Larger Subwoofer and wood floors

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Tillerman

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Larger Subwoofer and wood floors
« on: 25 Dec 2021, 11:15 pm »
I am the original owner of a LSW (lowboy) wired for L/R stereo. For the past 20 years, I have had this cabinet sitting directly on the wood floor and the passive tuning was done in this position. I am reexploring my setup of the LSW, hence my question below.

My question - is there anything to be gained by decoupling the LSW cabinet with rubber type footers? I reread the instructions provided by Brian with the LSW and he seems to indicate direct to the floor positioning regardless of flooring type.

Wayner

Re: Larger Subwoofer and wood floors
« Reply #1 on: 25 Dec 2021, 11:26 pm »
I would think that using something like floor spikes would damage your wood floor (or almost any other floor except carpet). I could imagine some hefty rubber footers underneath, but that would prevent the sub from draining some of that energy (thinking that is a bad thing).

Experiment time!

Tillerman

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Re: Larger Subwoofer and wood floors
« Reply #2 on: 26 Dec 2021, 12:07 am »
Definitely not going to try a metal footer for the reason you mention.

If I try something, it would likely be a rubber type "coaster" isolator, probably about 1/4" thick. The slot under the cabinet would be affected slightly by increasing the volume. This in turn may affect the PR tuning.

Evoke

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    • EVOKE Planar Loudspeakers
Re: Larger Subwoofer and wood floors
« Reply #3 on: 26 Dec 2021, 12:53 pm »
Brian was a smart guy. For a designer life gets hard below 500 Hz. It's easy to correct reflections, but at a point frequencies move through walls and can interact with the dimensions of the room.


The first important consideration is coupling. Regardless of the floor, the speaker will perform best coupled to the floor. Using isolation methods are a completely different conversation and offer their own unique set of problems and requirements.


In a perfect word coupling is done and you're listening to music. Not true. Placement becomes critical. There are many options each of which affects bass extension, smoothness of response etc. Depending on the crossover point, say 150 or less, stereo placement is not as critical. Higher, the box would benefit in being between the left/right.


With a low crossover point, the the left of center, left, or corner loaded all deliver different results. Using a series of reference tracks and taking a week to a month to fine-tune usually work. Testing gear is great - but not the only solution.


Other factors we all deal with: Is the floor concrete with something over it? Are the walls single sheet drywall or some other material? What is the spacing of the framing? Is at 2 x 4s or 2 x 6s? Is there an airspace in the walls - regular or large? (Large may exist in basement remodels.) What about isolation? Same with the ceiling.


While few people can build an ideal room, .6 x 1 x 1.6 as a guide, consider volume. Is the sub too small or big for the room? Is the ceiling flat? What is the ceiling height? How many doors? Large openings to other rooms? Windows?


While all of this is overwhelming, great sound can be achieved in most any room with patience. Oh, while we are very committed to the music and would be fine with one chair in the room, we typically have to take into our partner or spouses concerns that can be diametrically opposed to our theoretic goal for nirvana.


I know I've gone on. I apologize for that. But in a perverse way it is half the fun. I think Brian wanted all to share in the adventure that was in his mind. He was a gift, icon, and good man. Today we continue to keep him alive every time we listen to one of his speakers. I think when you find yourself moved by the music, in a way that only music can, that he may just be setting next to us. Happy holidays.

Tillerman

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Re: Larger Subwoofer and wood floors
« Reply #4 on: 26 Dec 2021, 04:34 pm »
I should mention that I am happy with the sound and tuning I have achieved in my room with the LSW placed directly on the wood floor. Just pondering the option mentioned and if someone had knowledge or experience with an LSW on wood floors.

The LSW is placed between my 2 speakers and slightly ahead of them. As mentioned, it is wired in stereo with 2 stock passive crossovers that have a 100 Hz point. As my speakers are high efficiency Klipsch Chorus floor standers run full range, the LSW is fed from a second set of outputs from my preamp into a Behringer DSP1124P (used to help tune our room modes) then to a Samson S1000 amp.

The room is 16 x 17 x 8.5' with walls of plaster over wood lath, and a wood floor over a crawl space. House is a 100+ year old farm house.

GeorgeAb

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Re: Larger Subwoofer and wood floors
« Reply #5 on: 26 Dec 2021, 06:36 pm »
Sounds like you have it sounding good. Couple of thoughts. 

Room Equalization Wizard has a section called Room Simulator. You can model your room and move your subwoofer around virtually to minimize room modes at your listening position to determine optimal positioon. Appears you have it already dialed in from listening and moving and are happy. 

On coupling and decoupling. From Brian’s posts he appeared to be in the decouple camp of not using spikes and to just place on floor. I am in the decouple camp of removing cabinet vibrations from getting into floor. You can start by placing a thick carpet under the sub and see what you think. It will not provide much decoupling, but may give you an indication if you want to pursue decoupling. 

If you prefer decoupling you can buy systems and spend thousands for someone to properly engineer to decoupling such as http://www.townshendaudio.com/ or you can do it yourself.  SVS makes a decoupler for subs for $50.  https://www.svsound.com/products/soundpath-subwoofer-isolation-system  I am currently in the process of designed my own using Sorbothane. Sorbothane is an excellent product for mechanical isolation of vibration.  For it to work properly it needs to be under the proper load of 10 to 20% deflection. This is a function of the weight being held and the surface area on material and thickness and compressibility of material. Thickness and compressibility effect ability to isolate, so thicker will isolate but load will decrease. Point being you need to design for your application based on your speakers weight and availability of material and thickness.  Sorbothane from US manufactures is available from eBay and Amazon. You can stack pieces together to get desired thickness. Here are links to calculators if you want to design for your application.  https://www.sorbothane.com/Data/Sites/31/edg/load-rating-calculator.html from there you can determine proper load and use vibration calculator to determine isolation https://www.sorbothane.com/Data/Sites/31/edg/load-rating-calculator.html. The material is not too expensive. For example to decouple a couple 250lb speakers and two large subwoofers (16 pads) can be done for under $200.

Tillerman

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Re: Larger Subwoofer and wood floors
« Reply #6 on: 26 Dec 2021, 08:25 pm »
Good information and links GeorgeAb. Something to research further on my end.

richidoo

Re: Larger Subwoofer and wood floors
« Reply #7 on: 27 Dec 2021, 02:52 am »
If you have access to the crawl space you can put a column under each speaker. This can really tighten up the sound.

The best isolation footer is sorbothane hemispheres, but you have to load them correctly. Too little or too much weight on them will reduce the damping.