AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Circles => Hypex Owners Circle => Topic started by: HT cOz on 14 Jun 2011, 09:28 pm
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Hypex has announced a new amp module that appears to be very exciting. Here is the link www.hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89
I'm looking forward to this fall and seeing where this goes.
Bruno the mastermind is taking ideas for a DIY version on DIY Audio. He will create one DIY module available to the public. :thumb:
Quote from Bruno Putzeys "The NC1200 is just the first Ncore module and it's quite specifically targeted at VARs (that's the correct term for "OEM customers"). A module for the DIY market is in the planning stage. Nothing is very concrete yet, apart from that it will be très chique and reasonably powered. I think this might be the right moment for you guys to chip in with feature or spec suggestions. I can't guarantee we can do all of it but definitely every idea will be considered. What probably won't happen is a whole range of DIY Ncore modules because we've outgrown ourselves a bit so let's make this thing one that most people will be happy with."
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I'll be keeping an eye out for this. I've owned a UcD hypex amp in the past and really enjoyed it.
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Looks very interesting, thanks for posting.
White paper (http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/ncore%20wp.pdf)
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Bruno has posted a picture of the amps he is sending out to manufactures for evaluation.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50017)
Man I would love to evaluate a set of those :thumb:
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I wonder if Channel Islands Audio is one of the recipients of the evaluation amps?
In the past, with both Hypex and ICEpower modules, the amplifier manufacturer often distinguished their finished product with modified and/or proprietary input circuitry, but according to Bruno, this new Ncore doesn't need any improvement in that area.
Steve
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They have arrived. http://www.hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100:nc400&catid=52&Itemid=102
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55007)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55008)
Very interesting shape. At 325 Euros per module it is not inexpensive.... Here is to USD to EURO Parity! :thumb:
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They have arrived. http://www.hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100:nc400&catid=52&Itemid=102 (http://www.hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100:nc400&catid=52&Itemid=102)
Very interesting shape. At 325 Euros per module it is not inexpensive.... Here is to USD to EURO Parity! :thumb:
Thanks HT cOz, for the update!!!
I am very interested in hearing a finished amp. If anyone can post a link to some sellers when they come out, I'd appreciate it.
Joe
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and they are SOLD OUT :o
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Technical documentation has been posted ww.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf This is pretty exciting stuff! :thumb:
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Bump. Any updates?
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Check the dyaudio thread, though not a ton in the way of impressions yet.
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Thanks !
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As I understand it, the NC400 is DIY only while the NC1200 is for OEM. With that, has anyone heard of any manufacturers using the NC1200. I believe that Theta has a set of monoblocks coming out, anyone else?
Thanks
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:o
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Wow! Any ideas on how much to expect to pay for fully built amps? I want one.
Actually, heck with it, what do you need for DIY? Just a case and a power supply? Says t can take 24 amps.
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Wow! Any ideas on how much to expect to pay for fully built amps? I want one.
Kit only. $1300 buys two modules and two power supplies.
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I'd love to get my paws on a set of these... http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html
Martin
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I'd love to get my paws on a set of these... http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html
Martin
Ohh Yeahhh! Me, too. I don't often get power amp lust, now that I've got great powered monitors, but this makes me wish my speakers were passive.
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Yes, that is true. I have some NCORE amps in my house now. :shh:
So how do they sound? :wink:
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So how do they sound? :wink:
For one person's impression see here (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/New-nCore-400-Amplifier).
Anand.
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Huh, I'd love to see someone build one of these so I can follow along.
- for a few days there I was certain I wanted to try tube amp next, now not so sure, why bother :o
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Huh, I'd love to see someone build one of these so I can follow along.
- for a few days there I was certain I wanted to try tube amp next, now not so sure, why bother :o
Still dismissing tubes... Sigh. You have power-hungry speakers if I remember so tubes would be impractical anyways.
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well, it's not that... Not dismissing. I was actually considering saving up for some Manley Snappers, or something like that (still have a lot to learn about the different options I might have). 110 watts of full bandwidth power would be quite an upgrade to what I have now... (and a perfect match to my speakers, I've been told).
But from what I understand so far about these NCores is I could potentially spend a lot less, and have 400 watts on tap with from what everyone is saying, pretty revolutionary sonic attributes.
I would love to have tube monos... would certainly look a lot cooler... but ultimately it's power and fidelity that matter most at the least cash outlay.
"Ncore® is the first class D amplifier not just to nudge the best linear amplifiers, but to surpass them in every aspect relevant to sound quality."
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well, it's not that... Not dismissing. I was actually considering saving up for some Manley Snappers, or something like that (still have a lot to learn about the different options I might have). 110 watts of full bandwidth power would be quite an upgrade to what I have now... (and a perfect match to my speakers, I've been told).
But from what I understand so far about these NCores is I could potentially spend a lot less, and have 400 watts on tap with from what everyone is saying, pretty revolutionary sonic attributes.
I would love to have tube monos... would certainly look a lot cooler... but ultimately it's power and fidelity that matter most at the least cash outlay.
I understand, just giving you a hard time :P
When you need that much power, it's hard to justify tubes.
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Do you think their included PS is the best option? I am of course, in love with batteries now, but maybe you just don't need that sort of thing with these Ncores. But if it's an option I'd rather have a battery PS and forego any need for power conditioning. I read the pdf about the PS for the Ncore and it seems to be pretty robust, but my experience so far is that batteries are the best.
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Hey, stumbled across this neat tidbit in the DIY thread:
from Bruno, the designer:
"What would be the Ncore of DAC's? No idea. I have some serious plans to dive into a PWM based DAC, consisting of a modulator like the one described in http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/AES120BP.pdf and using a FIR type DAC for improved HF jitter tolerance. Although I'm aiming for much higher measured performance than even the ESS chips, I think that one of those or some other decent chip with a smartly designed I/V is not to be sneezed at. I'm halfway through the design of an AD1955 based board with a very fancy I/V (loads of feedback, as you can imagine), I have high hopes for it. "
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Still digging through that very technical thread over there:
Bruno- "A year ago a successful hi-fi importer and key figure in a very famous loudspeaker manufacturer responded to hearing an early prototype of the NC1200 (and contrasting its size, weight and cost against the reference set it had just beaten): "This thing is going to destroy the amplifier market as we know it. Which, for you, is good news of course." He then immediately went on to ouline the exact problem I knew I'm faced with and proposed to apply all his business acumen to finding a strategy. He still hasn't found anything workable.
So the problem is clearly tough but I am not at all convinced it is a dichotomy (in which there are exactly two solutions in mutual exclusivity). To show this, let's assume I take one of these choices and try to hit the "mass market". Taking the above importer's opinion at face value, how do we make the mass market appreciate that this is the real deal, the [name big brand] amp in a milk carton? Can you imagine any hi-fi reviewer picking up the courage to state that an amplifier has arrived that refers mammoth amps to the age of dinosaurs? Why do you think these guys are so good at waffling? If I work the mass market first, that gives them an excuse to say "yeah fine for mid-priced home theatre but there still is this stratosphere where linear amps rule", thus turning the old technology into something to aspire to. It's the perfect way of letting disruptive technology sit in the market for ages without anyone really noticing. That's why I think it's not either-or, but both-and. But that will take quite a bit of forethought.
Economists might imagine otherwise, but the free market is not run by rational, fully informed consumers. It is ran by opinions, partial information, pre-existing business interests and the pure chaos that any sufficiently non-linear feedback system has. The days that the superior technology automatically succeeds commercially on its own merits are over. Thanks for the link btw I will probably buy this book."
interesting stuff so far...
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I'm interested enough in this amp to have some enclosures made for the modules. I have a thread on diyaudio outlining the case design. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/205757-hypex-ncore-chassis-coz.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/205757-hypex-ncore-chassis-coz.html)
:rock:
Robert
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Yeah.. Me too! So about 15-16 hundred and You're rockin' ? If all this about it is true, cool!
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Still digging through that very technical thread over there:
Bruno- "A year ago a successful hi-fi importer and key figure in a very famous loudspeaker manufacturer responded to hearing an early prototype of the NC1200 (and contrasting its size, weight and cost against the reference set it had just beaten): "This thing is going to destroy the amplifier market as we know it. Which, for you, is good news of course." He then immediately went on to ouline the exact problem I knew I'm faced with and proposed to apply all his business acumen to finding a strategy. He still hasn't found anything workable.
So the problem is clearly tough but I am not at all convinced it is a dichotomy (in which there are exactly two solutions in mutual exclusivity). To show this, let's assume I take one of these choices and try to hit the "mass market". Taking the above importer's opinion at face value, how do we make the mass market appreciate that this is the real deal, the [name big brand] amp in a milk carton? Can you imagine any hi-fi reviewer picking up the courage to state that an amplifier has arrived that refers mammoth amps to the age of dinosaurs? Why do you think these guys are so good at waffling? If I work the mass market first, that gives them an excuse to say "yeah fine for mid-priced home theatre but there still is this stratosphere where linear amps rule", thus turning the old technology into something to aspire to. It's the perfect way of letting disruptive technology sit in the market for ages without anyone really noticing. That's why I think it's not either-or, but both-and. But that will take quite a bit of forethought.
Economists might imagine otherwise, but the free market is not run by rational, fully informed consumers. It is ran by opinions, partial information, pre-existing business interests and the pure chaos that any sufficiently non-linear feedback system has. The days that the superior technology automatically succeeds commercially on its own merits are over. Thanks for the link btw I will probably buy this book."
interesting stuff so far...
So far, they have not changed a thing. The only commercial manufacturer to use them thus far is Theta -- At $6,000 a channel. Hardly mainstream
If its that good there is little chance a manufacturer such as Channel Island, PSAudio etc will not step up. This is a perfect product for psaudio to jump back into amps. That said, not sure what the delay is!
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It's an excellent thread, they discuss all of those reasons. I dont need any more convincing to want to try some though, just need to save. Be cool to see what JT thinks though.
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Huh, I'd love to see someone build one of these so I can follow along.
- for a few days there I was certain I wanted to try tube amp next, now not so sure, why bother :o
I'm buying three Ncore amps (one chassis) for a Trinaural music system. Each circuit board (amp, PS) is fully assembled and tested. All components are pre-installed in the circuit boards. Wire inputs, outputs, interconnect two boards, done. No transformer required.
Looks like a breeze, really. Per channel can't be more than a couple hours of wiring/soldering after completing all mechanical assembly.
Two users selling their Atma-Sphere OTL monos in favor of new Ncore amps...both users have OTL-friendly speaker loads.
I spoke on the phone with Guido Tent of Tent Audio Labs (B-Audio DAC in 6moons) in the Netherlands, who makes a well received Hypex UcD based amp (no Ncore yet) with tube input, transformer coupling. A friend A-B'd the Tent amp with AKSA Naksa 100 (at my house now) and he preferred the Tent amp by "30-40%". Guido spoke reverently, very highly of his friend Bruno's latest Ncore technology (they are geographically close).
I'm pretty well sold on Ncore. I've not sampled a ton of digital amps, but in the MI world the Acoustic Image is tops (heard it on Duke LeJeune's Audio Kinesis Thunderchild Acoustic Friendly model, likely the best bass guitar/cello/acoustic guitar speaker extant. IMO the early Spectron was suck city. I heard several B&O ICE power-based Bel Canto and dislike it (some owners later came to same conclusion and sold Bel Canto). Finally heard CI Audio 200W Hypex UcD based amp at 2012 CES powering the fantastic new $1500/pr ESS stand mount speaker with proprietary new mid bass technology. The system including the amp kicked butt and I'd take the CI Audio Hypex amps in a heartbeat. Blows away the Bel Canto ICE power technology IMO.
Similar to another comment at DIY, Bruno's competitors may be walking around with Bruno voo-doo dolls (joke). Better said: I'd not want to be one of Bruno's competitors in the amp world.
My favorite all-time amps (I gave up on all-tube amps) are:
Aesthetix hybrid monos at 2012 CES powering one of the best speakers I've heard, Vandersteen 5A Carbon (amazing)
ModWright 150SE powering Audiomachina 1st order xo, in cabinets carved from solid aluminum billet (similarly amazing)
Latest Ampzilla monos Mk II, might share quality with above amps but speakers too different to properly judge, TAS Product of the Year Award winner
Linn Chakra Majik 100, analog chip with bipolar transistors at output to boost current
I'll A-B my Ncore with the Ampzilla.
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I've had my share of Class D amps over the years. I've owned amps based on 4 I think different Ice modules from PS Audio, Wyred 4 Sound, Red Dragon, and D-Sonic. I've had Hypex amps based on the UCD180 and 400 modules. I've had ClassDAudio amps, I've had gainclones, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.
I have no idea what the new Ncore stuff sounds like. The other Hypex I've heard however is a bit flat dimensionally, decent depth to the stage but little width ... and no information or sparkle around the edges. And like all the other Class D (except gainclone) just a bit rolled off and lifeless on top.
What I want to say is I have a new Class D amp here for review and can say that it's easily the best Class D I've heard yet, by a long shot. The Diyhifisupply.com gainclone integrated with tube front sounded as good at low volumes, but it's low power, high noise floor, and other quirks keep it from be in the same class.
Drum roll ... that new amp is from D-Sonic. Same manufacturer from which I've bought Ice amps before, and always wanted a bit more out of those amps. However, talking with Dennis there, this is an all new architecture. You'll have to wait for the Stereomojo review to read the details, but the point is it sounds incredible. In my mind, finally a Class D that really can replace reference AB amps. It's about the same price as a pair of those raw Ncore modules btw.
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Turbo,
Thanks.
Which if any CI Audio amp did you own or audition? If none, what was the make/model employing Hypex UCD?
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Turbo,
Thanks.
Which if any CI Audio amp did you own or audition? If none, what was the make/model employing Hypex UCD?
I haven't owned or used at home anything from CI Audio. But I have heard them in other systems and show rooms before. I don't base my opinions though on stuff I've only heard at shows. What I've had here is a Genesis GR180, an AVM C8, and a custom build using the UCD400 and a big torroidal power supply.
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So far, they have not changed a thing. The only commercial manufacturer to use them thus far is Theta -- At $6,000 a channel. Hardly mainstream
As most including you likely know, Theta is serious high-end, not "mainstream" or entry or mid-level.
Ncore DIY model is 200/400/600Wrms @ 8/4/2 Ohms and rated to 2-Ohms if employing one Hypex SMPS600 per channel (or rated to 5 Ohms for one SMPS600 per two amp channels). Hypex offers no volume discount and no OEM support for this DIY amp, so highly unlikely OEM will employ it. It's a special DIY-only product.
OEM get the 1200 amp, 400/800/1200Wrms @ 8/4/2 Ohms with appropriate PS. Also, best I can tell Hypex offers no pre-engineered OEM PS for the 1200 amp, meaning the OEM must supply the PS (obviously the OEM PS affects power/current specs...it could be linear or switching mode).
The Theta amp you mention has a linear PS, not SM (switching mode).
If its that good there is little chance a manufacturer such as Channel Island, PSAudio etc will not step up. This is a perfect product for psaudio to jump back into amps. That said, not sure what the delay is!
