AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Virtue Audio Owners => Topic started by: virtue on 15 Jun 2009, 04:37 am
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The Virtue ONE and TWO are extremely high resolution amplifiers. As such, they do a pretty good job of passing junk that comes in, right back out. That's why we chose low-noise regulated power supplies. However, customers have taken this to the next level by investing in in batteries, power conditioners and power regenerators. What have you tried? How much did you spend? What works best and where? When should a customer consider upgrading? How do these compare to the Virtue 130w power supply?
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On my former t-amp (trends) the DC offset could be adjusted manually to lower the noise floor.
Does my V-1 have a similar feature?
I've only opened it up to switch the jumpers to by-pass the pot, I didn't poke around inside--
(my speakers are 94+db single driver-when music is playing there's no problem)
Thanks, Don
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There are murata trim-pots on there and we set them at the factory. You may be able to tweak them but I don't expect much benefit. The amps are slightly more noisy than Trends, I've been told... theirs is a simpler design, less power, no sub, etc.
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I don't think the DC offset will lower noise. It's good to have 0 DC for other reasons, but I don't think it helps noise any. Does it?
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I don't think the DC offset will lower noise. It's good to have 0 DC for other reasons, but I don't think it helps noise any. Does it?
Don't know! Thanks for the reply(s) It's not really an issue, when music is playing it's completely irrelevant!
Don
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Just a quick note to say that clean AC power can make a HUGE difference to your sound quality. It's a must do if your home AC is at all suspect.
Good grounding is very important. If you don't know if the gorund is good where you are, have an electrician install a new one. I have a nice 8' ground rod no more than 6' from my audio AC supply and it is a wonderful upgrade.
I also suggest an isolation transformer. I bought and installed my own, but you can find "plug and play" versions for sale. Yet another big upgrade. I bought 2, one for the amps, one for everything else - but so far have used only one and am very happy. Mine are 570VA each. Far more than enough for my usage. Figure up the amount of wattage you think you use and double it for your VA rating. For most t-amp uses 150-250VA will be plenty.
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sorry -dup post
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I feed all the amps into my PS Audio Power Plant 500 power regenerator to get the cleanest and most stable power I can have.
[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/rexk/IMG_2975.jpg[/img
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(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/rexk/IMG_2975.jpg)
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I don't think the DC offset will lower noise. It's good to have 0 DC for other reasons, but I don't think it helps noise any. Does it?
I measured left-right channel, one is 0-4mv and the other is 13-15mv...
Would like to make the other one 4mv too :)
Are these the trim-pots to use to lower the DC offset?
(http://www.issuebroker.com/dc_offset.jpg)
Which one is for the left channel and which one is for the right channel? :)
Thanks.
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Yes, those are the DC offset trim pots.
The one in the bottom of your photo is for the top speaker connectors (Left).
The trim gets very, very touchy around the zero point. But you should be able to lower it some.
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so far I've found that the power here in Edmonton, Alberta Canada is pretty quiet.
I have tried my Felix filters, a PS audio 300 re-generator and an upgraded 24v 250w PS all in different manners and really don't hear a big difference.
funny enough the Felix stops the same amount of noise as the PS Audio but wont regulate the voltage. the upgraded power supply I got was a little quieter than the stock 130w ps, the difference was tiny.
I'm still working on a battery setup
I spent about $40 building 3 Felix filters :) and they are worth the money
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Would this battery pack have any applicability with Virtue amps?
http://www.woot.com/ (http://www.woot.com/)
Specifications:
Battery Cell: Lithium Polymer
Power Capacity: 18000 mAh @ 5v
Rated Input: DC 19V, Max 3500 mA
Rated Output: DC 5-20V, Max 3500 mA
Charge Time: ~4 Hrs
Duty Cycle: 500
Dimensions (W x L x H): 7" x 4 1/2" x 3/4"
Weight: 1 lb
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Gentlemen,
Slightly off the beaten track, but hopefully relevant none the less.
Are you going to be offering a linear power supply for your Sensation Amplifier?
