AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Planar Circle => Topic started by: SteveFord on 8 Mar 2019, 11:03 pm
-
I've been thinking a little bit which is always a bad thing.
I'm about to finish up some motorcycle projects (too many bikes, not enough money) and then turn my attention to stereo stuff.
After a brief stint with 20.7s the 3.7s sound too thin if that makes any sense.
The 20.7s are too large for my living room.
Who here is running 3.7s with dual subs?
I'm thinking two passive SVS cylinderical subs with Dayton plate amps with adjustments o'plenty.
-
Steve,
I use two Rythmik subs with my 1.7s. I highly recommend using two subs. Much better than one. :D
-
3 or 4 subs are better yet to confront in-room peaks and dips. If using two make sure they are in opposite ends of the room.
-
I've been running a pair of Power Sound Audio (Tom Vodhanel's company...one of the guys who founded SVS) sealed 1500 subs with the 3.6s for a few years. I agree that two are better than one.
-
One of my intended upgrades. I have a friend who bought a pair of Vandersteen 2WQ's, I think they are, to use with his Magnepan IIIa's and that is rather impressive. It just works. They have a rather unusual line level crossover configuration that seems to be a questionable choice but I can't argue with how it sounds. They unify just beautifully with his 3 series.
-
3 or 4 subs are better yet to confront in-room peaks and dips. If using two make sure they are in opposite ends of the room.
Can I ask a litte bit about this? I'd like to add a small second sub to my system, but it's not possible for me to place on the other side of the room. Will it cause more problems than it's worth, if I add a second one but it's in close proximity to the first?
-
What is 'the other side of the room'? Front to Back or Side to Side?
Thanks
-
Will it cause more problems than it's worth, if I add a second one but it's in close proximity to the first?
Yes, IIUC. Two subs that are close interfere with one another. Unless you stack them, in which case they couple together acoustically and play louder.
The choices seem to be: get more subs to so as to go louder then stack them. Get more subs to get smoother then place them in different locations around the room, or get a lot more subs and do both.
The Audio Kinesis Swarm's website can probably explain it better.
-
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191871)
Here's what I'm thinking, either in the corners behind the speakers or flanking them on the outside.
The way the room is set up I'm thinking the big water heater type subs would work best and I'll go with passive so I'll have some flexibility with the amp(s).
-
Hi Steve,
I’ve been running big tubes with my Maggies like you and have been for the last two years. I got decent bass for certain genres of music but needed to take my system to the next level of enjoyment and pretty much just needed more bass for classic rock which I listen to about a third of the time. I’ve taken excerpts below from something I posted on another audio form a while back.
I'm running a pair of F15HP Rythmik sealed subs with my MG3.7i's. Prior to the Rythmik's, I enjoyed a single REL Stadium III for 17 years mated with various Maggie's. According to Rythmik, 30% of all their sales are to Magnepan owners.
Moving into a larger listening room (21'x25') I felt that I needed another Stadium or needed to find a replacement. After months of trying to find a second Stadium, I considering an open baffle approach or sealed boxes, I went with the ladder. I contemplated the time and effort to construct and finish the open baffles as well as investment cost. My wood working skills are fairly adequate but what scared me was the finishing process. MDF trust me, is a challenge to get it to look right especially in a nice listening room. I consider Captain Nemo's kits but those would still need finishing.
I think what actually got me to try the finished Rythmik product was when talking to GR Research about their OB baffle product, I mentioned that I has a REL Stadium. GR made the comment to possibly keep it and run it in conjunction with the open baffles. This is something I definitely did not want to consider. I could not imagine having dual OB subs in my listening along with the REL. Just to put things in perspective, I have Rythmik's sitting behind my 3.7's just to have them out of sight. Not that they are bad looking, in fact the finished products has exceptional build quality in my opinion but let's face it, I don't believe any of us would want to look at a sub if we didn't have to.
