[Soundminded]

Do I need Power Conditoning?

The honest answer is probably not. At most you need an MOV to protect your equipment, in fact every electrical device in your home from damage due to overvoltage resulting from spikes and surges. Generally power supplied from the power company is as good as you will get from anything you buy. If you have very expensive audio equipment it should have its own well regulated power supply that will filter out any noise on the AC line including RF anyway. All electronc devices operate on DC and one job of the power supply is to filter out ripples and spikes. That's what the large electrolytic capacitors in them do. If you have less expensive equipment then you wouldn't benefit from it either.

Electrical disturbances fall into 9 categories. Ask the people trying to sell you a power conditioner which ones their product will deal with, how effectively, and which ones it won't. If you have real power problems such as overvoltage, periodic brownouts, a cheap conditoner will not work. That is a far more expensive problem to correct. The ultimate solution is called a double static conversion UPS. You're looking at thousands. It deals effectively with all nine of them. Don't waste your money, buy something of real use to you instead. It's just another scam.  BTW, if you want to test such a device other than by looking at manufacturer's specifications (real ones like Eaton and Liebert/Emerson will give you complete specs, they have nothing to hide and nothing to gain from hype) the only way is to compare performance when the equipment is on line to the way your equipment performs when it is bypass. Unless a bypass circuit is built in, building one yourself can be very dangerous unless you know exactly what you are doing and it will not be covered by UL. That means you will be responsible for any accident from it.

[JDUBS]

The ultimate solution is called a double static conversion UPS. You're looking at thousands. It deals effectively with all nine of them.

I am a big fan of my Liebert GXT2-3000 / 120v double conversion UPS.  These can be picked up for fairly cheap on eBay.

-Jim

[Speedskater]

Wow, a most excellent post by "Soundminded".

[THROWBACK]

To me, one way you can tell if you need power conditioning or not is if you suffer from Sunday-night/Monday-morning (SNMM)syndrome. Sunday night, your system sounds warm and wonderful; Monday morning it sounds cold and uninvolving. Same piece of music.

I had SNMM syndrome before I installed a Running Springs (RS) conditioner. Now I don't. Simple as that. I have, on occasion, rechecked its effectiveness by removing it from the system, but I immediately notice the difference and put it back in. I have no idea what my powerline is doing (voltage fluctuations, spikes, etc.).  I do not live in a particularly industrial area and I do not know how the RS would fare if there were real nasties to deal with, but it is just fine for my present situation.

I have no affiliation with Running Springs. Might other conditioners do as well or better? Possibly; I have not done an exhaustive comparison. I bought the RS on recommendation of my friend John Barnes and it seemed to work as advertised so I declined to try anything else. I had a Titan transformer once, but that did not seem to reduce SNMM. The new Shunyata PC's have received a lot of good press lately, but I am happy with what I have.

[Early B.]

I am a big fan of my Liebert GXT2-3000 / 120v double conversion UPS.  These can be picked up for fairly cheap on eBay.

My understanding is that a UPS tends to be noisy, i.e. they introduce a low level hum. Some of them have fans. If that's true, wouldn't the use of a UPS be counterproductive to achieving a black background?

[DTB300]

To me, one way you can tell if you need power conditioning or not is if you suffer from Sunday-night/Monday-morning (SNMM)syndrome. Sunday night, your system sounds warm and wonderful; Monday morning it sounds cold and uninvolving. Same piece of music.

I had SNMM syndrome before I installed a Running Springs (RS) conditioner. Now I don't. Simple as that. I have, on occasion, rechecked its effectiveness by removing it from the system, but I immediately notice the difference and put it back in.

The Running Springs stuff is great.  You brought up a good point, most do not realize how good power conditioning is until they have one in their setup for a few days then remove it.  People are amazed at how much change for the worse occurs after removing it.

I am a fan of either Running Springs or Shunyata for PC's.  Have tried MANY MANY others and I keep coming back to these two.

