecttion.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: Kinger on 5 Jan 2012, 02:55 am
If you are looking for a couple sound panels at less than a couple hundred bucks, definitely check out GIK Acoustics.  They have a manufacturers thread here on the AC and you can get a pack of 3 242 panels for a reasonable sum.  (If you are not handy in making them yourself.......which I am not.)

No issues here with long wall setup.  I'm forced to do the same in my space and while I think my system would sound better on the short wall, I work with what I have :)
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 5 Jan 2012, 02:59 am
City and state in case you are close enough so we can come hear these?!

I'm in the Midwest. You can think of me as in your greater-chicago area.

Agree, quite the music collecttion.

I must admit, I'm a music collector first, audiophile second. Many of the recordings I have would never be considered close to audiophile standards. A few might might even be considered  :o low-fi  :o But regardless, everything sounds better, and I find that I enjoy them all more as I try to get the best tone and sound from my rig.

Last time I counted (which was a few years ago) I had probably about 6 or 7 thousand discs and/or digital recordings and over 1000 LPs. With this crowd, I'm sure this cant be all that unheard of.

If you are looking for a couple sound panels at less than a couple hundred bucks, definitely check out GIK Acoustics.  They have a manufacturers thread here on the AC and you can get a pack of 3 242 panels for a reasonable sum.  (If you are not handy in making them yourself.......which I am not.)

I'll have to give these a look soon. They dont have to be super-fancy or anything - but do they look nice?
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: Kinger on 5 Jan 2012, 03:03 am
That's a HUGE CD and record collection in my book.  Always amazes me how much media some folks have.......  Now that I'm pretty set with my system I'm definitely looking forward to expanding my collection.

I think the GIK panels are pretty attractive and they can even be purchased with pictures on them. (Although at a greatly increased cost.)
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 5 Jan 2012, 03:25 am
I think the GIK panels are pretty attractive and they can even be purchased with pictures on them. (Although at a greatly increased cost.)

Even more intrigued now. I'll be looking into these soon. Any other options I should consider besides these?

Speaking of room treatments, I should mention that all the walls in this room have 'sound-board' installed behind the dry-wall. I'm not sure what this 'sound-board' actually is. It's just something I came across when we were building the house and I had the dry-waller install it in this room, as I knew it was going to be my listening room. I dont know if it is making much difference or how functional it is since it's behind the dry-wall.

Kinger-the diagrams of your listening room in your gallery prompted me to post this one of mine that I drew a while back.

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/Listening-RecRoomv3.jpg)
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: dodgealum on 5 Jan 2012, 03:47 am
Very exciting times! I recall speaking with you on several occasions as you were working through your speaker decision and it is now great to see that you have got the DA-1.1's sitting squarely in your listening room. I can well imagine how great they are going to sound since your system and mine are nearly identical--we even have the same rack! Anyway, be patient with the break in period--they will sound better than most speakers right out of the box but you will hear noticeable improvements after 50-100 hours and then smaller gains as you double that figure. Your pair look beautiful--I'm always interested to see other peoples Daedalus' since no two pair look alike given the different hardwood options and the grain pattern varieties. This is one thing that makes Lou's speakers so special. They have a hand made, one of a kind quality that make them an enduring part of your life and home. Congrats and enjoy!
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: jimdgoulding on 5 Jan 2012, 04:33 am
Nnuk, excellent speakers, IME.  Had the pleasure of divining some music via an earlier edition driven by some way good gear.  Question . . Have you considered firing your speakers into your room's length out from the wall with the door about 4' from the rear of their cabinets?  If you listen to mostly popular music, I suppose I could understand that your room effects to include where your ears are in relation to the wall behind you may be desirable.  But, dude, if you listen to music recorded in real time and in a real acoustic space?  Well, you oughta try it.  Happy to advise.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 8 Jan 2012, 07:31 pm
Congrats and enjoy!

dodgealum- I should thank you and a few others from AC and some other forums who spent the time to answer a number of my questions via email, and even talk to me on the phone at length while on my speaker search. It definitely helps to have other people to turn to for help when making a decision like this.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 8 Jan 2012, 07:36 pm
Update-
Got the maple bases and outriggers yesterday, so I just wanted to update with a few more pics now.

