[budget minded]

i've been researching DAC and amps to get a more liquid sound out of my system without getting too much into the realm of lower resolution easy on the ears overly romantic and lush sound, but a little less clinical sounding than what i have now too. i recently upgraded my system to a very revealing pair of energy RC10 5 1/4" 2 ways with my first aluminum domes ever, and am getting a dry lean sound now with my panasonic SA-XR55 class D receiver as well as DAC being fed from a 10 year old sony DVD changer. i'm sure i don't want to go all tubey as my sony sounds more thick and lush than my onboard DAC, but i prefer the razor precise imaging and treble resolution of the panasonic DAC more even if it's a bit clinical. it really sounds better on percussion in particular with "ruthless ambience" retrieval i can hear small studio rooms on more.

 

i've narrowed my search down to the sound and budget of the schiit gungnir DAC which sounds like it'd be more neutral and detailed tastes than yulong and eastern electric DACs with especially more bass slam for my minis with their ports plugged as i like the faster better damped punchy sound of acoustic suspension after lightning fast planars. i avoid soft warm sound like the plague practically and always chose acoustic suspension mini-monitors. with or without subs, and quicker 8" subs if given a choice.

 

for similar reasons, i'm also looking into the TBI millenia class D amp as it should have more ease and resolution than my current system, nice bass slam, and a musical liquid sound that bridges the best of solid state and tube. i already have a deep cycle 12v car battery i've never used for an instant power upgrade too. with a battery upgrade, the TBA amp is compared a lot to the sound of SET amps with a little more slam and resolution than lushness. i listen at low levels too and wonder if an amp with more control would be better for that.

 

i'm trying to figure out where i'll get the biggest improvement as my first step. in the past, i really loved the sound of my detail rich panasonic much more forgiving and slow soft domes versus NAD warmth i thought was like a wet blanket with NHT superzeros, but now think it's too much for my metal domes. ironically enough, i SLIGHTLY preferred the very similar to panasonic sound of the sony's DAC on NHT soft domes for some reason i can only imagine was because it fills the image out thicker and vocals have more body and sound less like tiny pinpoints.

 

my first instinct was to go with the DAC upgrade and start improvements at the source, and get a better idea of system synergy, but now wonder if a better amp pairing can make as dramatic an improvement as NAD to class D amplification on soft domes. a more musical amp would bring the panasonic sound i prefer closer to the sony musicality. that, and my panasonic got offed in round two of a shootout that a trends amp won, and the TBI supposedly clobbers not only that, but several other budget contenders like kingrex & ampino. i might be inclined to like the NAD more now which probably got paired with B&W & paradigm etc. a lot back in the day.

 

both my tired DACs and "dry etched" amp stage are in need of an upgrade. which component do you think would gain more from the first upgrade, source or amplification to get an easy lifelike sound that isn't too clinical or sickeningly sweet? for what it's worth, i really liked the warm laid back sound of a dragonfly DAC on a warm modded mc cormack amp and vandersteen unobtanium model 5s in a local shop... very mellow laid back sound compared to my current system, and maybe a little too thick and warm in the long run, but nice on vocals with a HUGE 10 foot image/spacing.

 

the DAC is also $200-$250 more than the amp if anyone wants to factor bang for the buck. i'd rather audition both units in my system first and see for myself, but i'm sure there's enough gear swappers here that would have more experience with source and amplification swapping. i'd also like to get a more solid image as i can't get my speakers much closer than a yard apart with my 42" wide screen in between them so i'm getting a little bit of L/R highlighting that would solidify more with the speakers another few inches closer as it was even more hollow in the center another 3-4 inches wider

[wisnon]

All I can say is that I love that lille TBI amp. Vivacious sound.

[Atlplasma]

I have the Schiit Bifrost and really like it. What I've read about the Gungnir is positive and would be considering it, but I'm saving for a DSD DAC. In any case, Schiit has a 15 day trial period.

