AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Enclosures => Topic started by: stvnharr on 12 May 2019, 11:54 pm
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If you are now reading this Post #1 in this thread, you have likely found this from a Google search on the Master Set speaker placement.
I will list below some helpful links and information. You can then proceed to Pg.4 and Post #75 which has proper information on doing Master Set.
You may find it informative to read Post #2 in this thread as I wrote a bit of background information on Master Set.
The intervening posting may or may not be of interest to readers if you wish to know about Master Set speaker placement.
Links:
1. AA: https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?p=979168
See Post #2 in this thread. This is pretty much the official Sumiko procedure. It's just 4 steps and describes the audio cues to listen for.
This link is now behind a paywall. Subscription is $25/year.
2. Co Guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjYTGV0LMcs
This longish YT video is really good for how it is when you try to do the Master Set procedure. The audio cues are well described and should be quite helpful and hopefully lead to a good result.
3. Bob Robbins: The other video is Bob Robbins 2014 RMAF talk on his version of Master Set. The video is a little long, at just over one hour, but he does describe the Master Set steps well. Here is Bob Robbins talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Pf0ycbyBM. This is complete and with the wife in the kitchen.
3. Dave Wilson: Dave Wilson’s 2016 video on the Wilson Audio setup procedure, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOI8py0DAC8
The most important point to me is the Zone of Neutrality. The prescribed method actually works quite well for getting the minimum distance out from the wall behind the speaker for initial setup. I was actually quite surprised that I heard the voice change so easily when I tried this myself. Also he describes the importance of audio cues in setting speakers.
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Thank you, now I think I understand what the Master Set procedure is getting at. I tried before and couldn't make sense of it, much appreciated.
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To simplify even more............
One speaker is set as a Reference, in the Zone of Neutrality.
The second speaker is positioned so that it is in perfect phase with the reference speaker.
That is the gist of the whole thing.
Perfect phase sound is what you get with just one speaker playing. You can get the same perfect sound with both speakers playing, but it's tricky. That is what the simplified second step is all about.
Perfect sound is clean, clear and unmistakable.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194495)
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Is your post something that you do?
It has nothing to do with what I posted and do.
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Is your post something that you do?
It has nothing to do with what I posted and do.
It's the dealer worksheet for the Wilson Audio setup procedure - WASP, that you talked about in your post.
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I have watched the linked Dave Wilson video and read a couple of Wilson Manuals and didn't see anything like your drawing. The drawing looks like some kind of toe-in measure. From the video and manual it seemed to me that Wilson mostly does set up by ear and subjective sound. The manuals I read both state that Wilson speakers are designed to have perfect phase when toed right at the listener. So it must be. I'm not aware of any other manufacturer who states any such thing.
Perfect phase is what you are after in speaker positioning. Master Set in one way to get there.
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I have watched the linked Dave Wilson video and read a couple of Wilson Manuals and didn't see anything like your drawing. The drawing looks like some kind of toe-in measure. From the video and manual it seemed to me that Wilson mostly does set up by ear and subjective sound. The manuals I read both state that Wilson speakers are designed to have perfect phase when toed right at the listener. So it must be. I'm not aware of any other manufacturer who states any such thing.
Perfect phase is what you are after in speaker positioning. Master Set in one way to get there.
As I posted, it's a dealer worksheet for the Wilson Audio setup procedure, so you're not going to see it unless you're a dealer or a Wilson owner.
I've watch a top Wilson dealer do the WASP two times. Wilson trains their dealers to perform this procedure.
FYI, when you buy Wilson speakers you don't get the extended warranty until a trained* Wilson dealer does the WASP and submits the worksheet.
BTW, how do you know Master Set gets you to "Perfect phase," have you taken measurements?
*Wilson Way Session 14 Dealer Training:
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/l/t1.0-9/55609021_10158131731787656_4063602974042095616_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=a7494076c326f979a044e8fff976ce60&oe=5D5A0475)
• Mike Rose of Excel Audio
• Ray Benza of Entertainment Technologies
• Adam Golden of Crescendo Fine Audio
• Michael Klein of Audio Concepts
• Scott Ross of Atlanta Home Theater
• Ron Czarnik of Paragon Sight & Sound
• Huy Le of iconic.systems
• Chris Romine of Audio Advisors
• Paul Sandquist of Sound Xperience
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Perfect phase with both speakers..............
Listening is everything.
Or as Dave Wilson mentioned in his video about where did the other clarinet come from if there is only one clarinet playing.
Perfect phase is easy to hear as it is totally natural sound.
Perfect phase is listening to one speaker, as all the drivers are designed to be in perfect, or as near as possible, phase. It's harder to get when you put the second speaker in the room, but it can be done.
You mentioned measurements. Well, what measurements? What would you measure?
Furthermore, W.A.S.P. is great. Wilson speakers are great. And if you can afford Wilson speakers, the dealer comes with the trained set up guys and it gets all done for you. There is some useful information in the procedure for people setting up their own speakers.
This thread is not about W.A.S.P.
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"This thread is not about W.A.S.P."
It is now. ;-)
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Well, I had hopes of staying on topic, but if you wish to post about or discuss WASP, go for it in a positive manner.
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Sorry Sir, but no it is not!
Without the addition of the WASP, your Master Set, just like it was ten years ago, is worthless.
Have a nice day.
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Point No. 3 of Initial Starts incorporates the first point of the WASP procedure, as I think it pretty worthwhile.
Okay, fair enough.
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All members will refrain from dictating where and what another member will post unless they are quoting from the guidelines. stvnharr has edited his post above to comply, we hope this doesn't occur again.
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Perhaps some further background information could be helpful here.
In the 1990’s Sumiko Importers of Berkeley started a training program for their dealers called M.A.S.T.E.R.S., which is an acronym for Modal All Simplified Training Electronic Retail Salespeople. It was never for public consumption and graduates were sworn to keep it a secret. And that has pretty much happened as Google searches still give no hits for the term.
The term Master Set was coined by Rod Tomson of Soundings HiFi in Denver Colorado. I have no idea how closely this follows the actual MASTERS training. However an insight to the actual MASTERS methods can be found in a post on diyaudio: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/the-lounge/318975-john-curls-blowtorch-preamplifier-iii-1665.htm, go to post #16648.
Stirling Trayle is the former owner of Sumiko and started the MASTERS program along with John Hunter. He now sets up speakers and audio systems as a business. He gave a talk at the San Francisco Audio Society the past March 2019, which is where the notes originated.
Rod T. started Master Set and has incorporated that into his audio business. I first heard speakers set up in this manner in 2007 at RMAF. Over time I learned the basics of the methodology and eventually have been able to get the desired results.
What I do bears some resemblance to Rod’s Master Set, but I simplify things a whole lot and like to include the Zone of Neutrality idea, as it’s pretty helpful. I just wanted to share my experiences with that. It shouldn’t really be called Master Set Revisited, but it is nonetheless.
What I do is completely DIY, doesn’t cost anything other than procurement of the set up song. It is easy to do but hard to get perfect. It’s no better than any other methodology that gets the same results, sound from two speakers as a single sound source. An added benefit is that the sound thus obtained does not restrict the listener to one single listening spot. What I do can be done with any box speaker in any room.
I would suggest that if anyone has questions about M.A.S.T.E.R.S. they contact Stirling Trayle thru his website.
If there are questions about actual Master Set, then Bob Robbins, the 2014 RMAF video guy would be the best contact, again thru his website.
There is no reason for any of this to be contentious at all.
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I thought it might be good to do a short comparison of how I have set my speakers and the W.A.S.P. set up procedure, as I understand it. The two procedures are actually quite similar in some respects, which is why I included a bit of it in my write up.
Both procedures set the speakers in the area of least interaction with the room boundaries, which Wilson calls the Zone of Neutrality. Both procedures set the speakers by ear with a specified reference recording and using specific audio cues from the recording to set the speakers in place. Both procedures do not require a perfect room, but are adaptable to the actual room dimensions and conditions. The end results should be similar, though there are some differences.
The different end result is that with the way I do it, the speakers are set in perfect phase with each other, with the set up of the second speaker in the spot of perfect phase to the first speaker. This allows the listener a choice of listening position as the sound is perfect in more than just one spot. This is what drew me to the Master Set method when I first heard it in 2007.
According to the Wilson speaker manual, the one I read was for the Sasha, Wilson crossovers are designed so that when the speaker is faced toward the listener, the sound will be in perfect phase. To me this makes the procedure pretty much exclusive only to Wilson speakers as only Wilson speakers will have Wilson designed crossovers. This also gives the listener only one place for preferred listening, which I find to be quite limiting.
The way I set speakers works easiest if the speakers are set along the long wall of the room. Short wall placement leads to sidewall issues that would have to be addressed. The Wilson procedure seems to be designed for short wall placement, and the speaker manual addresses the sidewall issues.
The way I set speakers is completely DIY, can be done by one person, and is fairly simple in procedure though it does require much attention and focus to get the desired result.