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/IMG_0268.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/IMG_0269.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/IMG_0270.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/IMG_0272.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/nnck/nnck%20audio%20system/IMG_0271.jpg)
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: jimdgoulding on 10 Jan 2012, 03:40 am
http://www.modwright.com/gallery/album.php?s=the-modwright-shop

First and second pictures.  Be well.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 10 Jan 2012, 03:42 pm
http://www.modwright.com/gallery/album.php?s=the-modwright-shop

First and second pictures.  Be well.

Jim-
Are you trying to show me some room treatments?  Or are you just telling me to get a bigger room?  :)
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: vinyl_lady on 10 Jan 2012, 09:55 pm
nnck,

Congratulations on a great purchase. Those DA-1.1s look awesome! As I think I indicated in our PM exchange, the DA-1.1s are great for off axis listening. That is the primary reason I chose the DA-1.1s over the Ulysses--I wanted a wider "sweet spot" and do a lot of off-axis listening. Enjoy your new speakers. As you are finding out, they are a great match with the ModWright amp.

Laura
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 11 Jan 2012, 01:03 am
nnck,

Congratulations on a great purchase. Those DA-1.1s look awesome! As I think I indicated in our PM exchange, the DA-1.1s are great for off axis listening. That is the primary reason I chose the DA-1.1s over the Ulysses--I wanted a wider "sweet spot" and do a lot of off-axis listening. Enjoy your new speakers. As you are finding out, they are a great match with the ModWright amp.

Laura

Laura-
Thanks. And you are right about the Modwright. In fact, I just changed the name of my thread to "nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system". It's just that I have been so excited about these new speakers. But about a year ago, I was just as excited about getting the new Modwright equipment as well.

The speaker break-in is coming along very well. They have nearly 200 hours on them already! (actually a bit over 200 if you can count the break-in Lou started at his shop before he sent them out). My initial impressions still concentrate on the smoothness of the high end. And with the added break-in, I can really understand what people mean about the 'dynamics' of these speakers. I think it's basically what I have been calling a 'fullness' to the sound. With most of the hi-end speakers I have auditioned, the sound is often very resolved and detailed. But what was lacking was the realistic 'attack' and 'decay' to the music in the right places.

I was listening to some of Eddie Prevost's masterful use of the drum kit in the entirely improvisational band AMM last night. The pieces I was listening to were recorded in the early 80s, and they have a sort of free-jazz feel to them. His percussion work isnt particularly loud or noisy here. It's much more restrained and balanced. And yet somehow it still manages to sound just ferocious coming out of these speakers. That's when the term 'dynamic' really hit me. Even throughout much of the quieter passages, the proper sound of the attack and decay of the percussion sounds are amazing. This I feel, gives a very heightened sense of realism to the whole listening experience.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: jimdgoulding on 11 Jan 2012, 12:01 pm
Jim-
Are you trying to show me some room treatments?  Or are you just telling me to get a bigger room?  :)
None of the above but that is funny :wink:.  Meant only to illustrate what I'm taking about.  That's your room scaled up with the approximate speaker placement I've suggested trying.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: jriggy on 11 Jan 2012, 03:51 pm
None of the above but that is funny :wink:.  Meant only to illustrate what I'm taking about.  That's your room scaled up with the approximate speaker placement I've suggested trying.

Agreed
You have great room dimensions and alot of fine gear, so optimal room set-up would give you much better results for your investment.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 11 Jan 2012, 05:05 pm
Agreed
You have great room dimensions and alot of fine gear, so optimal room set-up would give you much better results for your investment.

jriggy and jim- I dont disagree with you. This still might be something I try some day down the road. But there are a lot of little complicating things about placement in that direction that you probably cant see unless you understood everything about the room and it's functions.

But I have a couple questions right off the bat:
Right now the speakers are 8 ft apart, pulled out 1.5 ft from the wall, and I still sit 10ft back when I do critical listening. Isn't this pretty close to ideal for these speakers already? What could I really gain by going the other direction? (I ask in all seriousness, as I consider the idea and re-arranging the entire room).