I wonder if the Ncore 1200 amp for OEM is priced a bit higher than typical PS Audio products. Not sure about CI Audio but IIRC their 400W amp is moderately costly, so maybe within their market strategy.
Within time California will decertify sale of class A and likely all or most class AB linear amps, and possibly the same for the EU (though the EU deals with other problems currently, such as its future existence).
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Turbo, Bruno says the sound of the Ncore is "no sound at all, just the music" . Just your source.
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Turbo, Bruno says the sound of the Ncore is "no sound at all, just the music" . Just your source.
Haha, that's total marketing talk. Even if it were true you'd never know it unless you're the only person on the planet who has perfect speakers.
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That's probably true to some level, but you should also read the white paper.
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That's probably true to some level, but you should also read the white paper.
I would like to hear one someday ... for now, I'm glad I found out about the new D-Sonic stuff.
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Apparently this guy Bruno is some mathematical wizard and has taken understanding of these circuits to some new level with these.
Honestly I want to hear your speakers! I hope I get to rmaf, it will be my first, like a kid at Disneyland.
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As most including you likely know, Theta is serious high-end, not "mainstream" or entry or mid-level.
Ncore DIY model is 200/400/600Wrms @ 8/4/2 Ohms and rated to 2-Ohms if employing one Hypex SMPS600 weper channel (or rated to 5 Ohms for one SMPS600 per two amp channels). Hypex offers no volume discount and no OEM support for this DIY amp, so highly unlikely OEM will employ it. It's a special DIY-only product.
OEM get the 1200 amp, 400/800/1200Wrms @ 8/4/2 Ohms with appropriate PS. Also, best I can tell Hypex offers no pre-engineered OEM PS for the 1200 amp, meaning the OEM must supply the PS (obviously the OEM PS affects power/current specs...it could be linear or switching mode). ).
I get all that. However the original post implied a seismic shift in the world of amplifiers. If Bruno can be trusted, some got a glimpse of the 1200 a while ago. Someone long enough to develop a linear power supply and develop a whole new product. If its so revolutionary, it certainly seems to be taking its time.
I think that people like class A products because they sound the best, not because they are so massive and energy inefficient.
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Within time California will decertify sale of class A and likely all or most class AB linear amps, and possibly the same for the EU (though the EU deals with other problems currently, such as its future existence).
Really! Big brothers hand gets a little longer! If your willing to pay for the current, why is it big govs business, what I do with it! What a terrible direction we are going.
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Really! Big brothers hand gets a little longer! If your willing to pay for the current, why is it big govs business, what I do with it! What a terrible direction we are going.
This has been an informative thread from the beginning. Let's stay on topic and away from forbidden (politics) discussions. If you haven't done so yet, I suggest you look at the rules for posting here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=37305.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=37305.0)
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I've also heard from trusted sources that the new D-sonic amps are something special.
Great times for class D :D
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Indeed, seems like the heyday of class A and the giant space heater may soon be coming to a close. I missed out on a huge era. My first real amp.is a tripath and then probably to this next.
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I think I'll stick with what Nelson Pass has said and done Been there done that.
People have been saying dig amps are the bomb since 2007 and with every new itineration is another claim to fame.
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Yeah but, this is no longer 2007. :) And each iteration has become better and better since then. Lately you've had the ClassD SDS modules competing at a high level, and now apparently Ncore takes the performance to the very tip top, beating super high end amps. Still want to see more user experiences and reviews, but for me, this tech is very exciting. It seems I will get to experience the full potential of my speakers.
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I think I'll stick with what Nelson Pass has said and done Been there done that.
People have been saying dig amps are the bomb since 2007 and with every new iteration is another claim to fame.
I completely agree. I only wish it didn't take 45 min for his amp to "warm up".
I will try everything. I was attracted to Ncore hype just on the claims on the internet. Hoping it turns into something more.
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What exactly is it you are "hoping" for? The amps are available, you can try one right now if you want (currently sold out, but you can still place an order). The gist I get is if more OEM's don't build expensive amps with the modules, you will be unimpressed somehow. Wierd, I don't get your angle.
The amps are here, available, whether Krell or whoever decides to attach their name or not.
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What exactly is it you are "hoping" for? The amps are available, you can try one right now if you want (currently sold out, but you can still place an order). The gist I get is if more OEM's don't build expensive amps with the modules, you will be unimpressed somehow. Wierd, I don't get your angle.
The amps are here, available, whether Krell or whoever decides to attach their name or not.
The thing is I cannot try one. I cannot buy a 400 due to lack of supply. Which is not an issue as I would want the 1200. Which I cannot buy as I have to wait for some commercial outfit to do it. At this point, it cost me $12,000 to try out two channel! 12k gets you some pretty spiffy amps. I guess I don't understand the marketing\strategy here, or the hype. No angle, just impatient!!!!!
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Haha now that makes much more sense. Which speakers are you running??
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The thing is I cannot try one. I cannot buy a 400 due to lack of supply. Which is not an issue as I would want the 1200. Which I cannot buy as I have to wait for some commercial outfit to do it. At this point, it cost me $12,000 to try out two channel! 12k gets you some pretty spiffy amps. I guess I don't understand the marketing\strategy here, or the hype. No angle, just impatient!!!!!
you need only wait 3 weeks before you can buy an nc400. w/200/400/600w into 8/4/2 ohms, i am not sure why you would insist on wanting the 1200. you will be able to build a pair of 400-based monoblocks for ~$1500-$2k. while certainly not chump change, it seems not an unreasonable amount to spend for these amps if they're anywhere near as good as claimed. and, you would likely be able to re-sell w/o taking much (if any?) loss, if they're not to your liking...
ymmv,
doug s.
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Why are there so many high powered class D amps out there, but only very few small wattage class D amps? If anyone follows the audio reviwers, most of their speakers they rate at the top of the list has a sensitivity of 95DB and higher. You don't even need a 50 watter to drive those speakers loud.
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Why are there so many high powered class D amps out there, but only very few small wattage class D amps? If anyone follows the audio reviwers, most of their speakers they rate at the top of the list has a sensitivity of 95DB and higher. You don't even need a 50 watter to drive those speakers loud.
i must respectfully disagree w/the notion that "most of their speakers they rate at the top of the list has a sensitivity of 95DB and higher." in fact, if you averaged the db rating of "rewiewers top speakers", i wouldn't be surprised if the average rating was 90db or even less.
however... i can't imagine something like the nc400 being unable to drive 99% of these speakers! :lol:
and, class-t amps, which are a class-d derivative, are plentiful, and low power...
doug s.
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I think I'll stick with what Nelson Pass has said and done Been there done that.
People have been saying dig amps are the bomb since 2007 and with every new itineration is another claim to fame.
I happen to know a very famous mastering engineer who switched from a Pass amp to some based on the original Hypex modules. I can tell you that they sound excellent. And Bruno is kind of the godfather of good class D technology. If someone is gonna improve it even further, he's the man.
Greg
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i must respectfully disagree w/the notion that "most of their speakers they rate at the top of the list has a sensitivity of 95DB and higher." in fact, if you averaged the db rating of "rewiewers top speakers", i wouldn't be surprised if the average rating was 90db or even less.
however... i can't imagine something like the nc400 being unable to drive 99% of these speakers! :lol:
and, class-t amps, which are a class-d derivative, are plentiful, and low power...
doug s.
Just curious. I have been playing around with the 32 watt TBI Millenia Class D amp on a 24V battery system. And even on 92DB speakers, this amp will blow my ears off. I believe more companies should follow this path. DC driven always sounds better than AC driven.
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Bruno is kind of the godfather of good class D technology. If someone is gonna improve it even further, he's the man.
I wonder if he was looking over his shoulder to Canada and Anthem, or is it the other way around. Anthem has developed a high powered Class D, but the price is high if for only one amp at around $3,700.00 I believe.
http://www.anthemav.com/products/anthem-statement/amplifier/m1-monaural/m1-monaural-amplifier
Rocket_Ronny
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I wonder if he was looking over his shoulder to Canada and Anthem, or is it the other way around. Anthem has developed a high powered Class D, but the price is high if for only one amp at around $3,700.00 I believe.
Too rich for my blood, but if I was shopping in that high-class neighborhood (Bryston 2 X 7B-SST2 @ $10,200, 2 X 28B-SST2 @ $19,200, etc.), I would certainly want to at least audition them.
I also like the compact size and weight and idle power consumption at just over 60W compared to > 400W. But I would worry if 2,400W @ 3 Ohms was enough juice!
Steve
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58275)
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Nice pict.
I wonder if someone could correct me on the price of the Anthem? Anyone know the street price? Or more importantly, anyone hear the thing?
Rocket_Ronny
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My hope is that JTWrace is silent right now because he's too busy with his soldering gun :green:
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(http://www.tnt-audio.com/jpg/tbi_millenia_rear.jpg)
This is the back of the TBI Millenia. You can see that you can use 24V AC or DC to get the 32 watts per channel. You can even use 8AA batteries and get 8 watts per channel. This amp will sound great on AC, but is at least 40% better on DC.
I wished that Bruno would make a Hypex that would run on batteries.
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My hope is that JTWrace is silent right now because he's too busy with his soldering gun :green:
He currently has his Claytons for sale...
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I'd love to get my paws on a set of these... http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html
Martin
Those are nice. I should have went to sleep last night, but after I started reading all the blogs on these Hypex module amps, I could not stop. Some buyers says it beats their OTL amps. Could this be the Class D amp that ends all tube and Class A amps?
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I listened to all the hype in 2007 ,, so I bought into it,,, my bad I used my emotions instead of brain ,, the lesson I learned the hard way was listen first.
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Ncore enclosures are available on my website. If someone is interested in a free build send me a pm.
Thanks,
Robert
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Nice enlosure. Hopefully Ncore module availability will catch up with the initial demand.
Steve
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This amp will sound great on AC, but is at least 40% better on DC.
Just curious, how did you come to this conclusion?
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I listened to all the hype in 2007 ,, so I bought into it,,, my bad I used my emotions instead of brain ,, the lesson I learned the hard way was listen first.
Tell us more please Bummrush.
What Hype and what Hypex?
What sound did it have, and what can you compare it to?
Rocket_Ronny
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Just curious, how did you come to this conclusion?
By hooking it up to the battery and listening. A friend of mine tried it on his system and he thought it was a bigger improvement than 40%. It depends on how revealing the system is.
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This is the back of the TBI Millenia. You can see that you can use 24V AC or DC to get the 32 watts per channel. You can even use 8AA batteries and get 8 watts per channel. This amp will sound great on AC, but is at least 40% better on DC.
Nice amp. Would love to hear it on a good mid-to-high-sensitivity speaker. I fully support battery use for any purpose, and support proper battery disposal.
All non-functioning amps sound the same (i.e. discharged batteries). 32W is of no practical use in many if not most applications (I need 200Wrms @ 4 Ohms minimum). What is your amp's power spec when the batteries are half-discharged? How do you monitor battery current?
Lastly, the better the quality/the less hash on the AC power supply the less will batteries improve performance. Escrow closed on this new-never-before-occupied single family north Utah residence December 2006 (gated community started early 2000s, about 130 residences, most detached single-family buildings). The sound quality never changes here, a far cray from my last residence in CA where it changed by the hour.
I wished that Bruno would make a Hypex that would run on batteries.
I think he does. Buy the Ncore and make your own power supply. Bring a Prius battery pack for 600W @ 2 Ohms, less battery current = less power. I think Bruno published all relevant power supply requirements.
Let us know how it sounds! :)
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Bumrush, before you continue to go off half cocked you really should actually read the white paper, the tech pda's, and the diyaudio thread, the 6moons preview, and consider the posts in this thread here, and consider who wrote them. This one does not appear to be your run of the mill '07 digital amp.
"In Those Days (an inexpensive game changer amp shall come and) There Shall Be Weeping And Gnashing Teeth" - Revelations
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I listened to all the hype in 2007 ,, so I bought into it,,, my bad I used my emotions instead of brain ,, the lesson I learned the hard way was listen first.
I'm anxious to learn of anyone who had speakers well suited to 60W OTL and who owned 60W OTL and Clayton amps and replaced them with circa 07 digital amps. Really anxious. Two such OTL owners (one also owns Clayton pure class A linear) replaced them with Ncore. Clayton and OTL powering suitable load are not run of the mill amps by any metric.
What are the absolutely best performing linear amps you've owned, auditioned at home, or auditioned carefully enough to make valid conclusions?
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Having owned an early generation digital amp and now playing with a very inexpensive digital amp based upon the latest ICE module, it is very clear that significant progress has been made. Reading reviews of amps with the previous and current ICE modules, it appears that this latest ICE iteration has addressed previous concerns/dislikes.
I'd love to hear the Ncore too. The designer's opinion that it just amplifies is exactly what I have been thinking about the new ICE. Perhaps one difference is that the Ncore folks don't think the module needs tweaking with input stages and the like, whereas it seems most serious amp designers seem to add such "enhancements" to the ICE.
Phil
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The good news for oems and <$1000 amp.builders is that the nc400 is DIY. The foreseeable impact should be small enough to maneuver through.
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By hooking it up to the battery and listening. A friend of mine tried it on his system and he thought it was a bigger improvement than 40%. It depends on how revealing the system is.
I realize you can hear the difference,the percentage number is what I'm wondering about. How does one go about figuring a percentage of how better something sounds over something else? Like I said before, I'm just curious. :scratch:
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He was referring to a different amp that he just got
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Had a B C int and Red Dragon Mini's 2007 amps
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I realize you can hear the difference,the percentage number is what I'm wondering about. How does one go about figuring a percentage of how better something sounds over something else? Like I said before, I'm just curious. :scratch:
Now I am curious, how long have you been in the audio world? You have never heard of a percentage better between two components? I have been hearing that remark from other audiophiles for the last 30+ years. Maybe I am just from the old school.
Actually, I was just being conservative on the 40% figure. My friend that borrowed my amp thought I was BS'ing him on this high of a figure. He tried the amp on his Tonian's and he thought the amp was bigger than a 40% improvement on DC. The other day, he even told me that this syatem beats his modified stack Quads with the NYAL OTL tube amps. My buddy Rex said he now hears the singer lick or smack their lips in between verses, I do too. Rex said for his first time, this amp pinpoints individual instruments in the soundfield instead of smearing them. Hmmm, sounds like he is talking about how good that everyone is saying about the Hypex.
This TBI amp sounds very good on AC, but when you hear just the first note of music powered by DC, the improvement is not a slight one, it slaps you in the face. I would call that at least a 40% improvement, give or take 10%. Rex calls it a 50% improvement over AC.
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Im with you Tom, I'm going to try and find out what they say about battery PS for Ncore.
gonna take a lot of big batteries for these though!
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Now I am curious, how long have you been in the audio world? You have never heard of a percentage better between two components? I have been hearing that remark from other audiophiles for the last 30+ years. Maybe I am just from the old school.