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We have thought about a linear supply and will probably build a prototype to test against large switch mode types.
I will be a few months before either are on the market, tho.....
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I've never had a problem with power abberations at home, but have heard it at an audiofest where nearby factories shut down at 11 PM (in an older industrial area of town) and the grunge suddenly went away.
When building my audio mancave I had (3) 20 amp circuits, each with a single cryo'd 20A duplex receptacle provided just for audio. The (3) circuits were given their own grounding rod. The home itself is 4 years old, out in the country with our own underground electrical service/transformer, all new appliances, and whole house surge protector. So I don't expect much trouble on this count.
At our previous address the house was in a 50 year old subdivision and the wiring was a rats nest with fuses (not breakers). Even then a friend's PS Audio Power Plant had little effect.
BTW I did try a popular battery powered T-amp while in both houses and didn't notice any improvements. So IMO this issue is very localized.
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Has anyone tried the GR Research Battery Power Supply Kit?
I'm curious to see if it really does make quite the improvement as he claims.
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Has anyone tried the GR Research Battery Power Supply Kit?
I'm curious to see if it really does make quite the improvement as he claims.
Curious about this as well. Also curious about how things are sounding at RMAF, where I think some of the Virtue gear is being powered by Red Wine Audio's new battery power supply. I'm guessing it will be a few times more expensive than the GR Research option though.
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I've used both and both are very good.
The Red Wine version is more "elegant" and has some nice features.
AFAIK, they use the same or similar batteries.
There is some info from me about the Red Wine stuff in the RMAF thread here and also on the Red Wine battery thread.
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Has anyone tried the GR Research Battery Power Supply Kit?
I'm curious to see if it really does make quite the improvement as he claims.
Curious about this as well. Also curious about how things are sounding at RMAF, where I think some of the Virtue gear is being powered by Red Wine Audio's new battery power supply. I'm guessing it will be a few times more expensive than the GR Research option though.
It might be more expensive, however. If you consider possibility of powering two components from the same "black lightning" unit, cosmetics, smart board, customer support ( Vinnie might be able to change its output/voltage to accommodate future components/upgrades ) and warranty, it starts to look like an easy choice - at least in my eyes.
Mariusz :thumb:
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( Vinnie might be able to change its output/voltage to accommodate future components/upgrades
I think this is true, at least for the 36V version. There is a place for a 4th battery inside.
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I intend to purchase DC power line noise filter and voltage regulator such as Black module offered by Travagans (http://www.travagans.com/product.htm) to be inserted between DC power output of 30V/130w switching power supply and DC power input of Virtue Audio's One amplifier. The 30V output voltage of switching power supply is reduced to 24V and regulated by the Black module. The purpose of the Black module is to improve noise rejection as I suppose noise level of switching power supply is much higher than linear power supply for any audio equipment.
There is one concern for this configuration: the big capacitance (22000uF ?) present at DC power input of Virtue One might trigger current protection circuit (maximum 3A) of the Travagans's Black filter module (according to finding done by Travagans vendor).
Do you think there will be improvement in sound quality after the Travagans Black module has been installed to filter and regulate DC power output of the switching power supply? Will the big capacitance trigger the current protection circuit and the DC supply to Virtue One amplifier will be shut down?
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Referring to my previous post, a better way to phrase the same question is: what is the initial current drawn from switching power supply when Virtue One is powered up? Apparently the current should be the initial charging current to charge the capacitor at DC power input of Virtue One. Is this initial charging current higher than 3 ampere? I don not have any current meter to make measurement.
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Our big reserve cap is unique in our price/class ... and functions as a dead-short for a micro-volt or so. On turn-on, initial onrush could be well over 20A. The cap on the switch stops most of the arcing and the with the 130w supply, the switch only occaisionally fuses ;-) Click it a few times and it will come back. With batteries - forget it. A welder couldn't do better job of soldering the contacts.
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Your Black module may do well to limit the inrush current. In fact, a lot of switch mode supplies already do this. It's when you get to the really bug supplies that can deliver a lot of current before limiting that the problem arises. Batteries will pop the fuses, for sure.