Also, in order for me to place everything I need in this room with the speakers in the other direction, I'll be going from sitting 10 ft back from the speakers currently, to having to sit about 18-20 ft back (looks like I could get the speakers to be about 10 ft apart). Would 18-20 ft be sitting too far back? How far back from the speakers should you be sitting ideally anyway?
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: jimdgoulding on 11 Jan 2012, 06:09 pm
a) Your triangle is very good but your speakers AND ears are close enough to their back walls that it is influencing the sound (in room frequency response where it matters- at your head) and your speakers ability to let thru a stage when it is part of a recording.  Reflected waveforms are arriving too early;

b) Were you able to place your speakers 8' apart from their center (3' off your side walls) AND sit between 8' to 10' away, then reflected waveforms won't be arriving too soon and corrupt the spaciousness IN a recording and its 3D imagery.  You will notice greater expansiveness and reach-out-and-touch-it rounder imagery within.

Whatever is in the recording.  Of course, in many studio recordings, instruments are patched in at the mixing board and ambience is artificially created.  So, may not be as much benefit there. 


Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 11 Jan 2012, 11:09 pm
b) Were you able to place your speakers 8' apart from their center (3' off your side walls) AND sit between 8' to 10' away...

Still a little confused, Jim. Because frankly, I am already doing this.

Unless you mean that you think the speakers should be 3' away from the wall behind them (currently I'm at 1.5' away). But another thing I should point out is that Lou and some other users have mentioned a few times that the DA 1.1 is not quite as sensitive to placement away from the walls as something like the Ulysses (another point in my decision to go with DA 1.1 vs Ulysses).

Regardless of all that, I'd like to get yours and others impressions of my initial question. Let me phrase it again: What would be more ideal: A) having speakers 8' apart, 1.5' from the wall behind them and sitting 10' away (current placement) or B) having speakers 10' apart, about 3' from the wall behind them and sitting 18-20' away. I'm curious what you think because it would have to be one way or the other in order to get everything else in the room to fit properly for us. My main concern here is the distance I would have to sit away if the speakers were in the other orientation.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: rpf on 11 Jan 2012, 11:20 pm
Great gear and a beautiful looking set-up! Enjoy.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: Zero on 11 Jan 2012, 11:27 pm
Awesome system.

Honestly? I wouldn't go crazy with room treatments in that kind of space and with those kind of speakers.  Maybe something like a simple GIK 242 panel in between the speakers...  but little more than that. Anyways - that's just my take on things.  Enjoy the music!


Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: jimdgoulding on 12 Jan 2012, 12:21 am
Apologies, my man.  I couldn't tell from the pictures or diagram what all else is in the room.  I can't imagine why Lou would say that unless it was to make a new customer more comfortable and I sure don't know what he means.  Waveforms is waveforms and bare walls is bare walls.  That's not to say you aren't getting good sound, my assertion is simply that you could get a lot better, circumstances permitting.  Question:  When you say 18' away, do you mean from the wall or the plane of the speakers?  If it is from the wall and your speakers are out 4' from the the back of their cabinets, then you would be sitting approx 12' to 13' from the plane of the speakers.  That's going to eat up a lot of floor space of your domicile.  I don't know if it's worth it not even if it didn't cause your room is 14' wide and your speakers need to be out from your side walls 15" more or less from the edge of their cabinets.  Haven't been there, haven't done that.  Try it at your leisure if you care to.  If you could sit nearer the apex of an equilateral triangle, then I would be, rather I could be, more encouraged.  But, I think you've had about enough of that.  Ya'll be cool.  jim
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 12 Jan 2012, 01:49 am
Apologies, my man.  I couldn't tell from the pictures or diagram what all else is in the room.  I can't imagine why Lou would say that unless it was to make a new customer more comfortable and I sure don't know what he means.  Waveforms is waveforms and bare walls is bare walls.

No need to apologize Jim. Appreciate the input.

Dont really want to put words in Lou's mouth (maybe he will chime in), but to clarify a bit - He never said that room treatments werent necessary or that placement of the speakers doesnt matter at all. He simply stated that the DA 1.1 was perhaps less dependent on placement in terms of where they stand in regards to rear and side walls than some of his others speakers. I'm sure he didnt mean they wouldnt benefit in some way by optimizing placement.

But back to the issue at hand - When I say that I would need to sit 18-20' away with the speakers in the other orientation, I was actually meaning 18-20' from the plane of the speakers. For reasons I dont want to take the time to explain, the other orientation would require me to put the listening position all the way back down the 25' length of the room, against that far wall. Assuming I have the speakers 3-4' away from the opposite wall, this should make the listening position 18-20' away.