I have heard people say it myself, but I could never make anymore sense of it than I do when I am told "Component A 'smoked', 'buried' or 'blew the doors off' Component B". When someone tells something is 40% better, I can't help but automatically think "+ or - 40%"!
But your actual descriptions of differences in sound attributes in your last post is something that people can relate to. Many things are just not quantifiable with a numerical value, including sound, food, wine or sex, regardless of a tolerance range of error.
Steve
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Im with you Tom, I'm going to try and find out what they say about battery PS for Ncore.
gonna take a lot of big batteries for these though!
I posted this question this morning on Bruno's DIY thread. This is his quote.
"There are no plans in that direction. We have been entertaining the idea of an upconverter for car use for quite some time now but all I can say is that it's been quiet on that front for a few years now."
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Not a worry then, because it looks like the PS had a lot of effort put into it. If the amp as is is already besting expensive gear... Think just plug and play in this case.
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Not a worry then, because it looks like the PS had a lot of effort put into it. If the amp as is is already besting expensive gear... Think just plug and play in this case.
It still would sound better on batteries, at least 10-20%. Maybe I can hunt down someone that can make a battery power supply for the Hypex.
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still... unmeasurable distortion, etc. Wonder if power matters as much considering all the tech in the PS. Read the tech PDA and Bruno's comments on it, seems very high tech.
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still... unmeasurable distortion, etc. Wonder if power matters as much considering all the tech in the PS. Read the tech PDA and Bruno's comments on it, seems very high tech.
The Hypex maybe unmeasurable, but have you checked the distortion ratings on your loudspeakers?
What? 10-20%?
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An experiment with a battery would be interesting.
I'm listening to the amazing, little ICE 125asx2 with NO power conditioning (except separate dedicated line; my sources are conditioned by an equitech which is fed by a separate dedicated line) right now. An inexpensive implementation with very inexpensive connectors, etc. Total cost was $300 shipped.
This stereo version is at the very low end of what my speakers are rated to need. And this thing rocks in every respect (dynamic, great tone, full, etc.). Really. This makes me VERY curious about the Ncore. If the Ncore's cost vs ICE is an indication, and it might not be of course, you might be able to just plug and play the Ncore an never look back.
Phil
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Tom I meant in terms ofna battery being beneficial.
- Phil I did come across the term "end of the road amp" quite a few times in all that reading.
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Now I am curious, how long have you been in the audio world? You have never heard of a percentage better between two components? I have been hearing that remark from other audiophiles for the last 30+ years. Maybe I am just from the old school.
Actually, I was just being conservative on the 40% figure. My friend that borrowed my amp thought I was BS'ing him on this high of a figure. He tried the amp on his Tonian's and he thought the amp was bigger than a 40% improvement on DC. The other day, he even told me that this syatem beats his modified stack Quads with the NYAL OTL tube amps. My buddy Rex said he now hears the singer lick or smack their lips in between verses, I do too. Rex said for his first time, this amp pinpoints individual instruments in the soundfield instead of smearing them. Hmmm, sounds like he is talking about how good that everyone is saying about the Hypex.
This TBI amp sounds very good on AC, but when you hear just the first note of music powered by DC, the improvement is not a slight one, it slaps you in the face. I would call that at least a 40% improvement, give or take 10%. Rex calls it a 50% improvement over AC.
Yes, I've heard people say things like this before, I've just never been able to figure out how one comes up with these percentage numbers. Oh well, I guess it's just one of life's mysteries that will forever be unknown to me !!!! Anyway, I'm glad when someone is happy with the sound their equipment is providing them. BTW, I've been in this hobby 30+ years so it's not an old school/new school thing.
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The Hypex maybe unmeasurable, but have you checked the distortion ratings on your loudspeakers?
What? 10-20%?
Highest distortion in speakers is in the bass range. It's interesting (and helpful for audiophiles) that human sensitivity to distortion in the bass range is extremely low (inverse for the midrange). IIRC humans can barely detect the difference between 1 and 30% THD in the bass range.
Modal effects are another story entirely. Swings from -12 dB to +12 dB in the bass range are not uncommon and very audible. But even worse and more audible is the effect on timing. Modal effects can multiply by two or three x's the bass note's original value, destroying the music's flow and rhythm, which is its foundation.
Modal effects explain why audiophiles sometimes prefer reproduced music without deep bass.
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(http://www.avhub.com.au/images/stories/australian-hifi/news/CES_2012/theta_prometheus_webside.jpg)
Here is the first commercially produced Hypex-based Ncore amps, due out in April. This is Theta's very first Class D amp, called the Prometheus . Only $12,000 a pair. But if I win the lottery, I would surely buy these.
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Drats, I was right there in the Theta room at CES looking right at that exact amp in the photo (so it appears) sitting right in front of the doorway. I would love to have spoken to someone at Theta about it. First heard of Ncore after CES.
Ditto, three of these would rocket to the top of my personal assistant's shopping list if I won the lottery. Yeah, I might make do somehow with a measly 1200Wrms @ 2 Ohms...maybe.
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Reading this thread reminded me (and if I had a need for such a beast, I probably would have pulled the trigger myself by now), I didn't see that Gary Dodd had got this gem sold:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=101246.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=101246.0)
I know the N400 has matching power supplies built for it by Hypex, but I can't see someone going wrong with a Dodd balanced power supply built like that tank. :thumb:
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Reading this thread reminded me (and if I had a need for such a beast, I probably would have pulled the trigger myself by now), I didn't see that Gary Dodd had got this gem sold:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=101246.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=101246.0)
I know the N400 has matching power supplies built for it by Hypex, but I can't see someone going wrong with a Dodd balanced power supply built like that tank. :thumb:
But that is with the UCD modules which many says does not compare with the new ncore modules.
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the new Ucd's will have some of the ncore feature set. Ncore is the premier amp.
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But that is with the UCD modules which many says does not compare with the new ncore modules.
Sorry, I guess I meant to qualify that with some of the thoughts in that thread. For the cash, picking up that amp for the casework and power supply, parting out the old modules, and strapping in the ncore modules. . . :green:
. . . but I really don't know if it would be that simple. . . mileage varies with me in regards to DIY endeavors. . . :lol:
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mileage varies with me in regards to DIY endeavors. . . :lol:
Ditto! Audio quote of the millennium!
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Not sure if this one has been posted or not, found this review, translated with Bing.
With pictures:
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.htforum.nl%2Fyabbse%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D115205.0
I know they are relatively very lightweight, so I was surprised by their larger than expected size in these shots.
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(http://www.avhub.com.au/images/stories/australian-hifi/news/CES_2012/theta_prometheus_webside.jpg)
Stopped and actually looked at this picture. Those are really nice looking. So this company has never done a Class d amp before, huh? And here it is.
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That Theta amp looks like a fancy toaster! Mine only makes two pieces at a time, this one looks like it makes 4. The slots are big enough for bagels! :thumb:
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Jack, I think you need to eat more toast.
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Although it doesn't make it sound any better, I do like the look of a simple 1/4" to 3/8" thick flat aluminum front panel on an amplifier. But on these, I would imagine you are probably sinking > $1,000 into aluminum clothes. Each.
I would like to see the inside as I'm curious what the [big and beefy?] linear power supply looks like, though.
Steve
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I know they are relatively very lightweight, so I was surprised by their larger than expected size in these shots.
I think the apparent size is an illusion - it is simply close to the camera. The scale can be judged by looking at the size of the connectors on the back, more clearly seen here: http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html
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Only $12,000 a pair.
I wrote Bruno about the possibility of buying NC1200 modules, or the demo units, and he replied, "For the time being the NC1200 is being kept off the DIY market in order not to cause a perception that we're competing with our own customers (who sell finished products based on the NC1200)." I understand and accept his decision. It's a free economy and I support capitalism 100%.
Then again I'm cheap. I wouldn't spend $12k on a pair of NC1200 based monoblocks just like I would not spend $6k on a pair of B&O ICEpower 1000ASP based monoblocks. With the 1000ASP you could get a pair for under $2k from sources like D-Sonic and Red Dragon. I purchased a pair of modules for $630 and built a pair of monoblocks for just under $1200. I love the sound of my amps.
I'll wait for less expensive implementations or until the NC1200 is offered to the DIY crowd, either directly or surreptitiously.
Martin
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It still would sound better on batteries, at least 10-20%. Maybe I can hunt down someone that can make a battery power supply for the Hypex.
I'm running a pair of Hypex UCD180s off SLA batteries. I use four 12v 10ah batteries configured for +/- 24vdc rails. It actually puts out +/- 27vdc. The spec sheet states that +/- 30vdc is the minimum but this works and actually sounds better than when I tried it with +/-36vdc (six 12v SLAs). Go figure. I'm probably only getting 60wpc into 8ohms instead of 90, but that's enough for my Zu's.
It sounds really nice this way. It is the most "relaxing" amp I've had in my system, but not in the sense of sounding laid back or recessed. It sounds very fast, clean and resolving. But when I play music through this amp, I relax and I can feel the tension drain from my body. I've never had another component do that for me. It's a strange phenomena that I'm not sure I can explain beyond that.
Russ
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(http://www.tnt-audio.com/jpg/tbi_millenia_rear.jpg)
This is the back of the TBI Millenia. You can see that you can use 24V AC or DC to get the 32 watts per channel. You can even use 8AA batteries and get 8 watts per channel. This amp will sound great on AC, but is at least 40% better on DC.
I wished that Bruno would make a Hypex that would run on batteries.
Tom, what power supply is being used with the TBI? I'm thinking of picking one up.
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That Theta amp looks like a fancy toaster! Mine only makes two pieces at a time, this one looks like it makes 4. The slots are big enough for bagels! :thumb:
Remote "darkness" control, direct via user-implanted chip...receives current from scalp-implanted solar cell... One Theta user said the toaster is exceptionally quiet, even on darkest setting...my favorite Pop Tart flavor is..................................... .cherry!
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I'm running a pair of Hypex UCD180s off SLA batteries. I use four 12v 10ah batteries configured for +/- 24vdc rails. It actually puts out +/- 27vdc. The spec sheet states that +/- 30vdc is the minimum but this works and actually sounds better than when I tried it with +/-36vdc (six 12v SLAs). Go figure. I'm probably only getting 60wpc into 8ohms instead of 90, but that's enough for my Zu's.
It sounds really nice this way. It is the most "relaxing" amp I've had in my system, but not in the sense of sounding laid back or recessed. It sounds very fast, clean and resolving. But when I play music through this amp, I relax and I can feel the tension drain from my body. I've never had another component do that for me. It's a strange phenomena that I'm not sure I can explain beyond that.
Russ
have you tried running the amps w/lab-grade dc power supplies? search on ebay, and you will find hundreds of these; either brand-new from china, or used from usa; such as hp, lambda, bk-precision, etc...
doug s.
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It will be interesting if someone tries to get batteries to work and compare. I've got a few things on my plate before I can step up to these.
.. I'm really excited to be able to run my speakers completely full range with these amps. My current amp I have hipassed just because it's a lot better this way, but there won't be the same limitations with the ncores. Can't wait to have some real power/control to play with.
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.. I'm really excited to be able to run my speakers completely full range with these amps. My current amp I have hipassed just because it's a lot better this way, but there won't be the same limitations with the ncores.
Most people high-pass speakers so that the speaker doesn't have to reproduce deep bass and therefore can run with less distortion, clearer midrange and higher SPL, not because the amplifier can't handle it or will sound better.
Steve
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True, but my speakers used to be quite constrained in this area and needed the high pass. Now I'm stuck with it even though the bass quality is much improved post mod. I should have mentioned that.
They only go to 50hz or so but would sound great with a little more force at the bottom from a more robust amp.
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It will be interesting if someone tries to get batteries to work and compare. I've got a few things on my plate before I can step up to these.
.. I'm really excited to be able to run my speakers completely full range with these amps. My current amp I have hipassed just because it's a lot better this way, but there won't be the same limitations with the ncores. Can't wait to have some real power/control to play with.
According to the link you provided earlier, in which Bruno Putzeys says this about the power requirements:
The same voltage as the NC1200 runs on 700 (roughly +/-90V). The NC400 runs on the same UcD400, but the security is panning as what more precisely so that I now sit at 72V. The NC400 also has a bunch of irregular power supplies of +/-16 a +/-25V needed for the input buffer. You can continue with an external VDR (15 a 20V referred to the negative voltage, same system as the UcD700) a three watt knockout.
- battery powering would be a challenge, both from the point of view of providing ±72-90v and providing multiple other voltages for different stages. I'm no engineer, but this does look daunting - much as I am attracted to the idea both of DC power and the huge amperage reserves promised by lead acid batteries (and capacitors).
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Yeah, not really worried. The amp seems capable of plenty with the "stock" supply :icon_lol:
I do love my battery PS on my amp, but I've also never listened to top top drawer ac amps either.
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You might want to hurry and order if you want a Ncore on the 11th week. I see many others on DIY buying them. One from the Netherlands said he bought five Ncores with five power supplies last night.
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This all reminds me of the high hopes when digital amps came on the scene. A lot of people were talking about the death of conventional amps. After living with these digital amps most seemed to ditch them for Class A or Class A/B. While this holds much more promise we will have to see how it pans out.
Rocket_Ronny
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Ronny, it's panning now. Many (did not count) new user reports in the same DIY thread in the last 24 hours...burned up a lot of the day reading. No marginal reviews yet. Users have the highest level of expertise, no beginners, reviewed in studio with well known master recordings, etc.
Again, I never read of anyone with earlier class D replacing the amps owned by and replaced by Ncore now. I'm glad I don't have a costly amp!
Unfortunately not much local audiophile presence here beyond Duke LeJeune, and the only studio I like employs active monitors.
I'll compare mine to the superb AKSA Naksa 100 (here now) and Ampzilla MkII (TAS Product of the Year) late April. The Naksa 100 is killer.
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Thanks James.
Maybe the Hypex might live up to the Hype, long term. If so, sure will be a game changer, although tube junkies will have a hard time flipping.
Rocket_are those tubes on - yeah_Ronny
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Remote "darkness" control, direct via user-implanted chip...receives current from scalp-implanted solar cell...
I use two of those small gel cell 12V batteries that sells on Amazon fairly cheap. Get a 24V smart slow battery cgarger to usem but make sure you don't leave the charger hooked up while playing music, it blows out the 4amp fuse. I guess that is more than 24V. When I play music for background music, I use AC, for seriously listening, I use DC.
Another small improvement is use Moongel drum pads under the amp, that gives a little better focus. The pads can be had on Ebay for $6.95 for a set of four, including shipping. My buddy and I compared these to a lot of different isolation feet, including Stillpoints, and these came out on top. This is the cheapest improve,ent you can make in your system that I know of.
They should work nicely under the Hypex Ncore amps also.
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Thanks James.
Maybe the Hypex might live up to the Hype, long term. If so, sure will be a game changer, although tube junkies will have a hard time flipping.
Rocket_are those tubes on - yeah_Ronny
I don't envy the people with mega dollar tube amps right now. There will be denial and backlash.
