AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Vandersteen Speakers => Topic started by: goheelz on 31 Aug 2017, 03:14 pm
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=167783)
I'm using Vandy 5A (non-Carbon) with much success, but of course one always needs/wants more, right?
Here's my plan: getting the best amplifier possible for these wonderful speakers. Right now, I'm using a McIntosh MC352 stereo amp along with the Vandy crossovers and subwoofer amplifiers. I'm guessing lower power might be an option? Tubes? Audio Research? I've been advised that AR Ref 75 stereo tube amp might be a good solution.
Please give me your amplifier advice. Tube or Solid State? Three categories: Best amplifier less than 5K, best up to 10K, best at sky's the limit. Hit me with your knowledge Vandersteen 5A experts.
Thanks!
Jim(http://)
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Carey 805 was the best sound I ever heard with the 5A. Consider Qualiton [ Audio Hungry] or Linear Tube Audio as well. The Qualiton amps offer integrated or forth coming mono blocks at a reasonable price. LTA designed by D. Berning has the bang for the buck.
charles
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For the limit Lamm ML2.2
charles
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I really liked my Ayre MX-Rs with my 5As and 7s.
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Thank you very much, @rollo and @dminches. rollo is suggesting the high-quality but medium-to-low powered tube (e.g., SET) amplifier solution. This would be a pretty big change, I'd wager, from the higher powered McIntosh stereo amp that I've got right now. Going in this direction presumes that less power's going to be needed since the Vandy 5A's are bi-amped, at least that seems to be the logic. This is what had me thinking about a medium-powered Audio Research Ref series stereo amplifier as an option. Cary's changed ownership, apparently, and one hears less about them these days . . .
@dminches suggests, by stark contrast, the very high powered Ayre monoblocs. I've heard this kind of Ayre set up with Vandy 7's in the past, and it's been excellent. But maybe that's way more power than necessary?
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The Ayres are not over powered at all. I think the Vandersteens need a decent amount of power. Until Richard developed his own amps he was a big fan of the Ayres.
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Hey.
I've heard VAC and AUDIO VALVE with the 5s and both sounded great. I think George from Mass ran Atmosphere amps with his and really liked the combo. Lots of great stuff out there . Hard part is a way to try it all.
Happy Hunting
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The thing is that they sound great with any amp that is high current (I don't worry about wattage numbers that much) and have zero feedback. That's a key in choosing an amp for Vandersteen's. If you want tubes, the ARC and Aesthetix's are carried by most his Richard's dealers for a reason. I personally LOVE the Atlas mono blocks, but even they stereo amp is killer with it. You have to understand that with those crossovers, your amp is freed up under 100hz or so. That helps any amp push them and why Richard can go with a single ended tube deal on top and SS for the bass.
I'm using an Ayre AX5/20 integrated amp that has a built in high pass filter that is done to Richard's standards. I own new Quatro CT's (black paint) and it not only looks awesome, but the amp drives them very good in a large room that is open to the downstairs. I lose some sound Mostly bass), but the amp drives the heck out of them.
Another amp that I love with Vandersteen's and isn't breaking the bank is the Belles gear. They make dynamite amps at very affordable prices. They are legit and the mono's would be a great pairing with your 5's I once it's released (soon). I know the integrated can drive the newest 5's nicely. You loose a bit all around compared to Ayre, but it's only an 1800 integrated, lol.
The ARC 75 is another wonderful amp and you can't go wrong. I was surprised at how powerful it sounded. Never was running out of steam and we drove the heck out of it in a larger room.
A used VX5/20 can usually be had for about 6200 or so used. Again, a KILLER amp. I know that like Vandersteen, Ayre makes a lot of upgrades and doesn't change the name to a mark 2 or three. I have heard a new VXR 20 and felt it was better than the last time I heard it. Just a bit more warmth which is always nice. JMHO
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Appears that "high-current" as suggested is going to be a requirement for the Vandersteen 5A, but wouldn't I already be getting high current from the MC352 presently in my system?
The issue seems to be: can SET amplifiers --- such as the Cary 85 --- provide enough oomph.
I should emphasize that my philosophy is *significant* upgrades and improvement to the system with each change. Lateral changes don't interest me at this time. The MC352 is very good already, but what if I could do WAY better with, say, an appropriately high-current-capable SET or other tube amplifier(s)?
Such is my thought process . . .
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You're going to get a lot of drive-by opinions with a question like this (and if I were going to throw brands out there, they'd be similar to ctsooner's list). However, if you're considering purchasing through a dealer, I'd give Johnny Rutan @ Audio Connection (http://www.audioconnect.com) a call. Even though I'm nowhere near NJ, I purchased my Quatro CTs (new) from him because he's a straight-shooter and contributes a lot of perspective / expertise to the on-line community. He'll know how to bring the best out of your speaks.