[budget minded]

yes, BOTH units have great sound quality. deciding which to get first though is the problem.

i was thinking of getting the bifrost DAC too for a minute as i was liking the sound of it's "detailed and neutral" sound character more than the lush sound of yulong D18s and eastern electric mini-maxes. then after seeing that the gungnir is even more resolving and liquid with extra bass slam, it seemed worthwhile to stretch my budget back to the $700 range for "the last DAC i'll ever need". i like cheap gear, but not if i have to keep upgrading and would rather get it right the first time so to speak.

either upgrade would greatly improve my system i'm sure, i'm just trying to figure out which link is weaker in my system, my receiver, or tired old consumer grade DACs. my energy RC10s really tell it like it is about the gear upstream. now i can hear both the digital sound of my DACs and the clinical sound of my receiver.

[roscoeiii]

You keep mentioning "bass slam" so I will recommend the amp upgrade (if the TBI is judged sufficient to power your 88dB sensitive speakers). An amp upgrade will impact your bass more than a DAC will. Though how well the TBI will pair with you speakers is something I can't speak to. But speaker-amp matching is critical to get the most out of your speakers.

And speaking of speakers, why not change those? You are talking about an amp and DAC that each cost more than a pair of your speakers (at least double the price of the speakers from what I can tell!).

Speakers are the most important component in a system, bar none. And should be spent on appropriately. Spending double the cost of an amp and a DAC on your speakers seems a much more sensible ratio.

Upgrading speakers will give you much greater bang-for-your-buck improvement than either amp or DAC.

[budget minded]

NOT upgrading my speakers. i just bought them, and i love them. they originally listed for $700, have been compared to $1000 speakers just like my previous NHT superzeros, and to my ears, do almost everything better than zeros... more treble speed and detail, definitely deeper bass extension, even with my ports plugged, and i really like the high end look of the kevlar cones and aluminum phase plug. to my ears, they're awesome, just much more revealing of the sources feeding them than my superzeros.

i actually like the sound of my system now just fine, but now want to upgrade my sources to something more in the energy RC10's league than japanese consumerware. if i upgraded the speakers, it would only be after getting an acceptable source and amp upgrade, and after much time as i don't suffer from upgradeitis. i sold my NHTs when i needed some money last year, and have suffered through boomy thin walled mission M71s and celestion ditton 100s that the energys spank in every way, except the bass extension of the internally larger celestions with 8 inch woofers.

that my energys are so revealing is why i want to upgrade my sources. my superzeros were much more forgiving to the point i really had to strain to hear differences between my sony and panasonic DACs that are night and day different with the RC10s, and always wanted more HF crispness and sparkle as silk domes don't exactly do cowbells etc. justice.

these are "just the speakers i want"... bigger and better materials than superzeros, with similarly excellent imaging and freedom from dreaded port boom i despise, in a smaller package than comparable paradigm and B&Ws, again, without the ports. 5 1/4" is the perfect size for minimonotors for me. i don't feel the need for a sub at all.

bass "slam" might not have been the right word as i think it generally means power, but i mean it in terms of speed. that's why i love my 5 1/4" woofers... very fast! it's startling how dynamic they sound on the bass drum thwaks of the three suns' fun rendition of fever. i think at least in that department, my RC10s would sound TIGHTER than paradigm & B&W speakers with ports and larger 6 1/2" woofers. i loved the bass i heard out of a former friend's $100 infinitys with 4 1/2" poly woofers and styrofoam tweeters. i'd auditioned all kinds of gear up to klipsch lascalas on mcintosh gear at various shops, but it wasn't until i heard bass that was quick and undistorted that i got excited and became an acoustic suspension minimonitor fan. i only like planars more for even better speed.

there aren't a lot of acoustic suspension makers out there, and many still use soft domes. the repected tweeters were another reason i chose RC10s. i've listened to NHT classic 3s which WOULD have been my preferred upgrade, but there's just too much aluminum going on in those, and i didn't like the slight ping sound i heard in those. that, and they're REALLY power hungry and need to be cranked.

i'm totally happy with my current monitors even if they violate the law of "a lot 50% of your budget for speakers" rule considering the upgrades i plan on making, but i definitely don't want bigger speakers, andif anything, would go the opposite direction for 4 1/2" minis with even better ribbon or whatever tweeters that i don't think anyone is even making. what i have now for speakers exactly suits my tastes and satisfies my giant killing bent nicely too. they're just too upscale for the gear i have now. i can finally hear all those details i couldn't before with superzeros with much more bass thump to boot, and gorgeous high end looks. that i managed to score them for under $250 delivered only adds to my satisfaction.

i don't want a $5000 system, just one that's properly integrated. i can get a much more relaxed and musical sound switching back to my sony's DAC, but i like the panasonic resolution more. i just want to get more of the same, but with refinement. a DAC & amp upgrade is called for, and i want to stretch my budget a little for gear that's truly high end. some day, i might upgrade my speakers, but with good truly high fi sources, i don't think it would be necessary. you underestimate my speaker's SQ. they are true giant killers and i'm sure as capable as $1,000 bowers and paradigm on equal gear that i doubt can thump as tight or fast with their hideous boomy overhang ports! *BLECH* ports are an abomination! big bass sucks compared to undistorted bass every time in my world. it took a tiny pair of infinitys to make me hear that.

now, if you wanna give me a pair of YG anats or watt puppies... i won't complain. LOL

[roscoeiii]

OK, I am beginning to get the impression that you like your speakers. I have not heard them, and I was just going on a quick Google that showed them to be priced below the gear you are asking about here. I will have to try to hear a pair.

You've clearly put a lot of thought and listening into this selection of speakers. And that is the way it should be done.

And based upon all you have said, I'd say go with the amp first. Though you might want to pop onto the big TBI thread to ask about it there to see who may have driven similarly designed and spec'd speakers with that amp.

If it turns out you need more power, perhaps try the Class D Audio amps. Amazed at how good mine sounds with my big Vonschweikert VR-4s. And I am moments from trying that amp out with the KEF LS50s that just got delivered (a mini-monitor that reviews would suggest might be worthy of your potential upgrade list, if you get the itch down the road).

[roscoeiii]

Also, welcome to AC. This is a great and supportive forum, with many knowledgeable and generous members.

[budget minded]

nope, i shouldn't be needing more than 30wpc. i listen at very low levels as i'm an apartment dweller. (that's the BIGGEST upgrade i WISH i could make! LOL) even my 15wpc sonic impact put more power out than i needed for home listening, but was loud enough so that i could feel the bass on my bike frame with little mission M71s.

if you're looking for an extreme bargain, then energy R-10s are it! they are the best sounding speakers i've ever owned by far, including my original JBL 6 1/2"  2 ways because i couldn't find 5 1/4" infinitys with EMIT tweeters. they are fast and punchy in the mid bass, though won't be extended enough in the bass for many with the ports plugged, but fine with me as 30Hz gives me a headache anyways. as power hungry as NHT classic 3s are, they do put out really nice bass from their 6 1/2" woofers, but the all aluminum 3 ways have a slight metallic sound that ruled those out for me. they image like crazy and have a super fast midrange, but aluminum pinging is just as annoying as the stretched tinfoil ping sound of full sized magnepans that aren't broken in yet.

you're right, i know exactly want in speaker design. the first speakers that ever really impressed me were those little infinitys my friend owned. the bass was light, but was it ever fast, punchy and undistorted. i just don't get how anyone can prefer the sloppy boomy sound of ported speakers. they add resonance and overhang that blurs the bass, really bad in many designs. speed, detail, and freedom from distortions are my thing, so acoustic suspension and especially planars are my thing. the whole reason i bought the panasonic was originally so i could upgrade to MMGs as my onkyo would have blown up, but on superzeros, it cleared the treble and even midrange up enough that i was happy with that combo, even if i couldn't clearly hear the differences between my sony & panasonic DAC like i can now.

the entire reason i went with them, besides glowing reviews for their less than attractive pre-cursors in stereophile was the port plugs which should come standard on any speaker if not being a proper acoustic suspension to begin with. after finding out that infinity had my kind of sound and i went back looking for more acoustic suspension, i became a boston acoustics fan and really wanted their 2 x 8" 3 way towers. those had really tight bass and a nimble midrange.

i'm sure there are more expensive speakers that would sound better than my RC-10s, but they aren't shabby, just not the most forgiving speakers. maybe i should dig up my dayton 15wpc & sure 25wpc class D modules and see what those sound like. i bet i could hear a difference.

the coolest thing about the RC-10s though is how they do dynamics. drum thwaks, even at low levels can be startling. i just can't picture bigger ported bowers and paradigms getting THAT as right as my humble "poseurs". B&Ws probably have better tweeters, especially their high end ones, but energy's aren't shabby at all, just a little bit more aid back at low power levels anyways. i think i've read that they RC-10s like to be cranked up, and are rated to at least 200w, but they make me happy in the eye fi realm too.

they are very flat sounding through most of the frequency range, so they won't be as warm as many like, but the treble is quite fast and revealing, but not quite forward sounding.

[budget minded]

if i upgraded speakers, i might stick with energy and get minis from their veritas (flagship line?) series, of DIY a simple YG kipod clone like this design, but with premium caps and low gauge coils etc. as per the design of the dude that measured a bunch of speakers and tweeters that i lost the link to. he had a simple 6dB system using the same drivers as YG. i couldn't find it with the keyword search tested peerless dayton usher peerless, but he tested gear from them and others with dayton designs being best bargains. i thought the spiral woofer on YG & the DIY speakers is fugly, but apparently it sounds better than it looks. i think i'd opt for a ribbon or planar tweeter design though. if i were that ambitious, i' might even build a 3 way system with a large planar mid and 8 inch woofers. i think one goes down to 150Hz.

[budget minded]

it's http://www.zaphaudio.com/ i found the link in a different folder and it was the scan speak 2 way i was thinking of, but it doesn't use the ring radiator tweeters that might be one of the best "soft domes".

[budget minded]

the ZD5 minis... those are  the anat clones i thought i remembered after all.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZD5.html

the other was a full scan speak design with a soft dome where the ZD5 uses a ring radiator with a phase plug. those tweeters have serious HF extension. i picture them sounding very fast and sweeter than metal domes if not up to ribbon speed. i'd like those for a high end system, or a B&G planar based system for an even faster midrange, but i think me umble RC10s can keep up with high end GK gear once i have some. i forgot i was even listening to them now for a minute. i need some gear that disappears in front of them. my decade old japanese DACs & amp are the weakest links in my system.

it's a shame panasonic stopped making class D. i liked it better than onkyo and NAD on soft domes. it has a lot of speed and detail, but would agree with the "glassy" description attributed to 1st generation class D. it's very subtle, but it's a layer of electronic signature. old consumer grade DACs have to be a long way short of the best of even today's entry level units just as my receiver wasn't tweaked to make it's sound more organic like the TBI and especially hypex ncore amps that are virtually high efficiency SETs.

once i have sources like that, i'll feel more comfortable in the exact sound of my new reference minis but they were doing a great job on woodblocks with what i have now a few seconds ago. i see it more as my current sources aren't worthy of the 10s than those not being worthy of $700 DACs and $500 integrateds. they're perfectly up to illuminating subtle differences in gear. just switched to the sony DAC and am getting something closer to a tube sound, even at really low levels under the fan sound of my PC closer to me.

[Quiet Earth]

What do you have for breakfast budget minded? I'd like to get me a carton.    (Just kidding of course, I admire your enthusiasm. Welcome aboard. )

Sometimes we study things so much that we paint ourselves into a corner. Sometimes we know what can't be good, so we overlook a possible solution. Every once in a while I like to go into a store (or an audio show) as though I don't know how any of this stuff works and just listen. Quite often I will discover a component or an entire system that defies my rules of order, and it will make me go  .  It's fun when that happens.

Back to the original question. I would upgrade my source component first. It would have to be a real upgrade though, not just a change. That may require you to save up a little longer, I don't know. You want to make it something that is worth keeping for the long run, and something that will improve when you upgrade your amp. I'm not going to recommend a specific component for you, but I will recommend that you keep your mind open to the possibility that the source component could be where you spend the majority of your budget. It is so often overlooked in the majority of discussions.

Good luck. 

[budget minded]

that was my thinking too actually... start the entire process with the best source practically affordable, and in the case of the schiit gungnir, one that suits my "speed and detail" preferences more than the more musical tubed gear. i'd like to think i have a very clear idea of what i do and don't like in sound. i used to be biased against metal domes because they were especially bad in the early 90s when they first came out, but nowadays the best ones, B&W in particular, are really nice sounding.

as to switching to ported speakers...