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regarding the p/s for the nc400, from what i could make from the smps600's data sheet, is that it outputs a max of 74v and a max of 0.5a. (but it also says "max output short-circuit current = 7a" - not sure what this means?) and, another issue that is confusing to me, is that the specs on the 600 reference typical 230vac euro power - not sure what the deal is w/120vac power.
link for datasheet: http://www.hypex.nl/docs/SMPS600_Datasheet.pdf
can anyone enlighten me as to what min woltage/amperage requirements, (i.e.: at least equal to the smps600), would be required to drive the nc400 w/a lab-grade dc power supply?
thanks,
doug s.
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I don't envy the people with mega dollar tube amps right now. There will be denial and backlash.
So when you get yours, can I try them?
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Bruno and this Ncore thing has ruined almost a whole week for me! But at least there appears to be a light at the end of the amplifier tunnel.
Still looking for one chassis for 3x NC400 amps and 3x SMPS600 in case you trip over one.
I don't know about you guys, but I've been troubled about amps my entire audio life more than any other component, far more than speakers, sources, etc. Possible exception is solving bass mode issues, but that's been well fixed for me for some time.
Problem is I have personal experience with some of the best amps extant...two favorites I left out earlier are Mark Levinson by Harman, and Krell Evo. As reported earlier, I heard (for the first time, both amps) at 2012 CES the ModWright 150SE (insanely good on Audiomachina speakers) and the Aesthetix hybrid monos (also met the designer, very nice guy) powering one of the best speakers in the world, the Vandersteen 5A Carbon.
Once you get tuned in to the difference, it's hard to go back. If the Ncore gets you moderately close to the above performance, as mentioned, go "short" on used high-end amps.
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Bruno and this Ncore thing has ruined almost a whole week for me! But at least there appears to be a light at the end of the amplifier tunnel.
Still looking for one chassis for 3x NC400 amps and 3x SMPS600 in case you trip over one.
So are you running the Ncores in your system now? I noticed a few on DIY was buying their chassis's from this place in the UK, even Americans.
http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/cat147_l2.php?n=1#6
You might also look on Ebay and find a broken amp cheap to get a chassis.
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No...coming! A friend visits the Netherlands now and may pick them up.
Thanks for the chassis tip, sweet.
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You might also look on Ebay and find a broken amp cheap to get a chassis.
Ha, I tried that for a pair of the ICE 125ASX2s I have. Got the "for parts only" amp and it worked perfectly. The seller had it set to turn on with a trigger which I switched to normal. Can't see scrapping a perfectly good amp.
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So when you get yours, can I try them?
I dont think anyone will see me for a few days when that happens. You guys will of course.
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doug,from the NC 400 datasheet I downloaded from the Hypex website the minimum rail voltage recommended is 35volts and the maximum is 75volts. Your supply should be between these upper and lower limits and be capable of suppling 24 amps continuously. Here is the link http://www.hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_weblinks&view=weblink&id=106&catid=42
Scotty
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I don't envy the people with mega dollar tube amps right now. There will be denial and backlash.
Why? Do you work for Hypex? It sounds like you do.
-Jim
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I wish! Then I wouldn't have to wait.
Just seems logical to me is all. Already had a bit of it here in this thread.
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doug,from the NC 400 datasheet I downloaded from the Hypex website the minimum rail voltage recommended is 35volts and the maximum is 75volts. Your supply should be between these upper and lower limits and be capable of supplying 24 amps continuously. Here is the link http://www.hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_weblinks&view=weblink&id=106&catid=42
Scotty
scotty, i have seen that. but, the 24a indicated (sec 4) is the amp's output, not its input. in sec 5, its signal stage supply current is shown as only 40ma, and its drive supply current is shown as only 70ma. and, according to the recommended scms600 p/s specs, (link posted earlier), the scms600 outputs nowhere near that current - 0.5a/rail; and max 7a output short-circuit current, rail-to-rail. (not sure what that means...) also, it talks about euro woltages from 180-264; typ 230vac... so, i am a bit confused, not being an ee... :scratch: :lol:
doug s.
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Doug, those uncertainties are the reason I would build a nice noise free linear power supply with about an 800 watt toroid and some Jensen 4 pole caps, 10,000 uF 80volts. A $60 Par-Metal case and you're home free.
The biggest bite comes from the $78 apiece cost of the Jensen power supply caps.
Scotty
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Why? Do you work for Hypex? It sounds like you do.
-Jim
Per the DIY thread owners of:
Atma-Sphere 60W OTL (appropriate speaker load), same user owns Clayton SS pure class A
Another A-S OTL owner (forgot model, ditto appropriate speaker load)
Accuphase
Other nice makes/models
...prefer their new Ncore not by small margins.
Maybe every single new Ncore owner will keep their previous amp(s). It would not be a huge surprise if some new Ncore user sells an amp he used prior.
My closest relationship to Hypex is I'm of Dutch descent as is Bruno Putzeys (he likely higher percentage than myself).
My friend in the Netherlands now just purchased a Dutch Tent Labs amp, single tube input per channel, transformer coupling, earlier Hypex output. In direct A-B he said it's "30-40%" better than the Australian Aksa NAKSA 100 now in my possession, one of the best amps I've heard.
Good designs coming from the Netherlands.
Just to put some focus on the difference an amp makes, which I'm sure most readers already know. My $90 Dynaudio Esotec domes are decent tweeters, though there are definitely better. The only thing between the domes and the amp is a Dueland resistor and a killer paper-in-oil capacitor.
Among other improvements, the NAKSA 100 makes the treble sound more than 100% better than the YBA. The upgrade just sounds like a completely different system.
After bass modes are solved (unless you settle for no deep bass, which is completely fine and often the case) and your source is ironed out, I think many users upgrade speakers way before the preamp/amp should have been replaced. With an inferior amp you have no idea what the speakers are capable of.
My 2c.
[/list][/list][/list]
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see? It's hard to not be excited for these. I always assumed this class of amp would be beyond me. I was gearing up to spend around 2k for a used tube amp and even that, for me, would have been a lot of money.. And still not top performance. Yet now, cake. Bruno says have some cake.
I might just do these first, screw subs.
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My closest relationship to Hypex is I'm of Dutch descent as is Bruno Putzeys (he likely higher percentage than myself).
I thought Bruno's hometown was Leuven in Belgium. :scratch:
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Still looking for one chassis for 3x NC400 amps and 3x SMPS600 in case you trip over one.
Once you get tuned in to the difference, it's hard to go back. If the Ncore gets you moderately close to the above performance, as mentioned, go "short" on used high-end amps.
Are you looking for a dual chassis 3 channel amp with separate power supply ? I like the sound of that. Want to make two!?
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I might just do these first, screw subs.
Look at what everyone is saying about the bass on DIY.
Get the amps first.
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So are you running the Ncores in your system now? I noticed a few on DIY was buying their chassis's from this place in the UK, even Americans.
http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/cat147_l2.php?n=1#6
Actually Modu Shop is in Italy. I purchased a pair of their Galaxy Maggiorato 230mm x 280mm to house my ICEpower amps. Really nice stuff. I sent the front, rear and bottom panels to Front Panel Express for machining.
Martin
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Stop the press!
One DIY'er is complanig about a coldness and dryness in the sound with the new Hypex Ncores. He likes the more holographic and detailed part, but not the coldness. That sounds typical of class D amps. I still say you need to get that Ncore on a battery system if possible.
I will watch and see if he can correct that.
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Tom, I saw that post as well. You can see his latest post below and on the DIY thread. As the poster noted below, if your current amp is colored the NCORES will sound "dry" initially and it will take a day or two to adjust. I have the NCORES and have posted my impressions on the DIY thread.
Regarding power, Bruno, the NCORE designer, has posted that the NCOREs are pretty insensitive to the power supply. What leads you to believe they would sound better on a battery?
Originally Posted by arend-jan
Or more likely the sound of the Vecteur..
When you are accustomed to listening to a colored device (whichever device it is) your hearing adjusts to it. For example if you listen to speakers with a deep notch somewhere in the frequency band and then switch to a pair of flat neutral speakers, the latter will be perceived as having too much energy at the frequency where the notch previously was.
What I'd propose is to listen to the ncore amplifiers for a couple of days then switch back to the Vecteur for comparison. Give your ears some time to make the switch.
I think you guys are right. The sound keeps getting better by the hour. But the vecteur is a great amp. Here's the only current review i can find. It is a 10 year old amp.
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The power supply caps have to break in at the very least. I would discount any reports of this kind of problem unless they come from someone who has had the amps on 24/7 for at least 2 weeks.
If the amps are any good at all they are going to tell you what is going on upstream of them.
Users may have to re-think their systems composition because it reveals the less than perfect nature of something in the chain ahead of the amp.
Don't shoot the messenger for being a GIGO device.
Scotty
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I thought Bruno's hometown was Leuven in Belgium. :scratch:
Then I was sadly mistaken, for which I apologize! Where's Perry Mason, Della Street, and Paul Drake when we need them?
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Are you looking for a dual chassis 3 channel amp with separate power supply ? I like the sound of that. Want to make two!?
How kind of you to reply.
In a word, no. I read about as much as I can and still eat, sleep, exercise, etc...my best guess is not much if any advantage with separate PS, but as always open to different opinions.
So still thinking single chassis for 3x Ncore, 3x SMPS600. So far, myself and two others (three total) want such an amp, all of us Trinaural nuts. I would certainly think others would like such an amp for HT and combo HT/music systems.
So if someone trips over a nice new commercial chassis not too much larger than minimum required, let me know. I propose to have a local CNC shop set it up and offer the chassis for minimal markup on an ongoing basis. Local pro labor rates are generally about 1/2 here in north Utah vs. metro rates in CA where I previously lived.
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.....
So if someone trips over a nice new commercial chassis not too much larger than minimum required, let me know. I propose to have a local CNC shop set it up and offer the chassis for minimal markup on an ongoing basis. Local pro labor rates are generally about 1/2 here in north Utah vs. metro rates in CA where I previously lived.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/siliconray-online-electronics-store/206613-some-enclosures-chasises-we-made-6.html#post2916144
It has a link to the commercial site
FWIW
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Sorry for sounding so skeptical, I am hoping this is a full breakthrough in amp design. I have been in this hobby for 40 years, heard many claims of superiority, only to be disappointed.
40+ year old Futtermans sounds better than the majority of amps, includding Class D, that are being made today. I am ready for a change.
Hey earflapping, how about a review on AC with some pics of your amps. The DIY forum is so full of posts, it is hard to read everything.
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So if someone trips over a nice new commercial chassis not too much larger than minimum required, let me know.
Width: 88mm x 3 = 264mm. Depth: 88mm + 140mm = 228mm. The 330mm wide x 280mm deep x 80mm high Galaxy Maggiorato (http://www.modu.it/galaxy.html) is 53€ and should fit 3 NC400 and 3 SMPS600 quite nicely.
Martin
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http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/siliconray-online-electronics-store/206613-some-enclosures-chasises-we-made-6.html#post2916144
It has a link to the commercial site
FWIW
Occam, thanks! Love the rounded corners, good Feng Shui as Debra would say.
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Look at what everyone is saying about the bass on DIY.
Get the amps first.
Yeah, as awesome as my TWO sounds, and it is an excellent amp, especially modded as mine is, my modded speakers are now just crying for more power, I get decently loud enough, but I want the full potential, total clarity and ease at volume, bass, I want everything I know these speakers can give. Power hungry Maggies, you know the story. It's already flipping incredible, but I'm all about the foundation, the music. Subs can come later. Going from about 85 at full power to an easy 400 top spec watts per side, monoblock, seperate supplies, yeah, with the bass and overall SQ I'm already getting.. The Ncores are going to be ridiculous.
Listening to my system, I can already imagine what the Ncore's will bring to the table, and I want THAT.
The TWO will go to my living room and power my monitors.
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Rclark, you're going to be wanting to put that fuse back in the tweeter circuit with 400 watts on tap.
You will be burning that tweeter sooner or later when you rock out at high SPL's.
Scotty
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Oh, I'll make sure to monitor things. I don't expect to go much over 100dB if ever. I'm already at a satisfying listening level, I just want the headroom and capability, and SQ improvements. I don't want to constantly watch for the clip light as I set my volume on different recordings (when I want to be "loud", around mid 80db range max currently).
For those that don't know, Maggies drink up power, it's nothing against my amp. Paired instead with my monitors, the spl can be enough to drive you from the room if you want.
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Per the DIY thread owners of:
Atma-Sphere 60W OTL (appropriate speaker load), same user owns Clayton SS pure class A
Another A-S OTL owner (forgot model, ditto appropriate speaker load)
Accuphase
Other nice makes/models
...prefer their new Ncore not by small margins.
Maybe every single new Ncore owner will keep their previous amp(s). It would not be a huge surprise if some new Ncore user sells an amp he used prior.
My closest relationship to Hypex is I'm of Dutch descent as is Bruno Putzeys (he likely higher percentage than myself).
My friend in the Netherlands now just purchased a Dutch Tent Labs amp, single tube input per channel, transformer coupling, earlier Hypex output. In direct A-B he said it's "30-40%" better than the Australian Aksa NAKSA 100 now in my possession, one of the best amps I've heard.
Good designs coming from the Netherlands.
Just to put some focus on the difference an amp makes, which I'm sure most readers already know. My $90 Dynaudio Esotec domes are decent tweeters, though there are definitely better. The only thing between the domes and the amp is a Dueland resistor and a killer paper-in-oil capacitor.
Among other improvements, the NAKSA 100 makes the treble sound more than 100% better than the YBA. The upgrade just sounds like a completely different system.
After bass modes are solved (unless you settle for no deep bass, which is completely fine and often the case) and your source is ironed out, I think many users upgrade speakers way before the preamp/amp should have been replaced. With an inferior amp you have no idea what the speakers are capable of.
My 2c.
Not sure what any of this means in the context of a response to a quoted piece of text that is not your own.
Thanks though.
-Jim
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Sorry for sounding so skeptical, I am hoping this is a full breakthrough in amp design. I have been in this hobby for 40 years, heard many claims of superiority, only to be disappointed.
40+ year old Futtermans sounds better than the majority of amps, includding Class D, that are being made today. I am ready for a change.
Hey earflapping, how about a review on AC with some pics of your amps. The DIY forum is so full of posts, it is hard to read everything.
Tom, no apologies required.... :D I have been in this hobby/obsession for about the same time and it is good to be skeptical... :scratch: Lots of over hyped products with few living up to their claims.
I am posting my review from another forum at your request. All I can say is it well worthy of an audition in your own system IMHO. In terms of pictures I don't have mine in a chassis yet so there isn't much to look at, but I will try to post something nonetheless. In fact, these things are ridiculously small. The SMSP600 and two NC400's fit on an iPad... :o
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The following is an early review of my new NCORE amps at the request of Tom. I have many more hours on them since I posted this. The only early concern I had about them was whether they would become fatiguing like almost every other Class D amp I have auditioned. I am happy to report they have not. I attribute this to their balanced energy spectrum as I note in the review below.
