AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: JDUBS on 8 May 2010, 02:31 am
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Guys
Anyone using this Mac program in place of their phono preamp?
http://www.channld.com/pure-vinyl.html
I read the review of the software on enjoythemusic.com:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0310/pure_vinyl.htm
And it seem pretty cool. I'm using a DEQX and its digital input to actively triamp my speakers, eliminating the passive crossover componentry. I really like this setup but don't love the idea of "digitizing" vinyl via the DEQX analog input but Pure Vinyl seems like an interesting alternative.
It seems like it could be as simple as feeding the output of a cart to a pair of step up transformer and from there on to the input of a 24bit / 96khz sound card (the input sampling rate and bit depth need to be the same as the output and the DEQX will take a 24bit / 96khz signal) which would feed a computer (not sure how much computing muscle is needed). The computer does its thing, processing the RIAA curve, and then outputs the signal back through the soundcard which provides a digital output signal for me to feed into my DEQX.
No phono preamp needed...just some step-up transformers. Of course you need a computer and compatible soundcard plus the program itself.
Anyone have any experience using it?
Thanks,
Jim
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Just curious, why bother to go to all the trouble to get a vinyl setup correct if you are just going to digitize it?
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I don't think a step-up transformer will do it.
I'm playing with this ATM. I'm using a 1st generation iMac G5. For now i'm using an RIAA pre-amp driving an Edirol FA66.
The AES paper on digital RIAA by ChannlD is interesting.
dave
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I am running Pure Vinyl as my phono pre-amp. For me the main motivation was cost and the desire to digitize my vinyl for listening in the car & iPod.
The set-up I have is a Music Hall MMF-5, with a Ortofon HMC30 low output MC cartridge, it feeds the microphone preamps of a Focusrite Saffire Pro 26 i/o. Pure Vinyl handles the RIAA equalization and then the the Focusrite also acts as a DAC and it feeds my analog preamp.
I'm very happy with the detail and lack of midrange congestion compared to a Goldring MM cart feeding a Belari Tube Phono Pre.
For me the Pure Vinyl/Mac/Focusrite setup provides a lot of advantages:
- The ability to run different equalization curves for older vinyl
- The ability to digitize vinyl at high quality, so I won't feel compelled to have to redo it in the future.
- A low cost MC phono preamp
- The ability to do bass management of both digital and analog signals to output to a sub.
- The ability to run plug-ins like room correction software, or a compressor to act as a variable "loudness" control for late night low volume listening
- The ability to improve the quality of iTunes playback for a fraction of the cost of Amarra.
Jim C
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How do you like the EQ curves on other/older vinyl?
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How do you like the EQ curves on other/older vinyl?
They seem pretty different from the RIAA, I don't have much that would need it, but I do have some of my father's old jazz & big band LP's and some old classical 78's (need another TT to play those). So it's not something I'm using day to day, but probably will need in a few instances in the future.
Jim C
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bunnyma357,
Jim,
I read this post last night, but was disheartened that Pure Vinyl is only offered through Mac. That could get expensive for me, to buy a Mini, and the software, just for this purpose, since I just assembled the parts for a
HTPC.
What is the lowest level Mini that I should look for used? Does the processor have to be the Intel Core faster ones? Do I need the Superspeed drive models to get the better soundcards? Also the RAM level increased to
handle the Pure Vinyl software?
What about using an Apple TV for this purpose instead?
Is there a PC program that comes close to matching Pure Vinyl in both ease of use, quality of transfer and price?
Thanks,
Lyndon
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Just curious, why bother to go to all the trouble to get a vinyl setup correct if you are just going to digitize it?
Jeff, I completely understand your point and its been my main struggle in incorporating vinyl with my latest (and great imo) speaker setup. I REALLY likely my DEQX and eliminating all passive crossover parts.
I would love to keep the analog signal completely analog, but its not possible if I want to keep my DEQX....and I can't see going back to a "regular" crossover setup. Seems like this one of the better ways of digitizing.
-Jim
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I don't think a step-up transformer will do it.
Dave, I'm suspicious of this too, but the enjoythemusic.com article specifically references just a pair of step-up transformers, directly into a Mac.
-Jim
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Did a little more research on the website. It drives me nuts that this is Mac only...but it doesn't seem to require all that much horsepower, so a low(ish) Mac Mini (1.5ghz or better) suffices. They mention dual core as being better but I'm not sure what the better cpu spec gets you in terms of better Pure Vinyl performance.