That is why the new amps will have a soft start circuit. I slows the charge of the big caps, then gets out of the way. The Red Wine battery packs also have this built in, so you would use the switch on the battery pack instead of the switch on the amp.
If you can find out more about the current limiting function of the Black module, we might be able to better judge. Does it reset itself?
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I purchased a custom 30 V PS from Paul Hynes. http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/ (http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/). To say it transformed my Virtue 2 in an understatement. Results I've noticed over the premium PS offered by Virtue (30 V 130W) are: darker background, more authority, and deeper bass. The treble remains the same, a little rolled-off in the highest frequencies. It was expensive mostly due to the weakening dollar.
Jim
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Jim, I'm curious why you'd go with this option rather than batteries? I seem to be reading more and more how batteries are at least as good as a good PS, plus they bring the added advantage of negating any need for power conditioning/filtering.
I'm not trying to be critical of your purchase, just trying to figure this whole power thing out. Stupid me used to think that whatever power supply the manufacturer supplied was all that I'd ever need. :duh:
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Jim, I'm curious why you'd go with this option rather than batteries? I seem to be reading more and more how batteries are at least as good as a good PS, plus they bring the added advantage of negating any need for power conditioning/filtering.
I'm not trying to be critical of your purchase, just trying to figure this whole power thing out. Stupid me used to think that whatever power supply the manufacturer supplied was all that I'd ever need. :duh:
From Mr. Hynes
"These power supplies were designed to exceed the performance of all other supplies currently available for powering digital and analogue audio products including the Optima Red Top battery. The power supplies have an output impedance three times lower than the Red Top battery and this is maintained over a wider bandwidth. This allows three times less reaction on the power supply output, during load current changes. You can hear the difference this makes to your music as there is less signal inter-modulation from the power supply. For DIY enthusiasts the SR1-M shunt regulator module for DC input, and the SR1-MR shunt regulator module with on board energy storage and Schottky rectification for AC input, can be customised for any voltage from 3.3volts to 24 volts and for any current from 0.25 to 3 amps. Maximum SR1-M regulator dissipation is 40 w"
http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page7.html
Sounds like he thinks he has batteries whipped! :o Not sure if that is the end of the story...
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Here is the "Birdseye Lowdown" (whatever that means).
The power supply is half the amp. Good power supplies are big, heavy, expensive. Great ones are even more so. At least they don't smell bad! (unless you fry them)
So.... where is an easy place to cut costs, weight, size? Yep, the power supply. Because the amp will work with a lesser supply - so that what you do. All about trade-offs. Remember the big brute amps and receivers of the 70s? Not huge power by today's numbers, but real strong amps. And even they were under built. You don't see that in common consumer gear today.
What is the best power supply? There isn't one. So a manufacturer has to make a choice. The choice in extreme Hi-Fi is usually big, heavy and very expensive. We are not really in that market, our amps don't cost kilo-dollars. So we offer a choice of power supply levels as well as advice on 3rd party power supplies. They DO make a difference.
Are batteries best? No. They are fairly low noise, of course, but do have some disadvantages. The don't have low impedance at higher frequencies, tho this varies depending on type. Batteries do sound very clean and smooth with our amps. A nice choice for a lot of people. The down side is that some listeners find batteries to be not as dynamic as a good regulated supply.
Are linear supplies best? No. They can sound very, very good if done right. But that gets back to the big, heavy, etc...
Are switching supplies best? No. But they can sound great if well done - very dynamic. It's harder to do a good switching supply for audio than linear. But there are 1000s of switching supplies on the market to choose from. We test and listen to lots of them. Most don't make the cut. We sell or tell you about the ones that do.
Maybe the "best" supply would be a good, regulated battery supply. I've never heard one, but it could have a lot of sonic advantages.
Still, the sound of a power supply can come down to your taste. What is important to you. Just like music. You would like to have a choice, right? ;)
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Thanks very much for those insights...
