[THROWBACK]

Hi Danny,
This may have been discussed before, but I could use a review.

I am trying to mate three stacked SW-12-16FR OB woofers on a side--driven by A370PEQ amps--with my Soundlab M-1 electrostats. The A370 has a number of adjustments and controls that, I suspect, must be manipulated in a prescribed sequence. I have been playing with these, but I'm not sure I am doing it right to get the maximum benefit.

It would be helpful if you would lay out a procedure--"Subwoofers for Dummies"--that would take us step by step through the process using something like the Stereophile Test CD warble tones and a Radio Shack Meter (and, of course, ears). You could then post the procedure on your website as a helpful instruction manual. (If you have already done this somewhere, I would appreciate a link.)

There are so many interactive controls and possible adjustments that--when you throw in a room and an external crossover--it is possible to flounder around for a long time without getting anywhere. I know when you go to a show you spend a lot of time getting everything set just right. And you have done this countless times. We who are much less experienced have a tougher time.

You make a great product and I want to make sure I am getting the most out of it.

Best Wishes,
Chuck

[Rclark]

 Danny is not much for instructions. His instructions are as terse and short as his forum posts. Even on the Insignia mod build I pretty much had to figure out how to build the crossover on my own, even after several emails and receiving several joke (useless, low res, not the right angle) photographs of the crossover. He gives you a schematic and says, have fun. I asked to see the completed product in higher res and I got a shot with all the wires up in the air (no joke).

 I call it DIYFU

If you're a first timer like I was, good luck. If I had been a less tenacious noob, my kit would still be a pile of resistors, inductors,wires and caps in my closet.

 I built it despite his instructions, not because of them.

[Danny Richie]

Danny is not much for instructions. His instructions are as terse and short as his forum posts. Even on the Insignia mod build I pretty much had to figure out how to build the crossover on my own, even after several emails and receiving several joke (useless, low res, not the right angle) photographs of the crossover. He gives you a schematic and says, have fun. I asked to see the completed product in higher res and I got a shot with all the wires up in the air (no joke).

 I call it DIYFU

If you're a first timer like I was, good luck. If I had been a less tenacious noob, my kit would still be a pile of resistors, inductors,wires and caps in my closet.

 I built it despite his instructions, not because of them.

Okay Reza,

I looked up your old Insignia upgrade kit order. I also checked for any and all e-mails with your name and/or e-mail address. I never received one e-mail from you about that upgrade after the purchase. Nor did I send one to you regarding that upgrade.

And every photo that I have of that upgrade is posted on our web site.

So not only did I not send you any photos but there are no other photos. 

And when you do order a kit from me you, have not only have easy access to me by phone and e-mail (and I do respond promptly) by you also have the resource of being able to post about anything here in my circle. So you are loaded with support.

And not only do you get a schematic showing you how to wire the crossover, but there is also a sticky here at the top of my circle that show you how to assemble a crossover (Crossover Assembly 101).

In all the years I have been selling kits (thousands of kits) I have only had one nooby not be able to put his crossovers together properly and I had him send them to me and I fixed them for him for free.

So don't say you don't get support around here. You must have me confused with someone else.

[Danny Richie]

Chuck,

Since I helped you with this once before I decided to let this one set long enough to allow others to post first. Sorry about Reza. He must have his buying experience with me confused with some other company.

At shows we typically set it up by ear. Each room is different so each time it is an all fresh set up.

The first thing to do is to figure out what your main speakers are doing and where they are rolling off. Seems like your main speakers play down fairly low. This actually makes setting the subs up much easier. The higher the crossover point the more variables there are to deal with in regards to placement and settings to get them to blend properly.

Since yours cross fairly low the wavelengths there are much longer and your placement becomes less of a challenge.

The only real variables for you to have to work with are phase and crossover.

A tone sweep disc and a Rat Shack SPL meter will help you see where your speakers are down and where you need to adjust the crossover point on the plate amp. Keep in mind too that you want them to both cross where they are 6db down.

Once that is figured out then you can work with the phase control until you get the most output or an flat sum at the crossover point. At that low crossover point you also have a lot of leeway.

After that the rest is personal taste. You can adjust the extension filters and damping settings as per where you like them best for your system.

There is even an EQ to help you fix any room issues within the band that the sub is covering.

Another thing to remember (I think I have mentioned this before) is to make sure when you measure your output levels that you do only one channel at a time.

Call me again if walking you through this stuff once more is needed. I am easy to reach.   

[jimdgoulding]

The man to talk to about that is Duke Lejuene at Audiokinesis.  He's a member here and has his own topic.  Duke has been a Sound Labs dealer for years and makes a three satellite sub-set in house to go with them.  He's your man.

[medium jim]

I'm sure there is some good advice waiting at the Bass Circle

Jim

[Danny Richie]

Thanks fellows but I think his best advice will come from right here. No one else outside of Brian Ding knows the servo system and controls any better.

Duke is a great guy and a good friend. He would also be glad to help anyone. And his swarm configuration is great, but isn't open baffle like Chuck's Soundlabs. Duke also is not as familiar with our servo system. Maybe one day I'll talk Duke into giving them a try though.

Chuck, from our lengthy e-mail exchange at the end of Feb. it sounded like you had it dialed in with some adjustment of the phase control. Is there something more that you are looking for?

[Rclark]

Danny I think you mistook that as an angry post. It wasn't.

Bottom line with the kit, there are no instructions for the crossover, just a schematic. The pics on your site are small and blurry and are no help when it came to splicing the wires. It was very much figure it out on your own. I did talk to you but you sent me a link from skiing ninja, which was hirez, yes, but all the wires were sticking straight up, so useless. I finally just hunkered down and learned the schematic. I figured that was your plan all along.

...Diyfu

No hard feelings intended AT ALL.

[Danny Richie]

First of all Reza, your post was off topic and in no way helped the original poster.

Bottom line with the kit, there are no instructions for the crossover, just a schematic.

It is a simple schematic with few parts. What more do you want? Every single kit we sell comes with a schematic.

The pics on your site are small and blurry and are no help when it came to splicing the wires.

The pics on the web site are to show the parts that you get with the kit. They are not for showing everyone how to wire it. You have to buy the kit to get that information.

It was very much figure it out on your own. I did talk to you but you sent me a link from skiing ninja, which was hirez, yes, but all the wires were sticking straight up, so useless.

Sean (the Skiing Ninja) offers crossover assembling services. He builds out crossovers for any of my customers that do not want to build them out for themselves. His pics are to show the quality of the work that you receive if you purchase his services. Those pics are not suppose to be a how to twist parts together guide. I already have a thread for that (Crossover Assembly 101). 

And if you have the schematic then you don't have to figure it out on your own. You have the complete wiring diagram (schematic)! And the values stated on the schematic match the values stated on the parts.

I finally just hunkered down and learned the schematic. I figured that was your plan all along.

Yes, it is my plan all along that each customer read and follow the schematic. It is not a hard lesson to learn. Thousands of customers have accomplished this without complaint. And if you can't figure it out there is a ton of support. This is not DIYFU. I make myself more available to my customers than just about any other company owner in this industry. Help is always here.

And I don't appreciate statements like this:

I pretty much had to figure out how to build the crossover on my own, even after several emails and receiving several joke (useless, low res, not the right angle) photographs of the crossover. He gives you a schematic and says, have fun. I asked to see the completed product in higher res and I got a shot with all the wires up in the air (no joke).

Especially since I did not get one e-mail from you about this nor did I send you any photos (no joke).

[Rclark]

I actually called you but you may not remember.

You may not remember, but I sure do! I was trying to figure out how to build the darn thing!

You have to remember for a first timer it's hugely intimidating, and as far as getting the splices in there, the photos on your site are/were no good. I think actual written instructions with large, clear photos that show all the angles would help a lot. It's ok, I obviously figured it out. I took the skiing ninja link as a joke, as in figure it out yourself.

[JohnR]

Danny I think you mistook that as an angry post. It wasn't.

It was a cheap shot. "DIY" implies learning. What a pathetic post.

[Rclark]

... I actually called you several times, not just about the x over. Anyway, making a mountain out of  molehill.

 (sorry Danny, did not mean for that to come across like that)

[medium jim]

Thanks fellows but I think his best advice will come from right here. No one else outside of Brian Ding knows the servo system and controls any better.

Duke is a great guy and a good friend. He would also be glad to help anyone. And his swarm configuration is great, but isn't open baffle like Chuck's Soundlabs. Duke also is not as familiar with our servo system. Maybe one day I'll talk Duke into giving them a try though.

Chuck, from our lengthy e-mail exchange at the end of Feb. it sounded like you had it dialed in with some adjustment of the phase control. Is there something more that you are looking for?

Danny:

There are many bass junkies posting on the Bass Place Circle which is dedicated to subs....and some actually know what their talking about

Jim

Jim

[THROWBACK]

Thanks, Danny
You have indeed been responsive and helpful in the past. Even though we have discussed this before, I'm glad I brought it up again because I learned (relearned?) a couple of things.

I have made some changes since my initial setup--new turntable, cartridge, tonearm and phono stage; also new amps for my Sound Labs and some internal component changes to my Sound Labs. Since everything affects everything, I basically have to start over integrating my subs.

I appreciate the setup review. I'll let you know if I need more help.

Regards,
Chuck

[bdp24]

Chuck---I just saw this thread, and thought I would ask you a little bit about your integration of ESL's and the GR/Rythmik OB subs. Did you put the three GR drivers per side in an H (or W) frame in dipole form (with the middle driver firing in the opposite direction as the outer two), or just on an open baffle? I've seen pics of a number of dual-driver OB subs, but never a triple. Did you go for one more driver per side expressly to get more output? Has the Rythmik 370W amp proven to have enough power for three drivers (one reason for using three of the GR 16 ohm drivers is to get their combined impedence down to around 4 ohms, to optimize the power output of the Rythmik amp), or would you suggest getting the Rythmik 600W for three drivers? Are your subs placed pretty close to the side walls (acceptable because of the side null inherent in dipole speakers)? How close are your subs to the ESL panels? Are the panels and the subs blending as well as you had, I assume, hoped for? That's enough with the questions already, eh? Thanks---Eric.

[JLM]

Small rooms (less than 10,000 cu. ft) all behave the same way.  Below the Schroeder frequency (120 - 200 Hz) sound mitigation changes from orderly resonances with huge (up to 40 dB) spl swings to a geometric/ray acoustics.  In such rooms low frequencies are characterized as standing waves (peaks and valleys - think of waves in a bath tub). 

The most viable solution for pairs of low frequency radiators is to locate them at opposite ends of the room, similar to Duke's swarm system as mentioned above.  The far less desirable alternatives are massive amounts of absorption (easy to completely "deaden" the room) or EQ (which can rob 80% of system power/peak spls to do it right).