This shows you the low cpu utilization on a 2ghz Mac Mini:
http://www.channld.com/pv3pr3CPU.html
Also, there are a number of devices identified that have either USB or firewire interfaces that also provide microphone amplification so that you can run an MC cart into such device and then on to the computer. The RME FireFace 400, in particular, seems to be an attractive option.
http://www.channld.com/pure-vinyl_support_ttc.html
-Jim
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JDubs,
Jim,
Do you think the Pure Vinyl software would work in a 'Hackintosh' model?
After putting out the cash for a laptop last year, and two desktops, I really don't want to go out and buy
another laptop or Mini.
Lyndon
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JDubs,
Jim,
Do you think the Pure Vinyl software would work in a 'Hackintosh' model?
After putting out the cash for a laptop last year, and two desktops, I really don't want to go out and buy
another laptop or Mini.
Lyndon
I don't see any reason it wouldn't work on a Hackintosh - the PV software is available as a free demo download, so you can try it out and experiment.
I'm totally Mac based, so I haven't looked for any PC programs with similar features - my system is a 2.8 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 4 Gigs of RAM. The PV software doesn't require a lot of horsepower or memory - but can use it if you decide to use certain features. For example if you are using Hi-Rez files and want to use the memory play function where the music is buffered to RAM, you would want a fair amount of RAM. Or if you choose to run Plug-Ins like the ARC room correction software I'm trying out, then that will have a much bigger draw on the CPU, especially at higher sampling rates.
As far as the ADC/DAC interface, they run the full range from cheap to expensive, and if you're using it as a phono pre, the quality of the mic preamps is probably more important than getting a higher sample rate. My price point was right around $300 and the Focusrite seemed to be the best sonically, but a little buggy, with so-so software. Another thing to be aware of is that for a lot of the interfaces, when you use higher sampling rates you lose features/flexibility, depending on what you are trying to accomplish it may or may not impact you.
Just using the PV software as a straight phono pre-amp, it sounds very good to me, very detailed without sounding harsh. It doesn't sound "digital", even though to achieve what it is doing there is an extra ADC/DAC in the signal path. Others with more resolving systems may prefer to just stay analog all the way.
Jim C
Jim C
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It drives me nuts that this is Mac only...
It comes down to support... windows is harder to program (to a large extent because the UI can be built without writing a line of code), and it is way easier to support the end user, largely because the Mac is much more consistant. AFAIK channeld is just 1 guy.
dave
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I've really wondered the same thing JDUBS, whether the "damage" done in the RIAA circuitry in a preamp is worse than the "damage" done in ADC-DAC conversion with RIAA done in the digital domain. I wonder if the day will arrive when the answer is yes. I wonder if that day has arrived? It definitely makes sense for digitizing vinyl for recording purposes, but I wonder if it is/will be better than going through a good phono pre.
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It comes down to support... windows is harder to program (to a large extent because the UI can be built without running a line of code), and it is way easier to support the end user, largely because the Mac is much more consistant. AFAIK channld is just 1 guy.
dave
Dave, I hear you on the support issue. I have to imagine that time required for support would need to AT LEAST double if a Windows version would be released - not easy if it is just one guy.
-Jim
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I've really wondered the same thing JDUBS, whether the "damage" done in the RIAA circuitry in a preamp is worse than the "damage" done in ADC-DAC conversion with RIAA done in the digital domain. I wonder if the day will arrive when the answer is yes. I wonder if that day has arrived? It definitely makes sense for digitizing vinyl for recording purposes, but I wonder if it is/will be better than going through a good phono pre.
Exactly my questions, too, Syrah. Would be really cool if this is a solution that's at least as good as a decent phono pre (or better still, as good as a high quality phono pre). Still not sure how I would get comfortable with the whole idea of digitizing vinyl...just seems weird :?
-Jim
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I don't see any reason it wouldn't work on a Hackintosh - the PV software is available as a free demo download, so you can try it out and experiment.
I'm totally Mac based, so I haven't looked for any PC programs with similar features - my system is a 2.8 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 4 Gigs of RAM. The PV software doesn't require a lot of horsepower or memory - but can use it if you decide to use certain features. For example if you are using Hi-Rez files and want to use the memory play function where the music is buffered to RAM, you would want a fair amount of RAM. Or if you choose to run Plug-Ins like the ARC room correction software I'm trying out, then that will have a much bigger draw on the CPU, especially at higher sampling rates.
As far as the ADC/DAC interface, they run the full range from cheap to expensive, and if you're using it as a phono pre, the quality of the mic preamps is probably more important than getting a higher sample rate. My price point was right around $300 and the Focusrite seemed to be the best sonically, but a little buggy, with so-so software. Another thing to be aware of is that for a lot of the interfaces, when you use higher sampling rates you lose features/flexibility, depending on what you are trying to accomplish it may or may not impact you.
Just using the PV software as a straight phono pre-amp, it sounds very good to me, very detailed without sounding harsh. It doesn't sound "digital", even though to achieve what it is doing there is an extra ADC/DAC in the signal path. Others with more resolving systems may prefer to just stay analog all the way.
Jim C
Jim C
I agree with Jim C - its worth a shot, given that you can demo the product for free. Can you tell us more about your hackintosh setup, Lyndon, and if you try it with Pure Vinyl, your success?
Thanks
Jim
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Jim,
I don't have one, but was considering it.
However, a friend who switched completely over to Mac gear for the express purpose of his music, doesn't feel
it would be worth it. Remember, unless you have the complete OS of Snow Leopard, you would be paying
for that as well.
The second video on this page was fascinating to watch his conversion of a Dell Mini though...
http://www.hackintosh.com/
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Dave, I hear you on the support issue. I have to imagine that time required for support would need to AT LEAST double if a Windows version would be released - not easy if it is just one guy.
I think real world figures are 5-10x.
dave
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It comes down to support... windows is harder to program (to a large extent because the UI can be built without running a line of code), and it is way easier to support the end user, largely because the Mac is much more consistant.
Are you a software developer? I don't mean someone who dabbles in it from time to time, but a professional who does it for a living day in and day out.
--Jerome
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I think real world figures are 5-10x.
Where are you getting your information from?
--Jerome
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Not me personally anymore. But i have been doing Mac support for 26 years and have hung out and worked with more than a few as well as done a LOT of beta testing.
dave
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Thought I would add the email I got from the Pure Vinyl guy concerning the Macs.
> If I did look for a Macbook, what would be the minimum requirements to use your Pure Vinyl software program effectively?
The latest model MacBook lacks a Firewire port. This would limit your choices of audio hardware. Any current Mac Mini, MacBook Pro, iMac or Mac Pro machine would be fine (all have Firewire ports). If you want to use the iTunes Music Server feature with Memory Play, having at least 4 GB of RAM is best.
Thank you,
Channel D Support
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Hey guys. I shot Channel D an email to see if they could post to this thread and address folks' questions. I'm particularly interested in hardware requirements and recommended mic preamps.
Hopefully we'll hear from them directly.
-Jim
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Guys, got a response back from Channel D. Understandably, they are very busy and participating here would be tough, but they (Rob Robinson, specifically) did send me a REALLY nice and helpful response. Here it is:
"Hello,
Thanks for the heads-up on the thread, and the invitation to post. As you probably know, it can be very time consuming to contribute to Internet forums and then monitor and respond to follow up posts. However, you can post this response, if you like.
Questions directed to the Channel D support email address found on Channel D website are answered as quickly as possible, and telephone support also is available. Just to clarify some of the issues raised in the thread, however (of course, most if not all of this information can be found in the complete documentation included with Pure Vinyl (the 2.3 application suite) and the Pure Vinyl 3 Preview Release, as well as on our website):
Any dual core Intel Mac Mini has more than enough grunt to handle 192 kHz with Pure Vinyl. That sample rate is recommended, because the RIAA correction is improved compared to lower sample rates (the signal is more "analog-like").
RAM is not an issue, the stock 1 - 2 GB is sufficient, unless, as pointed out, wanting to use the Memory Play feature of the iTunes Music Server, where at least 4 GB of RAM is beneficial. It is do-able even on older machines; an older PowerPC G4 or G5 also can be used, but at 192 kHz, system setup and optimization become more important. As for an Apple TV, that is not a good choice, too limiting (for a music server, that is; can't be used with Pure Vinyl at all). A Mac Mini can do all that an Apple TV can, and more. Besides high resolution digital audio (and phono, with Pure Vinyl): home theater setup with widescreen 1080p HDTV, Netflix streaming video, terrestrial or cable HDTV reception (with a $100 dongle), DVD player? Capably handles all of that (except for Blu-ray, but that's another story; need a separate player)... and the wireless mouse and keyboard are a very capable remote.
For storage, a USB2 pocket drive or NAS are sufficient, speed is not an issue here.
Additional gain will be required besides a MC step-up transformer, can't simply go into line inputs. I believe the enjoythemusic review used additional analog gain available on the computer's audio input, and even then might not have been close to digital full scale input. I think it says a lot that the quality was as good as reported, without even being close to having the optimum setup.