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That is the best summary I have seen to date. :thumb:
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In my personal experience the batteries won't limit dynamics at all unless they are too small. In fact I think you'll get more dynamics from a good sized batter power supply than with just about any other power supplies.
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In my personal experience the batteries won't limit dynamics at all unless they are too small. In fact I think you'll get more dynamics from a good sized batter power supply than with just about any other power supplies.
I agree with Danny -
If you use a large enough battery (and one with low internal resistance such as sealed lead-acid) - you can obtain HUGE amounts of instantaneous current. If you ever accidentally short an SLA battery with a wire (don't do this! :!:), the wire melts and becomes the fuse. There is THAT much current - and having that kind of high current on demand is essential for dynamics.
Unlike batteries, power supplies need to convert AC to DC. This involves a step-down transformer (which does choke instantaneous current), diode bridge (rectification of AC to pulsed DC, voltage regulation (if it is a regulated supply) - all of which are limited in instantaneous output current. For this reason, you see large storage capacitors to compensate for this (especially in large power amps - it is required or your supply rails will collapse during the transients... just because your wall outlet can supply lot of amps does not mean the power supply can! :nono:).
Going what I like to call "DC Direct" (ala high current battery - thus skipping the entire AC to DC conversion process) gives BIG dynamics, as well as removal from the noise from the AC grid. Even if you have theoretically perfect AC (no noise, perfect 60Hz), you still need to go through the AC-to-DC conversion process of the power supply used. Some are much better than others (and I have read very good things about the quality of the Paul Hynes supplies), but there is noise created in the ac/dc conversion process, there is EMI from the transformers and switching of diodes, and no 12V power supply used in home audio (that I know of) can supply the hundreds of amps required to crank over your automobile engine - but the Optima Red Top certainly can!
Does your home audio amp even draw hundreds of amps - no. But my point is - like Danny mentions - if you are using the right battery for your application, you will get awesome dynamics and current delivery.
Using alkaline AA batteries on the other hand.... :roll: :green:
Not all power supplies are created equal - and the same applies for batteries...
All the best,
Vinnie
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In my personal experience the batteries won't limit dynamics at all unless they are too small. In fact I think you'll get more dynamics from a good sized batter power supply than with just about any other power supplies.
I agree with Danny -
If you use a large enough battery (and one with low internal resistance such as sealed lead-acid) - you can obtain HUGE amounts of instantaneous current. If you ever accidentally short an SLA battery with a wire (don't do this! :!:), the wire melts and becomes the fuse. There is THAT much current - and having that kind of high current on demand is essential for dynamics.
Vinnie
I agree ... a good "12v car" battery can caugh up 100s of amps, it will instantly weld your wedding ring to your car's body if you aint careful ...
you might give it a try :nono: ...
or you can trust google, where "car battery weld wedding ring to car" produces 37,000 hits :thumb:
should be enough in order to NOT limit the dynamics of a, what, 50w or so amplifier ...
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Jim, I'm curious why you'd go with this option rather than batteries? I seem to be reading more and more how batteries are at least as good as a good PS, plus they bring the added advantage of negating any need for power conditioning/filtering.
I'm not trying to be critical of your purchase, just trying to figure this whole power thing out. Stupid me used to think that whatever power supply the manufacturer supplied was all that I'd ever need. :duh:
TraderXfan summed up the reason I went to the Paul Hynes supply. It would be good to do some A-B testing with someone using a battery supply. I've done the comparison with the Virtue 30V 130 W PS as stated above.
Jim
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Guys, if you're using batteries, just remember to build your own soft-start circuit as well. Vinnie's Black Lightening supplies come with them -- just remember to leave the Virtue amp "on" and turn it off from the battery supply! If you turn on the amp after the battery supply is already on - you'll weld the push-button switch every time.
You see, the Virtue amps are quite unique -- they have more capacitance than other "brick" powered amps in the market. This is great for sound, bad for start-up. When we started designing these things they were 30wpc amps... we had no idea that they'd become 90wpc amps hooked up to high-current battery supplies (which we did not embrace initially). The amps love current acoustically, but the switches just can't handle start-up onrush. As a result, the new models will ALL have soft-starts.