The Wilson procedure is not really DIY friendly unless one is trained by Wilson in the procedure and knows the specific audio cues used to set the speakers in the desired position.
The procedure I use can be done for any box speaker and in any room. The Wilson procedure is for purchasers of Wilson speakers.
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Very interesting. I think I understand the process you're using which sounds like the main thing is getting a strong/proper center image.
Couple questions:
1. Which version of Ballad Of a Runaway Horse do you use?
2. Any recommendations for speakers set up in a diagonal configuration?
Here's an experience I had a few years ago. I thought my system was sounding very good with all of the audiophile superlatives except one. With certain female vocals it would sound raspy, not smooth, like I'm sure it was recorded. I found changing toe-in could help, but after reading your method, I think I should've gone with more adjustment.
BTW, I can't imagine why using the Wilson method would only work with Wilson speakers. I think any well designed speaker will give correct phase at the correct distance. Hard to imagine getting decent imaging without it.
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BTW, I can't imagine why using the Wilson method would only work with Wilson speakers. I think any well designed speaker will give correct phase at the correct distance. Hard to imagine getting decent imaging without it.
+1
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Very interesting. I think I understand the process you're using which sounds like the main thing is getting a strong/proper center image.
Couple questions:
1. Which version of Ballad Of a Runaway Horse do you use?
2. Any recommendations for speakers set up in a diagonal configuration?
BTW, I can't imagine why using the Wilson method would only work with Wilson speakers. I think any well designed speaker will give correct phase at the correct distance. Hard to imagine getting decent imaging without it.
The version of Ballad of a Runaway Horse that is used is the one on the Rob Wasserman Duo album. I think it is also available in a file version. There is just the singer and the bass player, though towards the end there are some background singers singing some notes. The Duo version works so well because it is so simple. The voice is perfectly centered and easily heard. The bass player is plainly heard as well.
Your second question is interesting as I have no idea. I suppose you could try and see what happens. It's just that you have to have the speakers in the Zone of Neutrality, or decoupled zone out from the wall behind.
As to the Wilson method working with other speakers, I don't know. Wilson promotes their method as part of the sales package and not some consultancy service or for DIY purposes.
But you could certainly try it if you think you know how to do it. You would have to be able to do everything exactly as they do. You would have to determine the limits of the Zone of Neutrality. You would also have to be able to hear and know all the audio cues they use on that Flim & The BB's cd. And then you would have to be able to find those same cues with your speaker(s) when you move them around trying to find the cues. It's likely a lot harder than it looks.
Remember that Master Set and Bob Robbins promote what they do as good for any speaker in any room. And my simplified procedure is good for any box speaker, as that is all I have experience with, in any room.
Good imaging can be achieved by just sitting in the center between the speakers. Perfect imaging requires perfect phase and close is not the same.
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This sounds great. I recall being at RMAF years ago and hearing the demonstration you mentioned. I was amazed at how good things sounded and that enjoyable imaging didn't require me to be in only one seat in the room.
However, something that I've always wondered about when it comes to this method, is whether the position of the speakers in the room is more dependent on the room or the actual speaker itself. So, if I have someone experienced in this method set up my speakers using this technique, but then purchase new speakers, will the new speakers work well in the old locations? Or am I going to need to restart the process over again from scratch? I'll make a couple of assumptions here for my question. The listening seat would not be moved and the type of speaker would at least be similar. In other words, both direct radiating, rather than mixing in a dipole and direct radiator.
Thanks.
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As a follow-up question, what about other changes to a system? Will replacing a solid state amp with a tube amp, or upgrading a cartridge on a TT, change things such that re doing the speaker set up procedure would be required for best performance. I think it's this kind of stuff, where my system never seems completely stabilized, that's prevented me from bringing a local dealer in to perform this setup. It's always seemed like the Master Set should be done when a person is almost completely satisfied with their system and is looking for that "final" touch.
Bob
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The speaker set up is both speaker and room dependent as it is the speaker-room interface. Thus if you change speakers you need to set up the speakers all over again from scratch. Moving a piece of furniture, or some other room change, may or may not affect the sound. The sound will tell you most certainly.
Changes in the audio system do not require a speaker set up change. In fact, since the speakers are set in perfect phase then you are more able to properly evaluate any system changes, such as they might occur.
BTW, I posted my simplified my procedure I posted it here as it is very DIY friendly and anyone should be able to do it with good success. One thing to remember is that if you go the DIY way, be sure to mark the old position of your speakers as a fail safe in case it all doesn't happen quite right for you the first time. And even if you do it and it works perfectly, keep the new marks in place or carefully measure the position of the speakers in case the speakers get moved.
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Thanks for clarifying. I kind of thought that would be the case.
Bob
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Thanks for responding to my questions. As I was typing I had a number 3 question but got called away and forgot the question. I remember so here goes.
You say you know the set up is complete when the image stays in place as you move the listening position. I do have a very strong center image if the singer is centered. A friend who has heard my system a couple times commented just how well Cat Stevens was centered on his first listen. So after reading this thread yesterday, I went and listened closely while moving out of the sweet spot. Of course the vocal doesn't stay centered as I moved outside of the speakers.
My question is how much movement is acceptable before you say more adjustment is needed?
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There should be little to no movement. It does depend a little bit on the room a bit.
FWIW, my speakers are about 7 feet apart, center of speaker cabinet to center of speaker cabinet. I don't sit in the center between the speakers as there is a fireplace right in the center. So I sit off to the right, and I am pretty much in front of the right speaker. I have a perfectly centered stereo image. I have a number of mono jazz discs and a few classical mono discs. The mono discs are perfectly centered too.
BTW, it's not just the centered image that stands out. Each instrumental image also changes and becomes a single sounding instrument that is easily heard as such.
As an experiment, you can do a shortcut procedure perhaps. If you can determine if your speakers are in the Zone of Neutrality. Just do as the guy in the Wilson video did, and determine the minimum distance out from the rear wall. This is usually about 2 feet, but don't assume. If your speakers are out in that zone, then you might be able to just move one of the speakers a small amount and see what happens. Say if you move a little to the right and the voice moves with you, just move the right speaker about 1/4 inch toward the wall and note any difference. If there is less movement, then move the speaker again, though maybe a little less. If there is more movement, then move the right speaker out 1/4 inch from original position and note what happens.
If this shortcut procedure does not get you anywhere, you just have to do things from the start.
BTW, you do not necessarily have to use the Ballad of a Runaway Horse song. But you do have to have a song with a perfectly centered voice. The BRH song just makes things easy as there is nothing conflicting with hearing the voice.
Then as I wrote the above, I remembered you asked about a diagonal set up, so maybe you have that and my shortcut procedure likely would not help you.
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"Vowelling-In" a Loudspeaker:
First of all, you have to realize that the boundaries are the enemy: they reflect sound, and most dynamic speakers are not designed to compensate for these reflected sounds. Of course, by definition, all rooms have boundaries. There are two ways to approach the problem of boundary interaction: one is to alter the boundary itself—make it so absorptive that it has no reflective quality. Or, you could make it so randomly diffusive that it breaks up the comb-filter effect and the standing waves. The approach that I use, however, is based on my observation that most end-users don't want to turn their listening rooms into anechoic chambers or studio environments. They want to incorporate fine audio equipment into their homes so they can enjoy music—it's that simple.
If you can't alter the boundary, you have to alter the speaker's relationship to that boundary. Now you don't really have any latitude in changing the speaker's relationship to the floor; that's essentially designed into the architecture of the speaker—the same is true of its relationship to the ceiling, obviously. The boundary behind the listener—the far wall—is so far away from the speaker that it doesn't have a primary influence on the response of the speaker. So we concentrate on the speaker's position relative to the walls behind it and to its sides.
You have to deal with those boundaries separately because they interact with the speaker in different ways. First we get a general reading of the room with voice. We find a "zone of neutrality" by speaking while we walk into the room, starting at the wall behind us. We know that a boundary will interact with a sound-source in predictable ways, so if you stand near a boundary and speak, you can hear it interact with your voice. As you slowly move away from that boundary, still speaking, you can hear that interaction change. Finally, you reach a point—somewhere out into the room—where there is very little perceived interaction. We mark that point with tape.
Walking farther into the room, you find that for a distance of a few feet, there is little change in the voice. Eventually, you get far enough away from the wall behind you—and close enough to the wall in front of you—that your voice takes on an echoey quality. We mark that point with tape as well. Using that marked area as a reference, we go through the same procedure from the side wall, again marking where the interactions change—we call the area bounded by our tape markings the "zone of neutrality," and the rest of the process consists of determining exactly where within it the speakers should be placed.
First, we adjust for the wall behind the speaker. Differences here of as little as an inch make a great impact on the bass-response of the system and the soundstaging. As the speakers are moved closer to that rear wall, they get more low-frequency reinforcement—sometimes actually becoming boomy in the upper bass—and the soundstage narrows. Pull the speakers toward the listener, and the soundstage gets wider while the deep bass loses reinforcement. You have to use your judgment, but as you become accustomed to this procedure, incremental changes produce predictable and recognizable changes in the sound.