Am I right in assuming that sitting that far away is NOT a good idea? Is it any better or worse than what I am doing currently?
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: jimdgoulding on 12 Jan 2012, 02:25 am
That's out of my realm of experience, Nnck, so I couldn't say.  I think side wall treatment would help in that case, but if you must sit with your back against a wall, well, I speculate that would somewhat reduce what I hoped you could gain.  As regards your room, The Modwright picture is what I hoped you could go for in proportion to your room dimensions.  I would be on familiar ground in that case and enthusiastic for the outcome.

Just to double check, if the front of your Dad's were 4' out from the short wall and 8' apart, center to center, could you sit in an 8' equilateral triangle?  That would make your head at about 11' and some change into the room's length.  Much of the same benefits would be there for you and you could see for yourself.  It's all relative.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: roadkingraw on 12 Jan 2012, 02:56 am
my question is what do you do with the Acoustic Zen Adagios now?
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: dodgealum on 12 Jan 2012, 03:20 am
Nick:

To respond to your question based on my experience (not only with my DA-1.1's but with other speakers, systems and rooms as well) I would say your current set up is a good one. I think that sitting 18-20 feet away from your speakers positioned 10 feet apart (and three feet from the wall behind) will not deliver the high quality sound your system is capable of--it will lack immediacy, staging and realism. I would say it would sound more like background music than real musicians playing in your room. Now, if you can set your speakers up on the short wall firing down the length of your room and position them 6 (or more) feet from the rear wall and 10 feet apart and then sit somewhere in the middle of the room about 12 feet from the baffles the sound may exceed what you are getting with your current set up. This is because the speakers will throw a deeper and more realistic soundstage with more room behind them and you may find the bass response is a little cleaner as well (though perhaps leaner which may or may not be to your liking). This might be worth investigating. If you do, I have found Jim Smith's formula of having the distance between the speakers (measured at the tweeter) 83% of the distance to your ears in the listening position to work out pretty nicely. Note: I did not do the math above but am simply guestimating that 10 feet is around 83% of 12 feet. Also, I concur that the DA-1.1's are likely easier to place than the Ulysses however they do benefit from experimentation so I would encourage you to play around with them. Finally, don't do anything until you have got them fully broken in! My two cents.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 12 Jan 2012, 03:31 am
my question is what do you do with the Acoustic Zen Adagios now?

Well it's a little early to make a decision on that, but selling them a little ways down the road here is a likely scenario (I'll likely start a for sale thread here on AC, but go ahead and PM me if anyone wants to discuss). And dont get me wrong - the Adagios are excellent speakers. I'd highly recommend them to anyone. They are among the most detailed and resolving speakers I have ever heard. They also plumb the deeper frequencies, much like the DA 1.1s, so generally wouldnt require a sub for most people. They simply lack that bit of extra oomph that I had been calling 'fullness', but I now call 'dynamics'. As they often say, they lack that little bit of extra magic, but at a significant cost savings.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 12 Jan 2012, 03:41 am
Now, if you can set your speakers up on the short wall firing down the length of your room and position them 6 (or more) feet from the rear wall and 10 feet apart and then sit somewhere in the middle of the room about 12 feet from the baffles the sound may exceed what you are getting with your current set up.

This would really only be an option if the only purpose the room served was as my personal listening room. As it stands, the room has other uses and I have to live with those limitations. So it sounds like I am better off keeping thing as they stand. I can play around with moving them a little further/less apart, a few inches further or closer to the wall behind them, and toeing-in (or not) after all is broken in.

FWIW, sitting approx 10' from the speakers and having them 8' apart is pretty close to your magic 83% number already. The main issue from my understanding is that the speakers are still a little too close to the wall behind them (and my seating may be a little too close to the wall behind me as well). Do I have that right?
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: jimdgoulding on 12 Jan 2012, 03:48 am
Nothing wrong with your triangle, imo.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: vinyl_lady on 12 Jan 2012, 05:48 am
FWIW, sitting approx 10' from the speakers and having them 8' apart is pretty close to your magic 83% number already. The main issue from my understanding is that the speakers are still a little too close to the wall behind them (and my seating may be a little too close to the wall behind me as well). Do I have that right?