Owning Magnepan's for better the a dozen or so years, I've always enjoyed what they brought to the party. Great soundstage, strong imaging, and spooky transparency. The one area they always lacked was a nice lower mid-base and bottom end. I've considered a pair of DWMs, tried the linage set-up, tried various speaker cables, different amps and even thought about a pair of 20.7's. I can honestly say that the Rythmik's have been the perfect complement to my MG 3.7i's.
I've found that these subs take about 150 hours to settle in. I'm not saying that don't sound decent right out of the box but they do change until they get so called broken-in. To give you an example on what I'm talking about is there are numerous tiny adjustment clicks similar to the REL for each settings and adjustments on the plate amp. Initially I had the dampening setting between "low" and "mid" for the first month or so but ended up using the "high" setting once the subs were run in. All the setting on the plate amp can be rather daunting and confusing. I will say the living with the REL for over a decade helped me understand all the settings. Once you get a full understanding on what all these controls and setting can do, it can be rather fun in getting things dialed in properly. I haven't even started playing around with the parametric EQ yet and have this process turned off.
Anyone contemplating on to go with twelves or fifteens, if your room can handle the larger boxes, go with the fifteens, they are not much more expensive. You also get a more powerful amp plate. You can always turn down the amp volume. In my room I have the gain at roughly 2'clock or at 65% output. Just my two cents here but I know the paper GR Research cone is only available in 12 inches. From where I have my subs crossed over, the paper cone would never have made a difference. I think for those mating them with a smaller two-way stand mounted speaker, the paper cone driver would make sense.
I listen primarily to jazz and classic rock. Since getting the Rythmik's it's hard to imagine how much low end energy I've been missing all these years. Even in a smaller listening room with my REL Stadium, I never got the low end impact I'm currently enjoying. Maggie's in my opinion played classic rock decently as you were able to play them loud and with music that did not rely on deep bass to sound good. Stuff like Pink Floyd, Supertramp, The Cars, and Coldplay, were not artist you played to impress your friends. They sounded good but not something my Magnepan's did well at. I can confidently say that this is not the case with the right sub. Regarding jazz recordings, the deep notes present on Ray Brown, Art Pepper, Sammy Nestico and the likes are just incredible. Those low notes were always there and discernable but the Maggie's could not reproduce those bass notes as intended by these artist in my opinion.
If you haven't decided on a sub yet, I hope my feedback will help you in your decision. Time for me to get back to listen and finding my next DAC.
Hoshi
-
Attended the Maggie 30.7 showing in MA last night and according to Wendell dipole subs are the best match with Maggie's.
I have posted my thoughts on the 30.7 over on the asylum.
-
Servo OB subs are even better than regular OB subs.
-
I use a couple of older REL R218s with my 3.7i.
They are fast and I find work really good with the maggies.
-
I've been running a pair of Power Sound Audio (Tom Vodhanel's company...one of the guys who founded SVS) sealed 1500 subs with the 3.6s for a few years. I agree that two are better than one.
Are they pretty musical and fast? I have been eyeballing his subs for awhile now.
-
I've been in the game a long time. Trust me, for planars and OB speakers, this is what you want:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/05/02/75/050275f123f85fa7b6b515303c5d628e.jpg)
-
I've been in the game a long time. Trust me, for planars and OB speakers, this is what you want:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/05/02/75/050275f123f85fa7b6b515303c5d628e.jpg)
I don't know what that is.
-
That's a servo controlled OB Subwoofer that GR Research here on AC makes/sells. IME, it's really important for the wave pattern of the sub to match the wave pattern of the main speaker. For an OB speaker, you really need OB bass. That way your main speakers are creating a figure 8 radiation pattern and your subs are too.
If you go with a boxed sub, then you have a mismatch. Your main speakers are radiating a figure 8 because they are OB, but the box sub radiates sound like a pulsing sphere. And you'll have a lot more difficulty getting them to integrate than you would with a quality OB sub.
-
Are they pretty musical and fast? I have been eyeballing his subs for awhile now.