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Apologize for late reply as I was rather busy in past two weeks. I did not manage to obtain details on Travagan's Black module from vendor located in Taiwan.
On second thought, big capacitance at DC power input of Virtue One amplifier is to serve as reservoir to supply sufficient instantaneous current to maintain dynamic performance of the amplifier. Inserting the Black module power conditioner between big switching power supply and the amplifier might interfere/defeat original function/purpose of the big capacitance (correct me if I am wrong).
So I decided to look for better power supply instead of power conditioner (unless anyone from Virtue Audio tell me that it is futile and not necessary at all).
Is there soft-start module I can purchase from Virtue online store and incorporate it into Virtue One amplifier? How do I confirm whether such module already incorporated in my Virtue One amplifier (bought half year ago)?
Your Black module may do well to limit the inrush current. In fact, a lot of switch mode supplies already do this. It's when you get to the really bug supplies that can deliver a lot of current before limiting that the problem arises. Batteries will pop the fuses, for sure.
That is why the new amps will have a soft start circuit. I slows the charge of the big caps, then gets out of the way. The Red Wine battery packs also have this built in, so you would use the switch on the battery pack instead of the switch on the amp.
If you can find out more about the current limiting function of the Black module, we might be able to better judge. Does it reset itself?
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We don't yet have such a module on the website yet although it's been designed and is being prototyped. I've specified a quick and dirty little board that you can put between your power supply and the unit - don't even need to open it up. If you bought an amp from us directly, you'll get it free for the price of shipping and handling when it comes out.
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Any ETA on this soft start circuit? Or a schematic you could share?
I haven't used the batteries I bought yet, for fear of problems...
-Tony
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We should see the soft-starts in late December. Ask Michael for the circuit - he designed it.
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We've received a number of suggestions for offering good plug-in supplies.
Linear:
http://www.astroncorp.com/w28.shtml
Transformer:
http://www.antekinc.com/pdf/AN-2222.pdf
http://www.antekinc.com/pdf/PS-3NXX.pdf
Enclosures:
http://www.web-tronics.com/exalelen.html
http://contextengineering.com/index.html
http://www.rselectronics.com/SEO/Aluminum_Enclosures.aspx
http://www.rose-bopla.com/prod_group_pgs/application/Aluminum_Enclosures.htm
http://www.extrutech.com/products/enclosures.html
http://www.boxenclosures.com/
http://www.lmbheeger.com/products.asp?catid=68
http://www.rittal-corp.com/products/index.cfm?n1Id=1&n2Id=63&n3Id=95
http://www.industrial-enclosures.com/
http://www.hammondmfg.com/dwg.htm
http://www.mmmetals.com/pages/extrusion_profiles/aluminum_extrusion_profiles.htm
http://www.wakefield.com/products/fabricated_extruded_enclosures.cfm
Does any one have any experience with these suppliers?
Seth
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The JT Dynamics Antek is considerably more than the Astron, but the Antek is unregulated. Both are fully assembled. What is the advantage of the JT Dynamics?
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The JT Dynamics Antek is considerably more than the Astron, but the Antek is unregulated. Both are fully assembled. What is the advantage of the JT Dynamics?
Other than the fact that the JT Dynamics is hand assembled by Jason and that it comes in a somewhat nicer enclosure, I would conjecture that there is no benefit of the Antek over the Astron. In fact, as you said yourself, as the Astron incorporates a voltage regulating circuit, it might even be moderately superior. Although, as the Antek supply purportedly has a very stable DC output stage, the real-world difference should be minor in most setups.
Now if you were to add a fancy voltage regulating output stage to the Antek (ie, bypass the output capacitors from the transformer and insert one of the regulating circuits acclaimed by Nuuk in this forum) you might have the pinnacle of Virtue PSUs. But, for what it's worth, I am skeptical as to whether this would be worth the increase in price over the Astron for most people (unless of course you could make one of these circuits yourself).
