My Capacitor comparisons: Mundorfs, VCap, Sonicap Platinum, Auricap, etc

Jon L · « **Reply #300 on:** 5 May 2009, 12:25 am »

Quote from: shawnds on 5 May 2009, 12:15 am

HEY Jon If you had to pick between the ampohm alum or the tin bassed on vocals wich do you think has the more natural or real sounding midrange? I plan to order some to take place of jensen aluminum. I have tryed the copper jensen and it is to thick sounding no air compaired to aluminum . Mundorf sfo to thin sounding in the midrange.
Thanks shawn

They are very similar, not unexpectedly since they are built exactly the same except for the aluminum vs. tin foil.

If I had to describe the difference, Tin foil seems to present a *hair* more fine detail but aluminum foil is just a teeny bit smoother in the midrange.

tolvix · « **Reply #301 on:** 6 May 2009, 05:36 pm »

Hello Jon

you thing to recommend for a preamplifier phono??
ampohm tin foil..... or... ampohm aluminium foil..... or.......mundorf silver/gold/oil.....
graces and regards aa

Jon L · « **Reply #302 on:** 7 May 2009, 08:27 pm »

AmpOhm Aluminum Foil Paper In Oil Capacitor

AmpOhm's aluminum foil version of PIO capacitors costs a dollar or two less than the tin foil version. Using common sense and powers of deduction, one would presume these aluminum caps are lower on the sonic totem pole. One would not be entirely correct. To quote the literature:

"AMPOHM paper in oil (PIO) capacitors are hand wound using high purity tin [or aluminum] foil. They are oil impregnated before being assembled and oil filled. The capacitors are then hermetically sealed in an aluminum housing with phenolic resin and rubber end discs. Each lead is hand solder sealed to the eyelets in the end discs. The leads are 1.0mm in diameter and made of tinned copper (0.8mm diameter 0.0033uF and below). All AMPOHM Audio Capacitors are individually hand tested."

Sounds impressive, and both the tin and aluminum versions look and feel exactly the same with same impressive build quality. So it should not have suprised me when the aluminum version sounded very, very similar to the tin version. When I replaced the tin with aluminum (pre-burned-in), I *thought* I heard a slightly rounder, smoother presentation, albeit with a tiny less texture information. However, after some hours and days, I now can't say for sure I still hear those qualities; in fact, most of it just may have been the sound of new solder joint settling in. Sure, some people may hear more differences in different systems, but I wouldn't want to bet my own money in a blind test.

So what I wrote about the tin foil PIO pretty much can be re-written here without significant changes, which is a very good thing. Invariably, someone will STILL ask which one they should get for their amp XYZ. If I had to give an answer, for no good demonstrable reason, I might say go for the tin if your amp is already on the slightly smooth, round side and go for the aluminum if one's looking for a touch more forgiving sound...

At this point, I am pretty much convinced that no capacitor can exactly sound like a PIO cap without actually being PIO, not even polypropylene in oil. The good PIO's just have that density of tone and texture information; it may be at the expense of ultimate extension and definition at the frequency extremes, but for many, it may be a good trade. For those who seek ruler-flat type of frequency response and "neutrality" without any extra "magic," PIO's probably will not be the answer, but these days, there are some great non-oil capacitors out there that sound great. They don't have to be expensive, either, as evidenced by my next-at-bat capacitor, Obbligato Gold.

dweekie · « **Reply #303 on:** 8 May 2009, 01:59 am »

Quote from: Jon L on 7 May 2009, 08:27 pm

evidenced by my next-at-bat capacitor, Obbligato Gold.

Finally, I've been bugging you to try that cap

Thanks for another review. I've been enjoying the Ampohm tin caps in direct replacement of the Obbligato Gold. Both are definitely fine caps for the price.

topround · « **Reply #304 on:** 13 May 2009, 01:11 am »

Just a little update
I have been using (8 ) .10 ampohn tin in oil caps as coupling caps for my tube amp
They have about 200 hours on them, tone is Delicious, great texture, did I mention wonderful tone?
If you love tone like I do you will love what this cap can do.

Some negatives
Maybe I should have used a different cap in this position
I lost air, speed and upper extension and bass is not as tight as the previous polypro caps.

Don't misunderstand me, these are nice caps, but being a PIO in this position made my system loose some things.
I am ordering some .01 platinums to bypass, maybe the combo will be great!
Will let you know
Thanks
Mike

Jon L · « **Reply #305 on:** 13 May 2009, 05:19 am »

Obbligato “Copper” Capacitor

These Obbligato series of capacitors are sold by Diyhifisupply.com and are made to their specs. These are called “Copper” because the casing is made of solid copper, but the internal design is still metalized polypropylene. To quote the website:

“These Obbligato film caps have a solid copper case, soldered copper lead-out wires and individually wrapped. All measure very close to rated value, max 5% but typically 1-2%. Wound tight with no voids and give a very transparent, smooth sound.”