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I have been a die-hard Class A amp guy – SS and tubes including OTL’s - for decades. I tried a Halcro when they first came out. It may have boasted ultra-low distortion figures, but it was too sterile and thin sounding for my tastes. If this meant I liked an amp with coloration then so be it. Bring on the color.
A few months ago I bought a Class D Audio SDS kit just for kicks based on a friend’s recommendation. Compared to my Class A OTL’s they had better bass articulation, similar midrange, better macro/micro detail, but overall the tonal and energy balance wasn’t right. They sounded “over-caffeinated” and had a glassy, un-natural sounding high frequency, which quickly led to listener fatigue. The amp over exaggerated leading edge transients and truncated the decay. Despite these negatives, I found myself enjoying the SDS for periods of time, but ultimately preferring my Class A OTL’s for their better tonal balance and natural sound.
Within just a few seconds of listening to the nCore I knew they were a game changer. I have listened to probably over 4 hours of various recordings from classical to rock, unamplified to heavily synthesized and poor to excellent recordings.
First, the nCores get the tonal and energy balance right. Gone is the over-emphasis of the attack. Attack and decay sound like live music. There is a harmonic richness of instruments and vocalists, which grabs you. I listen to a lot of live unamplified music, especially piano and the nCores sound much more true to live. Second, the resolving power is phenomenal. Truly. The nCores expose details that I have never heard before on very familiar recordings and it does it with complete and utter effortlessness. One really notices this on complex passages. The size and location of performers and instruments as well as the recording venue are much more accurately rendered. Bass is the best I have ever heard. Lastly, the nCore sounds great at low volume and at even very high volume there is not even a hint of distortion.
Bottom line, I’d have to say the nCore’s live up the Hype(x). A BIG congratulations to Bruno, Jan-Peter and the entire Hypex team as well as a thank you for making this new world class technology available to the DIY market.
Will the nCore’s be everyone’s cup of tea. I’m sure not. You will hear, for perhaps the first time, what the rest of your system and room really sound like and it might not be what floats your boat. If your source is a bit bright and thin you will hear it in all of its glory. For me I have worked very hard to build an accurate end to end playback chain and the nCores are the perfect fit. They are staying.
Lastly, just to put the information in one place a few words about my system. My speakers are Geddes Abbeys a two way, controlled directivity monitor with 12” compression driver loaded waveguide with foam insert and 12” pro woofer. They are 95 db efficient, have extremely flat polar response and are super dynamic. My source is a Metric Halo LIO8 DAC/PRE fed via FireWire from a Mac Mini both powered by custom linear power supplies fed from a PurePower 2000 battery-based regenerator.
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Pics would still be great earflippin. How hard was it to hook up? I have never tried a DIY'er. What size cabinents would you need, if these are so small?
Thanks for the review, earflappin.
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I think it would be neat to go with as tiny a case as possible, for emphasis.
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Here is an update about the DIY'er complaing on his cool and dry sounding Hypex Ncore.
"OK I've solved the problem I had with my sound. It turns out it was my DAC. If anyone's not familer with the Eastern Audio Minimax plus, it is a hybrid DAC using the ESS 9018 DAC chip. You can select from either using the tube output or solid state. There is 2 sets of opamps, one that outputs to both the tube and solid state output, and one that outputs to the dedicated solid state output. I have upgraded both sets of opamps. I upgraded the main opamps with the excellent Burson audio discrete opamps, and the solid state with New class a DEXA discrete opamps. With my Vecteur amp, I preferred the sound of the DEXA SS output. The tube output sounded great, but lacked the dynamics. Now that I'm using the NCores, I prefer the tube output. All of the body and soul that was missing before is back, but better then ever. The sound is pretty much perfect. I now realize the amps are flawless and that if there is any problem with the sound it's coming from the source. Although I have an excellent DAC, it is the weak link in the chain. I'm definately going to have to try some more DAC's with this amp. Once I have the amp fully built into my case, I'll be trying it with a PS Audio Perfectwave MKII. I have a feeling I might end up buying it. "
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58381)
It ain't pretty....but this is my temporary set-up. I am using one SMPS600 (foreground) to power two NC400 modules (the round modules in the background). I have a second SMPS600 coming as I wish to package my NCORES as mono blocks. All the connectors come with the kit so it is dead easy to hook up. You do need to provide your own IEC connector (the SMPS 600 is fused by the way), XLR/RCA connectors and binding posts. You see two sets of speaker cables wired to my NC400's as I am passively bi-wired. Below is a close up of one of the NC400 modules. One SMPS600 and two NC400's will fit on an iPad...that is how small they are.
The entire NC400 is discrete, including the input buffer. No IC's and a crazy low output impedance.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58382)
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Thanks for the pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumb:
That is very small.
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They are!!! Ridiculously small and light. There is no reason they should sound this good.... :lol:
(1) They are Class D. Class D has an un-natural, glossy high end which is fatiguing
(2) They use an SMPS. SMPS are noisy and definitely not audiophile grade
(3) They use tons of feedback. Feedback is BAD, terrible for the sound. Open loop is what real audiophiles use.
(4) They are very small, light, efficient and don't generate much heat. Audiophiles all know an amp sucks if it doesn't weigh a ton and generate enough heat to warm your house.
(5) They don't use tubes. Crazy. Audiophiles know tubes are required to make the music sound good, natural.
:lol:
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Welcome to Hypex' "Class D baptism." :lol:
earflappin,
I know the only answer to the following is in the hearing...but please comment if you feel so inclined...
I'm leaning toward one 3-ch box for Trinaural music system.
Hypothetical. Both below Ncore amps with separate SMPS600, high-quality IC/speaker cable:
Stereo amp, 3' IC, preamp unbalanced output, 10' speaker cable w/ .1 dB maximum signal loss
Mono-blocks, 11' IC, preamp unbalanced output, 3' speaker cable w/ .03 dB maximum signal loss
I appreciate comment on potential audible difference above. For unknown reason I suspect Ncore is less sensitive than regular linear amps in the above applications.
Ncore handles only above 120 Hz on this system. Also appreciate comment on passive 2-way crossover (simple 1st order, high-quality parts) vs. biamp/active xo. I similarly suspect Ncore exhibits less degradation than a regular linear amp powering passive crossovers.
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They are!!! Ridiculously small and light. There is no reason they should sound this good.... :lol:
(1) They are Class D. Class D has an un-natural, glossy high end which is fatiguing
(2) They use an SMPS. SMPS are noisy and definitely not audiophile grade
(3) They use tons of feedback. Feedback is BAD, terrible for the sound. Open loop is what real audiophiles use.
(4) They are very small, light, efficient and don't generate much heat. Audiophiles all know an amp sucks if it doesn't weigh a ton and generate enough heat to warm your house.
(5) They don't use tubes. Crazy. Audiophiles know tubes are required to make the music sound good, natural.
:lol:
I know I had given up on Class D, until I brought in that TBI Millenia integrated amp. I never thought Class D could sound so detailed, yet so natural sounding.
A Hypex is now a must on my list.
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I know I had given up on Class D, until I brought in that TBI Millenia integrated amp. I never thought Class D could sound so detailed, yet so natural sounding.
A Hypex is now a must on my list.
With what dc power supply?
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I'm leaning toward one 3-ch box for Trinaural music system.
It'll be interesting to find out how audible that Trinaural Processor circuitry will be through the extra clarity of the Ncore amps, and whether that will work against the other advantages.
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With what dc power supply?
Even with the AC the sound is great, but DC just supercharges it that much more. This is the review I based my purchase on, and the reviewer never hooked a battery up to it. If he had, he would have been shocked.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/3_mini_amps_e.html
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Tom I think they're saying batteries are pretty much a no go here.
I'm guessing in this situation there would be no improvement. It's tempting to think of these as every other class d amp, but looks like the SMPS is the way to go. I mean, it was designed just for this special amp.
I mean, they're already using the word "flawless" to describe these, right?
From what I'm seeing on DIY there's no real way to "improve" these yet as they just came out. I have a feeling that as they are, different PS's might be a waste of time. Just a guess, no idea.
Wait till you get a set up and running. Definitely exciting stuff though :D
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Lastly, just to put the information in one place a few words about my system. My speakers are Geddes Abbeys a two way, controlled directivity monitor with 12” compression driver loaded waveguide with foam insert and 12” pro woofer. They are 95 db efficient, have extremely flat polar response and are super dynamic. My source is a Metric Halo LIO8 DAC/PRE fed via FireWire from a Mac Mini both powered by custom linear power supplies fed from a PurePower 2000 battery-based regenerator.
It must be reassuring in some fundamental way to know that each of the basic elements of this system - the Metric Halo converter, the amps and the speakers - is based on solid engineering, not hyperbole, and the work of a gifted designer who is ready to answer questions online. Still you have the satisfaction of being near the cutting edge.
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It'll be interesting to find out how audible that Trinaural Processor circuitry will be through the extra clarity of the Ncore amps, and whether that will work against the other advantages.
Good point! I'll compare stereo direct vs. stereo through Trinaural on the Naksa 100 amp tonight, just to know. But the following might be demonstrative of the Trinaural's value, regardless.
Stereo Naksa 100 vs. stereo YBA amp: pointless to list specifics...Naksa infinitely better, like an entirely different system, better throughout the range but the higher up the register the bigger the improvement, estimate treble is more than 100% improved. On the YBA cymbals sound more like FM radio inter-station hash than metal percussion instruments. Naksa 100: pure black between and with the notes. YBA all kinds of noise between and with the notes.
Stereo Naksa 100 vs. Trinaural YBA amp: compared to Trinaural, Naksa stereo center image sounds like what it is, a ghost or phantom artifact from two speakers somewhere else. Trinaural stage and image quality infinitely better, not close. I'd be shocked if anyone would prefer the stereo Naksa 100.
You can see why I want 3x Ncore!
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From the DIY thread:
User discussing low power applications : "If you need only 5-10 watts max output, you should minimize noise with something like a tiny class A circuit with ultra-clean power supplies: maybe something in Nelson Pass's quiver (Aleph?). Really good amps like that are pretty rare, excluding tube amps which are generally sweet with distortion. IMHO, ultra-high-efficiency speakers sacrifice accuracy for color, but I shouldn't start a war here":
Bruno -
"I should add that also at these low powers Ncore has way lower distortion than esoteric circuits purportedly invented specifically to have good low-power behaviour. When some designers (I saw a name flash by just now) claim their amp is "best below 1W" this simply means their amp gets steadily worse above 1W, not that below 1W it does better than any other amp. Of course they want you to think they're saying the latter. This is called the "bait and switch" fallacy. Don't fall for it. "
user: "I retract my Pass-ing fancy! "
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From what I'm seeing on DIY there's no real way to "improve" these yet as they just came out. I have a feeling that as they are, different PS's might be a waste of time. Just a guess, no idea.
Wait till you get a set up and running.
If this Hypex amp does not sound better on batteries, that will be a first. AC coming in your house is horrible, especially during the summer when everyone is running their air, especially during the winter running their heaters.
Do this experiment, rclark. Leaving your system on for 24 hours, then listen to a special song at 5pm, 6pm, 7pm, and so on until 1 or 2am some night. Now only play that one song, and only play it once per hour. I bet by 10 or 11pm, you will notice an improvement, and by 2am, it will sound even more incredible. I don't care what amp you are playing, the AC coming into your house improves as everyone else in town goes to bed.
With batteries, you do not have that problem.
I know, I am a little crazy for doing these tests. Just make sure you don't wake up your neighbors.
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Oh I know! With my Virtue I've got a nice 30v supply, and a big Astron LS-10A linear supply, and the batteries beat them both up.
But I'm guessing that this is different. Look at what is reported already, and it is on AC supply. Either way, I think they're saying batteries are not possible at this time. But again, I'm guessing it doesn't matter, here you have an amp that is making people sell their infinitely more expensive, top of the line class A models.
It appears that the PS/amp combo are not having SQ issues of any sort, quite the opposite.
Budget SOTA is simply now... SOTA.
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I keep reading, but how many audiophiles have ever even experienced the effects of batteries on amps? I would estimate less than 10%.
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I'll put it a step further and postulate that my amp on batts, or anything you own on batts would probably get its clock cleaned ...thoroughly... by these Ncores with the Ncore SMPS from what we have to go by so far.
But again, either way, it's a fruitless conversation as the Ncore will not take batteries without apparently some great effort.
... I think my avatar is subliminally messing with you Tom (AC/DC .. lol) and maybe I should choose another.
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earflappin and others:
are your Ncore amps plugged straight into the wall? I'm curious about the effect of power conditioners and whether they are needed for best sound.
Thanks.
Phil
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I very much like Audience's products. Professional reviewers universally rate their AC conditioners as the best or among the best. Their most costly unit is.......$10k msrp! Yikes!
I intend to run the speaker wire from the amp module inside the chassis, through a hole (with rubber insulator grommet) next to the binding post. The binding post is used as an electro-mechancal junction for the internal speaker wire (tinned) and the speaker wire.
IMO the audible performance equals that resulting from the best, most costly binding posts, such as WBT, which IIRC run about $75/pair.
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jim, why are you wanting to put three channels in one chassis? w/mono blocks, you can put the amps closer to the speakers and have shorter runs of speaker cable.
doug
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Tom, no apologies required.... :D I have been in this hobby/obsession for about the same time and it is good to be skeptical... :scratch: Lots of over hyped products with few living up to their claims.
I am posting my review from another forum at your request. All I can say is it well worthy of an audition in your own system IMHO. In terms of pictures I don't have mine in a chassis yet so there isn't much to look at, but I will try to post something nonetheless. In fact, these things are ridiculously small. The SMSP600 and two NC400's fit on an iPad... :o
Just curious earflappiin, how detailed are the vocals that you are getting
with the Ncores?
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Here ya go boys. They are indeed tiny little things :thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58389)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58390)
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jim, why are you wanting to put three channels in one chassis? w/mono blocks, you can put the amps closer to the speakers and have shorter runs of speaker cable.
doug
With the Trinaural, I agreed with Bongiorno that the center channel was more critical than the L/R, which act like ambiance effects. And the 3-ch amp can site right next to the center channel, same as a mono block.
I was also obsessed with conserving space, what with three speaker channels, each channel has two monitors in a Floyd Toole ambiance array, plus four subs, sub amp, etc.
But a couple days ago I plugged in the Naksa 100 for L/R channels, using only one channel of the YBA for center. Wow! Huge improvement vs. YBA all 3-ch. (Strangely, YBA on the L/R and Naksa 100 on the center had some weird phase effect and was unlistenable.)
So the above experiment seems to prove that even if the L/R are less critical than the center, better performance is better performance. Plus the shame you've heaped on me now! :lol:
Tomorrow I'll make a 11' interconnect (required for the L/R channels) and check the noise level. IC is Stan Warren's ancient recipe, unshielded twisted pair AWG12 19-strand copper THHN house wire.
I need to double check Bruno's recommended connection for unbalanced preamp to the Ncore balanced input, which looked kind of strange but I only glanced at it.
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That's an incredible feat right there alone. Right? I mean are there any other 600 watt, 2ohm stable amps of that size?
Just a few inches across!
