AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 21 Feb 2020, 05:04 pm
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Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3SGjBL4Ffg&lc=z23vfz3xhrypitufmacdp430v0q45rw3yziqvm4r0bdw03c010c.1582296461507466
I'm not big of using sound clips to tell how a speaker or set of speakers really sound, because you are hearing it all back on a difference system. It is also compressed on Youtube.
However, Ron made some really interesting sound clips comparing the NX Studio Monitors, the NX-Otica, and the NX-Treme.
All use the same driver family and are voiced about the same. However, Ron's mics really picked up the differences between the sealed box NX-Studio and the large open baffle NX-Otica and NX-Treme. Full open baffle speakers clearly have a more open and transparent quality.
Another surprise was the differences that can be heard between the NX-Otica and NX-Treme models. They are basically the same speaker (almost), but in this case the NX-Otica uses the base level crossover that comes with the kit. The NX-Treme uses all of the available crossover upgrades that include Sonicaps in the high pass circuit of the mids, foil inductors, and the Miflex Copper by-pass caps on the tweeter circuit. And in the recording you can clearly hear the differences that those higher end crossover parts are making.
You can even hear some real differences in the sound stage size and spacial cues that are often lost in the recording made like this.
All in all, very interesting...
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Time for a full copper cap netowrk :thumb:
jay
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I only had a chance to listen to it via my phone and $30 earbuds, so far, and the Oticas & NX-Tremes had a slightly fuller midrange (and the open subs have some really Impressive bass too)
Im excited to listen again tonight via my DAC/Amp & proper headphones. Which made the RP600M upgrade differences clear as day. So I'm certain that ill better be able to pick apart the differences than i could last night!
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Very interesting, all 3 speakers clearly portrayed slightly different signatures. The NX Extreme had more weight and information, quite impressive! :thumb:
Would love to have heard the Super Mini thrown in for kicks to compare. (Ron)
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NX-Studio crossover graph
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205007&size=huge)
NX-Otica crossover graph
from the YouTube video
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205048&size=huge)
NX-Treme crossover graph
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205009&size=huge)
Clearly NX-Treme has the better crossover graph. By the way, getting those graphics with open baffle should not be easy. Adding more identical woofer drivers will make it easier to get it, I say.
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Would love to have heard the Super Mini thrown in for kicks to compare. (Ron)
It was left out of the tests because it's not a currently available product.
Tho that might change when the new Neo 10s are finished with quality testing and ready for production. Same with the Line Force, but we'll just have to wait and see when the time comes.
(Cuz i definitely want to hear samples of those too)
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Matty, that NX-Otica curve that you fouund was from the first rendition using the custom serenity tweeter. It looks a little different now and crosses a little higher like the NX-Treme.
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Now that I've finally gotten the chance to listen to the comparison a few times over, (with an external DAC/Amp & HD650 Headphones) and listened to the same clips of originals of both Dire Straits and Toto (since I'm most familiar with them) I'm really amazed how close the recordings come to just listening to the studio recordings. Some of the finer details in the guitar are lost, but easily 92% of information is still there. Including spatial cues, depth and direction, which is honestly amazing. (Props to Ron on his equipment & setup)
The bass hits hard but is never boomy, tho maybe a little forward on the NX-Studios, even so the highs remain very clear, and the mids are articulate, and don't get muddied of lost in the bass.
With the Otica and X-Tremes, i feel the MTM arrangements help fill out the mids presence & brings them up to the same level as the bass. The guitar's attack is also more clean and pronounced, and vocals stand out. Id say they're about 95% of the original recording. With the last bit of lost detail being likely lost to YouTube's compression.
The only thing lost in the recording is the vertical depth gained by the larger Oticas and NX-Tremes.
Tho I imagine if I were there, in person, I would likely think differently, and have an even better understanding of what im missing from listening to a recording of speaker playback, and also thru mid-range DAC & headphone combo.
And while I definitely still want the NX-Studios for my personal space, use I'm definitely considering the NX-Oticas for future setups.
Definitely looking forward to seeing more from you and Ron going forward!
Thanks again for sharing! :thumb:
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I really would like to hear them posted just as clips no video uncompressed because I feel people got a misrepresentation of what Dannys work can do. Especially on the Klipsch Rp-600Ms. I know I had Vr3 mods do $800 crossovers on a set of Polk RTi-A9s. I only got him to do a one off set after hearing the difference in a set of Polk LSiM series. He took them to a recording studio and had them available uncompressed on his website.
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Matty, that NX-Otica curve that you fouund was from the first rendition using the custom serenity tweeter. It looks a little different now and crosses a little higher like the NX-Treme.
Image deleted. Is YouTube NX-Otica graph right?
Now from the YouTube video:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205048&size=huge)
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And while I definitely still want the NX-Studios for my personal space, use I'm definitely considering the NX-Oticas for future setups...
You can try to modify the dips at 350 Hz and 1.2 kHz with a minimum phase PEQ with high Q and < +/- 3 dB. When you are satisfied -> rePhase and then a convolution filter -> good soft player, as me with my modded KEF Q100.
-> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minimum-phase-vs-linear-phase.8762/post-253826
-> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minimum-phase-vs-linear-phase.8762/page-7#post-225351
What is a mistake is what most do, measure to equalize the entire band in frequency. And also with linear phase filters. You have to have good loudspeakers first! To listen to very good music recordings.
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I mean I could do those things, but I doubt I'd honestly even notice much difference, as they're already going to be far better quality than most any equipment I currently own. However, it is good to know i have the option to smooth out the dips in the future!
But my comment about the Oticas was about using them for a larger living room in the future, rather than the Studios, which will be used in a smaller bedroom/home-office setting. :P
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If you listen to excellent recordings with great dynamic range and with acoustic instrumentation and "natural" voices without autotune you will surely notice the difference.
If you limit yourself to modern commercial music, so badly produced and with low or very low dynamic range (DR) then it will be more difficult. DR < or << 10 dB.
This morning I have made an image copy of the windows partition again, the second one this week. I have finally got the sound I was looking for these years. Although listening is in the near field I have depth and separation of instruments. In short, 3D sound despite the limitations. Great soundstage thanks to the small KEF coaxials.
All thanks to the fact that days ago I accessed fantastic recordings that have helped me to fine tune the settings in Windows and media players much more.
Harmonie Du Soir Ensemble - Modern Time (2020) {24-96} [WAV]
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post6068847.html
*** https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/playclassics-album-premiere-for-asr-members.11224/post-322001
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/playclassics-trt-v2-0f-update-offer-for-asr-members.11337/post-324981
These classical music recordings must sound spectacular with Danny Richie open baffles!!!
HR, free and without ads!
http://www.playclassics.com/streaming
http://www.playclassics.com/comparisons
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I think you're reading far too much into what I'm saying, Maty, and I'm not really sure what your your point is by throwing all this information at me.
Right now, i just want to get to "good-enough" which for me means getting the best I can afford, and growing into something better down the line. And while that might not be where you're steering me, its not something im worried about yet.
Besides, it's wildly getting off topic..
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I think you're reading far too much into what I'm saying, Maty, and I'm not really sure what your your point is by throwing all this information at me.
Besides, it's wildly getting off topic..
That's his thing all over every audio forum. It's exhausting to go through and actually find useful info on threads.
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That optimizing can improve the sound a lot, as long as it begins from a good base, as the NX-Studio seem to be. In the far field everything gets complicated because the room interacts.
Therefore, slightly tweaking the NX-Studio frequency response will probably improve the sound. Without to spend more money!
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You do realize that's a 5 db scale? MOST graphs you see are 10db so this is actually much smoother response than most speakers out there. + / - 2db it looks to me.
You can EQ that if you want but it's kind of pointless IMO. And using EQ is not a free pass. I've noticed every time I've used EQ in the past (particularly digital EQ), the sound loses a fair bit of open-ness and vibrancy. If you MUST use EQ, then it's best to save it for the bass, where the need is usually much greater due to the room.
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The problem could be 1.2 kHz. Hence the filter must have large Q and very few / few decibels of gain, less than 3 dB, 1.5 dB - 2 dB the first attempt. A soft touch. The change in the phase is tried to minimize with rePhase at the end. The problem comes when the equalization is abused, which is usual. I am talking about music and not films.
With minimum phase PEQ, of course.
In a good coaxial, with excellent dispersion would be more optimal. Anyway, if the frequency response of the NX-Studio were different I would not have been interested in it! It is the first OB I know for a not very large room.
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Danny - is the sound difference between the otica and nx tremes in the clips more so the added 4 woofers or more because of the crossover upgrades? Obviously they both play a roll, but to what %?
How much more would you get out of the crossover with all copper caps and no sonic caps?
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Danny - is the sound difference between the otica and nx tremes in the clips more so the added 4 woofers or more because of the crossover upgrades? Obviously they both play a roll, but to what %?
How much more would you get out of the crossover with all copper caps and no sonic caps?
I've had both in my Super 7s. IMO, you get 90% of the sound of the all-copper caps by using a Miflex bypass on the Sonicaps. It's a very, very good sounding combo. Money is better spent elsewhere. Sonicaps plus Miflex are a big step up over the stock crossover (maybe 25% improvement in mid/highs).
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You can try to modify the dips at 350 Hz and 1.2 kHz with a minimum phase PEQ with high Q and < +/- 3 dB. When you are satisfied -> rePhase and then a convolution filter -> good soft player, as me with my modded KEF Q100.
-> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minimum-phase-vs-linear-phase.8762/post-253826
-> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minimum-phase-vs-linear-phase.8762/page-7#post-225351
What is a mistake is what most do, measure to equalize the entire band in frequency. And also with linear phase filters. You have to have good loudspeakers first! To listen to very good music recordings.
Matty, these things are already super smooth. Trying to EQ out ever little 1/2db wiggle is pointless.
There is no dip at 350Hz. What little one there is at 1.2kHz is not worth trying to fix. Besides it flattens out in the off axis.
You loose far more in digital manipulation and digital filters than a very slight amplitude blip will ever be.
Room reflections are going to be a far bigger issue than +/-1db ripples in the on axis.
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Danny - is the sound difference between the otica and nx tremes in the clips more so the added 4 woofers or more because of the crossover upgrades? Obviously they both play a roll, but to what %?
How much more would you get out of the crossover with all copper caps and no sonic caps?
The differences that you are hearing in the clips between those two models is all due to the higher end crossover parts.
And Tyson is right. You can get really close using Sonicaps and Miflex by-pass caps. But if money isn't an issue and you want the best of everything then those pure Copper Caps will certainly be the top dog.
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I assume that measurements are made at the listening point by the owners. And if you spend so much money on the loudspeakers and subwoofers the room is acoustic conditioned or it will be.
As for digital filters, the problem is in the linear ones, not in the minimum phase ones, since they are equivalent to the traditional analogs. If it is a modern recording, so manipulated and with synthesized instrumentation, autotune... the use of linear filters may be less noticeable. In the near field it is all much easier, although it has other disadvantages such as loss of depth.
As the phase also changes, the measurement at the listening point should be good enough before being handled lightly. At the end, rePhase -> convolution filter.
If the loudspeakers measure poorly and / or the room is not conditioned then better forget about trying to improve the sound (music, good or very good recordings) via equalization, we will only use it to spice it up to our liking. Unfortunately it is the usual practice, they want to solve the irresolvable by simply measuring and equalizing. At least they enjoy it.
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Measurements shown were made by me and were made using a gated time window. So there was no room interaction in the measurements.
And I really don't recommend any type of room EQ. Keep that stuff out of the signal path and treat the room as needed for best results.
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The differences that you are hearing in the clips between those two models is all due to the higher end crossover parts.
And Tyson is right. You can get really close using Sonicaps and Miflex by-pass caps. But if money isn't an issue and you want the best of everything then those pure Copper Caps will certainly be the top dog.
So, is the consensus that the Miflex works better as a bypass cap than the Sonicap Platinum (when paired with a Sonicap GenI Cap)?
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So, is the consensus that the Miflex works better as a bypass cap than the Sonicap Platinum (when paired with a Sonicap GenI Cap)?
I'm liking it better.
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So, is the consensus that the Miflex works better as a bypass cap than the Sonicap Platinum (when paired with a Sonicap GenI Cap)?
Yes. Back in the day the teflon caps were among the very best around, but time marches on and the Miflex are clearly better.
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I'm liking it better.
Danny, do you sell the Miflex in the .33 value (I don’t know how to get to the alternate keyboard with the little symbol :green:)? Approx cost?
And of course, then I would have to trust my soldering skills and equipment again. :oops:
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The fantastic sound (with limitations of near field and loudspeakers near to walls) I have achieved has been thanks to two factors.
1º The improvement of the first order filter tweeter filter, with Miflex KPCU-01 0.01 uF 600Vdc and Mills MRA resistor. [IMG, link] https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204399&size=huge
2º Have a reference recording in which I know how musicians are placed and with very good sound quality.
Without the above I would not have been able.
You already have a crossover with much better components than mine and you already have a quality bypass. For what it costs (Miflex bypass) I would try, although the improvement will not be as spectacular as in my case, I suppose.
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I am sure Ron must have made sound clips of the Minis as well as the Line Force. How about posting those so the Audiofools here could access that. 8)
Rocket Ronny
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Ron mentioned in an earlier video that they intentionally didn't record the Super Mini or LineForce speakers due to the lack of availability of the Neo10 drivers. Also, because they didn't want to create too much hype or interest around something that isn't currently available, and likely to change.
And chances are, that once the replacement model that Danny is working on is available, it will have some differences from the original drivers that a current recording won't be able to accout for..
But give it time, and im sure we'll get a video when they're ready. :)
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I've had both in my Super 7s. IMO, you get 90% of the sound of the all-copper caps by using a Miflex bypass on the Sonicaps. It's a very, very good sounding combo. Money is better spent elsewhere. Sonicaps plus Miflex are a big step up over the stock crossover (maybe 25% improvement in mid/highs).
I need to order some of those Milflex bypass caps!
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I spoke to a person who heard the Minis and Line Force and felt the Minis gave almost 98% of what the Line Force gives with most music. Perhaps he listened to more small scale songs, I don’t know. Also, that the Minis in some ways imaged better as well. Interesting. That’s why Ron needs to release those sound files. I am sure he recorded them even if only for himself to hear back at home. O.k. I just watched Ron's video where he states he did not record those speakers. 8)
Rocket Ronny
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I spoke to a person who heard the Minis and Line Force and felt the Minis gave 98% of what the Line Force gives with most music. Perhaps he listened to more small scale songs, I don’t know. Also, that the Minis in some ways imaged better as well. Interesting. That’s why Ron needs to release those sound files. I am sure he recorded them even if only for himself to hear back at home. 8)
Rocket Ronny
Room size will also come into play. In a small room, the Lineforce just won't fit. In a small room the Super Mini is absolutely the way to go. In a medium sized room, the Super 7. In a large room, the Lineforce.
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Yes, Sage advice.
Rocket Ronny