We then adjust the speakers' relationship to the side walls without changing the distance we've established for the rear wall. We do this one speaker at a time, disconnecting the other one—using Ragtime Razzmatazz, a ragtime piano recording I made back in 1980. In establishing the purest harmonic structure, differences of as little as a quarter of an inch affect the purity of the sound. I call this "voweling" because I listen for the tones to change from "aaa" to "eee" or "ooo."
There are many methods of establishing speaker placement. In one approach you use a mirror to look at the speaker's reflection on the wall—which primarily works in the bass. A cable company recommends a method based on ratios, which has a great deal of validity if your room happens to be a rectangle. Even then, it works best in the lowest three octaves. But few setup methods address the midrange harmonic structure the way ours does. I'm not saying that our system's effective with dipoles, because they interact with the room in a different way, but for our speakers, or Thiels, or the other dynamic speakers I've had experience with, this really works well.—David A. Wilson
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Ah, so this is all a quote from the Late David Wilson. Very informative reading.
Dave Wilson is one of the few who really spent a lot of time learning about how to place a speaker in a room, as did the Sumiko guys Stirling Trayle and John Hunter. There does seem to be many similarities in approaches. It would interesting to have someone who went through MASTERS to post here.
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I watched both videos in the OP. Other than the precision and scoring system, the Wilson video seems pretty standard information. The Herb Robbins talk is interesting. I suppose he's purposely vague in the talk as he's selling the specifics of his method on his web site.
After watching the videos I checked my system to see how it sounds and whether or not the center image stays centered which it doesn't. I prefer my speakers with some toe-in, which of course ensures the center vocal will move if the listener moves. Both speakers are producing equal output to get the vocal center, and in a setup with slight toe-in as you move left, you are closer to the left speaker, and further from the right speaker. It's louder from the left which equates to an off center vocal.
I did some toe-in adjustment and got a center vocal to stay centered with extreme toe-in. As I move left, even though I'm closer to the left speaker, the right speaker's output is directed at me while the left is firing away from me = center image stays put. I hope that's not the solution because it looks terrible to me and it sounds terrible as well. I'd prefer a 2-3 foot wide sweet spot where everything is perfect. If I'm listening critically, I am in the chair anyway. If I'm walking around the room, I may be enjoying the music, but not listening critically.
Here's a pic of my setup. Not exactly up to date, but you get the picture.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192467)
I checked stvnharr's gallery and see pics of the Master Set. I understand what you're doing now. As I sit centered, I don't think it's for me. Very educational thread though.
Before our recent move, my system was in a perfectly square room which was very hard to get good sound. I was inspired to try the diagonal configuration for speakers after reading some threads about it. This article on the Decware really talked me into it: http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm (http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm)
With a diagonal setup, other than the ceiling and the floor, room boundaries have very little affect. I have GIK 244s on the ceiling and carpet on floor.
If your room supports it, you really should give it a try. If soundstage and imaging are high audio priorities, especially image depth, you'll love it. 2-3 hours on a rainy weekend is worth it.
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Long time to reply as I have been far away for a spell.
First, my AC gallery page is 10 years old and lots has changed so could use an update one of these days. I used a lot of toe in with the Osborn speakers to get decent sound that I wanted, but toe in is not the best way to adjust sound. Current speaker set with the new speakers has little toe in and proper sound.
Perhaps you would find it worthwhile to email Bob Robbins with regards your diagonal speaker placement. Bob is helpful to diy'ers and quite supportive.
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Take a few minutes and post a current pic. You know the old saying, "a picture is worth a thousand words."
I will contact Robbins. I'll post the results of my query.
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I've been down several of the same roads as you timind with the diagonal set up and the extreme toe in. 45° toe in does spread the sweet spot as you noted, but does wonky things to the soundstage, so I've reserved that placement for home theater in which a wide sweet spot is more important than soundstage or frequency response. The diagonal placement works wonders for soundstaging as first reflection (there is one) is very close and oblique from the speakers reducing high frequency reflections where most of the soundstage queues are. However I found it created a lot of bass issues, I wonder what you've experienced. I'm also wondering what Master Set placement would do for a diagonal arrangement.
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I've been down several of the same roads as you timind with the diagonal set up and the extreme toe in. 45° toe in does spread the sweet spot as you noted, but does wonky things to the soundstage, so I've reserved that placement for home theater in which a wide sweet spot is more important than soundstage or frequency response. The diagonal placement works wonders for soundstaging as first reflection (there is one) is very close and oblique from the speakers reducing high frequency reflections where most of the soundstage queues are. However I found it created a lot of bass issues, I wonder what you've experienced. I'm also wondering what Master Set placement would do for a diagonal arrangement.
I initially used the diagonal set up in the 12x12x8 room to improve soundstage, and only later worked on bass. By the time we moved I had what I thought was exceptional bass in the square room. I had bass trapping in all 4 corners as well as some other bass trapping at wall/floor junctions. The room was dedicated to the system with only 2 chairs so aesthetics were not an issue. I was in that room for 7+ years.
It took me a few months of trials before going to the diagonal set up after moving into this 24x27x8 basement room. At this point, and after a lot of position tweeking, I feel the soundstage is as good as I've ever had. As for the bass, it's still a concern in this room. The bass is clean, but nowhere near as deep as it was in the small room. I'm thinking this is probably just a matter of the larger space not being pressurized as firmly.
Couple more things about the basement. In the basement, I have bass traps in 3 corners instead of 4. I wonder the how effective they are as the corners are quite a distance from the speakers. Also have absorption on the ceiling at first reflection points which I did not have in small room.
I tried the extreme toe in after looking at stvharr's pics. It did help keep the enter image centered, but threw off what I thought was the natural soundstage. Although it was fine with one vocalist and bass, when complex music was playing, it didn't sound right.
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Okay, here is a pic of my new setup. Pic is taken from my listening seat. As you can easily tell, I'm sitting in front of the right speaker. Pity that I don't have a more wide angle view, but I don't. You can also see that I don't have much toe in, certainly nowhere near as much as I originally did with the Osborn speakers, though over time I did take some of the toe in out.
With regards the diagonal setup............here is something you can try.
Recreate the first step in my set up procedure. Move the right speaker over to the wall, right up against it. If your left speaker is decoupled from the wall behind it, then all sound will be heard as from that speaker only. Anything else means the left speaker is still coupled to the wall and would need to be moved out from the wall.
Because I have never done diagonal walls I really don't know how this would work. This is why I suggested contacting Bob Robbins.
Steve
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195491)
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Thanks for the pic. It was helpful for me to understand what you're getting at. Actually though, your speaker positioning isn't much different than mine. The difference is I sit dead center on my speakers. After looking at your pic I went and gave a quick listen to my system with a seat outside the speakers (both sides) as you do. I have to say I was surprised to hear a dead center vocal with the Ballad Of A Runaway Horse track while sitting that far from center. The vocal was centered unless I was positioned pretty much directly in front of one of the speakers.
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The trick is to set the first speaker totally decoupled from the walls. Then you can set the second speaker in a perfect phase position to the first speaker. In that small zone of perfection the image stays very stable.
BTW, you can only tell just so much from a picture.
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The trick is to set the first speaker totally decoupled from the walls. Then you can set the second speaker in a perfect phase position to the first speaker. In that small zone of perfection the image stays very stable.
BTW, you can only tell just so much from a picture.
What I can tell from your pic is those speakers are probably too close to the back wall to be fully decoupled from it. Maybe it's an optical illusion and they're further than they look, but I don't think so. Anyway, if it sounds good to you, I say enjoy.
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It is an optical illusion. For the record, the speaker baffles are just over 2 feet out from the wall.
It also looks as if I am really close to the speakers, but I am not quite so close.
Decoupling is done by sound only, whether by the first step in the procedure, or by doing like in the Wilson video. The decoupled zone in small rooms is generally about 2 feet out to about 3 feet out from the wall. I have my speakers close to the minimum as the room is so small. I would like to have them maybe a little more out into the room, but that creates other issues and makes it harder to get right. It works and works well where they are at now.
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I've seen a few Master Set rooms and they all seem to have the speakers much closer to the wall than I'm used to. And yes, they are about what you described, front baffle 2-3' out. IME speakers need to be much further out from the front wall, does the "in phase" principal override the need for more space behind the speaker?
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It is an optical illusion. For the record, the speaker baffles are just over 2 feet out from the wall.
No, it's not an optical illusion. I would've estimated about 2 feet from the wall. As Letitroll98 says though, they're closer to the wall than one would expect, especially for speakers as large as those.