Obbligato caps have long been known to the DIY community as excellent inexpensive capacitors, costing around $5 for coupling sizes. They certainly weigh a ton due to the thick copper casing and feel extremely solid; they do not sound cheap, either. The overall sound seems linear, more so than the PIO caps, with very nicely airy and extended top-end. There is no hardness or glassy artifacts often found in really cheaply-made metalized poly caps while retaining speed and transparency.

The better metalized poly caps in general seem to share a trait, including Obbligato. They tend to have very nice detail and air in upper treble and a “fast” sound, but in the regions below, they tend not quite as developed, especially in the low-midrange/upper-bass area, with the possible exception of Auricaps. Compared to the AmpOhm PIO’s and some of the non-metalized poly caps, Obbligato seems to have less authority and grip in these ranges as well, leading to male vocals like Leonard Cohen sounding a bit less resonant and deep as I personally prefer. Another consequence of this is less PRAT and drive compared to some other caps, especially teflons.

Still, Obbligato Copper is an excellent overall performer and a fantastic deal at their prices. The caveats mentioned are shared by basically all metalized poly caps to some degree and only noticeable in direct comparison to much more expensive caps; they shoud not dissuade users from trying out these overall transparent and airy caps, which are definitely one of the few affordable references out there.

Jon L · « **Reply #306 on:** 13 May 2009, 05:30 am »

duplicate

dweekie · « **Reply #307 on:** 13 May 2009, 06:52 am »

Thanks again for another review. I would like to mention that I don't find too much difference between the Copper version and the Gold, but then again, the price difference is very small as well, so I tend to go with the Gold. I find the Obbligatos to be great metallized poly caps, and I find no major benefit to spend more on other metalized poly caps. For some reason, my ears do not like what the Sonicaps and Auricaps do to the sound in comparison to the Obbligatos. The Obbligato Oil caps actually emphasize the mids at the expense of the sparkle introduced by the metallized poly, but the Oils are an excellent alternative if the Gold or Copper caps are brighter than you like. It also doesn't hurt that the Oil caps are even cheaper.

I've also been running the Ampohm Tin foil caps, and they really sound great. Like most oil caps, they need to be used in moderation. I'm liking the richness of tone. While there is slight roll off in both extremes as mentioned before, it is nowhere near as bad as other oil caps I've tried. Like topround, I thought about adding a teflon but haven't got around to it yet. I am a bit worried the bypass would take away much of the appeal of the cap.

kyrill · « **Reply #308 on:** 13 May 2009, 07:15 am »

Jon

the outer casing of caps, do they not influence their innards "musicality" by their Dielectric Constant?

for instance
Cotton 1.3-1.4
Paper (Dry ) 2.0
Polyethylene 2.2-2.4
Polypropylene 1.5
Polyvinyl Chloride 3.4
Copper Catalyst 6.0 - 6.2
Copper Oxide 18.1 from http://www.clippercontrols.com/info/dielectric_constants.html#V

BillB · « **Reply #309 on:** 13 May 2009, 12:41 pm »

Hmm, this makes me wonder.

I have a preamp that uses small caps on the input (.33uf) and 1uf on the output. I was going to do ampohm aluminums on both ends but now I am wondering if I should do a film on the input and the oil cap on the output?

Maybe do the ampohm PP input with a bypass PIO?

topround · « **Reply #310 on:** 21 May 2009, 09:51 am »

Anyone ever try the Stealth caps from TRT?
I may order some to try.
According to them, they are great(of course)

Mike

face · « **Reply #311 on:** 21 May 2009, 12:12 pm »

Quote

All StealthCaps are custom hand crafted to order. Due to very high worldwide demand, manufacturing lead times (waiting list queues) usually run about 6 weeks.

High demand, I'm not sure if anyone here has ever heard of them besides Mike.

Can't hurt to try, they're not horribly expensive compared to Duelund or Clarity MR's.

topround · « **Reply #312 on:** 21 May 2009, 09:23 pm »

They sure are Stealthy :icon_lol:there is no info to be found anywhere about them!
One has to trust I guess

shawnds · « **Reply #313 on:** 22 May 2009, 01:59 am »

aa I have instaled the Aluminum Amp ohm in my Altec amps and they sound alot like the jensen aluminum . But the midrange is better . Upper and lower are rolled off a little And they have about 20 hours on them and they haven't bloomed out like the jensen alum but I'll keep waiting. Wonder how those paper in wax caps they have are like?
The first driver coupling cap I had in my altecs were paper in wax and the midrange was air city!
I may try the paper WAX AMPOHM . they may be better than the oil for all i know.
Shawn

dweekie · « **Reply #314 on:** 22 May 2009, 02:32 am »

Quote from: shawnds on 22 May 2009, 01:59 am

aa I have instaled the Aluminum Amp ohm in my Altec amps and they sound alot like the jensen aluminum . But the midrange is better . Upper and lower are rolled off a little And they have about 20 hours on them and they haven't bloomed out like the jensen alum but I'll keep waiting. Wonder how those paper in wax caps they have are like?
The first driver coupling cap I had in my altecs were paper in wax and the midrange was air city!
I may try the paper WAX AMPOHM . they may be better than the oil for all i know.
Shawn

It was a rather long break-in period for me, but things opened up in both directions. It never gets to "air city" but it does what it does very well. Please update us as the hours add up.

