AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: MichaelHiFi on 22 Aug 2012, 09:08 pm
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My Super V's have been getting a lot of playing time. They have been well recieved by many who have passed through the doors of our home. Funny though as they sounded their worse during the get-to-gether, regardless, upstream issues have been mitigated and all is well. Of course there's always room for improvement :wink:
As some folks already know, I'm using a pair of Joule Electra VZN100's mono tube amps on the V's. This was one of those traded for to sell, oh hell, hook em up oh my God moments. Since then a number of amps have graced my room, most recently the nCores. No contest though, the Joules ate them and didn't even burp. :nono: We really didn't want to like those Joules.
The most noticable songs/bands that the LS6's had major goosebump factor were Depeche Mode "Ultra" Shiny Toy Guns Seaon of Poison, Porcupine tree, a few others. I mean it sounds great to awesome in our room now but we did have LS6's which set an amazingly high bar in that regard. The LS6's could also be ruthless with some music unless very careful attention was paid to noise in the upstream components, especially in the AC that feeds the system.
I had a Melody integrated the AN11 playing through the V's which I need to finish my review of. Really nice amp by the way!
We've played our catalog of music a few times now and what comes to mind is what might be lacking compared to our next favorite speaker, the LS6. The V in my humble opinion can play with any speaker I've heard. That is, it'll play vocals, rock, folk, electronica, you name it with grace and aplomb. Compared to the LS6 however it missing at projecting the pressure around the mid-bass region. I'm comparing this to the LS6's which are great in this area. My wife and I always admired Wilsons for this reason and enjoyed the 6's in the same way. I'm betting another pair of servo subs or something like would be awful fun. Bridge to the LS6's? :scratch:
Are we crazy? :o
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M,
The answer to your question lays with LS9. :)
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Interesting observation about the sense of power or presense (if I feel you right) in the bass region. What might that be attributed to?
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The subs on the Super V sound good up to 200hz, you might just try running them higher to get more midbass impact.
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Interesting observation about the sense of power or presense (if I feel you right) in the bass region. What might that be attributed to?
The LS6's are a sealed box design, the Super V's are open baffle.
I "fiddled" early on with the plate amp controls. It seemed that I was always going backward in sound, so I left them alone other than of course volume. Maybe I need plate amp 101 to figure them out further :?
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Michael.
Do you have any specific examples of songs/music that you thought were lacking in mid bass, or do you know the specific frequency range involved? - Knowing this might give you an idea of which way to go (my guess would be a couple of servo subs in the "swarm" configuration would be your best bet)
Kind of interesting though. I'm thinking of going from my LS-6'es to Super V's - well adding them really. Would listen to most 2 channel on the Super V's and HT on the LS-6'es.
I even convinced Anne to fly out to Denver for the Sunday of RMAF to give them a listen.
(sure hope Danny brings 'em again :slap:)
:green:
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(sure hope Danny brings 'em again :slap:)
Me too!
You can mark the current settings with blue tape and pencil so you can fiddle. You probably already have the crossover frequency knob cranked high as possible? And sub lowpass filter switch set to 80Hz/24?
See Danny's description of the plate amp controls on his website.
http://gr-research.com/a370peq.aspx
Don't forget about speaker positioning. A small move can make a big difference. It takes a while to find a great position.
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Michael HIFI, I own CLS 9's, they have multiple ports and I believe the LS 6's have multiple ports as well (you mentioned sealed box so I was confused). This is one reason why the bass goes so low.
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I'll ride with you Michael. I have never heard a bass line like the OB subs in the Super V's. They are incredibly articulate.
1) Maybe you just need more of the OB subs with higher powered amplifiers to get the output you crave.
2) Could there be some sort of back reflected wave or phase problem reducing/canceling the output volume?
3) I'll borrow a truck and bring you down my LS6 for you to live with for a month and I'll take home the Super V's.
I would have a better understanding of your problem.
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I'll ride with you Michael. I have never heard a bass line like the OB subs in the Super V's. They are incredibly articulate.
1) Maybe you just need more of the OB subs with higher powered amplifiers to get the output you crave.
2) Could there be some sort of back reflected wave or phase problem reducing/canceling the output volume?