Based on my experiments with speaker location with my DA-1.1s, I don't think the speaker placement from the wall behind them is that big of a problem. You will likely sacrifice a little soundstage depth, but you can get a very acceptable soundstage. After they are broken in, you may want to experiment with slight movements at a time, like a 1/4 inch at a time to find the best bass and midrange integration.

I think Jim Smith's 83% is a good rule of thumb (Jim has a lot of experience setting speakers in a lot of different rooms). I measured my distances the other night and found the distance between my tweeters was very close to 83% of the distance to my ears. It just worked out that way.

I think a bigger issue is with how close the listening position is to the 14' wall behind the listening position. IMO, that wall needs something to disperse/difuse the sound waves. GIK might have something that will work. RPG makes some diffusion panels. In my room I have book and record cases behind the listening position for dispersion and diffusion.

that's my 2 cents FWIW.

Laura
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: jtwrace on 12 Jan 2012, 12:55 pm
In my room I have book and record cases behind the listening position for dispersion and diffusion.
Laura
:nono:  Which doens't do anything...
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: vinyl_lady on 12 Jan 2012, 02:27 pm
:nono:  Which doens't do anything...

Not true. They do an effective job dispersing, diffusing and scattering the sound waves because the books, records and other items create multiple uneven (not flat) surfaces. They are part of the acoustical treatment design engineered by Rives Audio for the room. There is a picture in my gallery.

Laura
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: jtwrace on 12 Jan 2012, 02:31 pm
Not true. They do an excellent job dispersing and diffusing the sound waves because the books, records and other items create multiple uneven (not flat) surfaces. They are part of the acoustical treatment design engineered by Rives Audio for the room. There is a picture in my gallery.

Laura
OK.  So you've measured the affect?  I'd love to see it!

FYI
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91632.msg910697#msg910697

http://www.realtraps.com/video_diffusors.htm


I've never seen a measureable change with bookshelfs or Cd racks.  Never.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: vinyl_lady on 12 Jan 2012, 07:20 pm
OK.  So you've measured the affect?  I'd love to see it!

FYI
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91632.msg910697#msg910697

http://www.realtraps.com/video_diffusors.htm


I've never seen a measureable change with bookshelfs or Cd racks.  Never.

Jason,

I have never been into measurements, I leave that to the engineers. I trust my ears. All I know is that before I put up the bookshelves and filled them with records, books and a few nick-naks, the reverberation and reflection off the back wall was very pronounced, especially at any decent volume level. When I first discussed room treatments with Rives Audio they said I would need treatments on the back wall. I told them I intended to have floor to ceiling book cases filled with books and records across most of the back wall and they said that will work. I noticed a a very audible improvement in the clarity of the music at the listening position with the bookcases before I installed the bass traps, front wall dispersion, side wall absorption and dispersion panels and back ceiling absorption panels. That's all I need to know. I could care less about measurements.

Cheers,

Laura
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: dodgealum on 15 Jan 2012, 05:39 pm
Since the subject has transitioned to room treatments I was wondering if any of you are aware of products that work to reduce bass anomalies and absorb sound that look like art and not audio geek products. For example, if you look at the gallery photos of Dan Wrights listening room he appears to have flat panels that look pretty nice. (I have asked him what they are but he is at CAS right now). I have the ability to place bass traps in the rear corners of my listening (living) room and also would like to hang something above my head on the rear wall to absorb or diffuse or deflect sound. However, because this is our living room and not a dedicated listening space (i.e. "man cave") I cannot use the typical products--they must have a high WAF. Thoughts? BTW, you can normally see my system photos (which show the room a little) on the Audiogon under the same user name but that site is under construction so you may not be able to look there at the moment. Thanks for your suggestions.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: vinyl_lady on 15 Jan 2012, 06:19 pm
Mark, I believe the art panels in Dan's room are made by GIK Acoustics.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 4 Feb 2012, 10:01 pm
Well I believe my DA 1.1 speakers have completely broken in now. I've spent quite a bit of time doing some critical listening the past week or so. All I can say is "OMG!" and "WOW!". And I should add "Holy S***!" and "F***ing-A!"

Seriously, these some mighty impressive speakers. Certainly, the best little ol' me has heard. There really isnt much I could say that hasnt already been covered. But bottom line is that the music just sounds SO REAL. They have a very full, life-like sound that is just palpable. It's so easy to hear the body of the instruments, the attack of the drums - it's like they are just presented to you.