The Jupiter and the Ampohm wax caps would be a nice comparison.

AudioCap · « **Reply #315 on:** 22 May 2009, 08:43 am »

Quote from: KT on 16 Apr 2009, 08:51 pm

Quote from: Jon L on 12 Apr 2009, 05:47 pm
...I think you'll like the AmpOhm TIN foil PIO. I really like how *music* happens in my room with this cap, and I simply have not been able to bring myself to take it out to try the next cap...

Do AmpOhm make a copper foil cap? The Tin foil PIOs sound like a great cap... based on your positive experience with the tin, do you think it would be worth holding out for the copper version? I'm not sure if one already exists or is even in the works if it doesn't already exist.

How do the AmpOhm compare with the Mundorf Silver in Oil? The Mundorfs seem like they may mate with my system well, but are a bit pricey. AmpOhm prices seem very reasonable.

I, too, am a fan of the Jensen copper PIOs. Funny I don't actually have any running in my system right now. A very musical and natural sounding cap if it synergizes with your system. The AN Kit One 300B with Jensen Copper PIOs on Klipsch Heresies did that hypnotic SET thing that was so captivating.

Best,
KT

Ampohm announced yesterday 22nd May that they are finally launching a range of paper-in-oil, copper-foil capacitors in 630V (0.001uF to 1.0uF) and 300V (2.2uF to 10.0uF).

These should be in circulation by end of June 2009 or possibly early July.

See: http://www.audiocap.net/news117.htm

Cheers,

Matthew

Jon L · « **Reply #316 on:** 22 May 2009, 07:14 pm »

Quote from: dweekie on 22 May 2009, 02:32 am

Quote from: shawnds on 22 May 2009, 01:59 am
aa I have instaled the Aluminum Amp ohm in my Altec amps and they sound alot like the jensen aluminum . But the midrange is better . Upper and lower are rolled off a little And they have about 20 hours on them and they haven't bloomed out like the jensen alum but I'll keep waiting. Wonder how those paper in wax caps they have are like?
The first driver coupling cap I had in my altecs were paper in wax and the midrange was air city!
I may try the paper WAX AMPOHM . they may be better than the oil for all i know.
Shawn

It was a rather long break-in period for me, but things opened up in both directions. It never gets to "air city" but it does what it does very well. Please update us as the hours add up.

The Jupiter and the Ampohm wax caps would be a nice comparison.

I have the AmpOhm wax next in cue, and of course, I already have the Jupiter.

I'll have to try the new copper AmpOhm

HowEVer... I took a detour trying the Naked Russian K72 teflons (courtesy of Josh K), but bypassed with 2200 pF FT1 Teflon. KILLER stuff, but needs the teflon bypass.

BobM · « **Reply #317 on:** 22 May 2009, 07:35 pm »

Just ordered some 1.0uF copper Obbligato's to try out as coupling caps in my DAC. We'll see how it works out.

Bob

KT · « **Reply #318 on:** 22 May 2009, 08:08 pm »

Quote from: AudioCap on 22 May 2009, 08:43 am

Ampohm announced yesterday 22nd May that they are finally launching a range of paper-in-oil, copper-foil capacitors in 630V (0.001uF to 1.0uF) and 300V (2.2uF to 10.0uF).

Thank you for the information. It seemed like they would eventually introduce a copper version if they already had tin and aluminum. I'm curious if they'll be a big step up or just slightly different.

The new beeswax caps look promising, too. So many choices!

Best,
KT

dweekie · « **Reply #319 on:** 23 May 2009, 02:46 am »

Quote from: Jon L on 22 May 2009, 07:14 pm

Quote from: dweekie on 22 May 2009, 02:32 am
Quote from: shawnds on 22 May 2009, 01:59 am
aa I have instaled the Aluminum Amp ohm in my Altec amps and they sound alot like the jensen aluminum . But the midrange is better . Upper and lower are rolled off a little And they have about 20 hours on them and they haven't bloomed out like the jensen alum but I'll keep waiting. Wonder how those paper in wax caps they have are like?
The first driver coupling cap I had in my altecs were paper in wax and the midrange was air city!
I may try the paper WAX AMPOHM . they may be better than the oil for all i know.
Shawn

It was a rather long break-in period for me, but things opened up in both directions. It never gets to "air city" but it does what it does very well. Please update us as the hours add up.

The Jupiter and the Ampohm wax caps would be a nice comparison.

I have the AmpOhm wax next in cue, and of course, I already have the Jupiter.

I'll have to try the new copper AmpOhm

HowEVer... I took a detour trying the Naked Russian K72 teflons (courtesy of Josh K), but bypassed with 2200 pF FT1 Teflon. KILLER stuff, but needs the teflon bypass.

What value K72 is it? I need to check my FT1 teflons to see if they can have their clothes taken off too. I've been using the teflons nude in 0.1uf, but I haven't tried any bypass of it. I didn't think it would need a bypass, but I guess I should try it out!