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Dumb question. Does not Vandersteen make amps ??? Yes they do. Sooooooo ?
charles
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Dumb question. Does not Vandersteen make amps ??? Yes they do. Sooooooo ? M7HPA go for it.
charles
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They are $52k per pair. One would be better of spending that on the model 7s than on M7-HPAs to be used with a pair of 5A. I have/owe all these so I speak from experience. The Model 7s are a huge step up from the 5A.
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They are $52k per pair. One would be better of spending that on the model 7s than on M7-HPAs to be used with a pair of 5A. I have/owe all these so I speak from experience. The Model 7s are a huge step up from the 5A.
I don't know anyone who's heard those new $52K amps from Richard V. Having listened a few times to the Model 7, they do seem to be impressive. But I've not heard the Model 5A and Model 7 in identical systems, so it's hard for me to tell how much the Model 7 is actually surpassing the 5A. The designs of Model 5A and Model 7 seem not so different in philosophy . . .
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The 2 best amps I have heard with the Vandersteen 5A's,7's and in fact any Vandersteen speaker, are the Quicksilver V-4's tube mono blocks and the Aesthetix Atlas amp. I owned the 5's then 5A's and used the Quicksilver V4's with the Aesthetix Calypso preamp for 6 years before upgrading the amp to the Atlas stereo amp. I would second talking to John Rutan at Audio Connection about this.
I have heard Richards amps on many occasions and as good as they are I like the Aesthetix better. YMMV and this is just my opinion. You should try and hear these amps with your speakers if possible as only you can tell what you like best.
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How about the Line Magnetic 219ia? It's a beast but if not enough LM Audio makes a mono block pair, the 503-PA. I have the little 216ia and it's great!
Check out donbetteraudio.com
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I have heard the 5A's a few times at RMAF, a beautiful sounding speaker but the 7's are ethereal, both are above my pay grade.
The speaker/amp pairings at RMAF are hit and miss but before Vandersteen came out with with his amps his speakers were usually paired with Acoustic Research amps, that said there have been other pairings.
2011 RMAF - Vandersteen 7's with Audio Research Corp Reference 250 monoblock amplifiers. The 5a's have also been paired with the Audio Research Reference 150 at shows.
(https://i1.wp.com/i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/RMAF2011/IMG_7741a.jpg)
CES 2012 - Aesthetix Atlas with 5a Carbon
(http://audiofederation.com/ces-2012/IMG_2098-aesthetix-atlas-amp-small.jpg)
RMAF 2013 - Dan D’Agostino Momentum Mono-Block amplifiers with 5A Carbon
(http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/D'Agostino_Vandersteen_demo_room.JPG)
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I don't know anyone who's heard those new $52K amps from Richard V. Having listened a few times to the Model 7, they do seem to be impressive. But I've not heard the Model 5A and Model 7 in identical systems, so it's hard for me to tell how much the Model 7 is actually surpassing the 5A. The designs of Model 5A and Model 7 seem not so different in philosophy . . .
I am one of the lucky ones. I purchased a pair of the M7-HPAs 3 months ago and it brought the sound of the Model 7s to a whole new level. Much more depth in the music, greater detail and the subtleties are much more apparent.
My upgrade path was 1: 5As with Ayre MX-Rs; 2: Model 7s with MX-Rs; 3: Model 7s with M7-HPAs.
The change from the 5As to the 7s was also significant. The transition between the tweeter and the mid-range is seamless with the 7s. I did not feel that way with the 5As. The overall sound of the 7s is on a different level compared to the 5As (which I fully enjoyed).
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What I've noticed is that at this price range the differences are subtle, but so real. Folks always want lower priced gear to sound better so they can justify etc... I remember being at Rutan's in NJ and Richard was there. Folks were in the 7 room, but kept going out to listen to the 5ct's in the other room and thinking they were better. It wasn't even close. The 7's had more information and presented it in a much more realistic manner. What happens I feel, is that listeners are 'told' what hifi should sound like. They are 'mislead' (to me) into thinking that the most dynamic speaker or the one playing louder is the best. They are told that some's 'extended' tweeter is a larger stage etc..., when in fact it's false and that said tweeter is goosed a db or two. Even Fremer writes about that often.
Ricahrds amp is fantastic in that in incorporates, top AQ speaker cable, built in Garth Powell type of power conditioner, a built in 144 DBS unit for said speaker cable and of course HRS isolation. Richard loves SET sound on top, so he incorporated that. I have heard the Atlas Eclipse mono's vs Richard's and personally Ricahrds won out. It was close though as I LOVE those upgraded Atlas's. GREAT amps IMHO. I just feel Richard's amp is a bit more defined and has tighter bass with more layering. They really are pretty close, but I remember a drum hit that sounded much more realistic with the Vandersteen. That's all I wrote down. Again, imho. I love both those amps though.
