Vinyl Newbies - this is in your topic to chime in

andyr · « **Reply #40 on:** 2 Mar 2009, 10:23 am »

A lot of relevant comments here for those new to vinyl ... but, as I read through all the posts (and, no, I'm not going to re-read them so I'll just hope I do remember what I wanted to remember!

), there were a couple of points which I felt weren't made clearly. So I'll put down my 2c worth:

* while, when I am "seriously listening", I listen to vinyl, say, 95% of the time - because I've been buying LPs for nearly 40 years and have quite a few (and am still buying them

) - I wonder if a "newbie" who has 10 LPs should, seriously, be recommended to plunge into a mainstream vinyl system?

Yes, you can quite easily buy (generally through the Internet, not so much bricks & mortar) second-hand LPs as well as new "audiophile" reissues of pop, jazz & classical ... and some new recording as well, they cost a lot - even used LPs. So buying 500 LPs will cost heaps more than buying the same music on 500 CDs.

And the sound of a $1,000 TT/arm/cartridge/phono stage combo will I suspect be beaten by a $1,000 CDP.

But almost no CDP will sound better than a $20,000 vinyl setup (which is not super hi-end, by any means

).

But if you spend $20K on vinyl hardware ... you'd better have a heap of LPs to listen to, to justify the expenditure!

Just think of the CDs you could buy for the same outlay, if you bought a top-class CDP for $10K!

* While I personally listen to a LOMC (Benz Ebony LP @ 0.28mV) because I believe they sound best, this typically means you need a step-up device as well as your phono stage. Just another layer of complication.

I suggest a top class MM - costing, say US$500-$1K - will outclass most MCs costing double that amount ... or more! And its 5mV output will be fine for any phono stage. Then again, the top MCs will cost many times the cost of that MM ... but will deliver the goods, providing you have the right step-up device.

* If you're serious about vinyl then you need an RCM - another $500!

Plus every 3 years or so, you need a new stylus (retip, in the case of an MC ... which costs more than many MMs!) Compare that to a CD-only environment!

And it's a right royal PITA to have to clean LPs - but if you don't, you'll have a "Rice Bubbles" listening experience!

But if you do, when you play some vinyl, unsuspecting vistors will think they're listening to a CD ... xept it sounds a whole lot better!

* CD playing is so simple by comparison - put the CD in the tray and press "play". In contrast, to get optimal vinyl reproduction, you need to have:
a) adjusted VTF, VTA, bias and azimuth correctly.
b) tracked the no. of hours your stylus has been used, so you haven't got to the stage where it has become a chisel.
c) clean the records with an RCM - in particular, removing all static.
d) perfectly flat LPs!

, and
e) to store them correctly ... and LPs take up considerably more storage space than CDs.

* Of course, some say CDs are on their way out and there's certainly some truth in that. We should all be moving to PC-based music delivery and transfer all of our current CDs & LPs to hard drive. Trouble is, with a big vinyl collection this is a superhuman task!

Regards,

Andy

JCC · « **Reply #41 on:** 2 Mar 2009, 06:37 pm »

Quote from: andyr on 2 Mar 2009, 10:23 am

Yes, you can quite easily buy (generally through the Internet, not so much bricks & mortar) second-hand LPs as well as new "audiophile" reissues of pop, jazz & classical ... and some new recording as well, they cost a lot - even used LPs. So buying 500 LPs will cost heaps more than buying the same music on 500 CDs.

And the sound of a $1,000 TT/arm/cartridge/phono stage combo will I suspect be beaten by a $1,000 CDP. But almost no CDP will sound better than a $20,000 vinyl setup (which is not super hi-end, by any means ).

But if you spend $20K on vinyl hardware ... you'd better have a heap of LPs to listen to, to justify the expenditure! Just think of the CDs you could buy for the same outlay, if you bought a top-class CDP for $10K!

* While I personally listen to a LOMC (Benz Ebony LP @ 0.28mV) because I believe they sound best, this typically means you need a step-up device as well as your phono stage. Just another layer of complication.

I suggest a top class MM - costing, say US$500-$1K - will outclass most MCs costing double that amount ... or more! And its 5mV output will be fine for any phono stage. Then again, the top MCs will cost many times the cost of that MM ... but will deliver the goods, providing you have the right step-up device.