After debating about which high-current PSU to go with myself for my Virtue TWO and incomming Sensation, I have come to the conclusion, that for those wanting to remain congruent with the value-conscientious theme of the Virtue integrated amps, a battery setup like the GR research (or similar DIY kit) is ideal for higher sensitivity speakers which are particularly susceptible to background noise, while the Astron supply is likely the way to go for all other situations. And If you happen to know that you have clean AC, you may be able to stick with one of the lower cost AC power supplies even if you have a high-sensitivity setup.
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I believe the differences between a stock Antek and the JT Dynamic power supply are a pair of 22uf film caps used as bypass for the large electrolytics (cleaner and faster top end), the rigid aluminum enclosure (which you could source elsewhere) and Jason's handiwork. There's no reason you couldn't build an identical ps to the JT Dynamic. Our household opted for the JT because it looks good next to the Sensation and we didn't want kitty to be licking any exposed fuses. I asked Jason to add a couple of changes for my personal JT power supply, and he was very accommodating.
I alternate between the JT Dynamic and Vinnie's Red Wine Audio Black Lightning. They're both great and have more in common than differences- great bass power and extension, beautifully layered three dimensional soundstage, and authority and effortlessness. The battery is quieter and cleaner and more liquid, the JT more punchy, and the highs are a bit more airy, using my approx. 90dB Shahinian Obelisks.
James
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Versus DIY, you're paying for time, skill, support, and capital with the JT Dynamics or Black Lightening supplies. Vinnie's does some interesting proprietary things on his SMART board, the JT is mainly a service offering for those of you who don't want to be cutting sheet-metal, buying the little parts needed for a polished product, and assembling.
To save a buck you can buy the Antek supply or batteries directly over the internet and build them up yourself. For some folks, this is fun and satisfying, more than buying a finished product. I've seen cool boxes made of wood and more minimalistic rigs, like Zman's. For others, a drag.
The Astron is an interesting proposition... it comes "ready to go" from the factory (sans bullet cable) and it's regulated and can be "dialed up" to 30v (or 32v). You can also buy it elsewhere, sometimes cheaper.
What's wrong with the Astron? Not much. However, it's been noted that it's ugly and huge (which some people like actually), buzzes a bit (not affecting output), and isn't available in 240v (correction - I can have them custom made in 240v).
The decision is personal and it's my feeling that these are all high-value options.
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Zman what are you using for an enclosure for your batteries? I have (2) 12v x 12ah and need an enclosure about 12w x 10d x 6h. I found this one at http://www.lmbheeger.com/products.asp?catid=16
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=28110)
A little pricey. But painted black it would look sweet. I spent the money and got a Soneil 2409SR and wiring kit from Mr Dodd hisself, so I either go with a decent enclosure like this or find / build a wood one.
Mind you, now that I think about it, Sean is putting my N3 x-overs into PE .25 piano black speaker cabinets (the plan so far)...... 12 x 10 x 7.5.... Maybe I can buy three .....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=28111)
Hmmm
Regards
Dave
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Zman
I was thinking of going the 'industrial neked' look also ... still might.
KFD
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Light-Echo,
what amp and what batteries are you using?
Isn't it dangerous to be above 10ah
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Zman is correct, and actually I mis-stated, I am using two sealed lead acid 12v x 26ah batteries. I'll post a pic tomorrow if I remember.
I have them sitting at work on a work bench with the charger on them. I've been monitoring how the charger and the batteries have been getting along. They've been sitting at a solidly consistent 27.6v between the two but I've noticed an anomaly where the batteries seem to be switching voltages between themselves, one day they will be 13.9 and 13.6, the next they'll meter out exactly opposite at 13.6 and 13.9. Interesting. Seth says my M-901 is shipping this week. (insert smiley face here)
Regards
Dave
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Zman
Actually what I'll be doing for the first little while after the amp burns in is trying my darnedest to determine if my ears are good enough to notice a difference between the system with the charger continuously on and then with occasional charging. GR Danny seems to think that there is no perceptible difference and if he can't tell, it's unlikely I will. But we shall see. Another more long term observation will be to see if the batteries prefer to be kept topped up or discharged and recharged occasionally. (I actually have 2 other of these batteries as spares) Any thoughts on THAT matter would be appreciated.