There is some substantial weight to the bottom end, and they also have a (very) slight added midrange warmth. This works great in my room and with my listening habits. IMO, this makes them a bit forgiving. So my high-end audio recordings sound fantastic, and my not-so-high-end recordings sound...well...fantastic! I have A LOT of recordings, so this is important to me - I love music too much to limit myself to only the most pristine sounding recordings.

And to top it all off, I dont hear what I would call a lack of detail at all. I was a little afraid that if anything, this would be where the trade-off would lie with this model. But all the detail I want is still there. When it come right down to it, they are just really EASY to listen to.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: Kinger on 5 Feb 2012, 12:56 am
Awesome.  I've never heard the Daedalus speakers, but hope to some day even though they are out of my price range for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 5 Feb 2012, 06:21 pm
Well I believe my DA 1.1 speakers have completely broken in now. I've spent quite a bit of time doing some critical listening the past week or so. All I can say is "OMG!" and "WOW!". And I should add "Holy S***!" and "F***ing-A!"

Seriously, these some mighty impressive speakers. Certainly, the best little ol' me has heard. There really isnt much I could say that hasnt already been covered. But bottom line is that the music just sounds SO REAL. They have a very full, life-like sound that is just palpable. It's so easy to hear the body of the instruments, the attack of the drums - it's like they are just presented to you.

There is some substantial weight to the bottom end, and they also have a (very) slight added midrange warmth. This works great in my room and with my listening habits. IMO, this makes them a bit forgiving. So my high-end audio recordings sound fantastic, and my not-so-high-end recordings sound...well...fantastic! I have A LOT of recordings, so this is important to me - I love music too much to limit myself to only the most pristine sounding recordings.

And to top it all off, I dont hear what I would call a lack of detail at all. I was a little afraid that if anything, this would be where the trade-off would lie with this model. But all the detail I want is still there. When it come right down to it, they are just really EASY to listen to.

thank you! it really does make the work worthwhile when someone truly appreciates them. I spent a bit of time with John trying to help him select the right model. the DA-1.1 does have very slightly added body and can be a bit more forgiving of lesser recordings which I felt would be important here. Glad it worked out.
thanks again!

lou
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: dodgealum on 7 Feb 2012, 07:32 pm
Hey:

Glad to hear you are enjoying your DA-1.1's. I wonder now that you have them broken in whether you would be willing to share your thoughts on how the DA-1.1's compare to the Acoustic Zen Adagio's which you replaced. I think there may be folks out there who have not heard of Daedalus or have and are interested but have yet to hear the speakers in person who may be wondering how they compare to other models with which they are familiar. I have written and spoken often about how my Daedalus compared with the Harbeth Compact 7ES-2's that they replaced and have gotten emails from folks who appreciated the contrast since that is such a well known design. Anyway, just a thought if you can tear yourself away from your new speakers for a few minutes!

On another note, I was reading in the recent TAS about the design refinements that went into the new Wilson Alexandria XLF. Interestingly, after experimenting with a wide range of exotic tweeter materials David Wilson chose a silk dome for the new model. The reviewer was able to compare the latest with the earlier version and noted an increased smoothness in the upper midrange/lower treble region. Just wondering Lou why you also selected a soft dome for your models rather than some type of metal or exotic and what you think is special about the Eton, which is rarely seen in the field. I was thinking about this last night while listening to some acoustic guitar and then later chamber music and really find the high frequency response on the DA-1.1's to be extended, natural and sweet--lovely to listen to and never drawing attention to that range.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 7 Feb 2012, 10:10 pm
Hey:

Glad to hear you are enjoying your DA-1.1's. I wonder now that you have them broken in whether you would be willing to share your thoughts on how the DA-1.1's compare to the Acoustic Zen Adagio's which you replaced. I think there may be folks out there who have not heard of Daedalus or have and are interested but have yet to hear the speakers in person who may be wondering how they compare to other models with which they are familiar. I have written and spoken often about how my Daedalus compared with the Harbeth Compact 7ES-2's that they replaced and have gotten emails from folks who appreciated the contrast since that is such a well known design. Anyway, just a thought if you can tear yourself away from your new speakers for a few minutes!

On another note, I was reading in the recent TAS about the design refinements that went into the new Wilson Alexandria XLF. Interestingly, after experimenting with a wide range of exotic tweeter materials David Wilson chose a silk dome for the new model. The reviewer was able to compare the latest with the earlier version and noted an increased smoothness in the upper midrange/lower treble region. Just wondering Lou why you also selected a soft dome for your models rather than some type of metal or exotic and what you think is special about the Eton, which is rarely seen in the field. I was thinking about this last night while listening to some acoustic guitar and then later chamber music and really find the high frequency response on the DA-1.1's to be extended, natural and sweet--lovely to listen to and never drawing attention to that range.
Someone else pointed out that Wilson had changed to a soft dome... maybe they're on to something?    When I did the redesign in 2007 I evaluated many tweeters including some of the very 'top rated' popular ones (Revalator etc)and to my ears the Eton won hands down in terms of clear, natural sound. the exotic and metalized domes all were fatiguing and I felt drew excessive attention to the highs... (what is referred to as showroom wow).
In some sense that is legit as some people do want their very expensive speakers to draw attention... to 'stand out', those are certainly the easier sell.  I prefer that the speaker simply be as much an open window to the source as possible, so the natural fiber dome tweeter is a no-brainer. just part of the voicing for an accurate yet non-analytical sound, eh?

on comparing the AZ Adagio, there is a substantial price difference so any comparison would have to bear that in mind.  even if he felt the Adagio are no match for the DA-1.1 it is not a slam on the AZ, Robert Lee did a great job in raising the bar on what a $4000 speaker can do.
of course I like to think the DA-1.1 raises the bar on what a $10,000 speaker can do :wink:

thanks,
lou

Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: Bill Baker on 8 Feb 2012, 12:39 am
I am a fan of ribbon tweeters as well as textile come tweeters. I find that the textile domes offer a smoother, more natural presentation. In many speakers using textile domes, I desire a bit more extension in the upper end which may simply be in the design as they use tweeters I know are capable of a better sense of air. With the Ulysses, I do not find myself wanting more and very happy with the upper end presentation. They never comes across as lacking up top nor are they ever overwhelming in any part of the presentation. Daedalus are still one of my favorite speakers after all these years.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: figcon on 8 Feb 2012, 02:07 am
After owning a lot of speakers over the years, it's pretty obvious to me that Lou has done a great job integrating all the drivers into his different speaker systems. The tweeter is a great example and after so many years listening to Daedalus speakers, the one word we all keep coming to with them is musical.  If a speaker is not balanced properly, which most are not, they won't sound musical, no matter what electronics you throw at it.

One thing that separates Lou's speakers from rest is his belief in using all natural materials in the construction of his speakers. From the unique cabinets, to the driver materials to the surrounds on those drivers, all the materials are found in nature.

I also want to relay a story that serves as an example of another aspect of Daedalus speakers and that is their sensitivity and power handling. I recently celebrated my 60th birthday and my wonderful wife, Hellen, decided to throw me a party. We ate, drank, listened to music on my stereo and then the dancing started. We played stuff very loudly, including Michael Jackson's Thriller, and played it for several hours, with only our bodies tired. I can't think of another speaker I've heard that I could stand to listen to for that long and that loudly. We sure did have a good time.

Oh.....and I know who told Lou about the Wilson speaker using a soft dome. It the best speaker Wilson makes now and should be at it's price...The tweeter they have been using all these years has been the main reason I've never been even the slightest bit interested in owning a pair of their speakers. Great company and great products, but as different from the Daedalus sound as the night is from the day.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 8 Feb 2012, 04:47 am
Hey:
Glad to hear you are enjoying your DA-1.1's. I wonder now that you have them broken in whether you would be willing to share your thoughts on how the DA-1.1's compare to the Acoustic Zen Adagio's which you replaced. I think there may be folks out there who have not heard of Daedalus or have and are interested but have yet to hear the speakers in person who may be wondering how they compare to other models with which they are familiar.

Well, I have to say that these 2 sets of speakers sound quite a bit different from one another. And Lou is right - considering that the DA1.1s cost considerably more, I'd be pretty surprised (not to mention, upset) if they didnt perform quite a bit better. And the short answer is that they most definitely do. But IMO, they especially excel in the areas of the smoother and more liquid midrange that provide so much body to the instrument and vocal sounds, and in the deeper and more extended bass. I really think this has a lot to do with why they sound so natural and musical. And why so many people consider them to be so non-fatiguing.

When I got the Adagios, I was replacing a pair of Vandersteen 2Ci's that I'd lived with for about 25 years! I felt the Adagios were a nice step up. They are all around excellent speakers, well worth the money, and a great value at their price point. Anyone looking for a pair of speakers in that price range can definitely put them towards the top of their audition list. IMO, they do detail (jaw-dropping) and imaging at a level quite close to the DA1.1s. This is most likely due to that circular ribbon tweeter. However, because the sound isnt quite as "full-bodied" in the midrange and bass regions to balance it out, this ultra-level of detail does call attention to itself somewhat. This is not so much of a knock at the Adagios - Frankly, I find that this is what many, many hi-end speakers at that particular price point actually do. A lot of people seem to love that sound. And I cant argue with them really - it can be very striking to hear. And after all, it is all just a matter of personal preference.

I myself, also loved the added detail and the better imaging that I got from the Adagios over the Vandersteens. But for me personally, I decided that if I wanted a speaker that I could stick with (hopefully for 25+ years again), I needed a speaker that approached things in a different way - something that could do the detail and imaging like many of these hi-end speakers, but added a 'bigger', 'fuller' and more balanced sound. I also quickly determined that I was going to have to spend considerably more money.

After I chose the DA 1.1s, and while I was waiting for the new speakers to arrive, I have to say that I was actually a bit worried that I might lose some of that greater detail and imaging I got with the Adagios. I thought that, if anything, that is where the trade off might be. But after a lot of critical listening, I find that all that very fine detail that comes along with the higher frequencies is still present in the DA1.1s - it just doesnt call attention to itself so much. Again, it's personal preference, but this is the type of sound I prefer - 'natural' and 'musical', instead of just 'hi-fi'. So far, I'm thinking I made a great choice.
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 15 Feb 2012, 06:11 pm

Thanks for sharing your journey. Much appreciated.

You asked: 

Quote
I'd like to get yours and others impressions of my initial question. Let me phrase it again: What would be more ideal: A) having speakers 8' apart, 1.5' from the wall behind them and sitting 10' away (current placement) or B) having speakers 10' apart, about 3' from the wall behind them and sitting 18-20' away

For me, a realistic, large soundstage, as 3D as possible, is my first criteria. So I would answer neither option.

Have you tried your speakers in the opposite direction, so you are sitting along the short wall? I would try putting your seat about 1-2 feet from either short wall, try both, and your speakers near mid way into the room, or near where the dividing wall ends.

With only 14' width you will have to have the speakers close to the side walls. Try pulling the speakers as far forward as you can and as far apart as possible. Angle them in to help stop reflections off the side walls. I am talking about having the speakers about 9' away and 9-11' apart. This will give you 12 or more feet behind them. You will give up some bass and impact perhaps, but you will gain a stunning, real 3D soundstage.

Of course, I am highly biased.

Rocket_Ronny
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: diofan56 on 13 Apr 2012, 03:42 am
Hi there!

What does "AP" the speakers mean?

Dave
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: nnck on 13 Apr 2012, 01:43 pm
Hi there!

What does "AP" the speakers mean?

"AP" is an option available for the crossover of most Daedalus speakers:

"With this option we have removed any electrolytic capacitors in our crossovers and replaced them with high voltage poly and teflon capacitors and the highest quality resistors, carefully matching all components for perfect balance. This has been a painstaking process as we didn't just substitute new parts but selected specific capacitors and resistors for optimum synergy."

Read more about it here:
http://www.daedalusaudio.com/AP-Option.html

and see this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=80203.0
Title: Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 13 Apr 2012, 03:00 pm
"AP" is an option available for the crossover of most Daedalus speakers:

"With this option we have removed any electrolytic capacitors in our crossovers and replaced them with high voltage poly and teflon capacitors and the highest quality resistors, carefully matching all components for perfect balance. This has been a painstaking process as we didn't just substitute new parts but selected specific capacitors and resistors for optimum synergy."

Read more about it here:
http://www.daedalusaudio.com/AP-Option.html

and see this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=80203.0
thanks NNCK!
the AP crossover is now standard on the Athena and Ulysses, I highly recommend it on the other models. the AP makes a huge difference in many ways, among them it makes an already easy to drive speaker pretty much effortless for any amp.

thanks,
lou