[budget minded]

NEVER! LOL i'll fight everyone in the room if i have to. i wasn't wowed by stereo gear, even expensive stuff, until i heard a little pair of infinities complete with styrofoam tweeters even! THAT was what bass should sound like, not big and bloated, but fast and undistorted. i can live with less of it as long as it stays tight. my idea of the "ultimate subwoofer" is probably a bunch of 4 1/2" woofers in a sealed box, or magnepans.

$700 is a lot to invest in a DAC, but i want to get something i won't feel i need to upgrade from as soon as i get it. top down makes the most sense. mp3s are never going to sound great no matter how ambitious or expensive the system is. i can't see myself spending much more than that, and i'd be a lot happier spending just $500, but sound that rivals much more expensive gear from the same era as my consumer grade stuff is a reasonable value, and value is my name. when those little $100 infinitys sounded better to my ears that larger and much more expensive gear, i came to the conclusion you don't always get what you pay for, and i can remember even B&W 801s from the 90s that had to have cost at least $10,000 not impressing me as much as infinity at 1% of the price, especially with their former metallic glare since remedied nicely.

i'm still saving up and about to make my most ambitious audio purchases ever. maybe i might not even feel the need to upgrade amplification if a DAC plus room tuning can smooth things out.

[roscoeiii]

The Gungnir DAC is very good, if you have decided to go with a new source.

BUT, if you are going source, I'd recommend a DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0. Check out Robert Greene's The Absolute Sound review. It has also been reviewed in Stereophile and elsewhere. I directly compared the Dual Core 2.0 to the Gungnir and put the Gungnir up for sale. An excellent DAC before you turn on the DSP. And when you turn on the DSP, wow! A very very versatile device. DSP is below 500Hz, and there is digital EQ all the way up and down the spectrum. Get an even flatter frequency response from your speaker (or place emphasis where you like it best). I could go on...

Something worth auditioning. If you can't get hold of one for audition locally, try Tweak Geek, they have an audition and return options that are excellent. A great seller thru and thru.

[Letitroll98]

At $1200 ea. way over C&C guidelines, interesting product nevertheless.  Just not for this circle.  Even the $700 Gungnir DAC is pushing things to the limit.  Based on the OP's system it fits, but just barely.

[wushuliu]

yes, BOTH units have great sound quality. deciding which to get first though is the problem.

i was thinking of getting the bifrost DAC too for a minute as i was liking the sound of it's "detailed and neutral" sound character more than the lush sound of yulong D18s and eastern electric mini-maxes. then after seeing that the gungnir is even more resolving and liquid with extra bass slam, it seemed worthwhile to stretch my budget back to the $700 range for "the last DAC i'll ever need". i like cheap gear, but not if i have to keep upgrading and would rather get it right the first time so to speak.

either upgrade would greatly improve my system i'm sure, i'm just trying to figure out which link is weaker in my system, my receiver, or tired old consumer grade DACs. my energy RC10s really tell it like it is about the gear upstream. now i can hear both the digital sound of my DACs and the clinical sound of my receiver.

The RC10s appear to be very well-designed, of the Canadian NRC-based 'flat response' school. Very benign impedance for the most part which may be one reason why they are so dynamic, so good choice. Given your taste I'd lean towards an Audio-GD DAC w/ the Sabre ES9018 like the compass or the NFB 1.32. I like the AKM chips the Gungnir uses but the ESS Sabres really pull out nth level of detail to my ears.

http://audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/Compass%202/Compass2EN.htm

http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB1.32/NFB1.32EN.htm

But then you went and mentioned DIY speakers. If that is an option, then THAT would be first and foremost.

EDIT: Just saw your current amp. Ouch. I remember the Panasonic 55's, they are clean but too analytical. Drove me nuts after a while. Frankly I'd replace that first. Even a $50 TK2050 may be better than that.

[roscoeiii]

At $1200 ea. way over C&C guidelines, interesting product nevertheless.  Just not for this circle.  Even the $700 Gungnir DAC is pushing things to the limit.  Based on the OP's system it fits, but just barely.

Oh, yes forgot we were in the C&C circle. Just thought I'd mention why I'd moved on from the excellent Gungnir, and to what.

[Quiet Earth]

I forgot we were in the cheerful section too. The blog touches on state of the art, and addresses the very best of sound.

......way over C&C guidelines

The expectations seem a little higher in this case, so the rules were bent to meet the need.