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Here is a little tidbit from long ago, right after I first heard Master Set at RMAF2007, and only had minimal information and great desire. I understood that you start with both speakers against the wall. play this Ballad of a Runaway Horse song and then move the left speaker out into the room until all sound comes from that one speaker. I didn't have the song, but I did have a jazz tune that had a one minute double bass introduction which I put on repeat. I moved the left speaker out from the wall and got several inches out before anything changed. Then the bass slowly moved toward the left speaker. Then like real suddenly one move and all sound came from the left speaker with both playing, just like Rod said. I kept moving the left speaker out and about a foot later into the room, the sound quickly centered once again. Thus, when you get the first speaker too far out into the room you go out of the decoupled zone that you need to be in in order to get the speakers set correctly. Just remember those tape marks in the Dave Wilson video for the Zone of Neutrality.
My little above note is why you do not go with what you think "should be", you go with what you hear.
The sound all comes from the speaker baffle. The space behind the speaker box doesn't really matter much, especially with a closed box speaker like I have. With a rear port you would want at least a foot of space behind.
My speakers are not really "That" large. Actual dimensions are 9x13x44 inches. However the speaker part is 9x13x24. The lower 20 inches is a built in stand. These speakers are re-creations of a standmount speaker Rick Craig designed for me in 2003 when I lived in the US. With this re-creation speaker I debated buying new stands or building stands into the box. I chose the later option.
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I will contact Robbins. I'll post the results of my query.
Hi, did you ever contact Bob Robbins, or get a reply if you did?
Just curious.
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I have found some additional information on Sumiko/Master Set that could be helpful to those trying to do the procedure.
https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?p=979168
See Post #2 in this thread. This is pretty much the official Sumiko procedure. It's just 4 steps and describes the audio cues to listen for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjYTGV0LMcs
This longish YT video is really good for how it is when you try to do the Master Set procedure. The audio cues are well described and should be quite helpful and hopefully lead to a good result.
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Hello dear audiophiles
I am new to this Forum and would like to share my experiences with the "Master Set".
First of all I would like to thank STVNHARR for all the effort he has taken to make this method known to everyone. Also Bob Robbins and Guy Stuff with their YouTube videos. Back in 2015, I bought the official pdf from Bob, but it never really got around to executing this, sorry Bob.
For many years I have tried everything by sliding my Speakers, with sometimes better results than before, but never the result that "Master Set" now shows, where everything falls into place. However, I know that I still have to fine-tune.. Despite WASP (Wilsen) and Cardas, I tried many times, I didn't get the right result. Admittedly, M.S. is not very easy to perform, but I also did not expect that some things turn out to be audible if you take some effort, with the occasional step back. I was surprised that I had achieved this result so quickly after about 4-5 hours.
As indicated, tried several procedures because my Speaker's are playing everything, so even if it's not right, I gave up too quickly. Fortunately they are on good Iso coins, on a wooden floor, easy to move
My Speaker's, Goldmund Dialogue, are actually more instruments, they really let you hear and know everything.
A separate story is that I already had a set in the 90s that I also got rid of, because I couldn't get a DIY 300B SE amplifier right in terms of sound. I soon regretted that very much. I bought several Goldmund's when they came up for sale, to be sure to find a good set, even a Super Dialogue from France. At one point I had 3 sets! In the end I kept the best and original set. Very good and beautiful precise loudspeakers.
The M.S. I still want to fine-tune, because the Speakers are a bit too much too-in, they now play right in the face, which is a bit too much. It is a pity that the placement is close to the front wall, which is a large window for me. Certainly with the Cardas description they are much further into the room, but with less quality than with M.S. it appears that.
That the central focus of e.g. I can't hear a voice well in the middle yet.
The sound, the improvements, that I want to mention are diverse:
- there is more to observe in space, small details, including percussion
- more calm, not intrusive, no listening fatigue
- much more space and placement in itself, the Speakers disappear
- basses go lower, foundation, more power and impact, and more body to everything
- dynamics, real music
In short, everything sounds nicer, better, more natural, MUSIC.
I do note that several people are too critical, even the M.S. tear down. You don't have to do it or try it, but you're doing yourself a disservice and don't tear it down. The people mentioned above are doing their best to make everything public for everyone.!
It has become quite a story, but I hope that more people will try this anyway.
I asked on a forum in the Netherlands whether the procedure is known, but with very little result.
Regards, Martien, the Netherlands
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Hello Martien,
So good to read of someone who has taken the time to learn and do this speaker set up procedure. It gives very good results and much music listening pleasure. Hopefully some of the links I have provided have helped you in your quest. I found the forum link in my last post to be the most helpful to me as it stated clearly the audio cues you need to listen for.
All The Best Martien,
Steve
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Hello dear audiophiles
I am new to this Forum and would like to share my experiences with the "Master Set".
First of all I would like to thank STVNHARR for all the effort he has taken to make this method known to everyone. Also Bob Robbins and Guy Stuff with their YouTube videos. Back in 2015, I bought the official pdf from Bob, but it never really got around to executing this, sorry Bob.
For many years I have tried everything by sliding my Speakers, with sometimes better results than before, but never the result that "Master Set" now shows, where everything falls into place. However, I know that I still have to fine-tune.. Despite WASP (Wilsen) and Cardas, I tried many times, I didn't get the right result. Admittedly, M.S. is not very easy to perform, but I also did not expect that some things turn out to be audible if you take some effort, with the occasional step back. I was surprised that I had achieved this result so quickly after about 4-5 hours.
As indicated, tried several procedures because my Speaker's are playing everything, so even if it's not right, I gave up too quickly. Fortunately they are on good Iso coins, on a wooden floor, easy to move
My Speaker's, Goldmund Dialogue, are actually more instruments, they really let you hear and know everything.
A separate story is that I already had a set in the 90s that I also got rid of, because I couldn't get a DIY 300B SE amplifier right in terms of sound. I soon regretted that very much. I bought several Goldmund's when they came up for sale, to be sure to find a good set, even a Super Dialogue from France. At one point I had 3 sets! In the end I kept the best and original set. Very good and beautiful precise loudspeakers.
The M.S. I still want to fine-tune, because the Speakers are a bit too much too-in, they now play right in the face, which is a bit too much. It is a pity that the placement is close to the front wall, which is a large window for me. Certainly with the Cardas description they are much further into the room, but with less quality than with M.S. it appears that.
That the central focus of e.g. I can't hear a voice well in the middle yet.
The sound, the improvements, that I want to mention are diverse:
- there is more to observe in space, small details, including percussion
- more calm, not intrusive, no listening fatigue
- much more space and placement in itself, the Speakers disappear
- basses go lower, foundation, more power and impact, and more body to everything
- dynamics, real music
In short, everything sounds nicer, better, more natural, MUSIC.
I do note that several people are too critical, even the M.S. tear down. You don't have to do it or try it, but you're doing yourself a disservice and don't tear it down. The people mentioned above are doing their best to make everything public for everyone.!
It has become quite a story, but I hope that more people will try this anyway.
I asked on a forum in the Netherlands whether the procedure is known, but with very little result.
Regards, Martien, the Netherlands
Thanks for sharing your story, and congrats on getting a sound which pleases you. I would love to see a picture of your system as a means to help understand your result.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=232180)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=232181)
The Dialogue's are placed near to the wall and window, but it is what it is.. Wonderful soundstage
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Hi, I hope the pictures clear things up a bit. I may want to change a few points.
Maybe they try to place a little closer to the side wall. I also want to try to use less too-in, they are really right in your face now. But first I want to recover from the special result.
Thanks again to Steve and Bob. Also emailed Bob with the result, he thought it was nice that I have the Goldmunds, which he talked about in his presentation at RMAF 2014. I had already told him this at the time.
They are bitches of Speakers, they let you hear everything, even if it's not good.. But if it's good, then everything falls into place, like now.!
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Hi,
Interesting to look at the picture. I see what you mean about the big glass window. Do you have any kind of curtain for the window?
As long as you follow the steps in the audioaficionado post #2 you are good. I wouldn't worry much about toe-in. Less is generally better, but it depends on the room.
Enjoy your music.
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Hi,
There is indeed thin net curtains in front of the window, against the view from outside.
You can see, I have done the setup against the short wall, the long wall is not possible, but it works ok.
Not only the toe-in I want something less. I would also like to have the Speakers further away from the wall, but I don't think that's possible. If I try a placement that they are a bit more to the side walls? I'm not sure about keeping the singing voice in the middle, but I don't mind. As a whole it sounds much more natural and self-evident, I think that's the most important thing about the procedure. You now also experience real pressure from the speakers, not only the bass, bus also including the midrange with more body. Possebly this is gone, when the Speakers are more in the room, away from the wall. Thanks.
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To Martine's point above about the distance from the front wall, every pic I've seen of Master Set speaker placement ends up with the speakers very close to the front wall. I'm wondering why this is so. Every other speaker placement guide, and in my experience, the greater the distance from the front wall the better. The old Audio Physic guide (not the new one which bears no relationship) had the speakers halfway into the room with the listening position tightly against the rear wall. (This actually works really well if anyone wants to try). Anyway, are Master Set users happy with soundstage, or are you more enamored with frequency response, the whole loading the room thing I've been hearing?
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Yes, it is true that when speakers are set with Master Set they seem to be close to the wall behind the speakers. This is because one sets the speakers in the zone where the speaker is decoupled from both the wall behind and the wall to the side. It is much the same as the Wilson method's Zone of Neutrality. Note that this zone is never far out in to the room.
The first step in MS is to move the left speaker out in to the room until all sound seems to come from just that one speaker with both playing. I still remember the very first time I tried to do MS and the previous sentence's effect actually happened. I then got curious and kept moving that same speaker farther out in to the room. What happened was that once I crossed some imaginary line the sound immediately moved back to between the two speakers even though I had only moved the one and had left the other up close to the wall.
You want to have the speakers in that area where in the above step you only hear the one speaker.
The rest of MS is all about getting the best smoothest bass and then to match the second speaker. This gives the most even sound across the width of the listening position area.
When you move the speakers farther out in to the room you re-couple with a room boundary and you get limited to a small spot listening area and everything changes when you move off that spot.
FWIW, long ago I used to the old Audio Physic method, and of course thought it to be pretty good. It's just that you are limited to a just one listening position and you need to sit pretty still. Same thing with the Cardas tape measure set up.
All well and good but I do think one gets a better music presentation with MS. I used to listen a lot in Rod's Soundings store and his show set ups and it was simply the best music presentation I had ever heard anywhere. Voice especially sounded natural and very real.
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Thanks so much for your excellent reply, you couldn't have answered more perfectly. And as I suspected, MS addresses FR and room interaction, freeing listeners from the one sweet spot chair. This at the expense of massive soundstage dimension from one position. For myself this isn't optimal. I live alone by choice and no one close to me is the least bit interested in listening to more than a one cut demonstration of the system. And being a soundstage freak locking into one chair is desirable. I do map the room modes and measure for even frequency response, and employ a sort of opposite Master Set whereby I start with the speakers next to the listening position, 90° to either side, and move the speakers backwards in steps until the soundstage locks in, then adjust for frequency. But I think Master Set might work really well in the living room video system (not a HT, a two channel set up) where several listeners around the room view the TV. Thanks again for the explanation, it really helped.
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Thanks for the note and I'm pleased that my reply was a helpful explanation.
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I guess it all depends on what you hope to accomplish. After years of using different rooms, different speakers, and different setup methods, I found I prefer the speakers out in the room further than the pics above. If you want 3 dimensional imaging with depth, you won't get it with the speakers so close to the wall. The front baffles of my speakers are a little more than 5 feet from the wall behind. The image depth begins to collapse at about 4 feet, and is very minimal at 3 feet.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=232420)
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Hi,
Previously I also had the speakers more in the room, but with M.S. procedure you will not be able to do that.
I wonder how Timind this with M.S. accomplished, or has this procedure not been followed in its entirety?
Would also like the speakers further away from the front wall, with me a large window, because it is just very inconvenient. I don't know if you did this with M.S. can reach, Steve tells you that you won't be comfortable with the rest of the procedure. It amazes me that there is still depth in my situation with the speakers so close to the front wall.
Regards, Martien
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Hi,
Previously I also had the speakers more in the room, but with M.S. procedure you will not be able to do that.
I wonder how Timind this with M.S. accomplished, or has this procedure not been followed in its entirety?
Would also like the speakers further away from the front wall, with me a large window, because it is just very inconvenient. I don't know if you did this with M.S. can reach, Steve tells you that you won't be comfortable with the rest of the procedure. It amazes me that there is still depth in my situation with the speakers so close to the front wall.
Regards, Martien
I tried the MS method after reading about it in this thread, and felt I had it done correctly. The center image was perfect and it stayed centered even when off angle. So what happened? Why are my speakers no longer set up as prescribed by MS? Simple answer is I wasn't happy with the sound. There are many other prescribed methods to getting proper sound so after investigation, I went with a modified Cardas method. I used an online calculator for the Cardas method for my listening area and tweaked it from there.
It depends on what you want to accomplish. The Master Set method did not accomplish what I want from my speakers. The difference in having my speaker 2 feet off the wall (MS) vs 5 feet is incredible. With the speakers out in to the room, the 3 dimensional image is limited only by the recording. You may prefer a different sound, but as long as I have an accommodating room, I'm not going back.
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Nice to read some discussion here.
I'd just like to bring up a couple of points.
One is the supposed 3D sound from having speakers way out in the room. Once upon a time I had speakers this way too and thought it fabulous in every way. Then one day while the music was playing I happened to walk between the speakers to the equipment rack for something. I easily noticed that the sound was not at the equipment rack, as it appeared to be from the listening seat. The music was behind me and between the speakers. This 3D sound is but a beguiling illusion, though it indeed can seem a nice effect. As Martine has pointed out, the 3D sound is still there with MS, and I agree. However I know how it goes and that's that.
Another thing is that the sound one hears from the two speakers is heavily influenced by the interaural time delay between the two speakers and the two ears we have. For whatever reason, when speakers are in the "Zone of Neutrality", decoupled area a couple feet out from the wall, or whatever you want to call it, the interaural time delay seems to completely even out over a large area, and thus the centered stereo image remains over a large listening area. And when the speakers are not in this area, the interaural time delays are different at every single spot in the room, and so it the sound that one hears. Thus the only way one can get somewhat decent imaging is to sit exactly in the middle axis of the two speakers and sit pretty still. This is perfectly fine for single listeners as noted in previous posts.
It's just listening to music and enjoying the moments of that listening.
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Yes stvnharr, it is an illusion, that's the whole idea of stereo reproduction. And your experience of walking between your speakers is quite valid. That's how I start with speaker placement, the speakers directly to the right and left of the listening position along a longitudinal line between nodes and nulls. Then move the speakers towards the front wall until it clicks. I've been intrigued with Master Set since it first came on the scene, but I've never tried it. My thanks to you and everyone here explaining it, great posts. I'm wondering if any MS users maps their room for nulls and modes, and if so where the resulting speaker placement lands. BTW, if anyone wants to experience omnidirectional sound, pull your speakers out to either side of your listening chair, pointing forward as they are now, on the same lateral line they are now, just 90° to either side of your chair. I suggest everyone do this to know how far down the soundstage rabbit hole you can go. After all, it's as stvnharr says, is just enjoying these moments.
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As to nodes and nulls............
There is a good You Tube video by the Dynaudio speaker guys that gets into nodes and nulls. I don't think I included a link to it in this thread though. FWIW, the basic idea of finding the "Best, Loudest, Smoothest" bass in MS is all about NOT putting ones speakers on a node or null point in the room. Doing it by ear is probably as good as any other way. Nodes and nulls are products of room dimensions and are there. You can take them out with DSP, but without a DSP program you just live with them. You have to have a music note that hits that particular frequency and how long does a singular music note last?
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As for the 3D illusion, not all recordings have this trait. If it's in the mix though, I want to hear it. You may get some of it with speakers back near the wall, but you won't get the full effect, you won't hear it as deep.
Also, my experience differs from stvnharr's when walking between the speakers. For me, even standing behind the speakers, I hear the sound mostly in front of me. This phenomenon has always amazed me.
After a lot of years, a lot of listening, a lot of gear, and several rooms, I've come to the conclusion there is no "right," there is no "better," there is only what the listener prefers. Find your bliss and enjoy it.
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Perhaps my 3D post was not as well written as it could have been.
I would hope that forward firing box speakers have the sound in front of the speakers, as that it how it is radiated out from each speaker. I didn't mean to give the impression that it was not.
In music listening and audio most everything comes down to personal preference.
However, since this thread is about a particular way of setting speakers in a room, I think a few things stand out to me.
The ways of setting speakers that use audio cues, Sumiko/Master Set, Wilson Audio Speaker Procedure, and Stirling Trayle's way, all have the speaker in roughly the same area of the room and end up with similar results - a near perfect summation of two speakers to be as one. There are still compromises and effects that need to be accounted for, all under room effects. And if one reads the procedures, most of this stuff is addressed somewhat.
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I can't see a thing wrong with any of your posts, you explained your 3D experience quite well, we just expanded on it and didn't go in the direction you intended. And your very polite manner of suggesting we get back on topic is also well done.
Another big roadblock to adopting Master Set comes from martine when he notes after only 4 of 5 hours he is getting close to achieving what he wants. I can appreciate all good things come from hard work and time invested, but jeez, 5 hours to get close? And he's not alone, every description of MS includes long periods of learning the process and performing the adjustments. This has to be a deterrent to many who just want to plug in the Cardas formula and be done with it. For myself it's not, I'm still interested and thinking about giving it a try.
So let's throw out another discussion point, what about diagonal room placement whereby the listeners face a corner? Does the process change? Is that a no fly zone?
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Setting speakers from audio cues is difficult and can be very time consuming. I certainly know all about this. Had I not heard the Master Set sound in person I would be like everyone else, and not really be bothered much to do it. So I certainly understand people not wanting to spend 2-3 hours, or more, setting up their speakers and having difficulty doing it. I wanted to do it enough, so I would do it. I find the end result to be worth the effort.
It is quite easy for me to recommend the audioaficianado post as it made everything much easier for me. However, I was not doing the procedure for the first time, so that makes a real difference. But I think the poster does go in to detail on what to do when/if it gets difficult, which is helpful.
Diagonal placement of speakers in a room is really no different from the more standard placements. Everything is still in play in regard to effects of the room boundaries. The reflection points would certainly be different. I think a lot just depends on the shape and dimensions of the room.
I can only add that the speaker placement ways using a tape measure, while easy to do, tend to not offer much, IMO. I did them in the past, following the instructions to the nth degree. Joachim Gerhard's Audio Physic method is at least based on something, and speakers in the middle of the room do have a particular sound. The Cardas ratios just don't seem to be based on anything and presume one has a completely symmetrically dimensioned room. With these somewhat random placements, great sound can be had with implementation of good dsp.
Then again, implementation of good dsp is not simple and can be very time consuming.
And as noted previous, it truly is all about personal preference.
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Hi, Master Set Freaks
I say this jokingly, but have since realized that the music is going to sound "real".
A 2nd attempt I did it yesterday, with the speakers further apart and no toe-in, but could not hear and determine things correctly. It now sounds a lot less, no bass pressure, a bare, less warm middle, and no focus.
I do the placement on the short wall, as can be seen in the photos. I find it difficult how far you have to stay from the side wall, now I think it was too close, or because of the straight placement the middle area is too large. It has become clear that a little toe-in is better for the focus of the soundstage.
It's very difficult to do it alone without a helper, I don't know anyone who wants, understands and can do this.. You always have to slide and listen again, very difficult but worth it! But also in the beginning the Speakers are to close too the frontwall, its about 1/2 foot..
I'm going to try again using the Link from stvnharr in audioaficionado, I hadn't studied this very well yet, it seems very good in detail. However, I still don't quite understand ONE thing. It concerns turning the Speaker for correct too-in application. It talks about the rear-outer point of the Speaker, but is meant here, the pivot point or shift point. Because the bass setting must remain correct. I hope one of you can clarify this very well. I'm decent in English, but just not good enough. Thanks in advance and let you know if another attempt was successful.
I do want to say, that in the past, and that is really 10-20 years, I always shuffle around and try to place the Speakers better. With Cardas, and Wilsen, Hales and a few more with the tape measure etc. This single has already cost me a lot of time and frustration. so I'm really glad I finally gave the MasterSet a chance. Especially partly due to the publications of some of you here on the Forum. I can already tell that the results are better than all that messing around in the past. It doesn't have to be for everyone, but as noted before, it just takes time, patience and perseverance. I am very grateful to the designers of yesteryear and a number of people here on the Forum.
Best regards, Martien The Netherlands.
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Martine,
I will try to assist you here, as best I can. I have heard the Master Set as done by the originator, I have done it myself successfully following the steps in the audioaficionado post, and should be able to give you reasonable advise.
First off, I assume you have a copy of the desired track, Ballad of a Runaway Horse. If not, then send me a Personal Message and I can help you out.
Second, I have always done this by myself. Thus I like doing it by myself. You have complete control over everything this way.
Third, follow instructions as to size of the speaker movements. In my situation I can use the piles of the carpet as a measure. But you can also use a tape measure for this if you need to. Many of the movements need to be very small, as in a couple millimeters, which is just a nudge. It's best to not estimate as the movements that way are usually too much.
Fourth, I know you are doing it on the short wall, which makes it all a lot lot harder, but it's not impossible. It's harder because of possible sidewall reflection issues. Wilson does short wall setups and they make note of sidewall reflections and even recommend a certain product. My advise here is to be sure you have the speaker center at least 2 feet out from the sidewall, preferably more. You need to be decoupled from the sidewall!!!! You also have to use toe-in here. You can determine the toe-in from your listening seat as directed in the post.
Fifth, in the initial setup, you might like to turn the right speaker 45 degrees out, rather than straight ahead. I do this, and Rod Tomson recommends this. Also, you can start with the left speaker out in to the room a bit, rather than close to the wall. This will save you some time.
Fourth, as to "marking" a spot....... I put down a strip of wide masking tape on the carpet close to the front inside corner of the speaker. As I move the speaker out and find points to mark. I just mark the tape with a pen.
Now to the Steps:
Part 2, Step One is about setting the anchor speaker. You need to have the volume up as much as possible. This made things much easier for me when I started to do this. The post does not mention moving the left speaker out until all sound comes from just the left speaker. I believe your Bob Robbins instructs do mention this. I think it important as when this happens the speaker is decoupled from the wall behind. This should be roughly 2 feet out into the room. This 2 feet is the front of the speaker, NOT the back. The sound comes from the speaker baffle at the front. The rear of the speaker is irrelevant. Once you reach this point, that is the first place to mark, as now you are ready to begin assessing the bass output. If you have to start over again this is also the point where you can start.
Follow the step instructions as closely as possible. The difference in bass loudness is small. You have to listen very carefully. Nothing is going to jump out at you. You've done the process a few times already so are a bit familiar with the bass line. You just need to be very familiar with this to note any small changes. I like to pay attention to the 12th note of the first verse as that seems to have the most change. I tend to go with what sounds smoothest here. But listen to the whole song and the bass.
Take breaks as needs to rest your ears!!!!!
Once you find "The Spot" for the anchor speaker, I like to run a piece of tape across the rear of the speaker and a it on the outside rear of the speaker so that you have a complete corner marked. This is out of normal sight and is a good reference should the speaker get slightly moved or something.
Part 2 - Step Two, Close the Gate
This is about moving the right speaker out to match the left speaker. Do as best you can per instructions and listen to the bass line. The voice and bass will move to the center pretty quickly. But the more you move the speaker out into the room the center image will just get stronger. This is fairly easy to hear. Get the bass as good as you can, then pay attention to the voice. There is a very small area of moving the speaker where the voice gets really strong. It's an area of only a few millimeters so you have to make small movements to catch it. There is also a point in the song where the voice gets real strong at about 2:30. This is easy to hear and a good point to focus on.
When you think you have found the point of best sound, lean yourself over to the left as far as possible and note if the sound stays centered or moves with you. Also lean to the right and listen the same. If you have the proper spot the sound will stay in the middle. If the sound moves then you have to continue moving the speaker out into the room, or back to the wall until you find "The Spot. This is critical!!!! You are not done until you get this perfect!!!
Part 3... You can safely ignore this step as you are too limited in placement to adjust the speakers.
Last Step......setting the Rake angle is also something you can safely ignore.
Hope this long post helps you.
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Hi Steve,
Thank you very much for your detailed response, I will give it a 3rd attempt in a few days. Like the 1st time the Speakers closer together, before I had them with the center at 83 cm from the side wall. They are now too wide, whith a holy in the middle of the sound, also whith forniture in the room. I kept coming up with this size, so why not now. And a little toe-in. Also, you said it, I have to turn up the volume loud enough. It'll be fine, especially with your directions, I'll let you know what the result will be. Thank you again, Martien
>>Edit, Steve, I have the original 24-bit Duets CD, of which I use the first 20 sec, 30x on a USB stick via MP3 player. This afternoon I put the Speakers back on the 1th M.S. place, although perhaps just not exactly, it was immediately told that everything was correct again. Unbelievable: it sounds real again, stage. As ONE Speaker. Spatial stage. Details that were previously inaudible. Still, I'm going to make another 3rd attempt. Martien
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Hey,
Yesterday a 3rd M.P. done, however, could be heard immediately, not good, like the 1st. The 2nd attempt was not good by being too far apart from the Speakers. This 3rd was little difference from the 1st attempt. A number of things, such as changes in the bass, were hard to hear. Adjusting the right-speaker correctly to the left-speaker was also not heard correctly. The 1st time M.S. everything could be heard correctly. Also places back to the 1st M.S. cannot be set correctly. At the 1st M.S. I used a very good DigitalAudio converter from my Mark Levinson 309s. However, this is now for repair for the CD player. Unfortunately I have to wait for it to come back. The dimensions of the settings between M.S. 1 and M.S. 3, measured at the Speakers are not more than half to 1 cm. That's how close it is between good and bad. Even reverting to the 1st settings I have not yet correct. This already says something about the correct execution of M.S. You can immediately hear whether it is right or not, from the focus, dynamics and sound. It should really pop out of the speakers. When the Mark Levinson is back I will try again, unfortunately.. The 1st time I got M.S. done, from Steve's quote, the Revisited 2019, on the 1st page of this site, a very good writing. Martien
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Hi Martine,
You just have to keep at it until you get it just right.
Yes, hearing the bass is hard, but it is how it is. You just get it to the best you think it is, and that is good enough.