3) I'll borrow a truck and bring you down my LS6 for you to live with for a month and I'll take home the Super V's.
I would have a better understanding of your problem.
Hahahahahahaha. ROFlMAO!
Michael, Good God man. Your system is the best that I and every other person who has walked through your door that I have spoken with has ever heard!
Having said that, could you improve it? Why not? Want my opinion? I'll agree with Steve, I would need a solid 6 months in my space to research properly!
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Hahahahahahaha. ROFlMAO!
Michael, Good God man. Your system is the best that I and every other person who has walked through your door that I have spoken with has ever heard! Having said that, could you improve it? Why not? Want my opinion? I'll agree with Steve, I would need a solid 6 months in my space to research properly!
Well then, you guys just need to get out more! :green:
j/k :lol:
I know that I think very highly of the Super-V's and am fairly confident that you need to spend waaaaaaaaaay more to clearly better them.
Michael - make some adjustments! Fine tune them - I think it takes an awful lot of money to get something that is definitely better.
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Yes, get three more servo 12s per channel and run them on another servo amp......five 12s per channel will make your pant legs flap! You would need bass room correction at that point.....you would start to excite room nodes......but with proper eq. 5 woofs per channel would be absolutely killer.
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Michael HIFI, I own CLS 9's, they have multiple ports and I believe the LS 6's have multiple ports as well (you mentioned sealed box so I was confused). This is one reason why the bass goes so low.
That's right PTB, the 6's are ported, my bad. :oops:
I guess I should check in at the Rythmic circle?
Steve - I might take you up on that offer but you might not give my V's back!
Morgan - Make sure the home you choose is V friendly. Both you and Scott need a change of indoor scenery! Your neighbors simply don't appreciate performance audio. Maybe you don't invite them over enough :lol:
That's the ticket SoCal, own both the LS6 and the Super V's!
Craig, another audio guy has a Yamamoto amp to try on the V's. He's the gentleman who owns the nCores that he graciously loaned me. He's very local, like a few blocks away. There will be some equipment swapping me thinks. :thumb: He was really digging the system. Maybe blown away :green: Danny really did a good job with these things.
I need some folks over for another listen. Perhaps tonight, tomorrow or Saturday. Lets party :banana piano:
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M,
The answer to your question lays with LS9. :)
I agree.
M, before making any decisions, you should really listen to a pair of 9's. To me they are even better than the 6's. I can believe that the Vs can hang (possibly slightly better in some ways) with the 6's. I would not believe that to be so with the 9's.
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The 9's are better than the 6's. I've heard them back to back in Danny's living room. Just a bit stronger bass, a bit more clarityof mids. However, the V's have better bass below 30 hz and maybe cleaner below 40. You also don't fight the room nearly as much. The primary things that the 9s bring that the V's don't match are dynamics and orchestra hall ambience.
Scott
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Your lovely wife may not give the LS6 back. In risk there is big reward!
Seriously, I think you have a huge winner in the system you have right now. The low output bass level may be a simple wave cancelation issue. It really could be resolved by moving the speakers a little further back into the room. Most people on this forum will work very hard to achieve the type of system synergy that you have going today. I really like the way everything sounds at your house right now.
Or maybe we are onto something here. Audio Swap! It would make for a great reality TV Show.
Booze Broads and Bass. The Trifecta of high TV ratings. Sorry can't be there Sat. Midbass slam improvements are always needed and red wine pouring seems to clear them up but Americas Cup is in town. Anyone up for watching the boys and thier bazillion dollar toys race at the SF city front? Plenty of heavy wet wind and menacing tidal currents in the bay and under the GG bridge make for good fun on a sailboat.
Welcome home Americas Cup!
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Welcome home Americas Cup!
Indeed! It's my fav sport. I'm watching the stream, each day this week, 2pm PDT
https://www.youtube.com/user/AmericasCup/feed
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The primary things that the 9s bring that the V's don't match are dynamics and orchestra hall ambience.
Scott
You forgot speed and clarity. Especially for the highs and mids.
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The difference is how they load the room. That's what you are hearing or remember about the LS-6's that is different from the Super-V.