Sorry, just now saw this. IMO, they blend quite well once you find the right settings. I know it drives Tom nuts because in the earlier days of SVS it used to be a known criticism that his subs weren't good for music...but to my ears, they sound very nice with my Maggies. And as you likely already know, blending subwoofers in with Maggies is not an easy task. I have his sealed versions, though, and IMO sealed subs tend to play nicer with Maggies. Depending on room size, I also have an RSL Speedwoofer 10, which won Audioholics product of the year a while back. It's very clean and also blends quite well with the Maggies. Much less expensive, as well.
-
The open baffle subs are terrific if you have the room but if you don't then the REL sub is another viable choice. I first heard a REL Gibraltar G2 in 2013 and it was paired with Maggie 3.7's, the integration was flawless and I wanted one ever since. The G2 has been discontinued and it took me 6 years to find one but it is just as excellent as I remember. The remote control makes it easy to integrate, my Salk speakers go down to 34 Hz so I have the crossover set between 27 - 30 Hz depending on the recording, the crossover and volume is adjustable in 1 dB increments as shown on the display below the cone. And the bass goes real low, -6 dB at 18 Hz. The G2's 450 watt amp has a fast rise time of 4 milliseconds so it can easily keep up with the Seas drivers and RAAL tweeters. Very highly recommended.
The big brother REL Gibraltar G1 subs are almost always available used, two of them would be killer. The G1 has a 600 watt class AB amp and goes even lower than the G2.
Here is my G2, it is a powerful, nimble beast
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194355)
Carbon fiber woofer
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194356)
-
The Absolute Sound 2019 Editors’ Choice Awards: Subwoofers - REL subs have multiple listings including the Gibraltar G1 MkII
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/2019-editors-choice-awards-subwoofers/?mc_cid=89aeb2460a&mc_eid=617444c021 (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/2019-editors-choice-awards-subwoofers/?mc_cid=89aeb2460a&mc_eid=617444c021)
I have never seen a G1 MkII show up used, a new pair would cost $11,000.
How big is your room? A single used G1 for $2,250 my be all you need. You may think that is expensive until you hear one. Actually the Gibraltar subs are never heard, your speakers sound as if they effortlessly play lower. Gibraltar subs are different, they are not a traditional subwoofer, they are technically a sub-bass system designed to augment the performance of a full range speaker in order to provide linear response to 15Hz (G1).
-
Really nice carbon 10 inch woofer on those REL subs. Reminds me of the current Totem 8 inch Kin subwoofer.
I used a dual 7 inch sub with my 1.6's, but that's a world away from the 3.7's.
-
It’s been a while since I’ve posted here, but I have had some experience with subs and Maggie’s.
I have a biamped pair of 3.6’s with a ModWright KWA150SE powering the mids and highs and a pair of Bryston 7B SST’s for the lows. I used a pair of subs, a Velodyne DD15 and a DD12 as a slave sub, for about 10 years. Then my DD15 buzzed and off it went. It was strange, as I wasn’t playing anything at the time. What a blessing that was, as it allowed me to purchase my REL subs.
I bought one REL S/5 SHO sub about a month ago. I put it one corner of my room and use the high level input cable connected to a Bryston amp. Adjustment was fairly easy, but it took some time. Bass is seamless, accurate and extends. As I told my dealer, it’s as if I had full range Maggie’s. One was quite enough IMO. However, I just added a second S/5 about a week ago. It’s located in the opposite corner of the room and about ten feet away from the right 3.6. It’s connected using REL’s Longbow Bluetooth transmitter which is absolutely incredible and easy to set up. OMG is all I need to say. My HT has never sounded this good with such impact. I’ll add the DD 12 back into the system as a dedicated center channel sub for my tricenter setup using a pair of MG 10’s and a CC3. I have 1.6’s as my surrounds, and the REL’s complement them as well.
I’ve wanted a REL for a while, and I’m glad I took the plunge. Please read the reviews on the S/5. Buy any REL from a dealer and take advantage of their 60-day trial. Trust me, they won’t be going anywhere.
-
FWIW, my vote goes to OB/Dipole subs to mate with Magggies for best music integration.