Getting the second speaker to match the first is the most critical element. It is a very small spot where this happens, only a few millimeters. Everything should stand out very well when you get this spot right.
Be patient.
Steve
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Hi, I'll be back soon and very happy. The measured distances of the 1st M.S. , which I had noted, I checked this morning with extra care. It only differed here and there by 1 or 2 millimeters, really. It was immediately heard, everything is right again. The only thing I have trouble with is the voice in the middle and the size of the voice. For the rest it's really live music again: lots of space, small details in the room, no inclination to skip a song, the bass can be felt in the stomach. the 2 speakers really form a unit by ear. If everything sounds perfect, a few other facts also stand out, the music seems to sound slow and relaxed and you can listen to it for much longer, even at a higher volume.Unbelievable that this has to depend on a few millimeters!! Regards, Martien
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Congratulations!!!
You have been able to do it! Getting the second speaker to make the perfect match with the first speaker so that they are as ONE, is hard to do. But it is the essence of what this procedure is all about.
It is truly amazing how just a tiny movement can make such a difference in sound.
All the Best,
Steve
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Thanks a lot Steve for all the time and care you put into it. It's a very good procedure. My Dialogue's have never given such extensive bass and bass pressure and such a beautiful soundstage. Thanks Steve
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Hi Folks,
It's been a while since I posted something. I'm curious if anyone else has taken this seriously. It is still amazing how wonderful and real the music sounds when both speakers sound as one. The great thing is that all sources can now perfectly let themselves be heard. Whether it's the Turntable or the CD player, or an MP3 player, everything is reproduced perfectly. This is by-far the best upgrade!! I know it's not 100% right now, such as the correct size and placement of the voice, but if the bass pressure and the speakers sound as ONE, a lot has already been achieved.
The things that stand out to me in the music in my wording are:
- increased dynamics, a wider frequency range from lower bass to highs without sharpness - more power and pressure in the low and mid-low (body) of sounds - a more spacious image of instruments, making small details more noticeable, both in width and depth - really detached from the speakers - tendency to play louder because it sounds so good - more sounding out (extinction) - less boredom - no listening fatigue - more calm - not intrusive - music seems slower, you want it out of the speakers draw - really natural sounding of the music with more emotion ! As music is meant to be...
Many thanks to Steve, Bob Robbins and Guy Stuff and several other people.
Best regards, Martien
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Hi, I'll tell you how good this upgrade is. A number of people talk about the time it takes to get close to perfection. However it is worth it. It is not only good in the center. Usually I sit on one side of the couch, a little closer to 1 speaker, at least 6 meters further away from the speakers. A live recording of e.g. a good piece of Blues, John Mayall, Eric Clapton, etc, but also the 9e off Beethoven is, phenomenal.! It sounds when they are really in your room. Do not forget that you first set up 1 speaker ideally in the room, stated on the bass pressure. This is then an acoustic loss of the room, and separate from the other 2nd loudspeaker, so not disturbed by the effects of the room. Then you go the other 2nd speaker overview on the 1st speaker. When this is ideal, they sound like ONE speaker, unimaginable. Wherever you are in your room, it sounds like ONE whole, with space, depth, with more focus and dynamics. The music is hardly influenced by the effects of the space, it comes out of the loudspeakers with force and pressure in the low, mid-low and live to the high tones. A lead guitar, man it's just real. Drums have power and pressure, as they should be. You want/can turn it up because it fatigues much less, because it is real. I may seem crazy, but I missed this for years, that's how music should sound. Yes, just our ears can recognize everything in a natural tone. It's not perfect, the trunk in the middle could be better and also the right size, but that's a small point that doesn't stand out. What is striking is the authenticity and dynamics of the music in the room, wide and separate from the speakers, with depth and signature that you cannot achieve otherwise. I hope to surprise more people with this as it is very nice your music sounds as it is intended. And if you put a better cable somewhere or a nicer Amp, better speakers, it might sound better. But if you can't arrange the placement of the speakers as well as possible, the upgrades are disappointing.
THIS is and remains the best upgrade!! Regards, Martien
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Hi Martien,
Great write-up!!!!
Steve
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Hi,
Just an additional note. Especially for Steve, as a result of the photos you asked what is hanging in front of the window, witch is the backwall behind the speakers. This is a thin curtain, net curtains. I already answered this. However in the evening I lower Luxaflex in front of the window and curtain, against a view. I have noticed a few times that it sounds much less in the evening as a whole. So this is because of the Luxaflex, I found out. As soon as I pull it back up, the good stage is back. This concerns the influence of the wall/window behind the speakers, which is very important. As a result, the distance from the speakers to that wall is no longer correct, and has a lot of influence on the entire display. I don't know if everyone knows what Luxaflex is, these are 2 cm plastic slats that you can open and close. You can pull them up with a cord and lower them in front of the window. I hope this is clear, I didn't want to withhold this comment from you.
Best regards, Martien
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New November 2022
The post below supercedes all previous posts in this thread about Master Set. I have done my best to clean up my previous postings to eliminate any discrepancies.
This is a set of DIY instructions for those people interesting in trying this procedure for themselves. This is all based on the actual Sumiko instructions that became Master Set. The actual Sumiko instructions can be found in the audioaficianado link. However AA now has a paywall and I respect this. Subscribing is not expensive however, if you wish to read the actual instructions.
BEGINNINGS
1. Listen to the song Ballad of a Runaway Horse and get familiar with it. Try to get a reference for how this song sounds to you in your present speaker layout. This procedure is all about audio cues and hearing small changes in the song. It helps to have a reference at the very beginning.
2. The beginning speaker layout has the speakers flat up against the wall in with their usual spacing. The listening position can be a couple feet behind the triangle point with the speakers from this setting. Keep in mind that the speakers will end up coming into the room a couple feet or more and you want to position yourself a bit behind the final triangle point with the speakers. That will work best.
3. Take a moment and just observe the listening room layout with regards the left-right symmetry of the room. This may helps you later on if you have issues of any kind.
4. Play the song LOUD, louder than normal listening level.
STEP ONE
This is known as Setting the Anchor Speaker in Master Set. This involves setting the left speaker as a reference point in a position so as to give the best and smoothest bass response.
You start by playing the song set on repeat. You may turn the right speaker out 45 degrees as I find this helps. Then you move the left speaker perpendicularly into the room until ALL sound seems to come just from this left speaker. This will occur when the speaker baffle is about 2 feet into the room. At this point you can put a piece of masking tape behind the speaker on the floor as this is a kind of beginning point. Also, adjust the toe in of the speaker so that you have what you want. I find it best to keep the toe in to a minimum. But do it now and keep the toe in the same as you move along.
Now the procedure really begins. Move the speaker out into the room another 2-3 inches and place the piece of tape behind the speaker. This is the true beginning point that you can refer back to if you need to do a reset at any time. Also place a long piece of masking tape along the inner front corner of the speaker and place it perpendicular to the wall behind. This will help you keep the movements straight and give you something to make the needed markings on. Then move the speaker in very small increment, about 1/8th inch, and listen to ONLY the bass line. The Sumiko instructions note that you should listen to BASS PRESSURE. Do the best that you can. The bass line is easiest to listen to in the first minute of the song and I do most of my bass line listening in this portion of the song. At the very first position just listen to the bass a couple times and get real familiar with it. You will be listening for changes to this reference as you go along. With each speaker movement note any change you think you hear. Changes tend to be small and subtle so you have to listen hard. Note any change as in a quieter note or a louder/twangy note. The Sumiko instructions state, "What to look for: Your priorities in the step are 1) Bass output - Is it louder? 2) Bass Extension - Does it go lower? 3) Bass Linearity - Can I hear all the notes?" Do the best you can with this in mind is all I can tell you.
My experience is that I mostly only hear changes in the 12th bass note of the first verse of the song. The changes go from smooth to slightly loud/twangy. Your experience may vary.
The final position you select should be the one that gives the smoothest bass while hearing all notes and none of them twangy. When you think you are happy take some masking tape and tape all around the speaker. Or at a minimum, tape at the rear of the speaker and the outside so as to from a tape corner point on the rear outside corner of the speaker. Then check the top of the speaker for level, and measure the distance to the wall from the two rear corners. Write these measurements down on paper. This establishes the speaker position. When you put the spikes back under the speaker make sure the speaker position matches the taped corner and the measurements, EXACTLY.
I find that you can now put the speaker spikes back under the speaker and consider the Anchor speaker to be set, and never moved from this position.
STEP TWO
This is known as Closing the Gate. This is a step where you move the right speaker into the room so as to match the bass pressure of the Anchor speaker which will then firm up everything that is desired.