If you really want to freak out and have a bottom end foundation like you have never heard, you can take it up another notch. You can set a pair of sealed box servo subs in the back corners of your room running out of phase from the Super-V's. That will give you some incredible foundation while still not loading the room. In fact the room will be less loaded and more evenly balanced.
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Danny:
What exactly do you mean when you say "load the room?"
Thanks,
Larry
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+1.
You forgot speed and clarity. Especially for the highs and mids.
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Danny:
What exactly do you mean when you say "load the room?"
Thanks,
Larry
The LS-6 and LS-9 create a cylindrical wave form that can put a lot of pressure into the room and can create a wide range of standing waves. Increases from such room gain are common. So both speakers have a bass management circuit that can be adjusted by the customer to minimize the output in the lower region to help balance out room gains.
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If anyone would have the answer it would be Danny. That is a solution that could work really well for the Super V!
Danny for those of us with the LS products looking to get the detail in the low low registers we are missing would we go open baffle or boxed servo bass. To ask another way would the open baffle servo bass be overpowered by the LS Bass and the detail lost? So Boxed Servo Bass would be best? or would one use the built in crossover on the LS when using a servo sub and the Open Baffle style would be best?
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If anyone would have the answer it would be Danny. That is a solution that could work really well for the Super V!
Danny for those of us with the LS products looking to get the detail in the low low registers we are missing would we go open baffle or boxed servo bass. To ask another way would the open baffle servo bass be overpowered by the LS Bass and the detail lost? So Boxed Servo Bass would be best? or would one use the built in crossover on the LS when using a servo sub and the Open Baffle style would be best?
If you have LS-6's or LS-9's and they do load you room in such a way that it is masking resolution in the lower ranges then you can implement the same thing I just suggested to Michael and his Super-V's.
You can set a pair of servo subs in the back corners of the room and run them out of phase from your main speakers. This will even out the room loading and take away the boominess in those lower ranges.
It is the same basic thing as the popular swarm type subwoofer set up.
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What specific sub would work well with the SuperVs?
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What specific sub would work well with the SuperVs?
For the back of the room we use the SW-12-04 servo subs in 1.5 cubic foot sealed boxes.
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Thank you Danny!
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Indeed! It's my fav sport. I'm watching the stream, each day this week, 2pm PDT
https://www.youtube.com/user/AmericasCup/feed
We are trying to get on a boat to watch from the water on saturday. We'll be flying the Corinthian Yacht Club colors. Worst case I'll be the guy in the Puma/Oracle Number 5 sweatshirt screaming at the top of my lungs. "Trim,Trim,Trim ya waleyed lubber" from the bleachers yelling at my iPad watching the stream. Oh well it keeps me out of the pubs.
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For the heck of it I placed my HT subs in the back corners of my "V" room a couple of months ago. Each has a dual 12" Dayton, powered, in a sealed cabinet. After a bit of work with REW, I have a very nice result. In my case the volume of the rear subs is a lot lower than the servos. When I get my HT up and running in the new house I'll need the subs back, but I'll replace them with a couple of Dannys offerings then. I really like the results.
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we can compare the performance of the 9s at my place with various equipment. we can have a small number of people for a little gtg !! what do you say steve ?
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I'm in. Michael, his gracious wife and Morgan do need to hear your system. We could get some airfare coupons for SoCal. They will get a picture of what LS9's can sound like in a perfect room with a Meaning of Life (MOL) system. If there was anyone that could advise you on going to tubes and giving up the solid state bug it would be these guys. They have forgotton more than I will ever know about tube amps.
It's time for me to get a LS9 fix. I'll bring my Dodd Battery pre. I know you would like it.
I have never been in a better room than yours Sunil. An invitation from you is like gold.
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A little GTG would be a good idea if you could do some gear swapping and get a comparison between the different speakers. I can imagine swapping out sources, preamps, and even some of those big amps, but......
The real test is swapping out speakers, and at the size/weight of these behemoths - (eeek emoticon)
I think Steve should load up his 6'es, Michael can see what a different room does for his Super V's, and I'll bring some wine. :icon_twisted:
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Me too!
You can mark the current settings with blue tape and pencil so you can fiddle. You probably already have the crossover frequency knob cranked high as possible? And sub lowpass filter switch set to 80Hz/24?