I have tried various box subs over the years (dual Martin Logan Servo Descent I's, M&K's, Rels, Magellan/TBI transmission line subs, etc.), but they never blended seamlessly for me so they were either repurposed for HT, returned, sold or turned into dust collectors. They would always show themselves when you try different volume combinations or content selections. What setting/configuration would blend well in one scenario would not in another. The TBI's were nice at low volumes, but would not keep up with the Maggies when you turn up the volume. Port chuffing became the wart at increased volumes and they all gave localization queues which drew attention to themselves. I understand that TBI has made mods since to address the port chuffing, but haven't tried their newer models.
If you want something to blend well with OB/Dipoles, I assume you have to extend similar design characteristics throughout the frequency range, else the relative levels will not match as SPL changes. It is also beneficial to match line sources with line sources and point sources with point sources for similar reasons based on SPL reduction over distance.
I have been playing with 2 - 12" GR Research Dipole Servo subs both with the Rythmik Servo Amp (hardware low pass dipole roll off shelf and servo) and an ICEPower ASP1000 amp (software low pass dipole roll off shelf with no servo). Both have given the best integration to date with my Magnepan 20.1's. I am using a Marchand XM44 XO to cross them over with symmetric 40Hz/48dB slopes. I am getting relatively flat in-room seamless responses down to 13 Hz. After testing these in different OB cabinets and getting the results I have, I have placed another driver on order to make the double into a triple and will possibly add another triple (for stereo) when time and budget permits.
They seem to track with volume changes as well as content changes and do not provide localizations in my venue like the other box subs that I have tried. They have added tangible bass at low volume levels which is something I have never been able to do with Maggies without cranking the volume. In short, I am very happy with their integration (best I have heard) to date and don't feel I will be turning them off because of content specific or SPL level miss-matches for music.
FWIW, I am currently running the 2 drivers in a triple 1.5" thick (sides, center, shelves) MDF H-Frame cabinet that weighs a ton and has no flex. All joints have dados.
-
UPDATE to my previous post:
Got the 3rd driver last week to fill out the triple H-Frame. Good stuff.
(https://i.imgur.com/iMmSNnz.jpg)
Here is an in-room response plot. Usable sub-bass down to 13Hz.
(https://i.imgur.com/feAxja4.jpg)
-
UPDATE to my previous post:
Here is an in-room response plot. Usable sub-bass down to 13Hz.
(https://i.imgur.com/feAxja4.jpg)
That looks great! My 3.6Rs are flat to 30hz in my room. I'm thinking about adding two pairs of 12" GR OB subs. Do you think I'll experience a huge upgrade in overall sound quality if it makes my system flat to ~13hz? I'm not exactly sure what information is down there and wondering if the expense ($2,500) is really worth it.
-
That looks great! My 3.6Rs are flat to 30hz in my room. I'm thinking about adding two pairs of 12" GR OB subs. Do you think I'll experience a huge upgrade in overall sound quality if it makes my system flat to ~13hz? I'm not exactly sure what information is down there and wondering if the expense ($2,500) is really worth it.
Ketchup,
The 20.1's go down to 25Hz, but I do not run them that low. You should be able to run the OB/Dipole subs higher than 40Hz (e.g. 80, 120 or higher if you get a plate amp with LFE options). This will take the bass load off of your 3.6 amp if you are using an external XO to manage the integration. It also will start giving you more dynamic range in the low end. These subs can blend very well with Maggies and can take over some of the bass load. Think of them as DWM's on steroids (go much lower than DWM's).
I am using REW and RePhase for integration along with an active XO. Here is where the integration is currently at.
(https://i.imgur.com/KCwankp.jpg)
Here is a very helpful frequency chart which will give you an idea of what is in the lower registers. As you run the subs higher, you start picking up more of the percussion section but you have to use DSP to get the waterfall above.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/4a/6f/8b4a6fd7b8d65711eed41850a194284e.jpg)
-
Thanks. I understand what instruments extend down into the lower registers. What I meant was, what does adding 13-30hz do for the listening experience? I won't be using DSP because I also have analog sources.
