Maximizing Ethernet SQ (Roon and/or MPD)

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zoom25

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Re: Maximizing Ethernet SQ (Roon and/or MPD)
« Reply #20 on: 3 Dec 2017, 10:59 pm »
The computer is constantly making noise. I had an internal PCIe EMU 1212M Pro-Audio card. I took the balanced cable (TRS <> XLR) and on the XLR (input to the amp) I floated the shield drain conductor.

You could hear mouse movement, button click, keyboard, HDD access (SSD you could still hear but lower in volume and shorter in duration), paging operations. Soon as I soldered up the drain wire: Pristine audio.

It's the DAC's job to reject all of this. If what is going on in your computer is affecting your DAC you most likely have a defective DAC, or less likely defective cabling or computer.

I've never encountered these problems with my DAC. Although, it does benefit being fed from better sources. Most DACs, including Bryston's own BDA benefits from the BDP. Does that make the BDA defective?

jinjuku

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Re: Maximizing Ethernet SQ (Roon and/or MPD)
« Reply #21 on: 3 Dec 2017, 11:24 pm »
I've never encountered these problems with my DAC. Although, it does benefit being fed from better sources. Most DACs, including Bryston's own BDA benefits from the BDP. Does that make the BDA defective?

Remember I purposefully midwifed a cable to show this...

Then you have a DAC designed by a competent engineer. What's 'better sources'? I don't know if feeding a good component crap would make it a crap component. It's trivial to feed it cleanly.

My Emotiva DC-1 seems rather immune to what modern, decent computer, is feeding it. Right now that would be an Intel J3455 based machine with a medical grade 12V LRPS.  The Emotiva has it's own optimized LRPS and doesn't rely on bus power.



zoom25

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Re: Maximizing Ethernet SQ (Roon and/or MPD)
« Reply #22 on: 4 Dec 2017, 12:18 am »
Remember I purposefully midwifed a cable to show this...

Then you have a DAC designed by a competent engineer. What's 'better sources'? I don't know if feeding a good component crap would make it a crap component. It's trivial to feed it cleanly.

My Emotiva DC-1 seems rather immune to what modern, decent computer, is feeding it. Right now that would be an Intel J3455 based machine with a medical grade 12V LRPS.  The Emotiva has it's own optimized LRPS and doesn't rely on bus power.

I use a Dangerous Music Source, which is engineered by Chris Muth, just like the rest of the Dangerous Music products that are made for mastering. The DAC is powered by a Teradak 12V13A LPS.

I also have an Emotiva DC-1. I did find that the USB connection from my Macbook Pro to DC-1 benefitted from an Audioquest Jitterbug. Same goes for Dangerous Source. I've never had problems with either as far as obvious noise or any problems.

However, I don't do my testing on the DC-1 as its relegated for my mid-fi TV rig with Mackie HR 824 Mk1's. Over the years, I've periodically tested the DC-1 against the Dangerous Source, but it never comes close. The Source is entirely on another level sound wise.

You are correct, I don't find much benefit or difference in feeding different sources to the DC-1, but then again it doesn't have that resolution in the first place.

https://cdn.head-fi.org/a/6222712.jpg

jinjuku

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Re: Maximizing Ethernet SQ (Roon and/or MPD)
« Reply #23 on: 4 Dec 2017, 12:37 am »
When I benched the DC-1 against a Bel Canto the DC-1 held it's own. The DC-1 is simply transparent and it's my preference. I wouldn't even begin to describe it as not a high resolving piece of gear.

Also A/B to some Wadia and both pieces were exemplar.

zoom25

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Re: Maximizing Ethernet SQ (Roon and/or MPD)
« Reply #24 on: 4 Dec 2017, 12:43 am »
When I benched the DC-1 against a Bel Canto the DC-1 held it's own. The DC-1 is simply transparent and it's my preference. I wouldn't even begin to describe it as not a high resolving piece of gear.

Also A/B to some Wadia and both pieces were exemplar.

Enjoy the DC-1. :thumb:

jinjuku

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Re: Maximizing Ethernet SQ (Roon and/or MPD)
« Reply #25 on: 4 Dec 2017, 01:01 am »
Enjoy the DC-1. :thumb:

I do. I'll try the Dangerous as I think I have a friend that has one in his mastering rig.

Here's the koolthang with USB devices: You can get stereomix installed in Windows and drive multiple USB sound devices at the same time so instant A/B using the same audio stream is quite possible.

I don't doubt the Dangerous Source is a good piece but I've simply yet to find anything that walks away from what the DC-1 is capable of.

zoom25

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Re: Maximizing Ethernet SQ (Roon and/or MPD)
« Reply #26 on: 4 Dec 2017, 01:35 am »
I do. I'll try the Dangerous as I think I have a friend that has one in his mastering rig.

Here's the koolthang with USB devices: You can get stereomix installed in Windows and drive multiple USB sound devices at the same time so instant A/B using the same audio stream is quite possible.

I don't doubt the Dangerous Source is a good piece but I've simply yet to find anything that walks away from what the DC-1 is capable of.

I've done similar syncing on Roon. You can listen to the same DAC with either a direct USB connection or from a network device and have it in sync for A/B toggling with a touch of a button. Additionally, with the BDP-1, I can feed AES to one DAC and the coax/BNC to another. Lots of ways to do comparisons depending on the purpose.

The Dangerous Source requires a 12V 2A power supply. I've used it with a stock switching wall wart and found the oversized 13A power supply better. A couple of people that now have the Teradak 12V13A previously had other linear power supply from Keces (DC-116) and Teddy Pardo and found that particular Teradak better. I leave all my gear on 24/7 plugged into the Torus which makes a pleasant difference.

Similarly, Michal of Mytek also shares the same feeling on having an oversized power supply. The Brooklyn has a built in power supply as well as the option for it to be powered with an external power supply.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12115436-post53.html

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12115439-post54.html

jinjuku

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Re: Maximizing Ethernet SQ (Roon and/or MPD)
« Reply #27 on: 4 Dec 2017, 02:31 am »
Given the meager power requirements driving the DS with a regulated battery supply seems easy.

zoom25

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Re: Maximizing Ethernet SQ (Roon and/or MPD)
« Reply #28 on: 9 Jan 2018, 08:48 pm »
UPDATE:

In the last week, I made some changes to make things easier for better testing environment. I moved all the network gear and their power supplies at least 10 feet away from the audio rack to keep EMI out of the picture. From there I only ran one single ethernet cable that would plug into the BDP-1. This is the only ethernet cable that was in the vicinity of the audio rack. All power cables are shielded 14 AWG going into the Torus. The other cable in that area is the Grimm TPR for both analog and digital (AES) use. 3 feet of TPR in each cable.

The final switch is powered by Teradak LPS. The switch is DGS-1005 which is unshielded, so there cannot be ground loops regardless. Remember, BDP-1's ethernet port is shielded.

I tried 3 ethernet cables of the same length:

1) Cat 6 UTP

2) Cat 6a SSTP (grounds lifted on both side)

3) Cat 6a SSTP (ground connected to BDP-1)


________

The UTP had some grain to the sound with a slightly warm sound and felt the loudest. On the same track, I was comfortable at 9o clock.

With the #2 option of floating ground on both side, I think it was slightly quieter than the UTP. So, each time I felt I had to turn the volume up to 9:30 ish on the pot. It was a tiny bit more neutral sounding, a bit less grain, but still nothing that would be appreciable to most.

With the #3 option of ground connected on one side, the sound was distinctly different. Grain/hash in vocals was completely gone. In fact, it almost felt too smooth at first. I also had to turn the volume up on both the headphone amp (Audeze LCD-2C) and the speakers to 11:00. The soundstage became more fluid on the Audeze in particular.

I absolutely had to turn the volume up quite a bit to get the music going. However, as I continued to turn the volume up I never noticed any stress. I had to do a double take on the volume level. I'm never at these volume ranges with that music.

__________

How big is the difference?

Between #1 and #2, I think some listeners might be able to pick up some differences, but I doubt anything would come out in a blind test. However, if you put up #1, or even #2 against #3, I think a lot of listeners here would be able to pass a blind test. It's THAT noticeable. That smoothness in the vocals will be a dead giveaway each time!

__________

I remember reading that you should not have the switch near the audio rack as the cable leading up to it will still be producing noise. It's best to keep all the network gear and power supplies far away from the gear and only have the one cable going into the audio rack.

__________


Siemons:

https://www.siemon.com/us/standards/Screened_and_Shielded_Guide_9_Why_Use_Fully_Shielded_Cabling.asp

https://www.siemon.com/us/standards/Screened_and_Shielded_Guide_7_Antenna_Myth.asp

The fact is that both screens and shields and the copper balanced twisted-pairs in a UTP cable will behave as an antenna to some degree. The difference is that, as demonstrated by the simplified loop antenna model, the noise that couples onto the screen or shield is actually 100 to 1,000 times smaller in magnitude than the noise that is coupled onto an unshielded twisted-pair in the same environment.

As shown in figure 7, the coupling between two UTP cables (shown in black) is a minimum of 40 dB worse than the interaction between two properly grounded F/UTP cables (shown in blue). It should be noted that 40 dB of margin corresponds to 100 times less voltage coupling, thus confirming the modeled predictions. Clearly, the UTP cable is radiating and receiving (i.e. behaving like an antenna) substantially more than the F/UTP cable!

______________

Very happy with the BDP-1 this way. Right now, it truly sounds and justifies its price. It has to be heard this way.

This is how I'd recommend reviewers to hear the BDP's at their best. I've done the simple and isolated flash drive connection with MPD and it doesn't compare.

I think I might be done with copper ethernet tweaking. Simple rules, some inexpensive upgrades to cables and power supplies and a lot of space between them.  :thumb:

zoom25

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Re: Maximizing Ethernet SQ (Roon and/or MPD)
« Reply #29 on: 10 Jan 2018, 08:20 pm »
The noise floor has definitely gone down. Whether, it's less crap going in or less crap going out or both, I am not sure. Low level resolution in particular.

2 instances in the last 24 hours where I heard or noticed something in tracks that I've heard at least 50 or more times. One of them was during a skit portion of a hip hop song where I actually made out the instrument being plucked in the background on a TV that was playing. I had to stop and go back and verify as I had never heard that detail before.

The other case was on a A.R. Rahman track where I had never heard the very faint noise floor during the start of the track and some intermodulation distortion during the silent parts of the track.

Preferences aside, if I'm noticing things that I haven't noticed before, then there must be something going right. The A.R. Rahman stuff reminds me very much of how things sounded back when I used to listen on tape. Very smooth and grain free. You could easily fool a vinyl enthusiast with this.