See Danny's description of the plate amp controls on his website.
http://gr-research.com/a370peq.aspx
Don't forget about speaker positioning. A small move can make a big difference. It takes a while to find a great position.
:dunno:
.... he hasn't risen to the bait....
:shake:
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.... he hasn't risen to the bait....
Probably has something even better cooking for RMAF. :thumb:
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Probably has something even better cooking for RMAF. :thumb:
(hey moderators - we need more emoticons!)
(insert emoticon of my money flying out the window)
Last I heard the X-Otica was not exactly going to be in the budget line......but if it's even better than the Super-V's......
:banana piano: :beer: :bounce: :dance:
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I just searched AC to bring myself up to speed on this X-Otica design. Sounds very cool!
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A little GTG would be a good idea if you could do some gear swapping and get a comparison between the different speakers. I can imagine swapping out sources, preamps, and even some of those big amps, but......
The real test is swapping out speakers, and at the size/weight of these behemoths - (eeek emoticon)
I think Steve should load up his 6'es, Michael can see what a different room does for his Super V's, and I'll bring some wine. :icon_twisted:
You really want to hear Sunil's(Soundofrockets) LS9 room. You met him at Michaels original GTG. Who are we waiting for?
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I'm in :thumb: I actually prefer a gtg to be all about hearing the great system synergy that someone has put together.....and of course throwing in an extra $15,000 pair of monoblocks or two :thumb: (Maybe Michael will pull another rabbit out of his hat!).
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Is this gtg going to be NoCal or SoCal?
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well if everything works out fine we can meet up sometime in late september or october. that would in northern california !!
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There's a little event the weekend of October 12-15 that a few people might already be commited to (I know I am). :green:
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Pray tell! What could it be? Halloween perhaps?
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Is this gtg going to be NoCal or SoCal?
If you came up Hugh and brought a pair of those sweet Melody tube monoes I'm sure Helen and I could let you use one of the bedrooms at the house.
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Pray tell! What could it be? Halloween perhaps?
Nope, Hallowen still falls on the 31st this year, but it can take me several weeks to prepare if I do the setup at the in-laws again.
(drat, can't find any old photos....used to take one day to load all the stuff into a truck pulling a trailer, two days to set up, and the the better part of a day to break it all down, not to mention another day to load it up into rafters afterwards. Stopped several years ago, but did it last year on a smaller scale- full size Dodge p/u with 8 foot bed and a Toyota Sequoia both loaded to overflowing. Even made the San Diego local TV news one year :green:)
Did finally book a room and car for the show though, airplane tickets last week. :bounce:
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It depends on the date. :)
Too close to Oct 8 then I won't be able to do it since we'll be on our way to RMAF.
I'd love to attend if it's at all possible.
Thanks,
If you came up Hugh and brought a pair of those sweet Melody tube monoes I'm sure Helen and I could let you use one of the bedrooms at the house.
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Be sure to stop by our room for a beer or 2. :)
Nope, Hallowen still falls on the 31st this year, but it can take me several weeks to prepare if I do the setup at the in-laws again.
(drat, can't find any old photos....used to take one day to load all the stuff into a truck pulling a trailer, two days to set up, and the the better part of a day to break it all down, not to mention another day to load it up into rafters afterwards. Stopped several years ago, but did it last year on a smaller scale- full size Dodge p/u with 8 foot bed and a Toyota Sequoia both loaded to overflowing. Even made the San Diego local TV news one year :green:)
Did finally book a room and car for the show though, airplane tickets last week. :bounce:
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Whoa :cyclops:
OK, I see speakers traveling with gear. Talk of tall bohemoths, squatty V's, exotics and tube amps. And a major equipment swap with some SATA systems.
I see visions - northern Cal, SoCal and boats on the bay. Cheese and wine, and throw in a preamp. But what does all this mean? :scratch:
Our home in open to those in this thread. We can put some wayward folks up as well if they promise to accept our entertaining young man.
My wife and I would totally be in to hearing the 9's. I'm into bringing equipment to where ever, just need to know when ever?
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Line Source are the key to enlightenment. Finally you will be able to hear! Allow the inner listener/observer to get some bass on his face.
Looks like Holloween and RMAF weekends are out. The week of 9/17 we are on vacation.
Pick some dates Sunil and let's see what happens.
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And while we are making requests, Sundays are always better for me than Saturdays in the fall, I can TiVo NFl, but college football I have to watch live! :D
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i will have to finalize the dates with the home ministry. how does september 29 or october 6th sound. i know they are both saturdays but sundays are more challenging for me.
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I want a date with Christy Brinkley!
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i will have to finalize the dates with the home ministry. how does september 29 or october 6th sound. i know they are both saturdays but sundays are more challenging for me.
I'm better with the 29th of September. Where are you located?
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I want a date with Christy Brinkley!
umm, your wife is arranging the date now.
Well, after she gets of of the phone with her lawyer. :nono:
Stereo gear is cheaper... :thumb:
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Is this gtg going to be NoCal or SoCal?
Pick ya up?? :thumb:
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If you're serious then...absolutely.
Thanks,
Pick ya up?? :thumb:
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September 29 is perfect.
i will have to finalize the dates with the home ministry. how does september 29 or october 6th sound. i know they are both saturdays but sundays are more challenging for me.
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If you're serious then...absolutely.
Thanks,
Semi-serious at the moment. I'll wait and see on what day is chosen and go from there. All this pending on the fact that I get an invite on going of course. lol
Can a fellow LS6 owner possibly tag along? :)
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Definitely need a better grasp on the scale of this thing - would love to be invited (but on the other hand, I will be going to RMAF and get a fix there :icon_twisted:)
No plans for either weekend mentioned at this point. I would probably try to fly from Ontario to SJ (or whichever airport is closer), grab a car and fly back late all in the same day. WIll be fun to see Steve, Michael, and any of the rest of the AC gang, and listen to good music on good systems, making some comparisons.
Not sure about the logistics and how close people live to one another, but...
Anybody ever tried splitting one of these up? Two setups in one day? Maybe a few hours at one house, drive to a restaurant (in between) and eat. Then go to the second house for a different setup? Would make the hosting a bit easier (IMO - less concern over food and losing house for the whole day)
:duel:
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ok guys. the ministry of home, defence and finance has approved sept 29th as the day.
lets work on the list of guests.
time schedule.
i will list my gear soon.
if others are interested in bringing their gear for comparision it will good to have list.
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ok guys. the ministry of home, defence and finance has approved sept 29th as the day.
lets work on the list of guests.
time schedule.
i will list my gear soon.
if others are interested in bringing their gear for comparision it will good to have list.
What part of NorCal??
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i am located in fairfield, ca near napa in a small town called green valley.
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Once you guys got the date down then I'll see what I could bring. :)
Off the top of my head, I'm thinking Melody PB101, M845, & may be AN845.
ok guys. the ministry of home, defence and finance has approved sept 29th as the day.
lets work on the list of guests.
time schedule.
i will list my gear soon.
if others are interested in bringing their gear for comparision it will good to have list.
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This is on the Calender. What time does it start?
I would bring my Dodd Audio Battery Linesource Preamp - Battery and Trickle Charger. I thought you might want to hear this in your sustem.
This is Gary's Generation 2 Product.
I'm going shopping for some MOL Pinot Noir for the event.
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How about 1300hrs. We can start earlier too if interested.
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That's a long time. Many hours.
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Sharp eyes there. ;) :D
That's a long time. Many hours.
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I didn't know you were in the military.
SoCal- If you are flying up I would go into Oakland. You'd save about another hour of driving. If you fly into Sonoma International (Santa Rosa) We could ride in together. It's hard to find flights in and out but if you do the savings in time, gas and car rental are well worth it.
Morgan- I'll offer you some space on my cable box hardrive for saturday football recordings!
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Yeah, I figured Oakland would be the better bet. I'll do some talking to Anne over the weekend (she made some noises about going :o), and look into airfare - seems like I should have some Southwest tickets coming. That's a long, B O R I N G drive from here.
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I would stay in Fairfield cause it's easy from Sunils house. Then run back to Oakland the next day.
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I would stay in Fairfield cause it's easy from Sunils house. Then run back to Oakland the next day.
Maybe....
Probably an early/short day, call it quits early evening and fly back that night.