-
Thanks. I understand what instruments extend down into the lower registers. What I meant was, what does adding 13-30hz do for the listening experience? I won't be using DSP because I also have analog sources.
It gives you a fuller sound by extending the frequency range as well adding felt sub bass, but additional improvements can be gained by running them to a higher frequency and offloading those bass frequencies from the Maggie bass panels. I wouldn't rule out the option to cross over the Sub/Maggies at 80Hz or 120Hz to get more dynamic range out of your system.
Here is Flim and the BB's Tricycle dynamic range with OB/Dipole subs set flat to the mains, running higher in frequency. Maggies can't do that by themselves.
(https://i.imgur.com/CBJS8Td.jpg)
-
Holy cow Tim, we have a lot more in common than I thought! I own almost all of Flim and the BBs recordings. They have excellent DR. Anyway, thanks to Tim's guidance, and after extensive research, I am also augmenting my 3.6Rs with dual triple GRs Hframe OB/dipole subs using a XO bypassing magnepan external crossover. I have ordered all parts. I expect to be running in a month or so as my 3.6Rs are also being refurbished.
-
As a few have already suggested, I agree with using Rythmik subs. Make sure you use one of their servo subs to keep up with the Maggies. I use a pair of Rythmik F12G (GR research drivers) servo subs with my ESL speakers. The Rythmik subs have all the needed controls to really dial them in. Their support was helpful with all the setup questions I had.
-
I've only been thinking about this since 2019 when this thread first started but I finally did it.
Remember that Crown amplifier that was out on tour here many years ago?
If so, that particular amplifier is now powering a set of SVS cylindrical subs with a Rolls dual subwoofer filter.
https://rolls.com/product/SX95
You can get one of those on Amazon for around $100.
Set up was really easy - position the subs where you want them, put the crossover around 40 hZ, turn the volume up on the Crown all the way and blend in the volume with the Rolls, leave it in stereo and off you go.
Should I have done this a long time ago?
Yes.
-
One final note on that Rolls unit: it MUST be kept on while the amp driving the subs is turned on.
If not, once every 15 seconds you'll get a THUMP! into the subs.
Keep the Rolls and the Crown on at the same time and dead silent.
I think I'm finally out of Class D Purgatory (for a little while, at least).
-
I use a pair of these with my full dipole ESL's. I'm thinking they would work well with Maggies too.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234626)
-
I'm sure they would.
Beautiful work, too.
-
I use a pair of these with my full dipole ESL's. I'm thinking they would work well with Maggies too.
Forgot to add:
You can't buy Ripole subs anywhere that I know of, but I will provide my drawings and a parts list to anyone who wants them (free of charge).
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234626)
-
I run these - SVS PC 4000 x2 (in stereo mode,) for my front subwoofers. I run an Earthquake MKV15 for the rear.
The Earthquake hits hard but the sound is a bit slower than the PC 4000s.
Very tight, articulate, subtle yet explosive bottom-end.
I have it set up in 'extended' mode (1 port blocked,) as this seems to be 'faster' than in standard mode (no ports blocked.)
With SVS, you can use an app to fine-tune your woofer from your favorite seat.
Alas - they used to be $1800/each, but now I think they are $2300/each.
So for about $5,000 you end up with a fantastic subwoofer setup that (IMHO) mates well with Maggies.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=235548)
-
I don't have maggies but I do have OB planar magnetic speakers and I'd recommend open baffle subs:
https://gr-research.com/product/sub-series-double-trouble-with-flatpacks-copy/
-
My brother has a pair of REL G1 MkII subs with his 20.7s, and I have to say the whole thing sounds amazing.
-
Is your brother looking to adopt in the near future?
I don't eat much but do smoke a lot.
-
I run SVS cylinder subwoofers.
2 PC 4000s.
They are fast enough, and they offer almost bottomless first couple of octaves.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236171)
-
I run SVS cylinder subwoofers.
2 PC 4000s.
They are fast enough, and they offer almost bottomless first couple of octaves.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236171)
Nice room and lighting!