Now move the right speaker out into the room from the position against the wall. Be sure to have the same amount of toe-in as in the anchor speaker. You can start by moving it a few inches. You will note that the voice sound will quickly center itself between the speakers, even with the right speaker still not very far out into the room. However, final speaker position will be somewhat the same distance out into the room as the Anchor speaker, so keep moving the right speaker out until you are about 3-4 inches from the distance as the Anchor speaker. Then do as before with the anchor speaker with tape behind and along the inner front corner. And as before now move the speaker in small 1/8th increments listening to the bass pressure, if possible. When you near the matching point the bass will get slightly stronger, as will the voice. But in general you will not hear any change in anything with most movements. The voice will stay centered and the bass will stay the same. It is only at the matching point will there be any changes. And if you move too far into the room the voice will move to the right and get a bit less. IF this should happen then move the speaker back about an inch and place a piece of tape across the front of the speaker, and go back to the starting point. The matching point will be somewhere around the middle of the 2 pieces of tape, so that can help you narrow the search area.
At the matching point you should note a stronger bass line, or increase in bass pressure, and a stronger vocal line. The bass can be heard throughout the song. The best place to hear a stronger voice line is at about 2:25 to 2:35 in the song.
When you think you are near the matching point make smaller movements with the speaker, 1/16th, or just a small nudge, is all that is needed. You are searching for a spot that is no bigger than 1/8th inch, so it is easy to miss.
If you think you find this matching point, then confirm by doing the following:
Lean yourself way to the left and then over to the right. Only listen to the bass pressure. Note if it is the same on each side. If not, then note how the right side compares to the left. If right is louder, then move the right speaker towards the wall. If right speaker is lesser, then move the right speaker out more. At the matching point the bass pressure will be the same when you do these leaning movements.
Then when you succeed here, a good double check to do is the following:
Play a mono recording, any mono recording will do. The sound should be fully centered during the leaning test as above. For a further check sit over in front of the right speaker and note the position of the mono sound. It should stay centered. It will stay centered if you have succeeded in finding the matching point.
The next thing you can do is to move the right speaker laterally about 1 inch and either way will do. Listen to the size of the voice and how/if it hanges when you do this lateral movement. Ideally the voice should be 3-4 inches wide.
Then when you are happy, do as with the anchor speaker regarding tape corner and distance measure to the wall, and replace the spikes under the speaker.
THAT IS IT
The Sumiko instructions have 2 more additional fine tuning steps. They are even more difficult and are not really needed. You can consider yourself DONE.
FINAL NOTES
This is all not easy. It took me a long time to get success in this. I have tried to include as many helpful notes as I can in the posting. The audio cues and changes you are listening for are subtle and hard to hear. They do not just jump out at you. You may very well do everything in the instructions and never hear anything different. This is actually quite common, and it has happened to me. You then have to start over. That is why I mention some tape placings as beginning points It will likely happen the first time you do the Anchor point step after getting all the sound to the left speaker.
It gets even harder in Closing the Gate step. If/when this gets hard and repeating doesn't seem to work, STOP and take a break. Go back and watch the You Tube video from Co Guy. That video can get quite helpful.
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Thanks so much for the post, very appreciated. I'm redoing the audio room after a couple disasters and I'm thinking about a corner placement. How does master set work for that and would you recommend any changes.
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I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Corner Placement". Do you mean like a Klipschorn in the corner?
If so, that would not be good as the speakers would be fully coupled to both walls and the walls would be the speaker baffle. Unless the speakers are designed for that, it would not be so good.
At least that is my thought, since you asked.
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Thanks so much for the post, very appreciated. I'm redoing the audio room after a couple disasters and I'm thinking about a corner placement. How does master set work for that and would you recommend any changes.
Or do you mean speakers in a diagonal setup? That's what I got from your question.
Curious how this would affect the master setup.
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Or do you mean speakers in a diagonal setup? That's what I got from your question.
Curious how this would affect the master setup.
Diagonal, yes, not corner like Allison or Klipschorns. Duh. I'm redoing the listening room, I may or may not change to diagonal. I'm more likely to try the master set the way it is. I had it dialed in really well before things went south. But if someone's tried it on the diagonal I might give it a go.
Since I had Maggie's years ago I became a placement guru. I sold the Maggie's and bought the Meadowlarks so I wouldn't be trying a new placement every week. Master Set is the only one I haven't tried yet.
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Now I'm curious which Meadowlarks you're using. One of my all-time favorite speakers. Back when I was using a 12x12x8 spare bedroom I had a pair of Kestrels setup in a diagonal configuration. It was the best sound I could get in that room.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=140276)
As to whether you can use the master set in a diagonal, that's a question for stvharr.
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Well, since you asked.......................
FWIW, I am not trained by Sumiko in this. Everything is just what I have learned on my own. So, while I post from my own success in doing the setup, it is just that and no more.
As to the diagonal set up of speakers and Master Set. It could possibly be okay I would think. You have to have the speakers in the "Decoupled zone" out from the wall and have the bass pressure matched - it would work.
My double check method with the mono disc is pretty definitive if you have the speakers in a matched position with regards to each other. At least I think so.
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Now I'm curious which Meadowlarks you're using. One of my all-time favorite speakers. Back when I was using a 12x12x8 spare bedroom I had a pair of Kestrels setup in a diagonal configuration. It was the best sound I could get in that room.
As to whether you can use the master set in a diagonal, that's a question for stvharr.
Shearwater Hot Rods. Lovely speakers, a little on the polite side for me, and I like polite sounding speakers. So I also have some Celestions, the opposite of polite. And some PSBs, and some Snells, and some...
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Well, since you asked.......................
FWIW, I am not trained by Sumiko in this. Everything is just what I have learned on my own. So, while I post from my own success in doing the setup, it is just that and no more.
As to the diagonal set up of speakers and Master Set. It could possibly be okay I would think. You have to have the speakers in the "Decoupled zone" out from the wall, not sitting on a room mode or null spot, and have the bass pressure matched - it would work.
My double check method with the mono disc is pretty definitive if you have the speakers in a matched position with regards to each other. At least I think so.
Thanks, still deciding what to do.
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I am trained by Sumiko... although it's been a few years. :roll:
The great thing about the masters set, is you can do it anywhere. You can even do it with surround systems, but that is a complex issue.
You can do it anywhere and all you need is your ears and that horrible song! It helps greatly to have a partner. I've posted about it before, possibly in detail. I've been experimenting with some other methods combined with masters and have had a great result. It's an unrelated post, but I talk about it here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183828.0
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Thanks, still deciding what to do.
I have been thinking about this since I posted yesterday. One thing you could try without too much difficulty is to move the right speaker to be back and up against the wall, turned it out as much as possible, likely parallel with the wall. Keep the left speaker in it's present position. Then just play something and see if you only hear the left speaker. That would emulate the process in the First Step. Depending on the results you could proceed with trying to find the best bass spot. Or just give it up.
I'm thinking this would likely work, but it would be hard to know without actually trying.
Also, I have made a couple small modifications in my previous posts. I have taken out references to placing speakers on modes and nulls spots. The posts in the AA instructions don't really mention that, so I shouldn't either. The italicized quote in Post #75 is the proper wording of what to listen for.
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Thanks for the update. I've already mapped out the 2D room modes back when I first moved in here a few years ago, so it wouldn't be difficult using them. I've done this so many times in so many rooms over the years that is pretty formula for me now with placement, map the room and here's where they go, done. But I always like experimentation and after some mishaps I thought I might do something different than just planting the replacement speakers in the same spots.
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I am trained by Sumiko... although it's been a few years. :roll:
The great thing about the masters set, is you can do it anywhere. You can even do it with surround systems, but that is a complex issue.
You can do it anywhere and all you need is your ears and that horrible song! It helps greatly to have a partner. I've posted about it before, possibly in detail. I've been experimenting with some other methods combined with masters and have had a great result. It's an unrelated post, but I talk about it here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183828.0
Nice to have your input in the thread.
If it all was more interactive with people trying to do Master Set, your expertise would be very helpful indeed.
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Nice to have your input in the thread.
If it all was more interactive with people trying to do Master Set, your expertise would be very helpful indeed.
I think your descriptions are about as good as you can get online. The in person experience was fairly intensive and we had to demonstrate the skill and then have a listening session based on our "set".
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Thanks.
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February Update:
I recently tweaked my MS speaker placement. I took out even more of the toe-in. I went down to 1 inch of toe-in. I then took some more out, but did not like the aesthetics, so I went back to the 1 inch setting. This is 1 inch of toe-in on a 9 inch wide speaker.
The effect was to open up the sound even more and make the left-right sound even wider than before.
The net effect of this with large group music, like orchestral and choral, is that it makes the sound very big. A large chorus now sounds like a large chorus. The string sound of a large orchestra now resembles the actual concert sound in a concert hall.
This is all a huge difference to me in my listening.
My original toe-in setting of about 2 1/2 inches didn't seem like it was all that much. But it did compress the sound into the center in a noticeable way. And taking the toe-in out, as I have done, has just made a mind boggling difference in the sound.
HIGHLY RECOMMENDED
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Newish Master Set video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Toiwe-Xe98
Some good points here, especially with regards to the importance of bass.