[TONEPUB]

The honest answer is probably not. At most you need an MOV to protect your equipment, in fact every electrical device in your home from damage due to overvoltage resulting from spikes and surges. Generally power supplied from the power company is as good as you will get from anything you buy. If you have very expensive audio equipment it should have its own well regulated power supply that will filter out any noise on the AC line including RF anyway. All electronc devices operate on DC and one job of the power supply is to filter out ripples and spikes. That's what the large electrolytic capacitors in them do. If you have less expensive equipment then you wouldn't benefit from it either.

Electrical disturbances fall into 9 categories. Ask the people trying to sell you a power conditioner which ones their product will deal with, how effectively, and which ones it won't. If you have real power problems such as overvoltage, periodic brownouts, a cheap conditoner will not work. That is a far more expensive problem to correct. The ultimate solution is called a double static conversion UPS. You're looking at thousands. It deals effectively with all nine of them. Don't waste your money, buy something of real use to you instead. It's just another scam.  BTW, if you want to test such a device other than by looking at manufacturer's specifications (real ones like Eaton and Liebert/Emerson will give you complete specs, they have nothing to hide and nothing to gain from hype) the only way is to compare performance when the equipment is on line to the way your equipment performs when it is bypass. Unless a bypass circuit is built in, building one yourself can be very dangerous unless you know exactly what you are doing and it will not be covered by UL. That means you will be responsible for any accident from it.

I hate to disagree here, but I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box, and even a number of highly skeptical manufacturers that swore up and down that "their gear didn't need line conditioning" changed their mind after a 30 sec demo.

This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard.

And, if you don't believe me, grab a RSA box from a dealer for a demo.

[rollo]

I hate to disagree here, but I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box, and even a number of highly skeptical manufacturers that swore up and down that "their gear didn't need line conditioning" changed their mind after a 30 sec demo.

This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard.

And, if you don't believe me, grab a RSA box from a dealer for a demo.

+1 on Power conditioning. Cannot comment on RS since we never tried one.


charles

[Big Red Machine]

I used to think I had decent power in my house.  Power conditioning saved the day and removed the hash.  Still looking for more reduction.

[jtwrace]

I hate to disagree here, but I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box, and even a number of highly skeptical manufacturers that swore up and down that "their gear didn't need line conditioning" changed their mind after a 30 sec demo.

This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard.

And, if you don't believe me, grab a RSA box from a dealer for a demo.

I agree that I've never heard equipment not sound better. 

I'd like for you to try one of the PI Audio UberBusses though.   I know it's not the "hi end" equipment that you normally try but it would be nice if you could sneak in reasonably priced peices into an issue every time (which I've seen more of lately).  The funny part is that the Buss might surprise you. 

Game?

[TONEPUB]

Nope.  I've heard it and it didn't do the job.  All of the lower priced conditioners I've heard do more harm than good.  The two lowest priced PC's I've heard that don't affect dynamics or tonality have been the RSA Elgar, and the IsoTek EVO3 Sirius both at $995.  If you're going to scrimp on a PC, don't bother.  People that do, always go back to the realization that the gear sounds ultimately better plugged into the wall.

On a higher end note, I just got the PS Audio P10 in and it's very impressive so far.  I've always found the PS stuff to come up short in dynamics, but the new P10 is excellent.  The review is in process.

And for what it's worth, our product mix is the same.  We've always tried to put a good mix of entry levee/reasonably priced gear in the pages.  It always depends more on who has what available at the time, rather than a conscious effort to review one thing over another! 

[JDUBS]

My understanding is that a UPS tends to be noisy, i.e. they introduce a low level hum. Some of them have fans. If that's true, wouldn't the use of a UPS be counterproductive to achieving a black background?

Zero hum.  Yes, they do have fans, but they are standard issue computer fans that are easily replaced with essentially-silent 14dba fans.

There's been several threads on the Lieberts on Audiocircle.  Check them out for more info.  Again, highly recommended for pure AC regeneration.

-Jim

[Folsom]

I wouldn't have a stereo without power conditioning because I just wouldn't care to listen to it that much.

I consider it the cornerstone.

You don't need it, but why on earth would you want to listen to a stereo without it?

[Soundminded]

I hate to disagree here, but I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box, and even a number of highly skeptical manufacturers that swore up and down that "their gear didn't need line conditioning" changed their mind after a 30 sec demo.

This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard.