Hey Seth. I received my interconnect and wire. Thx man. You guys at Virtue are great!
Regards
KFD
:drums:
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Zman Have you posted your rig here anywhere?
I'm interested
Dave
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Zman
A pic I thought you'd like!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=28187)
Virtue interconnects, speaker cables, USB cable, and cryo'd Tenor and Soprano DIY wire (for the N3's ... I gave all my JPS wire to the Ninja for my x-overs)
Oh a nice little Cardas post in there. Of course you'll know of Zildjian.
The acoustic is a beautiful Garrison my lady gave to me one birthday that I've yet to do more with than tune. Dumb fingers!!!
KFD
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A pic of my battery power supply sans enclosure.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=28209)
Regards
Dave
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Would their be any issues or benefits from using a high performance automotive battery? like say an optima?
How much battery would be needed to take ones system completely off the grid(other than a charging unit), including all sources, dac's, amps, pre's? is this feasable?
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Make sure what you choose is safe to use indoors!
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I suppose power conditioner instead of bank of batteries suit the purpose. Advantage of power conditioner is install-and-forget usage (no charging, deterioration and routine maintenance involved) and saving in installation space.
Considerations include whether the high cost is justifiable by improvement in sound quality and pros/cons between power conditioner and battery in term of the improvement. The main difference between these two technologies is isolation (power conditioner) or independent (battery) from noisy power grid.
Would their be any issues or benefits from using a high performance automotive battery? like say an optima?
How much battery would be needed to take ones system completely off the grid(other than a charging unit), including all sources, dac's, amps, pre's? is this feasable?
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It's like swinging golf clubs indoors. Putter's fine. Driver not so much. Unless you have high ceilings. See? Everything is relative.
I'm using batteries only because the M-901 uses a 24v power supply which is conducive to a simple battery supply set-up. Using batteries eliminates all the concerns of power conditioning, $500.00 power cords, and all the other nonsense that probably wouldn't make much difference to my perceptive abilities. From what I understand all equipment takes the a.c. and turns it to d.c. somewhere in the process. It would seem an intuitive notion that to eliminate that step would be one step towards a more efficient system.
Nonetheless I don't know for sure. I am doing it because I've read in many forums that it's a very positive tweak, it's easy for me to do under my circumstances .... and it's got a sexy kind of fun-ness to it ...
I'll keep posting pics and my thoughts on the matter, if for no other reason than I get all these interesting replies from people that are similarly interested in this stuff.
Regards
Dave
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When someone tries to give an objective opinion on how something sounds, it's subjective at the very best based upon what he can compare it to, and where you the reader can appreciate a similar experience. My opinion on how a battery supply will comparatively sound in my circumstance will be of little value to all of you out there unless I can help you compare it to something you can relate to. I am not going to be able to do one of them snazzy reviews where I can wax poetically and have it mean anything unless we share a common understanding of a given situation. Because I don't have a ton of experience with a bunch of different pieces of equipment which some of you may or may not relate to... I don't think my experience with my particular set up will mean all that much.
That being said, I have always been a lover of music. I believe that a lousy recording of a great piece of music will always trump a great recording of anything else. Will a great sound system help me enjoy my passion more? Only if I play great music through it. At the kind age of 50 I am still a relative newby to all things audiophile....when it comes to audio gear. But I have been a passionate musician for 37 of those years and I know what moves me. If one day I can share with any of you that a particular piece of music moved me, and I was listening to it through my battery powered M-901 and N3 speakers..... well then.... perhaps that is something we can appreciate together.
And I won't need no $500.00 power cord to experience it.
Regards
KFD
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I read somewhere that charging an LSA battery can be 95% efficient. That's pretty amazing isn't it?