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I wonder how Bruno keeps his intellectual property safe making them in China?
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I gotta say that thread over there is a fantastic read. I feel like I've learned quite a lot more about how amps work along the way (with google and wikipedia open for help), and about where I am (page 60 and before) there was a really funny, longish debate going on between Bruno and some Italian competitor who seems quite surprised by the Ncore. I have yet to get to the launch of the NC400 itself or read any of the reviews.
But a fun read.
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Here ya go boys. They are indeed tiny little things :thumb:
So they are about 3 inches across? What's the height?
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I'll put it a step further and postulate that my amp on batts, or anything you own on batts would probably get its clock cleaned ...thoroughly... by these Ncores with the Ncore SMPS from what we have to go by so far.
But again, either way, it's a fruitless conversation as the Ncore will not take batteries without apparently some great effort.
Yup, the only way this TBI amp gets its "clock cleaned", is if the battery goes dead or the fuse blows. I keep reading the posts on the other thread, and no one has commented about the detail that I am getting out of this TBI amp. But I will keep watching and see if someone does. Even my buddy commented on this incredible feat, and together, we have more than 75 years experience in this hobby.
It is a shame to see these Hypex amps are less than 4 inches wide, and a battery cannot drive them. I guess we will probably never know.
rclark, I remeber when you were a skeptic on the battery power supply and your Virtue amp.
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Hey I'm glad you're enjoying your TBI. Me, I'm fairly convinced. Found out they work very well with planars, so not much to worry about here. I hope your TBI on batteries beats the Ncore, then you will be vindicated :D
And yeah, I was a skeptic, but what I am saying is I think that the sonics of the Ncore are probably so good, and the SMPS made for it is probably so good, that swapping power supplies, in this case, might give marginal improvements, if at all. That's just my simple hunch, that's all.
You think it will make a huge difference. If you get the Ncore, make sure to figure out how to get a battery kit to work well, compare it to the SMPS, and let us know how it goes!
Hey, if there ends up being an even better PS solution for it, I'd be all ears unless it was stupidly expensive.
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How kind of you to reply.
In a word, no. I read about as much as I can and still eat, sleep, exercise, etc...my best guess is not much if any advantage with separate PS, but as always open to different opinions.
So still thinking single chassis for 3x Ncore, 3x SMPS600. So far, myself and two others (three total) want such an amp, all of us Trinaural nuts. I would certainly think others would like such an amp for HT and combo HT/music systems.
So if someone trips over a nice new commercial chassis not too much larger than minimum required, let me know. I propose to have a local CNC shop set it up and offer the chassis for minimal markup on an ongoing basis. Local pro labor rates are generally about 1/2 here in north Utah vs. metro rates in CA where I previously lived.
I am in a similar boat, but I am using a Meridian 861 processor. I find their Tri-Field setting is the best sounding and sounds very similar to what your trinaural processor is going to do. Funny enough, I believe that Meridian uses Hypex in its DSP speakers, very old Hypex amps that is... I was thinking of just giving up, and going to Meridians DPS's, but this whole "Hypex Mania" has got me reengaged!
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It is a shame to see these Hypex amps are less than 4 inches wide, and a battery cannot drive them. I guess we will probably never know.
Why not? If I read the specs right earlier in this thread, the NC400's minimum rail voltage is +/-35vdc. Six 12v SLAs (three in series per rail) will give you +/-40vdc. The amps maximum power output will be reduced due to the lower voltage rails, but the battery advantage will be there.
Russ
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That's an incredible feat right there alone. Right? I mean are there any other 600 watt, 2ohm stable amps of that size?
Just a few inches across!
Wow, that flew right by me. Excellent point. Normally one would associate such a tiny lightweight amp making 600W @ 2-Ohms with only disposable, lowest-quality, mass market junk, the apparent polar opposite of Ncore.
Speaking of electronic junk...in making primeVibe HiWave Technologies (then NXT) forwarded EU requirements, through which I read the following: Somewhere in Europe exists a statue composed of 3.5 tons of electronic garbage representing the mass generated by the average human being in their lifetime.
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Why not? If I read the specs right earlier in this thread, the NC400's minimum rail voltage is +/-35vdc. Six 12v SLAs (three in series per rail) will give you +/-40vdc. The amps maximum power output will be reduced due to the lower voltage rails, but the battery advantage will be there.
Russ
Keep reading/researching earlier in this thread (IIRC about mid point)...there are several other unique PS requirements that, IIRC, would be tough to juggle with batteries.
As earlier posited, the gestalt of this product seems to be a game changer throughout...IOW, as per the euphemistic investment warning, prior results (battery vs. AC) may not be an indicator of future performance...no one's stating for a fact that batteries won't improve Ncore, but rather that it's within the realm of possibility that the improvement, if any, might be so much less than prior architecture that it's not worth the effort.
Also, more than one user mentions how critical is everything in front of Ncore (Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn's 40 year old "audio hierarchy"). It seems possible if not likely that Ncore owners might consider front end items prior to the potential "upgrade" to batteries powering the Ncore amps.
Separately, I presume battery aficionados generally agree that the quantity of improvement vs. AC varies depending on the quality of the AC.
For the record, I'm anxious for someone to try battery Ncore if it's possible. I predict, and would bet, Bruno's public/private contribution toward such an exercise will be a sum total zero, other than what's already posted concerning PS requirements.
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I am in a similar boat, but I am using a Meridian 861 processor. I find their Tri-Field setting is the best sounding and sounds very similar to what your trinaural processor is going to do. Funny enough, I believe that Meridian uses Hypex in its DSP speakers, very old Hypex amps that is... I was thinking of just giving up, and going to Meridians DPS's, but this whole "Hypex Mania" has got me reengaged!
Indeed, I think it's more than reasonable to describe Trinaural as a pure analog version of Meridian Tri-Field.
I find it immensely ironic/weird to consider that the amps inside any powered speaker regardless of cost (studio monitors upward of $100k, domestic gear like Linn and Meridian estimate up to $30k range) contain technology/architecture that is likely vastly inferior to Ncore.
I'm more than interested for you to clarify:
What exactly were you previously considering?
What are you considering now after reading about Ncore?
Compared to Tri-Field do you find 2-ch center fill to be a "ghost" or "phantom" effect, and with smaller stage size and density?
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I'm sure if all the battery folks put their heads together they could get a workable solution using one of these: http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/25_46/products_id/127?osCsid=4e0qvki2efe4i2djltucphqpl5 (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/25_46/products_id/127?osCsid=4e0qvki2efe4i2djltucphqpl5)
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Bruno -
"That sort of thing commonly happens on replay systems which try to "sound transparent". It's a bit of a terminology thing. Some people use the word to mean "you get a barrage of details thrown at you", others use it to say "can't hear it do anything to the sound at all".
The first kind of "transparency" is actually a euphonic wow-effect which you can create by dipping the frequency response a dB or two in two places (600Hz and 2kHz) and optionally adding a small bit of HF distortion in the electronics (e.g. using all power FETs and no feedback). That produces what reviewers would describe as "startling clarity" and indeed such a system tends to overemphasize some of the things that bad recordings do badly."
I love reading this guy's posts, they've been an education unto themselves. Lotta cool insights here.
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Wow, that flew right by me. Excellent point. Normally one would associate such a tiny lightweight amp making 600W @ 2-Ohms with only disposable, lowest-quality, mass market junk, the apparent polar opposite of Ncore.
Yes, look at that tiny thing! And can you believe all that power goes through there so efficiently it barely gets warm? Incredible.
Gonna have to win some awards, I imagine.
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I'm sure if all the battery folks put their heads together they could get a workable solution using one of these: http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/25_46/products_id/127?osCsid=4e0qvki2efe4i2djltucphqpl5 (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/25_46/products_id/127?osCsid=4e0qvki2efe4i2djltucphqpl5)
I bet that will work somehow. I will check with my electronic Guru. :thumb:
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Rclark, it only takes two Mosfets per/ch rated between 200v and 300v at 30 to 50 amps to do the job.
Remember,there is no standing bias current to heat up the aluminum mounting base. I would take the precaution of using a chassis with a floor or sides made from aluminum and mounting the module with a dose of heatsink compound.
Scotty
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Seems to be a lot of case options...
Looks like there will be several NC1200 amps available eventually, other than offered by Theta:
"The companies who are developing NC1200 based products prefer to keep their projects under wraps because announcing new products before they're ready hurts the sales of their current line. I do believe the first NC1200 product will be shown at the CES."
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earflappin and others:
are your Ncore amps plugged straight into the wall? I'm curious about the effect of power conditioners and whether they are needed for best sound.
Thanks.
Phil
Phil, mine are plugged into a PurePower 2000 battery-based regenerator. I may also try my Elgar and directly to the wall to see if there are any sonic differences.
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Welcome to Hypex' "Class D baptism." :lol:
earflappin,
I know the only answer to the following is in the hearing...but please comment if you feel so inclined...
I'm leaning toward one 3-ch box for Trinaural music system.
Hypothetical. Both below Ncore amps with separate SMPS600, high-quality IC/speaker cable:
Stereo amp, 3' IC, preamp unbalanced output, 10' speaker cable w/ .1 dB maximum signal loss
Mono-blocks, 11' IC, preamp unbalanced output, 3' speaker cable w/ .03 dB maximum signal loss
I appreciate comment on potential audible difference above. For unknown reason I suspect Ncore is less sensitive than regular linear amps in the above applications.
Ncore handles only above 120 Hz on this system. Also appreciate comment on passive 2-way crossover (simple 1st order, high-quality parts) vs. biamp/active xo. I similarly suspect Ncore exhibits less degradation than a regular linear amp powering passive crossovers.
James, sorry, but I don't feel sufficiently qualified to comment. I would encourage you to post this over on the DIY thread. Bruno is pretty good about responding to questions like these when he has the time. The other option is to email Hypex directly at their info address.
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From the DIY thread:
User discussing low power applications : "If you need only 5-10 watts max output, you should minimize noise with something like a tiny class A circuit with ultra-clean power supplies: maybe something in Nelson Pass's quiver (Aleph?). Really good amps like that are pretty rare, excluding tube amps which are generally sweet with distortion. IMHO, ultra-high-efficiency speakers sacrifice accuracy for color, but I shouldn't start a war here":
Interesting comment. One of the things that first struck me about the NCORES is how amazingly clear they sound at low volume. Everything is still there....just lower volume. The other people who have heard my NCORES have all pointed this out as well. I don't think I've heard another amplifier match their low level performance (or high level for that matter...).
Bruno -
"I should add that also at these low powers Ncore has way lower distortion than esoteric circuits purportedly invented specifically to have good low-power behaviour. When some designers (I saw a name flash by just now) claim their amp is "best below 1W" this simply means their amp gets steadily worse above 1W, not that below 1W it does better than any other amp. Of course they want you to think they're saying the latter. This is called the "bait and switch" fallacy. Don't fall for it. "
user: "I retract my Pass-ing fancy! "
One of the first things I noticed about the NCORES was how excellent they sound at low volume. Everything is there....just at low volume.... Other people who have heard my NCORES noticed the same thing.
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Just curious earflappiin, how detailed are the vocals that you are getting
with the Ncores?
Tom, the quality of vocals is like everything else....very resolved, dynamic yet musical. This performance is likely due to the combination of ruler flat response (more or less independent of load), super low noise floor and low output impedance, etc. The level of detail retrieved is almost spooky. So you hear all subtle nuances of instruments and vocalists. Hope this helps. I know I sound like a fanboy here....but if you read the other reviews I think you will see a consistency of perspective emerge.
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The hits keep right on coming:
"I would think that the mature amplifier is the one who manages to replicate the input signal with the greatest accuracy. Ncore does so 30 times better than the best zero-feedback amplifiers ever made"
"From Bruno's article: "Hi-fi review is a complete shambles. The few magazines that do measure are capable of reprinting the most frightening distortion spectra from amplifiers and actually call them good."
If you think reviews for amplifiers are bad, you haven't seen the radioactive glowing crater for speakers. Time and time again a manufacturer *cough*Wilson*cough* gets praised to the skies while the measurements indicate clearly aberrant frequency response, such as bass up by 8 db, or a midrange hole almost an octave wide, or treble response best described as idiosyncratically ragged"
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"If the on-axis response is flat, if the power response is smooth (it may have a slope or a gentle shelf) and if distortion across frequency doesn't do any ridiculous things you can be pretty much sure the speaker is going to give you years of very convincing playback. That doesn't mean that speakers who don't tick all the boxes will sound bad. Frequency response deviations and nonlinear distortion can sound really nice. That is what most sound engineering (mixing and mastering) is about: adding distortion, EQ'ing, compressing and whatnot. It is sometimes thought that audio objectivists presume that all distortions sound ugly. And since that's clearly not true, audio objectivism is therefore supposedly false. Well, no objectivist has ever claimed distortion (linear or nonlinear) necessarily sounds ugly.
They can sound really really nice. But that doesn't mean correct. Just like some amplifiers with loads of distortion add a lot of musicality that wasn't originally there. The trouble with purely subjectivist reviews is that you're essentially at the mercy of the reviewer's tastes If he just runs after that thing which sounds just that bit nicer than the previous thing he liked, he's locking himself into a positive feedback loop searching for the ultimate ear-candy. It's reasonable to expect that the occasional visit to unamplified live sound should keep this in check, but that presumes that the people who record music don't go out and buy the same high-end loudspeakers that the reviewers have just praised all the way to the heavens. But that's precisely what they do, particularly classical music studios and mastering engineers. Unless measurements get given their proper place as a design and evaluation tool, just the way they are in any engineering endeavour, there is no end in sight. Probably the only reason why people think not relying on measurements is somehow acceptable is because it's easy to confuse audio with music. I hate to break it but music is art, and audio is engineering. I don't like engineering to get in the way of art, which is why I think it should be undetectable.
From an audio quality point of view the ideal situation would be where reviews simply established to what degree the product fulfils its requirements. If it changes the sound it's bad, if it doesn't it's good. The longer I'm in this business the clearer it's become to me that measurements and sound go hand in hand provided you strive for the least colouration. If magazines actually reviewed along those lines you would be surprised how rapidly the audio industry would converge on seriously good equipment, both technically and sonically. Really good audio would just turn into a commodity.
But there lies the rub. Audio magazines are not in the business of evaluating kit. They're in the business of selling paper, which they do by expedient of printing things on that paper in order to make it more attractive. Reasonably objective magazines, so far, have either failed or moved into lighter prose and more sparse data. What all of this means is that it isn't in audio journalists' interest to tow the sonically neutral line. You just can't keep filling magazines with reviews of amplifiers that become ever and ever more transparent (and hence identical).
This is not an indictment. It's just logical"
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I'd like to suggest if you're going to copy and paste anyones writing that you should provide a link to it too.
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Its all the diyaudio thread.
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But the question is which one?
Scotty
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Very well, I'll go back and mark the pages. This thread here will surely be around for a while.
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Its all the diyaudio thread.
From the AC Posting Guidelines (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=37305.0):
Site Admin would like you to follow the following:
* Don't copy large amounts of text from other websites, just post a link! This is not just a copyright issue but also saves putting unnecessary load on our database and backup system.
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I'd like to suggest if you're going to copy and paste anyones writing that you should provide a link to it too.
+1
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:oops:
Anyway.. JT any impressions yet?
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I think I have found the thread Rclark is quoting from but there are 259 pages in the thread.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-259.html
Where to start looking for Brunos posts on a specific aspect of the Ncore amps or his thoughts on audio in general is a problem.
Links to the pages where you found a specific topic would be very helpful. I like to read the associated posts to get the context surrounding Bruno's comments.
Scotty
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Just ordered 3x NC400, 3x SMPS600...Hypex charges 5% for Paypal, 4% for CC...I chose direct international wire transfer for which my bank charges $40.
I'll select 3-ch or mono chassis after listening for differences between shorter/longer speaker cables.
All I can say is I'm glad I didn't purchase two stereo Quad Premiere Elite QSP amps as I had recently planned!
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Seems to be a lot of case options...
Looks like there will be several NC1200 amps available eventually, other than offered by Theta:
"The companies who are developing NC1200 based products prefer to keep their projects under wraps because announcing new products before they're ready hurts the sales of their current line. I do believe the first NC1200 product will be shown at the CES."
How old is this? Is this CES, 2013!
If not, seems like they missed out Though technically correct with the Theta mono bloacks.
If so, that seems like a missed opportunity.
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Just ordered 3x NC400, 3x SMPS600...Hypex charges 5% for Paypal, 4% for CC...I chose direct international wire transfer for which my bank charges $40.
I'll select 3-ch or mono chassis after listening for differences between shorter/longer speaker cables.
All I can say is I'm glad I didn't purchase two stereo Quad Premiere Elite QSP amps as I had recently planned!
How much are the amps by themselves?
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How much are the amps by themselves?
It's all here: https://www.hypexshop.com/
Each module is 325 euros.
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If you can live with 5-Ohm minimum rating, power 2x NC400 amp modules with one SMPS600 (double check this).
I chose one SMPS600 per amp because:
Speakers drop to 2.7 Ohms @ 200 Hz (though effective impedance is higher because of line-level high-pass crossover)
Actual sensitivity 87.5 dB/W/M
3000cf room
Loud is good
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One warning on the TBI amp before anyone shells out the $500.
I was breaking in some new speakers this week, decided to crank them up last night. The sound was very lean and dry. So bad, the sound quality was a 3-4 rating. I quickly put a tube integrated and the magic came back, but a lot of the detail was gone.
Frustrated, I hooked the TBI amp back up, this time cranking the volume up to the max, using the computer for volume control. Bingo, there was the detail and magic back. Now the sound was a strong 9.75 rating. The TBI was now much better than the tube integrated I used on these very revealing speakers. At low volumes on the TBI integrated volume control, you will definirely not like the sound.
I have some AMR audiophile fuses coming in next week, I will see what those will do to the sound.
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Tom, what very revealing speakers are you breaking in?
Scotty
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One warning on the TBI amp before anyone shells out the $500.
I was breaking in some new speakers this week, decided to crank them up last night. The sound was very lean and dry. So bad, the sound quality was a 3-4 rating. I quickly put a tube integrated and the magic came back, but a lot of the detail was gone.
Frustrated, I hooked the TBI amp back up, this time cranking the volume up to the max, using the computer for volume control. Bingo, there was the detail and magic back. Now the sound was a strong 9.75 rating. The TBI was now much better than the tube integrated I used on these very revealing speakers. At low volumes on the TBI integrated volume control, you will definirely not like the sound.
I have some AMR audiophile fuses coming in next week, I will see what those will do to the sound.
That's interesting Tom, I wonder if a neutral pre would work? But then I wouldn't want to shell out for one.
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I think I have found the thread Rclark is quoting from but there are 259 pages in the thread.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-259.html
Where to start looking for Brunos posts on a specific aspect of the Ncore amps or his thoughts on audio in general is a problem.
Links to the pages where you found a specific topic would be very helpful. I like to read the associated posts to get the context surrounding Bruno's comments.
Scotty
I'd recommend against the constant quoting as it makes this entire thread incredibly annoying to attempt to read. A link to the general DIY thread would be fine, imo. If I want to read that thread, I can do so....very easily.
-Jim
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Jim, perhaps my post was not concise enough.
I was also asking for links only, as I also found wading through the
quotes a somewhat tedious process.
Scotty
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Jim, perhaps my post was not concise enough.
I was also asking for links only, as I also found wading through the
quotes a somewhat tedious process.
Scotty
Scotty, you and I are on the same page.
-Jim
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Um, dude, I got the memo already, it's even right here on this very same page, but thanks for your input on the matter.
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I just want to pipe in to say how much I appreciate the selective quoting from the diyaudio thread, whose length is daunting at this point. Anyone pointing out the greatest hits here is much appreciated...
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Thanks Roscoe :thumb:
Folks there is some tasty stuff in those quotes, if you care to look. But I'll stop. Hopefully we can get some reviews going on this apparent giant slayer among giant slayers.
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No, my point was that you shouldn't stop. You are saving us a lot of time weeding out junk comments in one of those megathreads. Don't see what is wrong with that. My POV is that you have been doing us a service. Maybe a link to the post you are quoting would be appreciated. But I see what you are giving us as a positive thing.
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I've been using my phone but when I get to my laptop I still intend to go back and mark where they came from page-wize.
Yeah, he's got some of the best unvarnished insights I've ever seen from a designer. And I like the tech-speak. I learn more and am forced to pay attention. Rather than the usual prose, you know.
A lot of designers are very curt and short, but he likes to talk. I think it's great.
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Hopefully I'll still have the AKSA Naksa 100 after my little Ncore jewels arrive.
The last super high-quality amp I owned was 2011 Linn Chakra Majik 3100, 3x 57/100Wrms @ 8/4 Ohms...The only known upgrade to Chakra architecture since it arrived '99 (Klimax mono blocks) I know of is the switch from linear to SMPS. I had the SMPS. Chakra is unique. It employs a pure analog monolithic chip. Chips have better tolerance values compared to normal discrete circuits, but chips pass little current. Linn increased current capacity by adding bipolar transistors at the output. Chakra is like Quad's ancient "current dumping" but a chip replaces the discreet circuit.
I loved the Majik, even more than Atma-Sphere OTL, but needed more power. The 3x 114/200W 8/4 Ohm Linn Akurate is about $5500.
The Majik amp is gone now. The Naksa 100 is in league with Chakra sound quality/pleasure best I can tell, but they have a different gestalt. If I had to pick a winner I'd lean to Naksa 100, less noise (between and with the notes), and treble maybe best I've heard, cymbals and overall percussion effects pop in the stage very much like live, leading edge transients super quick yet completely natural. Both amps fatigue free all day. Naksa plays louder I think. I think the Naksa has a slight fingerprint, something I never heard in the Majik...yet there be a more natural effect with the Naksa. Kind of like a tube sound effect, but extremely faint, much less than any tube regardless of cost (I always hear tube noise with all-tube amps...not saying I can't adjust to it and like the amp, but it's there and most noticeable when you first hear it...well, maybe not the $150k Lamm monos with Wilson speakers at 2012 CES, but c'mon, what do you expect at that price?)
Naksa 100 vs. Ncore a great rumble! (both in stereo only because the Naksa 100 is stereo)
Re. Bruno enjoying conversation, and not being afraid to call designers out for shoddy design: I've been around James Bongiorno quite a bit. James, um, has strong opinions of most everything related to audio design in general, and power amp in particular. If you don't know his history, check it. He's one of the high end's original inventors. In the early 2000s at CES when James won the High End Audio Technology Award (for Trinaural) he had a conversation with one of the head designers at Meridian (IIRC) and was just openly mocking their test equipment, which James considered to be from the stone age.
I would pay money to hear a conversation between James and Bruno. It would be quite interesting because James is really into the hard science of test specifications, which it seems Bruno is also. James one of analog's originals, Bruno with similar record (though shorter) in the digital realm.
ETA next batch Ncore is week 11, starts Monday 18 March!
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Um, dude, I got the memo already, it's even right here on this very same page, but thanks for your input on the matter.
Um, "dude", its not a go-forward request. Why don't you delete all of the quotes in your old messages. I like Audiocircle and would not like to see it exposed to a lawsuit.
This is the worst thread on Audiocircle because of the quoting. Again, we're not that stupid, and can read the Diyaudio thread if so inclined.
-Jim
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What bothers me so much about all the buyers, there is not a lot of reviews to read over yonder.
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OzarkTom,which speakers were you breaking in with the TBI amps?
Scotty
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We should have seen a few reviews by now, The initial run was not very large. I know there are some just starting on the DIY thread, but I haven't gotten that far..
Btw, pages 150-160 of the thread Bruno says that we can measure most everything but there are some things which still require listening, and that science is not finished creating tools for measuring audio. Not all is yet, as it has been argued against, measurable.
That should make many people here happy.
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We should have seen a few reviews by now, The initial run was not very large. I know there are some just starting on the DIY thread, but I haven't gotten that far..
Btw, pages 150-160 of the thread Bruno says that we can measure most everything but there are some things which still require listening, and that science is not finished creating tools for measuring audio. Not all is yet, as it has been argued against, measurable.
That should make many people here happy.
IIRC there are 8-10 reviews or more on the NCORE DIY thread from various posts on different speakers comparing different amps.
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Btw, pages 150-160 of the thread...
Please reference post numbers when referring to diyAudio threads. Their userCP allows you to set number of posts per page and I long ago set mine to the maximum to get through the larger threads on fewer pages. The NCore thread has 53 pages in my view.
Thanks,
Martin
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IIRC there are 8-10 reviews or more on the NCORE DIY thread from various posts on different speakers comparing different amps.
With over 2600 posts on DIY, I just don't have the time to find 8 or 10. I noticed several were running active speakers.
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I also can't wait for a shootout between Ncore and the almighty SET amp. Bruno apparently started life as a tube amp designer but now no longer considers them even relevant, so that will be interesting.
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None available till April 30th! But apparently the next batch will be much larger.
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I wish he'd make the NC1200 available to the DIYer, too.
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I wish he'd make the NC1200 available to the DIYer, too.
+1,000,000
Martin
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I wish he'd make the NC1200 available to the DIYer, too.
Why do you want the NC1200 if it doesn't measure as well as the NC400 (I haven't looked but that's what I remember Bruno posting on diy)?
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What do you think? 3 or 4 years maybe? Or maybe something like an nc700?
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What do you think? 3 or 4 years maybe? Or maybe something like an nc700?
I think if you read the diy site the future is pretty clear to where they're going. Good for some, bad for some...it all depends on what you want.
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Why do you want the NC1200 if it doesn't measure as well as the NC400 (I haven't looked but that's what I remember Bruno posting on diy)?
Just to make sure there was a power surplus. I have a thing about headroom. I didn't know it didn't measure as well as the NC400, because I'm not following that thread.
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Just to make sure there was a power surplus. I have a thing about headroom. I didn't know it didn't measure as well as the NC400, because I'm not following that thread.
Oh trust me I know all about headroom. I had 300wpc Class A amps on 95dB speakers. :duh:
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I can't imagine needing more than 400 watts with dips into 5 or 600 depending on load. But you never know.
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I'm thinking of it more as a conservatively specified 200 wpc, since that's the rating into 8 ohms and most speakers that interest me are 8 ohms types.
Looking at the 4 ohm "large signal tests" (fig. 9.2 on the NC400 datasheet) I would think of it more as a 300 wpc amp at 4 ohms, since the distortion curve goes pretty much vertical beyond that - or 400 watts with almost zero headroom.
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Well compared to the maxed out 85 or so I'm getting now, that's Cadillac power.
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Bummer that they are now not available until May. Great for Hypex that they are selling so well. But a two month wait is rough. Just as I was about to pull the trigger on the batch due in week 11, boom no luck until week 18...
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Bummer that they are now not available until May. Great for Hypex that they are selling so well. But a two month wait is rough. Just as I was about to pull the trigger on the batch due in week 11, boom no luck until week 18...
It does sound like a worthwhile wait, though, and gives you time to sell your existing amp(s) before word gets out!
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Hey, who wants to buy a French YBA-designed 3-ch amp?
Russell, thanks for your critique of the power specs. 300Wrms @ 4 Ohms is about double or more the power of my current amp, so that should be sweet.
What do you make of the power @ 2.7 Ohms with one SMPS600 per channel? How might you expect 120V performance to differ, if at all, vs. the 230V test specs?
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Yeah, time to save, casually choose some chassis'...
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Hey, who wants to buy a French YBA-designed 3-ch amp?
Russell, thanks for your critique of the power specs. 300Wrms @ 4 Ohms is about double or more the power of my current amp, so that should be sweet.
What do you make of the power @ 2.7 Ohms with one SMPS600 per channel? How might you expect 120V performance to differ, if at all, vs. the 230V test specs?
YBA are wonderful amps in my book, but this brings up a point in reference to what Rclark said about chassis. Yves Bernard André (YBA) told a friend of mine (in 1993) that if it were not for marketing difficulties, he would sell his amps without metal tops and bottoms because they spoiled the sound, and he advised us to take these panels off our own amps for the improved sound. In fact shortly after telling us this, I think he did sell one of his models - an "Intégré" - with an acrylic or glass top. Yves was early into damping components like capacitors, and considered that was an important part of the YBA sound. As a result we at our store damped everything we feasibly could with some black automotive goop - I forget the name. It was one of our secret weapons. It seemed to help almost everything we applied it to, including IC's.
If I were playing with these Ncore modules, I would experiment with minimally enclosing them, metal-wise. I would compare their performance outside of a case with inside, and with metal and wood cases. I notice that the one trial and review was done with these out in the open - no chassis as such. I just would say when it comes time to drop them in cases, pay attention to any potential effect on the sound. Denis Morecroft is no fool - he pioneered this concept, I think, as well as others which have caught on big time: http://www.dnm.co.uk/materials.html
and with these amps as revealing as they supposedly are, this may be particularly important.
As to the 240 vs 120v question, as well as the 50Hz vs 60Hz factor, I think that with switching mode power supplies this does not make much difference as the transformer operates at a much-higher-than-line frequency, and thus does not need to be bigger as is needed in linear supplies for 120v vs 240v.
As important as the absolute power is the amp's behaviour in recovery from clipping. This was found to be one of the few measurable performance characteristics that co-related with apparent sound quality in a survey done some time ago by HFN in response to the Ongaku sounding so good and measuring so bad. The other, by the way, was the degree to which RF contamination affected the amp's performance. It seems that amps are in some degree of clipping much more of the time than is commonly realized, so clipping recovery behaviour, which is associated with stability as regards oscillation, is important to the sonic character because most amps are spending a lot of their time recovering from clipping. Clipping drives many amps into incipient oscillation which is ringing, and generally doesn't sound good. Anthony Michaelson of Musical Fidelity speaks honestly about this; few do.
I feel confident Bruno has all this well in hand, though, and is one of the factors contributing to the open, revealing and effortless sound spoken of.