And, if you don't believe me, grab a RSA box from a dealer for a demo.

"I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box"

And I design power distribution systems for among other things some of the highest tech labs in the world including electron microscopes that magnify objects by hundreds of thousands of times their actual size and other instruments that photograph individual atoms. If that equipment doesn't require it why does the crap the high end audio industry sells need it? Can't they figure out how to design a power supply that's stable enough and sufficiently immune to noise so that it functions properly?

[Folsom]

"I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box"

And I design power distribution systems for among other things some of the highest tech labs in the world including electron microscopes that magnify objects by hundreds of thousands of times their actual size and other instruments that photograph individual atoms. If that equipment doesn't require it why does the crap the high end audio industry sells need it? Can't they figure out how to design a power supply that's stable enough and sufficiently immune to noise so that it functions properly?

Yes and no... Your stuff is vastly different.

First off your needs are not that dynamic on power usage, where as audio happens to be. For you, if 1's are 1's and 0's are 0's it doesn't matter how much extra noise and distortion is being generated post-optics unless it begins to change the information. In audio the conversion to analog exploits all the potential noise, distortion, etc, that matters entirely not in your field. I mean if you get a bit of artifacts on the screen once in awhile - that are too small too matter - it isn't going to ruin the examination.

Now I certainly may be ignorant to some of the workings on the things you deal with but... I think my point resonates pretty well.

[TONEPUB]

"I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box"

And I design power distribution systems for among other things some of the highest tech labs in the world including electron microscopes that magnify objects by hundreds of thousands of times their actual size and other instruments that photograph individual atoms. If that equipment doesn't require it why does the crap the high end audio industry sells need it? Can't they figure out how to design a power supply that's stable enough and sufficiently immune to noise so that it functions properly?

Actually if you talk to the guys at Shunyata and RSA, they've both sold their products to the medical industry for that purpose...
That world has also started to investigate the whole vibration control thing as well, with positive results.

[Diamond Dog]

Actually if you talk to the guys at Shunyata and RSA, they've both sold their products to the medical industry for that purpose...

Plitron ( Torus ) has also been selling into that and other industrial markets for a while now.

D.D.

[vhiner]

I wouldn't have a stereo without power conditioning because I just wouldn't care to listen to it that much.

I consider it the cornerstone.

You don't need it, but why on earth would you want to listen to a stereo without it?

+1.  There's hifi and then there's music. I prefer music, which is what a *good* power conditioner enables me to hear more of.

[ajzepp]

WHOA, where did all you people come from 

So if I hear absolutely NO hum whatsoever through my speakers when my gear is on and ready to go, is that an indication that I might have relatively clean power? Especially since I have the Tripp-Lite conditioners in the loop?

If what tonepub said is true, and it's just not worth it unless you're going to spend a lot of money on something really good, then screw it. I think my system sounds damn good right now, but I'm always looking for ways to help it sound better just like everyone else

[Geardaddy]

It is the cornerstone of a low fatigue system you actually want to listen too.

1+ to that comment.

As I "evolve" in this hobby (or become progressively more deceived... ), I have realized that room and power are foundational.  I do a fair amount of blinded testing of non-audiophiles to make sure I am not the victim of witchcraft.  Power conditioners do make a difference.  I do agree with Soundminded in that good, regulated power supplies should be relatively impervious to power disturbances.   However, the sonic differences with and without my conditioner (Dale Pitcher's Thereom) is glaring.  You go from relatively flat, cardboard sounding to a more 3d soundstage, decay, etc.  And that is with equipment that possesses large, regulated power supplies from manufacturers who state that conditioners are deleterious to their products performance. 

So, Soundmind, what pearls can you throw our way?  Do whole-house grounding schemes (ionic) make a difference?  Isolation transformers?  What should we be doing? 

Soundmind, when did you graduate from EE?  It seems as if many tools I know believe most of audio is witchcraft.  The blinded experiments from the 80s which apparently demonstrated that coat hangers are equivalent to expensive wire seems to be part of your textbook, knowledge base.  Here is a question for you:  do you believe power products or wire can effect timing errors (jitter) in the digital domain?  Is there any good science to demonstrate why any of this makes a difference?