* If you're serious about vinyl then you need an RCM - another $500! Plus every 3 years or so, you need a new stylus (retip, in the case of an MC ... which costs more than many MMs!) Compare that to a CD-only environment!

And it's a right royal PITA to have to clean LPs - but if you don't, you'll have a "Rice Bubbles" listening experience! But if you do, when you play some vinyl, unsuspecting visitors will think they're listening to a CD ... except it sounds a whole lot better!

* CD playing is so simple by comparison - put the CD in the tray and press "play". In contrast, to get optimal vinyl reproduction, you need to have:
a) adjusted VTF, VTA, bias and azimuth correctly.
b) tracked the no. of hours your stylus has been used, so you haven't got to the stage where it has become a chisel.
c) clean the records with an RCM - in particular, removing all static.
d) perfectly flat LPs! , and
e) to store them correctly ... and LPs take up considerably more storage space than CDs.

* Of course, some say CDs are on their way out and there's certainly some truth in that. We should all be moving to PC-based music delivery and transfer all of our current CDs & LPs to hard drive. Trouble is, with a big vinyl collection this is a superhuman task!

Regards,

Andy

I agree with most of what has been listed above, except for the cost. Yes it is true that a moving coil setup is more expensive, but how much more:

1. Pre-preamp (stepup) - It is true that you will need a stepup transformer, and while you can spend $1500, you can also find some that are very good for $300.
2. Cartridge - You can spend thousands ($5000 or more), or you can spend ~$500 and get a very good cartridge. Furthermore, most moving coils can be hotrodded by adding a contour line contact re-tipping for roughly $350. These re-tipping jobs can make a $500 cartridge sound like a $6000 dollar cartridge.
3. Turntable - Yes the $500 turntable might not be good enough, but spending $2000 for something like a VPI Scout is pretty acceptable.
4. Record cleaning machine - This really helps, and the price is $325 and up.

If you go with the above approach, you can have an outstanding moving coil vinyl setup for an additional $2200 to $2600, which will definitely be better than CD's. Is it worth it? It depends upon your passion for the hobby.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #42 on:** 2 Mar 2009, 07:14 pm »

As the topic has to do with newbies....some/most of what JCC & andyr have mentioned above doesn't have too much to do with your collective needs. Their comments well overshoot the mark in this topic...but are helpful to refer to in passing later when you are more invested in the vinyl experience.

I suspect the typical newbie to vinyl wants to get into it for <$1000 with everything....table, phono stage, & cartridge.

Today (new), that's pretty much...

Table choices: Technics Sl-1200, some current Thorens, Denon, Pro-ject, Music Hall or Rega's or vintage tables

Cartridge choices: Moving Magnets from Audio Technica, Ortofon, Grado, Nagoaka, Goldring, and others or vintage (preferably NOS with cartridges)

Phono stage: From Project, Cambridge, Rega, DIY and others or vintage (or move to full featured preamps, integrated's or receivers with MM phono stage)

Optional, but worthwhile: A record cleaning machine. The least expensive I know of it KAB's EV-1 for $169.00. if you have your own hi-suction vacuum cleaner already you can use it's motor and it becomes a very inexpensive option to buy a RCM

The rest, if your budget has some shekels left....would be for the vinyl itself...which can cost as little as US$1.00 per at thrift shops or $30.00 for newly made.

Let's keep it very simple in this topic gents....this is for newbies who are either thinking of getting into vinyl or just gotten into it and are still quite tentative about it.

John

Miney · « **Reply #43 on:** 2 Mar 2009, 10:58 pm »

Thanks John and sorry

if I helped steer the dialog away from the intended direction.

Here's an an interesting article that seems to complement your last post... from Positive Feedback, entitled
$1000 Worth of Sound for $100 (or less): Refurbishing a Vintage Turntable.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #44 on:** 3 Mar 2009, 03:57 am »

No sorries needed, Paul/miney (from anyone for that matter)

Vinyl sounds great and folks are excited about it....not the worst thing to happen to an audiophile

I just wanted to steer the topic back specifically to the needs of the newbie. Many of us tend to talk esoteric stuff amongst ourselves, but we lose the potential newbie in doing so as there is just so much to take in with vinyl (relative to line sources)

This is a pretty busy circle now....and it would be great to see it busier with new, excited vinylista's out there

John

JCC · « **Reply #45 on:** 3 Mar 2009, 02:49 pm »

One other point, is that you can put together a system that beats CD's for a lot less than $20K. The fact is that an outstanding moving coil system can be implemented, but it will cost you ~$2600 more than a good moving magnet system. So start with moving magnet, and you can advance if you catch the fever.

ratso · « **Reply #46 on:** 3 Mar 2009, 08:47 pm »

i (as a REAL noob) thinks this is a good time to mention that anyone that is getting scared off by this talk of $20K systems can get a very nice (and we're talking practically brand new sexy wow looking) setup in the huge vinyl used market. audiogon has all sorts of killer rega's, pro-jects, music halls, etc. get yourself a ferrari red TT and blow your friends minds, and CHEAP too. also many come already setup with like new cartridges (or you can get them cheap too, along with a phonostage preamp if you need one). my whole first system was about $700 but: #1 i bought everything brand new (because i wanted a blue debut III - my wife's favorite color, to get her to say yes of course) #2 i upgraded to a more expensive cartridge. i could have done it a lot cheaper.

JCC · « **Reply #47 on:** 3 Mar 2009, 09:24 pm »

Quote from: ratso on 3 Mar 2009, 08:47 pm

i (as a REAL noob) thinks this is a good time to mention that anyone that is getting scared off by this talk of $20K systems can get a very nice (and we're talking practically brand new sexy wow looking) setup in the huge vinyl used market. audiogon has all sorts of killer rega's, pro-jects, music halls, etc. get yourself a ferrari red TT and blow your friends minds, and CHEAP too. also many come already setup with like new cartridges (or you can get them cheap too, along with a phonostage preamp if you need one). my whole first system was about $700 but: #1 i bought everything brand new (because i wanted a blue debut III - my wife's favorite color, to get her to say yes of course) #2 i upgraded to a more expensive cartridge. i could have done it a lot cheaper.

Right on - With a little bit of common sense you can put together a very good system without spending a small fortune.

low.pfile · « **Reply #48 on:** 3 Mar 2009, 09:33 pm »

I'll chime in to agree with ratso's comment above. You can easily spend less than $1k to get sound that is better than CD.

Based on lots of research and a little listening - and without any prior TT experience, a little over a year ago, I put together my first vinyl set up for just above the price of my DAC for the TT + cart + phono amp ($1600)... higher since I started out with a few tweeks and purchased new. Now I hear the beauty of vinyl. Now I can really appreciate those analog gurus who have amassed years of experience via lots of spins, tweeks, and modifications.

Vinyl is just fun.

And FWIW, I still don't know what cartridge "compliance" is.

ed

ricmon · « **Reply #49 on:** 3 Mar 2009, 09:51 pm »

Quote from: JCC on 3 Mar 2009, 09:24 pm

Quote from: ratso on 3 Mar 2009, 08:47 pm
i (as a REAL noob) thinks this is a good time to mention that anyone that is getting scared off by this talk of $20K systems can get a very nice (and we're talking practically brand new sexy wow looking) setup in the huge vinyl used market. audiogon has all sorts of killer rega's, pro-jects, music halls, etc. get yourself a ferrari red TT and blow your friends minds, and CHEAP too. also many come already setup with like new cartridges (or you can get them cheap too, along with a phonostage preamp if you need one). my whole first system was about $700 but: #1 i bought everything brand new (because i wanted a blue debut III - my wife's favorite color, to get her to say yes of course) #2 i upgraded to a more expensive cartridge. i could have done it a lot cheaper.

Right on - With a little bit of common sense you can put together a very good system without spending a small fortune.

I just wanted to add some reassurance that it dose not take a lot of money to get into vinyl. My first TT was a Pro-Ject Xpersion w/cart for $500.00. But I also had the forsight to purchase my preamp with a phone section. Now if only some one would but my RM9.1 so I can get that SME table

andyr · « **Reply #50 on:** 3 Mar 2009, 10:02 pm »

Quote from: low.pfile on 3 Mar 2009, 09:33 pm

And FWIW, I still don't know what cartridge "compliance" is.

ed

Hi Ed,

Cartridge compliance is a measure of how stiff the suspension is - ie. how much the cantilever changes angle as the arm lowers itself and the full tracking weight comes into play.

There is a relationship between compliance, the weight of the cartridge and the "effective weight" of the arm ... hence, for good tracking, carts with low compliance are suitable for some arms, and carts with high compliance (ie. which I think means very "bendy"

) are suitable for others. Can't tell you which one is better with what, though ... hopefully someone else will chime in.

Regards,

Andy

twitch54 · « **Reply #51 on:** 3 Mar 2009, 10:35 pm »

Quote from: low.pfile on 3 Mar 2009, 09:33 pm

You can easily spend less than $1k to get sound that is better than CD.

While not trying to spoil everybodys party here I must point out that the above quote, on the surface, is not true !

As one of the 'old farts' here I love to see it when you young guys get excited about analog, but remember we do need to realize that there is plenty of good CD material and quality CDP's to play it on at and below 1k.

With respect to the quote above, it actually takes carefull thought and execution to put together a good sub 1k analog rig, whereas one can assemble an Oppo CDP along with an outboard DAC (benchmark, etc) and with good RBCD's (yes they are out there !) put forth a very good set-up.

So, lets keep the enthusiasm up and at the same time be realistic !

orthobiz · « **Reply #52 on:** 4 Mar 2009, 12:03 am »

Quote from: Wayner on 28 Feb 2009, 11:52 am

In my mind, the MC is a black hole to poverty. You don't see too many $5K MM's. In my book, Over priced and Over rated. They should be called OO.

Wayner aa

Umm, is that OO like "ooohh..." or like "uh, oh"

Paul

andyr · « **Reply #53 on:** 4 Mar 2009, 12:15 am »

Quote from: orthobiz on 4 Mar 2009, 12:03 am

Umm, is that OO like "ooohh..." or like "uh, oh"

Paul

Hehe - the former, I suggest!!

Except it's more "oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh"!

It would seem wayner hasn't heard the cream of the LOMCs!

Regards,

Andy

geezer · « **Reply #54 on:** 4 Mar 2009, 02:11 am »

I'm reminded of the reason I went to CDs 20 years ago.

andyr · « **Reply #55 on:** 4 Mar 2009, 02:20 am »

Quote from: geezer on 4 Mar 2009, 02:11 am

I'm reminded of the reason I went to CDs 20 years ago.

And every night I get reminded of why I didn't !

Regards,

Andy

thegage · « **Reply #56 on:** 4 Mar 2009, 03:49 pm »

I think some sort of record cleaning device is essential for new adopters. I know a couple of people who got disenchanted real fast because of noisy records that I was able to clean to very acceptable levels. You don't have to buy a vacuum machine. There are manual methods that I think equal or better results you gte from a vacuum machine. I use the G.E.M. Dandy system--$150, and it has improved LPs that were previously cleaned on a Nitty Gritty. There is also the Mapleshade steam cleaning system at $150.

http://www.gmanalog.com/gm.aspx

John K.

twitch54 · « **Reply #57 on:** 4 Mar 2009, 07:29 pm »

Given the amount of "Technics" support on this forum me thinks this would be a pretty good deal !!

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10050618

I can't imagine them being had much cheaper !

Miney · « **Reply #58 on:** 4 Mar 2009, 08:27 pm »

Quote from: twitch54 on 4 Mar 2009, 07:29 pm

Given the amount of "Technics" support on this forum me thinks this would be a pretty good deal !!

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10050618

I can't imagine them being had much cheaper !

That's a good price - about $75 cheaper than what Kevin sells them for at kabusa.com... but personally, I'd probably order one from Kevin,

because he offers some value adds that I would not want to worry about or take on myself.

Per the kabusa.com website, he performs a "rigorous inspection and makes corrections as required to ensure that every Custom KAB 1200 performs correctly." He'll also install hinges for the dust cover and adds an audiophile mat. Even better, Kevin will help you select a good cartridge, and will install it for free. Match that, Walmart.

Wayner · « **Reply #59 on:** 4 Mar 2009, 10:44 pm »

Quote from: andyr on 4 Mar 2009, 12:15 am

Quote from: orthobiz on 4 Mar 2009, 12:03 am

Umm, is that OO like "ooohh..." or like "uh, oh"

Paul

Hehe - the former, I suggest!! Except it's more "oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh"!

It would seem wayner hasn't heard the cream of the LOMCs!

Regards,

Andy

No, so I've got that going for me. When I hear the cream of the LOMCs, on my death bead, I will receive total consciousness. And that's all she wrote.

Wayner