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What I've noticed is that at this price range the differences are subtle, but so real.
i don't think that the differences between the 5As and Model 7s is subtle. It is pretty significant. Certainly other changes in the signal chain can be subtle but that is not the case with these 2 models.
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Love the Atlas monoblocks with my 5A Carbons
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168056)
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That is a sweet setup!
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D, I was talking more about the difference between the Quatro CT and the 5CT. Is there a BIG difference? Well, the 5 has much more bass as it's a larger speaker. The mids are much better since they are a full CT cone. I understand what you are saying though. It's all so subjective. For those of us who don't have enough money to get to even the 5 CT's, the Quatro is perfect. It's a sweet spot in the line as I get a CT tweeter and bass eq with large enough drivers to move a fair amount of air in the room.
The 5's are in no way twice as good as the Quatro and the 7's aren't twice as good as the 5's though. I think that was the point someone was making elsewhere in the thread. I was agreeing with that. I will say though that I owned the Treo's for a year or so and the ceramic tweeter wasn't in the same league as the CT. I guess I should have been more careful in making a blanket statement like I did. You as well as anyone knows how much I respect Richard and his designs. I also respect many others designers and what they are able to pack into a component with more budget to work with. Heck, my Ayre QX5/20 blows away the Codex in every facet from DAC to headphone amp. I have heard differences in Dan D's line also from the lower priced amps that are on the market now (they are released, right?) and his statement line with the milled copper fins that was shown above. There is a reason these guys have separate lines if you would.
I guess to sum it up.....What is major and what is incremental? It's just a personal thing.
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i don't think that the differences between the 5As and Model 7s is subtle. It is pretty significant. Certainly other changes in the signal chain can be subtle but that is not the case with these 2 models.
At some point, it would be wonderful to move up to the Model 7 + M7-HPA monoblocs. List price at $120K for the pairing. Heck, while we've been talking over how to optimize my little Vandy 5A's, the Model 7 list price has bumped up to $57,200.00 per the Vandy website.
Studying on the great comments and suggestions here, I can see that I've been underestimating the kind of power I'd need to get my 5A's optimized. Tube or hybrid tube seems to be the recipe preferred. I'm seeing mention of AR Reference 250 monoblocs, Aesthetix Atlas monoblocs, D'Agostino monoblocs. Ayre monoblocs are more svelte (and I've heard them sounding very good with the 5's and 7's) but still big power. Observing that RV is building his own monoblocs to produce 600W tells me something about his views on the subject, even though when I asked him directly via e-mail he deferred to his dealers' recommendations. One dealer recommended the AR Ref 75 stereo tube amp, but I'm starting to think that's not enough juice.
A few products that have crossed my mind for this application but no one has mentioned: PS Audio (tube hybrid) and McIntosh (solid state or tube) monoblocs. Any thoughts about these? Was thinking of, say, McIntosh MC601 (solid state, 600W), McIntosh McIntosh MC2301 (tube) or maybe the new PS Audio BHK amps. I'm already into McIntosh products, and so it would keep me in the family, as it were, if I went with Mac.
Does it go without saying that I'd probably go with something second hand or well-discounted?
Thanks, guys!
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Dear all Vandersteen lovers;) im desperatelly trying to fall in love with a pair of 5a that i accidently purchased. It is not easy at all. Im seriously lacking high frequency ( treble ) and the middle. The sound is like it is hidden. Is this normal sound for 5a? Ps im drivining it with sub powered off as my current integrated t+a pa3000hv doest not allow the high pass installation. Do i do something seriously wrong? On another note, does any of you have heard 5a with devialet? Devialet has the hi pass inside and i m considering it as an amp for the 5as.
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Guys, I've heard the 5ct's in a large room powered by the ARC 75's and it was wonderful. Plenty of power. Plenty of drive. Are they better with larger amps? Yes, as long as they are zero feedback amps. I personally don't like Mac's. Just not my cup of tea for many reasons.
As for the last post, which crossover are you running? I use an integrated amp and had Ayre install Ricahrd's high pass into the amp itself. I have heard the Quatro's with the Devailet and personally felt I lost the size of the sound and just didn't like it, but that's my ear.
What do you mean the sub powered off? Do you have an external sub?
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I'm partial to Devialet amps. Currently using a Expert 400 with Dynaudio Focus 360 speakers with outstanding results. Pretty sure that speaker active matching (SAM) with the 5A is available.
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Dear all Vandersteen lovers;) im desperatelly trying to fall in love with a pair of 5a that i accidently purchased. It is not easy at all. Im seriously lacking high frequency ( treble ) and the middle. The sound is like it is hidden. Is this normal sound for 5a? Ps im drivining it with sub powered off as my current integrated t+a pa3000hv doest not allow the high pass installation. Do i do something seriously wrong? On another note, does any of you have heard 5a with devialet? Devialet has the hi pass inside and i m considering it as an amp for the 5as.
The internal crossovers are designed with the expectation of a high-passed spectrum, but you are feeding them the full spectrum. So they won't sound right.
Perhaps you can borrow some electronics that will allow you to install the highpass filters and plug in the subs so you can get an idea of the basic sound.
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Also, I'd pull the sub out of the system totally for right now. Get the correct Vandersteen crossover. Does your integrated have a pre out/in? If so, you can use it. Otherwise you cant as the poster above said. I've heard the Vandersteen speakers with very expensive subs from many of the big name companies and I've never heard one that I personally feel mated properly with the speakers. They lost the coherency, point source sound that I love about them. I have spoken to many of you on the boards about this also and I know many agree. Richard has done a great job at mating his subs with his speakers. They aren't that expensive and are outstanding.
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Love the Atlas monoblocks with my 5A Carbons
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168056)
Very nice looking rig with the Atlas monos and Vandy's. Have you tried any other amps with the Vandersteen 5A Carbons?
thanks!
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Those Atlas amps are a best buy in audio IMHO. Love their gear. YEs, they sound amazing with any Vandersteen. For the 7's the Vandy amps are by far my favorite. Just love them with those speakers, but until he comes out with a less expensive amp (if he ever does), then there are a lot of amps that can sound great with them.
To poster above, have you installed the proper cross overs with your system to run the 5's correctly?
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been gone awhile....listening to music I guess....
I had 5a for many happy years, ran them with everything from a 40 WPC MC240 , Mac MC202, ARC D130 and finally an Ayre VX-R
how much amp really depends on how loud you listen, to what and in what space..no one size fits all answer. I did borrow a REF75 se to run my 7’s while upgrading the Ayre to Twenty....it was not enough grunt to provide....headroom ease and grace....I am sure a REF150 would have...but my room is smaller and I am not much of a rocker....
I have heard the 5a sing with Quicksiler, NAIM, Aesthetix, ARC, Mac and Ayre amps and very recently with Rogue and VTL. 7 vas 5 is not subtle at all. you need to listen for a few hours then switch...the distortion of cabinet resonance and cones not behaving pistonic will floor ya...
I have the M7 amps on order, they are in breakin at the factory.....they are selling well, dealers cant get demo amps even if they want them....at some point they will which is good. CT I can assure you the less expensive amp is coming....and it will be appropriately powered..there is a handclap in a song RV uses to test....cruising along at 6 watts before the clap...and kaboom....most amps clip....but the amp is coming...
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I can’t wait for that to happen. And some fortunate person will be able to buy my Ayre AX-5/20 with the internal crossover built-in. It’s sounds incredible
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Also keep in mind, there is a bigger difference between one one and 10 W then there is between 100 W and 300 W. Remember to double the sound you have to go 10 times the amount of watts if I recall correctly. I’m sure aTomic or someone else can correct me if I’m wrong
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I have to concur with the Devialet (D200) recommendation for a very cost effective with great sound quality set up on my 5As. I had a SimAudio P7/W7 setup and went to the D200 integrated along with using its internal electronic crossover and experienced nothing but positive results. Different horses for different courses and budgets and all that noted.
Kenreau
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Update. I heard the system 9 at Audio Connection. Richard has been taking it around some of the dealers to show off. I know it wasn't warmed up properly, but it still sounded so darn good. I got a call from Johnny at AC last night telling me the system just POPPED. Said he couldn't believe how it just opened up and was the best sounding system he's ever heard.
I know the new amp will be the same thing. Richard has used the 30k amps or higher as a bench mark and made his sound better. I trust what I just posted even though I have yet to hear it. I know what's gone into this amp and am figuring out a way to afford it as it's a redo of my system. I'll need short speaker cable runs (selling off my cables), need a pre amp now (have to sell the integrated with the cross over already built directly into it, lol) but I know it's going to be worth doing this. That said, you can run his speakers off of any decent amp and get better sound than running many more expensive speakers off a great and expensive amp.
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For the limit Lamm ML2.2
charles
If you really tried this combination and the Lamm's can drive the 5a's, I will be thrilled. Just bought a pair of 5a's in mint condition. I have the Lamm ML2 monoblocks, which I absolutely love, but everyone has been telling me that you need 125-200wpc to fully drive the 5a's.