As far as recommending equipment... that is strictly determined by personal budget. If you can afford more expensive preamps or audio interfaces, they will deliver noticeably better performance. It would be nice if the optimum sound quality could be engineered at a low price point, but it is not practical to address all the issues while keeping the price low. The Fireface 400 is a nice, solid, high-value, all-in-one solution for using a low output MC cartridge and supporting 192 kHz, and is one of the few interfaces that also has a balanced high impedance input suitable for MM cartridges. A Lynx Aurora (with Firewire card) or L22/LynxTWO (in a Mac G4 or G5 tower, or Intel tower with an expensive Magma PCI adaptor) combined with our Seta Model L or H phono preamp is noticeably better sounding, but also considerably more expensive. But keep in mind that most of the improvement in sound quality (compared to a standard phono preamp) is due to the RIAA correction in software (presuming a capable gain stage / preamp, which includes the Fireface above and several others), and the additional improvement from having more expensive audio interface hardware, while surely noticeable, is somewhat less by comparison. Diminishing returns applies.
Here is a list of "sound cards" (to use that term loosely):
http://www.channld.com/soundcards1.html
Besides the above list, the software is designed to work with any Mac compatible interface. Bear in mind that there are many more options out there, and it is probably impractical to test them all.
Note that it's also possible to have more than a two-way crossover with Pure Vinyl / Pure Music, by using the AudioUnit plug-ins in conjunction with the built-in crossover. The built-in crossover uses 64 bit internal precision, however, compared to 32 bit for the plug-ins. The capability of the built-in crossover will be expanded in the near future, as will the flexibility of handling multiple inputs, used with a multichannel input ADC, as a virtual line stage preamp with multiple selectable input sources. All of this stuff will then be accomplished tidily in one application.
Support is an important issue when considering introducing a product on the Windows platform. The number of possible system configurations is greatly multiplied. For less technically savvy users, a company would then have to serve as front line support for Windows, in addition to its own products. So rather than divert resources to that platform for the sake of a larger market, better to focus all effort on the Mac platform and deliver really great products taking advantage of all that platform has to offer. Other companies also choose to focus only on the Mac; and some have even dropped Windows, for instance, Apogee.
I hope this is helpful and not too long of an answer.
Rob Robinson
Channel D Support"
The crossover stuff, in particular, has me very intrigued. Really cool stuff!
-Jim
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I can also vouch for how speedy Rob Robinson has been in responding to questions, I had a couple of feature requests, and within hours he gave me workarounds, listed the limitations of the workarounds, and indicated that the features were already in the works in a future release, which is a good indicator that the direction of the software development is in sync with what I'm looking for.
Rob was also very helpful when I talked to him briefly at RMAF in suggesting a MC cartridge, and gave me as much time and consideration as anyone else, despite my lower end system, and at that point I was still just demoing the software.
The crossover has me very intrigued as well, and I just started this thread to get more info on creating a low cost/high value software-based active crossover.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=81402.0
So far, Pure Vinyl has far surpassed what I had planned on using it for, and I thought it was a great value just using it as a MC Phono Pre and Vinyl Archiving software. iTunes enhancement, Crossovers, Plug-In support, are just bonuses that have made real world improvements to my system. And it seems like they are intent on continually pushing the software forward.
Jim C
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Guys, anyone have (any more) experience with Pure Vinyl? I'm really intrigued by the potential for 24/192 digital playback and using the same system to play vinyl. Specifically, a Mac Mini with a RME Fireface 400 used in conjunction with the software to create an actively triamplified system suitable for digital and analog media.
Jim
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Just curious, why bother to go to all the trouble to get a vinyl setup correct if you are just going to digitize it?
To archive it. Something like 70% of vinyl recordings have never been issued digtilly (albeit some for good reason).
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Like the doctor says... to make good music available no where else easily available.
dave
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From Channel D:
"As far as recommending equipment... that is strictly determined by personal budget. If you can afford more expensive preamps or audio interfaces, they will deliver noticeably better performance. It would be nice if the optimum sound quality could be engineered at a low price point, but it is not practical to address all the issues while keeping the price low. The Fireface 400 is a nice, solid, high-value, all-in-one solution for using a low output MC cartridge and supporting 192 kHz, and is one of the few interfaces that also has a balanced high impedance input suitable for MM cartridges."
Tonepub made a good point, possibly for the wrong reason I suspect. The implication here, is that a higher quality archive could be achieved with better equipment. I think there could be the possibility of exceeding most, if not all conventional phono preamp technology, purely in the digital realm, but I don't know that. It's interesting to contemplate. Perfect sound forever a step closer to reality?
neo
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Does anyone have any recommendations for a 2ch MicPre for this purpose? The Channel D Seta is quite expensive.
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Does anyone have any recommendations for a 2ch MicPre for this purpose? The Channel D Seta is quite expensive.
Some are using the Sound Designs USBPre2 which is around $850.
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Some are using the Sound Designs USBPre2 which is around $850.
I'll take a look. I do have an A/D as I have a Lynx Hilo.
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Old thread.
Any recent experience with preamps to use with Pure Vinyl that don't do the RIAA EQ so one can use the software RIAA?