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If anybody wants to run their whole system so that it is isolated from the mains, one method is to use batteries with inverters as described at:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/tours/definitive_audio_e.html (http://www.tnt-audio.com/tours/definitive_audio_e.html)
IMHO, the only way to know if battery power is better than a conditioner (and there are conditioners and conditioners) is to have the whole system running from each of them. And then, the difference will be down to how poor your mains system is in the first place (and how good the conditioner is).
As already stated, don't use automotive batteries indoors unless there is adequate ventilation. They give off gasses which can ignite and/or explode.
The other way to use batteries for the whole system is to bypass the AC supply in each piece of equipment and make some provision to connect the DC from the batteries. You may need to regulate that DC, ie in the case of a Logitech SB3 requiring a 5v supply rather than 12v. And if any of your equipment runs off split rails, you will need extra batteries to cover that.
And don't run it all off batteries and sit back and think "that's it". You may still have RFI to worry about too! Anyone for knitting? :wink:
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As already stated, don't use automotive batteries indoors unless there is adequate ventilation. They give off gasses which can ignite and/or explode.
True, but I think it is important to distinguish between older automotive batteries and the relatively recent sealed varieties. The specific batteries discussed in this forum so far have been absorbent glass mat designs. These are sealed and only emit gasses (ie, volatile acid) when under extreme use (when the pressure inside the battery reaches a certain level). This is a fail-safe to prevent explosions - and I don't see the valves openning all to frequently for applications that demand smaller constant currents such as the one discussed. Furthermore, most of the configurations discussed have been in the neighborhood of 10Ah. These are relatively small compared to automotive-size batteries and should limit accumilation of any dangerous levels of gasses to negligible. These batteries are used all the time in in-door UPS applications (ie, alarm systems, computer battery backups, etc).
Maybe cramming the batteries in an air-tight enclosure might be somewhat dangerous, other than that, four the purpose of driving a virtue amp, I would think most modern sealed AGM designs in the sizes we have been looking at (about 10 Ah) should be quite safe.
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If anybody wants to run their whole system so that it is isolated from the mains, one method is to use batteries with inverters as described at:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/tours/definitive_audio_e.html (http://www.tnt-audio.com/tours/definitive_audio_e.html)
IMHO, the only way to know if battery power is better than a conditioner (and there are conditioners and conditioners) is to have the whole system running from each of them. And then, the difference will be down to how poor your mains system is in the first place (and how good the conditioner is).
As already stated, don't use automotive batteries indoors unless there is adequate ventilation. They give off gasses which can ignite and/or explode.
The other way to use batteries for the whole system is to bypass the AC supply in each piece of equipment and make some provision to connect the DC from the batteries. You may need to regulate that DC, ie in the case of a Logitech SB3 requiring a 5v supply rather than 12v. And if any of your equipment runs off split rails, you will need extra batteries to cover that.
And don't run it all off batteries and sit back and think "that's it". You may still have RFI to worry about too! Anyone for knitting? :wink:
The idea of removing the AC/DC conversion coupled with the "clean" power from the batteries is an interesting one to me. Im obviously no electrical engineer but from an intuitive perspective the cumulative aspects of aspects could be significant as the batteries could supply "clean" instantaneious power to the amps and remove "noise" from the signal path thereby resulting in a lower noise floor and improved dynamics by removing the ac/dc conversion process. The invertor solution may yield a benefit but would be a less than potentially "optimal" scenario.
btw i can't see what i am typing as thewindow keeps jumping around as i type....less than optimal for sure...and agravationf.
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I am setting up a power supply for use with both the Virtue Two and Sensation. What type of power jack does the Sensation use?
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It ships with a 4-pin din adapter so you can use the standard bullet 2.1mm/5.5mm plug.
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What brand of inverters are you talking about? I work with whole house inverters in my work and none that I've work with,IMHO are quiet enough to use on high end systems
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Is that the plug that is used with the battery kits?
It ships with a 4-pin din adapter so you can use the standard bullet 2.1mm/5.5mm plug.
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(http://doddaudio.com/images/5a%20battery%20kit.jpg)
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Thanks Trung. :thumb:
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Don
Your welcome.
:wink: