AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Peter J on 16 Aug 2010, 03:34 am
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I've got an idea for a servo sub cabinet that would have sides, top and bottom overhanging mounting driver mounting baffle by 1/2" to maybe as much as 1 1/4".
I know (or think I know) defraction on cabinet edge is a consideration with higher frenquencies, but does this hold true for the frequencies the sub would be producing?
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The sub will never play up high enough for that to be an issue.
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Danny, since I've got your ear, a couple more questions.
The drawing on your site doesn't show the amp cutout in rear. Since I'm designing from scratch, what's the best way to do this?
1. cut hole and just let electronics hang into open cabinet
2. Box in area around amp and isolate area from cabinet
3. Separate remote amp enclosure
Also, assuming options 1 or 2, should I be adjusting box volume to compensate for space amp takes up?
Any other considerations before I start committing ideas to paper? Baltic birch? Coat the interior with molasses? Bring in a witch doctor?
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That's the cool thing about a kit. You can do either of those things.
Do a version of the sand box if you can. If not, then use MDF for the outside walls and lots of braces. Then line with No Rez. The Birch makes great braces too.
Or do a sandwich material of each.
No witch doctor needed. :wink:
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Here's a concept of what I have in mind, thought I'd toss it out for comment. All is variable at this point, so no suggestion is out of bounds.
I'm toying with the idea of building the sides in a stacked lamination of Baltic Birch, I kinda like the look of all those layers. It can be dyed most any color and toned with tinted lacquer.
Top and bottom will probably be veneered, with edges done in vertical grain, but nothing sure at this point.
Rather than have the grill cover the whole inset front, I drew this with a round grill that just covers the driver...shows more of the cabinet face which will match sides...or not...could be something altogether different.
That being said, I'm fishing for ideas and comments, so fire away if you've got something on your mind. Anything can be changed at this stage of the game...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=34098)
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Peter- Since you asked for ideas, etc.. I have found-and many others have also- that raising the sub up off the floor even as little as 8 inches in my case really improves the sound. The boomyness in my case was eliminated just by raising my basic POLK 10" sub up onto some boxes temporarily. I believe there is a formula something to the effect of raising the sub 22% of the ceiling height. Mine is only 8ish inches but it makes a world of difference. Maybe just build the cabinet a bit taller if you can...FWIW :thumb: :thumb:
Ed L.
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Peter- Since you asked for ideas, etc.. I have found-and many others have also- that raising the sub up off the floor even as little as 8 inches in my case really improves the sound. The boomyness in my case was eliminated just by raising my basic POLK 10" sub up onto some boxes temporarily. I believe there is a formula something to the effect of raising the sub 22% of the ceiling height. Mine is only 8ish inches but it makes a world of difference. Maybe just build the cabinet a bit taller if you can...FWIW :thumb: :thumb:
Ed L.
Thanks Ed, there's somthing I've never encountered before. I've raised stereo speakers, but never thought to do it with a sub. How would you describe the change it made?
I should mention that this is 95% TV/movie system, not really a critical listening environment.
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The bass just got more integrated and tighter, it honestly was like getting a new sub. I use my system for Music and Movies and that little tweak-mine still resides on some boxes-was a very substantial improvement. I moved the sub more out into the room first, its under my center channel speaker and that helped, but raising it up was really a very nice change for the better. It may not fit the decor and WAF but if you currently have a sub give it a try...my boxes are filled with books, something solid is preferred I understand...
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Here's a concept of what I have in mind, thought I'd toss it out for comment. All is variable at this point, so no suggestion is out of bounds.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=34098)
Hi Peter,
Very cool! 8)
Here's where I ended up with these.
(http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/9620/servo02.png) (http://img704.imageshack.us/i/servo02.png/)
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/129/servo04.png) (http://img339.imageshack.us/i/servo04.png/)
(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9521/servo03.png) (http://img143.imageshack.us/i/servo03.png/)
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Those are sweet!!!! :thumb: :thumb:
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Those are sweet!!!! :thumb: :thumb:
I'll say. Almost tempted to buy something like that and get top notch components to fill it
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Wow!!
Wish they were headed to Boston instead.
Nice job.
George
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Wow from me too! I am amazed at your work.
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That looks absolutely amazing. Very professional looking. :thumb:
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So what is the price on one of those bad boy subs?
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Fallen, your work is inspiring...really beautiful. If you don't mind me asking, are you finishing with automotive-type urethanes?
Hi Peter,
Very cool! 8)
Here's where I ended up with these.
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Thanks for all of the compliments everyone. :)
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So what is the price on one of those bad boy subs?
Hi Chip,
Fully built as shown with the A370 Servo amp, $1300 each.
Ruben
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Fallen, your work is inspiring...really beautiful. If you don't mind me asking, are you finishing with automotive-type urethanes?
Thanks Peter.
Sorry for hijacking your thread. :oops:
Yes, these were finished in a 2 stage urethane.
Ruben
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Danny, I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on the parts, but wanted to run a few questions by you, if I may.
This is primarily a TV / video system consisting mostly of older gear accumulated when I was completely consumed by the audio-video bug...thankfully I don't obsess quite like I used to and don't have the budget for it anyway.
It consists of Gershman Acoustics RX-20 for mains, Gershman CC-X center, and Gershman Cameleons as rears and an old Velodyne F-10 servo sub. Processor is a Theta Casa Nova. The Theta has many ways to control the LFE, so my thought was I don't need the versatility and control of of the 370PEQ... that the 300 would suffice...am I off base here? That's question #1
Question #2 is about whether servo is overkill for intended use. I could spend the dough on the non-servo and maybe build two for similar money. Now there's these buyout MFW 15s in the mix, so I could hold off till you can 'speriment some and come up with a good design for them. Your thoughts?
You'll get my dollars either way, but I want to get best bang for buck. My joy is the building of the enclosures, much more fun for me that the system engineering.
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Go for the servo sub! :thumb:
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I went with single servo and A300 amp, although I'm building two boxes in case I want to add a second sub later. Might even build build four and see if I can peddle two to defray cost.
I'm designing modified sand box and got to wondering... well, you know how that can be!
Is there a reason for sandfilling only the sides on the plans shown on GR site? If I could surround the whole core box structure with sand including front and rear panel and keep the structure solid, any reason I shouldn't?
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Decided to build a version of the sandbox and have been teaching myself more and more Sketchup while drawing it. Here's (I hope) a link to an animation of how I'll build it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45559224@N03/5054967199/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/45559224@N03/5054967199/)
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Creativity knows no rest. Glad you are thinking about the sand box cabinet. If Danny approves, hope you build a prototype and let us know how it sounds.
BTW, do you use standard MDF? Have you tried other alternative like:
http://www.sierrapine.com/index.php?pid=68
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Creativity knows no rest. Glad you are thinking about the sand box cabinet. If Danny approves, hope you build a prototype and let us know how it sounds.
BTW, do you use standard MDF? Have you tried other alternative like:
http://www.sierrapine.com/index.php?pid=68
Prototype, what's a prototype? :wink:
I'll actually build a couple and finish them, perhaps more. My only concern is the weight. This is the second design I've done, more vertical than original...darn things get kinda bulky with all those layers and the look I want.
One thing I'll change from Danny's design...the sand will be silica sand, much finer so density will be greater. Planned thickness of sand layer is 1/4". I'm also using ball transfer casters so I don't bust a gut moving them around.
In the past, I've used standard MDF, but saw Medex mentioned elsewhere so called supplier to check availability. They don't stock, but can have in a week. I'll give it a try when I start these.
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For any of you following this, I've had some time to work on these lately. Here's some pics of progress.
Parts cut and machined, ready to start assembly:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37758)
Boxes built:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37759)
Buildout skeleton for sand space mostly done:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37760)
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That looks awesome!
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Looking good.
Love your mobile small-tools-cart. What's the rounded sawhorse for?
Carlos
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Looking good.
Love your mobile small-tools-cart. What's the rounded sawhorse for?
Carlos
Carlos, should look pretty cool when done. Your speakers are beautiful... I followed your build thread with interest
Cart was a fun thing to build, and useful.
Rounded horse is for bucking sheet goods onto tablesaw. If I tilt one end of a sheet onto the horse, I can pivot it to table height and rotate without busting a gut. MDF is a killer weight wise, and I'm not getting any younger!
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A bit more progress, got the "skin" on one of 'em. Cabinet pretty dead even before sand and outermost shell.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37842)
Carlos, this is for you since you commented on it.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37843)
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They're coming along great Peter. Well done!
Are you settled on a paint color/veneer species yet?
Got any pics of the first design you built?
Thanks,
Ruben
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Are you settled on a paint color/veneer species yet?
Got any pics of the first design you built?
Ruben, the first design never got built, I just wasn't satisfied with the way it looked on paper. It's very similar to the concept drawing earlier in this thread. Using a square "core" box just made it too squatty looking to my eye. Your design inspired me to redo.
Since my mains and surrounds
are painted, I've decided to forego veneer and paint these as well. I'm leaning toward black top and bottom and a bronzey root beer metallic on sides.
Original design:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37855)
New and improved:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37856)
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More progress on these for the photo junkies
Filled first one as a kind of shakedown............hey a pun! Ready to do the remaining three.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38103)
Here's one full ready to install front. Loading the sand proved to be harder than anticipated....well, actually getting all the sand off the skeleton while maintaining full sand compartments for glue-up is a lesson in tedium.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38105)
Makeshift shaker table worked OK, but tore itself apart.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38106)
Out of curiosity, I weighed before and after sand filling, looks like each one gained about 7 1/2 lbs.
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Hey Peter,
Lookin' good! :thumb:
Anything new to share?
Ruben
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Ahhh Ruben, they sit in the shop waiting for me to get unbusy with paying work. I'm not bitching, though, last year at this time I was idle and not a thing on the horizon...not much fun :|
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Some progress while I'm taking some time off during holidays.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40662)
Sides glued up and trimmed
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40664)
Ply inside panel installed for ridgidity and better attachment screw bite
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40673)
Vertical edges shaped
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40674)
And a quick mock-up (sides not attached) just to give me some inspiration to finish :roll:
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Man those are killer. STOUT!!! :icon_twisted:
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A little more progress, 'cuz I know y'all like pictures 8)
These things are going to weigh something close to 160 lbs when done, so they're getting ball transfer casters to make moving a little easier.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40995)
Close up of caster mounting
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40996)
Grill frames machined and attaching neo magnets installed. Assembly is mocked up before take apart to prep for painting.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40997)
Close-up of grill intersecting side. I needed to use a thick grill frame and sink driver into cabinet to accomodate max excursion. Didn't want to make sides, top and bottom any deeper I tapered grill with same radius that's on the sides.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40998)
Here's closeup of grill edge showing taper and back rabbet for grill cloth. Rabbeting for cloth avoids inevitable corner bunching of fabric that keeps grill from sitting flat on cabinet.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40999)
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Peter
Did you take the time to write up plans for this design? I'm about to pull the trigger and buy a direct servo, and absolutely love your design. Love the leatherette and would like to mimick your awesome design. Also, any suggestions on where to get the silica sand? I know lowes and home depot carry the stuff, but not sure if its the right sand for the job.
Top notch work man!
Patrick
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Peter
Did you take the time to write up plans for this design? I'm about to pull the trigger and buy a direct servo, and absolutely love your design. Love the leatherette and would like to mimick your awesome design. Also, any suggestions on where to get the silica sand? I know lowes and home depot carry the stuff, but not sure if its the right sand for the job.
Thanks Patrick, I drew the models you see in SketchUp... not really any formal writeup other than what's in this thread. The leatherette on Ruben's design is mighty handsome.
In time, I'll complete these, it's a spare time project and I vacillate on how to finish, my latest brainstorm is copper leaf on sides, but time will tell :dunno:
I used #70 white silica sand, bought at lumberyard, often used as a sandblasting medium. Much finer than play or masonry sand, and no worries about moisture content.
Good luck with your project, post your progress and pics...we likes pics :wink:
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Peter, can you tell me a little about your painting process? Are you spraying or brushing? I'm assuming you are using Urethane.
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Peter, can you tell me a little about your painting process? Are you spraying or brushing? I'm assuming you are using Urethane.
Patrick, I'd always spray unless I was going for some effect with brush, and yes, two stage urethanes would be my weapon of choice.
On MDF, urethane high build primer, then sand 220. Fill and sand, probably one more coat of primer, sand to 320 or 380. Spray color, then two coats of clear. Wet sand 600 or 800, two more clear, wet sand to 1200 or 1500. Power compound and polish.
I don't have a paint booth so the last cut and buff is necessary to get piano finish. Ruben gets some killer finishes, and has what appears to be a really nice booth.
FWIW, Wood cabinets with lacquer are easier to get looking good, the glossy paint finishes are tougher.
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Peter J,
In my former life I painted cars for a living, even with a good booth you can still get dust nibs that need to be sanded away and buffed. Meguiars makes some hard abrasive blocks in different grits that is great for really getting those dust nibs completely flat. A word of caution with them is to use a finer grit than you think you need, my recommendation would be the 2000 grit block. http://www.meguiarsdirect.com/detail/MEG+SAND+1000 (http://www.meguiarsdirect.com/detail/MEG+SAND+1000)
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Peter J,
In my former life I painted cars for a living, even with a good booth you can still get dust nibs that need to be sanded away and buffed. Meguiars makes some hard abrasive blocks in different grits that is great for really getting those dust nibs completely flat. A word of caution with them is to use a finer grit than you think you need, my recommendation would be the 2000 grit block. http://www.meguiarsdirect.com/detail/MEG+SAND+1000 (http://www.meguiarsdirect.com/detail/MEG+SAND+1000)
Thanks for the rec SL, I'll remember that. I've used a kind of hard rubber block with loose paper in the past. I don't work in the auto paint world and there's a bewildering array of products available. Fortunately, the folks at at the paint supply houses are willing to guide me, but when it gets outside of painting cars specifically, (like MDF), I've had to wing it at times.
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They look great Peter!
Ruben
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Just so y'all don't think I fell off the earth with this project...
Shot some primer today,
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=44223)
Sorry for picture quality, didn't have my camera so used phone.
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I've been experimenting with some unusual finishing techniques. Some were visual duds, some complete failures but I think I've landed on one that I really like for the side panels.
This is a chemical patina on copper gilding. The clear coat is a quickie shot of urethane just to get a feel for what it will look like, so disregard the orange peel.
What do y'all think?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=45611)
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Very organic looking, like some kind of slate or stone.
Steve
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Very organic looking, like some kind of slate or stone.
Steve
Interesting you should say that, I said something similar to my wife. Even though that wasn't my specific goal, when I finished the sample, it just clicked with me. What the picture doesn't show is an almost irridescent quality...I'm pretty stoked about it.
I'm actually thinking of finishing our front door like this!
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Hi Peter,
Nice work! :thumb: Very "earthy"...
That should blend well with many different wood tones.
Have you decided on how you're going to finish the rest of the sub?
I've been itching to use a new metallic finish myself. I'm considering using this "Geode", or "Ice" patterned aluminum when I redue my N3's. Much to my surprise, the wife actually prefers the ice pattern! :o
Ruben
The actual height of these pieces is about 43".
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z387/Outofthewoods/Patina.jpg)
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z387/Outofthewoods/Ice1.jpg)
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Have you decided on how you're going to finish the rest of the sub?
I've been itching to use a new metallic finish myself. I'm considering using this "Geode", or "Ice" patterned aluminum when I redue my N3's. Much to my surprise, the wife actually prefers the ice pattern! :o
Ruben
Piano black top and bottom, Ruben.
Those are cool looking...laminates?
Sounds like we run on the same track. A fountain of ideas and things we'd like to learn or try, just need time, money and things to use as test beds! Now that I write that, it kinda describes many of those who hang out here.
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Piano black top and bottom, Ruben.
That'll look great. :eyebrows:
Those are cool looking...laminates?
.025" Solid Aluminum
Sounds like we run on the same track. A fountain of ideas and things we'd like to learn or try, just need time, money and things to use as test beds!
Time is my biggest hurdle at the moment. :whip:
Here are some other possible contenders.
Ruben
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z387/Outofthewoods/Cobble01.jpg)
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z387/Outofthewoods/Cobble02.jpg)
4' x 8'
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z387/Outofthewoods/Alum1.jpg)
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Getting back to this...been a while. Should be on the home stretch now.
Painted and cleared sides today. Gilded copper on the left, Porsche I-don't-remember-the-name gold on right, (looks more copper than gold). Tops, bottoms and sandboxes in black tommorrow.
Woo-hoo!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=47602)
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Peter J, Woo-hoo is an understatement...the tops/bottoms look AWESOME! :drool:
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Absolutely gorgeous! Those will be beautiful - definitely something to highlight the room.
(insert envious emoticon here :green:)
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Wow that is cool :thumb:
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That both is worth more than my car.. ha... cool.... :P
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That both is worth more than my car.. ha... cool.... :P
Mine too! If I remember right, Chris told me he paid about $35K in 2003. It's his baby and I'm grateful to be able to rent it...nicest booth I've worked in...nice guy too.
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Man, I am thinking that a pair of Super-V's painted up like that would look awesome.
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Man, I am thinking that a pair of Super-V's painted up like that would look awesome.
Maybe someday, Danny. :D Been tumbling ideas in my head about building some since you introduced them, but haven't landed on a vision that's made it beyond the thinking stage...I'm sometimes a slow ponderer! And builder too, I guess, working on these subs since last fall...hmmm...
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Jon cracks me up,
Here on the left coast that paint booth would cost more to permit (if you could get a permit) and build than a house in most states. :o
I understand May 2011 was the last month for commercial oil based spray on paints in California. :cry:
Those are going to be the coolest subs on the circle for sure! :green:
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True True, the CAQD would be fining him all day.
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Well folks it's been while, but I actually just got one of these done. Been a long road. As soon as I get some help to boost it off the bench, I'll get it into the house and take it for a test drive. Here's some pics. I have to say, the black is really hard to photograph...or maybe it's me :|
Cutting and buffing
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50062)
Installing grill cloth
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50063)
Grill completed
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50064)
Amp in, wires run, No Rez installed
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50065)
Driver installed
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50066)
Completed front
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50067)
And rear
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50068)
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Wow, that is the most gorgeous looking sub I have ever seen. Absolutely beautiful! :thumb: :thumb:
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HOLY CRAP! I agree with Danny, that is truly amazing. If you decide to make another one of those and sell it, please let me know as I would love it to go with my Baltic Birch N2xs...
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HOLY CRAP! I agree with Danny, that is truly amazing. If you decide to make another one of those and sell it, please let me know as I would love it to go with my Baltic Birch N2xs...
Funny you should ask. Earlier in the thread, I mentioned that I was building four of these with an eye towards selling some. I have two in primer which could be any color, and a gold and black one (sides pictured earlier) to color sand, buff and assemble.
The copper gilding with patina pictured here I'll probably keep, but could replicate if someone was interested...it's very time consuming I found out. Probably best to PM me if you'd like to talk further.
And thanks for the compliments, sometimes OCD can be a good thing :o
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Beautiful finish and build, thanks for the pics.
Neil
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Wow, that is the most gorgeous looking sub I have ever seen. Absolutely beautiful! :thumb: :thumb:
:cry: I thought mine was. :cry: :cry: :cry:
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:cry: I thought mine was. :cry: :cry: :cry:
Your solid aluminum paneled sub was engineering excellence. His is just flat out gorgeous!
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I can't believe some of the DIY builds I see on AudioCircle. That looks absolutely beautiful and very professional. If I didn't know it I'd have thought it came off a high-end assembly line. Bravo on an amazing build!
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Number two assembled today. Piano black and Porsche Nordic Gold. The gold has a very cool luminous quality in the late afternoon sun...really pops!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50281)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50282)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50283)
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So cool, I am finished, can not compete (not the best choice of words) just an explanation of how great they are........ with this, envy......I need four..in clear please....
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So cool, I am finished, can not compete with this, envy......I need four..
Hmmm, we were competing?
What colors would you like those four, j? :)
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:notworthy: :notworthy:
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Sick!
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Buy yours here...
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98186.msg986271#msg986271
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Awesome, this is like buying art! :thumb:
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For any of you following this, I've had some time to work on these lately. Here's some pics of progress.
Parts cut and machined, ready to start assembly:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37758)
Boxes built:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37759)
Buildout skeleton for sand space mostly done:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37760)
Peter---Could you tell me how thick and wide the spacers for the sand are, and what kind of wood they are made from?
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The "ribs" are 1/4" Baltic Birch plywood, thus a 1/4" sand layer. Spacing is around 2.5-3", I just evenly spaced strips between the ends.
FWIW, I still have two of these in primer if anyone's interested in raw boxes or completed subs.
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Peter, Is this what I think it is, a sit upon? Do you have plans, dimensions, bill of materials, etc?
Larry
(http://i.imgur.com/SahBY.jpg)
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Those subs are really beuatiful. If they sound just half as good as they look, they will still be worth it.
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Peter, Is this what I think it is, a sit upon? Do you have plans, dimensions, bill of materials, etc?
Larry
(http://i.imgur.com/SahBY.jpg)
Larry, ya got me. I don't think I know what a "sit upon" is. Clue me in...
These are sawhorses, I use a couple of them on outfeed and left side of my tablesaw for support. That particular one happens to be the first one I built and I use it to horse sheets onto the saw, either off a stack or leaning against the wall.
I may have a Sketchup model of later iterations, but I doubt it's what most would call complete. I would mostly use it for a jumping off spot, sort of completing the design as I go. If it interests you I'd be happy to send it your way.
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Larry, ya got me. I don't think I know what a "sit upon" is. Clue me in...
These are sawhorses, I use a couple of them on outfeed and left side of my tablesaw for support. That particular one happens to be the first one I built and I use it to horse sheets onto the saw, either off a stack or leaning against the wall.
I may have a Sketchup model of later iterations, but I doubt it's what most would call complete. I would mostly use it for a jumping off spot, sort of completing the design as I go. If it interests you I'd be happy to send it your way.
Peter,
:oops: :oops: :lol: :lol: I thought it was a stool :duh: It looks like it would be great to sit on (i.e. sit-upon), ya know when your working on something while half standing, half sitting on a stool with your feet on the floor, and your butt only half way onto a stool with the edge of the stool digging into the back of your legs :x. That's why I thought it was a curved top (half-arse) stool :lol:
Larry
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Round two!
I was motivated to get the remaining two done...differently.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123681)
Only took me what..., 4 years!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98186.new#new
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Peter,
What do those weigh in at?
Mike
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Well Mike, they're not light! It's all I can do to boost one around. They have ball casters for moving around once in a house though.
As I recall, I pegged the first ones at about 160 lbs. with amp and driver, so we subtract that I'm guessing, what, 20 lbs.? so they end up around 140.
I could weigh them if need be.
You want me to send 'em your way ? :eyebrows:
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They do look pretty darn cool Peter :thumb:
I've considered geting a few 8mm casters to have around for moving cabinets.... after moving the triple 12 H-frams, it's almost becoming a necessity.
jay
jay