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Very interesting Russell and thanks for the link. Does anyone make a chassis as such, that allows the fields created to "breathe" ? I think an clear chassis could be neat just to see the tiny modules inside as well as the light show they put off.
They'll be butted up to the back end of each speaker and so not really visible unless you walk around to see. So light show is no problem. In fact, with the room lights off, the glow from behind each speaker might be kind of cool.
(I'm sure someone wanting to experiment with this but not interested in lights could just tint them out)
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Russel,
What about plastic boxes?
Also, for future amp/speaker builders: IMO routing speaker level signals through binding posts is hazardous for performance. Super high-quality posts go up to about $75/pr IIRC.
I prefer to drill a hole directly next to the posts, in the speaker terminal board and the chassis panel in the amp, to which the posts are attached. Post composition does not matter as long as they are strong and have large holes for bare wire.
For extra insulation in a metal chassis panel you can add a rubber grommet.
The speaker wire (in the speaker or the amp) exits the hole next to the post. Tin the bare wire end. On the amp-to-speaker cables, tin the bare wire ends.
Insert both tinned wire ends in the post holes and tension with the post knob. The post is only a mechanical coupler for two tinned wire ends.
In normal post use you solder (or screw a spade terminal) inside the post, the signal passes along the post length via plating and internal composition, then through the plating again to a spade or banana plug outside the post, from the spade or banana to the wire.
I'm sleepy and will re-write this tomorrow if not clear.
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Russel,
What about plastic boxes?
Well, Denis Morecroft uses acrylic - poke around his site from the link above. It's an education. He also pioneered the concept of solid core unshielded cables of the smallest gauge to carry the signal, also slit foil capacitors. He has been at the bleeding edge of this stuff consistently for the last 27 years or so, but he was so uncompromising that his product always looked really expensive for the numbers (watts, pounds), partly because it was (is?) made in Switzerland and so never sold in numbers, nor did he advertize much. Not a commercial success, in other words, though he still seems to be around. I never did actually see or hear one of his amps.
edited to add this link to preamp review: http://www.stereophile.com/artdudleylistening/308listen/index.html
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please rewrite that James :green:
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Per Russell's post, this is why he wants extra power or headroom, so that he doesn't have to listen to the amp operate in a condition of clipping. This is what makes 300 watts a channel powering a speaker with 95 dB sensitivity a very sane thing to do.
I have speakers with 95dB sensitivity also and 108 watts/ch and I always wonder if I am going to run out of steam on peaks. I have Russell's recording of Prokofiev/Tchaikovsky which has little to no compression depending on which CD you are are listening to and I have never tried to play it back with the peak volume that occurred during the live performance, something like 126 dB instantaneous peak SPL. I suspect that I might need about 1000 watts into 8ohms to deal with the recording.
Most of the music I listen to has a very limited dynamic range compared the aforementioned recording and seldom asks for the kind of power levels that would tax my combination of power amp and speakers. I have one other recording that is worrisome, it is the recording of the 1910 version of the complete ballet The Firebird by Stravinsky, Pierre Boulez conducting The Chicago Symphony Orchestra on the Deutsche Grammophone label. It has what sounds like a fairly wide dynamic range for a commercially released recording.
You really can't have too much power.
Scotty
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please rewrite that James :green:
what jim is saying, is instead of soldering the internal speaker and amp wires to their respective binding posts on the inside of the amps and speakers, drill a hole thru the binding post plates (or speaker/amp chassis, if no plates), and let the wires from inside the amps and speakers hang out the holes. then, place them into the speaker binding posts on the outside of the amp/speakers, along with your speaker cable. so, when you tighten the speaker cable in the binding posts, you are also tightening the wiring from the internal speaker wiring harness, and at the amp end, the internal amp output wiring... by doing this, you are making direct speaker cable to wiring harness connections at both the amp end and speaker end. no speaker cable spades/bananas connecting to chassis binding posts; but direct wire-to-wire connections. the chassis binding posts are used merely to tighten down the bare wires of the speaker cables to the internal wiring harness of the amp and speakers...
doug s.
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Per Russell's post, this is why he wants extra power or headroom, so that he doesn't have to listen to the amp operate in a condition of clipping. This is what makes 300 watts a channel powering a speaker with 95 dB sensitivity a very sane thing to do.
I have speakers with 95dB sensitivity also and 108 watts/ch and I always wonder if I am going to run out of steam on peaks. I have Russell's recording of Prokofiev/Tchaikovsky which has little to no compression depending on which CD you are are listening to and I have never tried to play it back with the peak volume that occurred during the live performance, something like 126 dB instantaneous peak SPL. I suspect that I might need about 1000 watts into 8ohms to deal with the recording.
Most of the music I listen to has a very limited dynamic range compared the aforementioned recording and seldom asks for the kind of power levels that would tax my combination of power amp and speakers. I have one other recording that is worrisome, it is the recording of the 1910 version of the complete ballet The Firebird by Stravinsky, Pierre Boulez conducting The Chicago Symphony Orchestra on the Deutsche Grammophone label. It has what sounds like a fairly wide dynamic range for a commercially released recording.
You really can't have too much power.
Scotty
scott, your amp is 108wrms or peak? if rms, it should theoretically be able to drive your speakers at ~115db all day long. could your speaker even do 126db if your amp had 1000w? realistically, i think you awreddy have plenty of power... if your room is 30x40, then mebbe a little more would be good. even then, the nc400 should be ok.
if you have a big room and pro audio speakers capable of 126+db, and you really want 126db peaks in your listening room, then ya, go for 1000wpc...
doug s.
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That's RMS with zero headroom and 180w/4ohms.
There is also no way the midranges and tweeter would take anywhere near that power input. The midranges have a maximum power rating of 90 watts and there are two of them per speaker so the amp will clip at about it's 4 ohm peak output about the time the midranges run out of gas.
The system might do 115dB all day long but I don't think my lease can take it.
The thing is you can't tell when you might run out of gas the system doesn't sound distorted at + 96 dB and my ears have gone non-linear past this point if it's average SPLs and not peaks. With a CD like Russell's with no compression the sudden peaks can sneak up on you with no warning, bam.
Real uncompressed music is a roller coaster, it sounds great but it's kind of scary and also addicting in an adrenaline junky kind of way.
Scotty
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scotty, i understand perfectly the excitement of real uncompressed music. i have a horn system that is close to 100db efficient. 8) and, i also understand that having more than you need, when it comes to power, can be a good thing. but, everything you said regarding your system points to the fact that your speakers have enough power. any more, and you will blow your speakers. in many cases, speakers (tweeters especially) can be blown by overdriving an amp; the clipping will blow the tweeters. in your case, you could blow them by simply overdriving the speakers. don't get too addicted... :wink:
doug s.
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The system might do 115dB all day long but I don't think my lease can take it.
The thing is you can't tell when you might run out of gas the system doesn't sound distorted at + 96 dB and my ears have gone non-linear past this point if it's average SPLs and not peaks. With a CD like Russell's with no compression the sudden peaks can sneak up on you with no warning, bam.
Scotty
All I can say is, take care of your ears!
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Yes, at 126 SPL's, it will not take long before you are deaf.
No matter what casings you use, or even no casings, try using the Moongel drum pads underneath to isolate the amps from your shelves or floor. These pads beats even the most expensive, and can be had for $6.95 for a set of four on Ebay. This even includes the shipping.
These even beats the expensive Stillpoints. I love finding these bargains.
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Yes, at 126 SPL's, it will not take long before you are deaf.
No matter what casings you use, or even no casings, try using the Moongel drum pads underneath to isolate the amps from your shelves or floor. These pads beats even the most expensive, and can be had for $6.95 for a set of four on Ebay. This even includes the shipping.
These even beats the expensive Stillpoints. I love finding these bargains.
These?
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Moongel?utm_source=CSEGoogle&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&utm_term=Moongel&rkg_attid=333888496&SID=2&zmam=89202644&zmas=1&zmac=1&zmap=Moongel
You put these under your equipment?
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These?
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Moongel?utm_source=CSEGoogle&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&utm_term=Moongel&rkg_attid=333888496&SID=2&zmam=89202644&zmas=1&zmac=1&zmap=Moongel
You put these under your equipment?
Yes, it works like magic. Top to bottom, the sound is better.
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Yes, it works like magic. Top to bottom, the sound is better.
:scratch: Might just have to try this...
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Remember, at a live performance of classical music we frequently experience peak SPLs over 115dB where the long term average SPL is might be only 78dB depending upon who the composer and the conductor is.
Most of the time I never go past 85dB when listening to most commercially produced recordings, there is just no dynamic range to them.
Ironically HT usage places a much greater demand on my system than music does due to the special effects tracks being way louder than the dialogue.
Scotty
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Yes, it works like magic. Top to bottom, the sound is better.
BTW-where are they mean't to be used on the kick drum?
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BTW-where are they mean't to be used on the kick drum?
Free shipping from this Ebayer. I believe drummers use them to dampen the cymbals.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RTOM-Moongel-Drum-Damper-Pad-Moongel-Drum-Damper-Pad-/110790435097?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cb9fe119#ht_3018wt_908
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Free shipping from this Ebayer. I believe drummers use them to dampen the cymbals.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RTOM-Moongel-Drum-Damper-Pad-Moongel-Drum-Damper-Pad-/110790435097?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cb9fe119#ht_3018wt_908
OK
Free shipping from my link too. :wink:
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I use Sorbothane hemispheres under all my electronics: http://www.vibrationmounts.com/RFQ/VM110706.htm
Vibration Mounts is the least expensive source I've found for them...
I use Dynamat inside the cases, too. My 1000ASP based monoblock cases respond with a dull thump when rapped with a knuckle.
Martin
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I use Sorbothane hemispheres under all my electronics: http://www.vibrationmounts.com/RFQ/VM110706.htm
Vibration Mounts is the least expensive source I've found for them...
I use Dynamat inside the cases, too. My 1000ASP based monoblock cases respond with a dull thump when rapped with a knuckle.
Martin
Moongel pads sounds better than sorbothane feet by quite a bit. The Sorbothane is too rigid.
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Moongel pads sounds better than sorbothane feet by quite a bit. The Sorbothane is too rigid.
The 30 durometer Sorbothane is pretty darned squishy... I can easily compress a hemishpere to less than half its thickness between my thumb and forefinger. Are those Moongel pads similar in consistency to Dr. Scholl's gel pads?
Martin
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The 30 durometer Sorbothane is pretty darned squishy... I can easily compress a hemishpere to less than half its thickness between my thumb and forefinger. Are those Moongel pads similar in consistency to Dr. Scholl's gel pads?
Martin
The moongels are very squishy like the gel pads, but they actually sounded a little better than the gel pads did. We tried them in two systems. I don't know why the difference.
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you can tell sq improvements based on levels of squish under your gear? Are normal listening levels that detrimental to gear? How much? And if it's bass freqs causing the prob, what about all those waves passing through the box itself?
A little skeptical but interested. This is a physical tangible thing so maybe there's something to it, but haven't bothered with yet. Didn't think 70 80db would disrupt my gear.
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I have in my possession, and auditioned other similar, component support devices of apparent high-tech composition. In each case the devices seem to worsen performance rather than improve it.
The strange thing is that years ago I almost universally thought such devices improved performance. Go figure.
doug s.,
Thanks for clarifying the post recipe. Do you employ that recipe, and if so, what do you think of it vs. normal post function?
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I have planars and all my gear is off to the side in a null anyway. :lol:
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doug s.,
Thanks for clarifying the post recipe. Do you employ that recipe, and if so, what do you think of it vs. normal post function?
jim, no, i have never tried this. i did become aware of it quite a few years ago, reading the info about the ridge street audio "sason" loudspeakers - they prowide a modified cardas clamp-type connector that works much as you recommend - no binding post in the signal path; yust the internal wiring harness end(s) laying there, meant to be tightened down on your bare speaker wire ends w/no connectors...
i am tweaky to a certain degree, but there's some things i yust can't seem to be bothered with doing... :lol:
doug s.
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I have planars and all my gear is off to the side in a null anyway. :lol:
For 7 bucks, this tweak is worth a try. My buddy and I has found it improves the amp, Dac, Pre-amp, and even Box speakers.
Anthony Gallo now includes a set of gel pads with every pair oh his new Classico box speakers. Gallo says the gel pads sounds better than spikes to him.
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No matter what casings you use, or even no casings, try using the Moongel drum pads underneath to isolate the amps from your shelves or floor. These pads beats even the most expensive, and can be had for $6.95 for a set of four on Ebay. This even includes the shipping.
These even beats the expensive Stillpoints. I love finding these bargains.
Do you have any idea how much weight these will safely support, Tom? I have a pair of 31 lb monitor speakers I'd like to try them with, even though it flies in the face of received wisdom of a few years ago which had it that a rigid coupling to the floor through the stand was the aim.
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Russell, The Moongel pads are $8 for a set of 4 on Amazon with free shipping. At this price you could double down and buy 4 sets for $32 and get them shipped for free.
http://www.amazon.com/Moongel-AMG-Resonance-Pads/dp/B0002L52BE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1331835464&sr=8-3
In as much as you are re-purposing the Moongel pads and using them in a manner for which they were never intended to be used, experimentation seems to be the order of the day.
You could start with 20% to 30% static deflection which is what is recommended for sorbothane.
Scotty
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... I put it back for Max.
you can tell sq improvements based on levels of squish under your gear?
No.... but your partner can. Its amazing what the young'ns will discuss in a public forum. :oops:
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Russell, The Moongel pads are $8 for a set of 4 on Amazon with free shipping. At this price you could double down and buy 4 sets for $32 and get them shipped for free.
http://www.amazon.com/Moongel-AMG-Resonance-Pads/dp/B0002L52BE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1331835464&sr=8-3
In as much as you are re-purposing the Moongel pads and using them in a manor for which they were never intended to be used, experimentation seems to be the order of the day.
You could start with 20% to 30% static deflection which is what is recommended for sorbothane.
Scotty
Thanks, Scotty. I just found out they sell for $6 a set at Canada's equivalent to Guitar Center (Long & McQuade), so I'll hop right down there and get some!
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...
I thought it was funny...
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Thanks, Scotty. I just found out they sell for $6 a set at Canada's equivalent to Guitar Center (Long & McQuade), so I'll hop right down there and get some!
For 31 pounds, you might want to stack two sets under your speakers on each corner. But first try one set to see if that will work.
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I actually read that whole damn thread. The reviews are quite staggering, considering the amps ($$) that are being compared and beaten. The descriptions of the Ncore's performance... should be read by all.
The thread, for me, is an eye opener on many, many levels (mostly Bruno's comments), and thanks to it I finally have sharply defined notions of what I want, and don't want in my system, as far as source gear. For starters, no tubes. I'm sad that I missed out on that whole era, I was kind of looking forward to having big tube monoblocks, wow, neat, look at those!, but I'd rather go this route, superior fidelity. Let the warmth come from the recording, not my amp.
I'm sure I'll love the amps, because they don't have a house sound of any sort, no tube coloration, no distortion. It will be neat to compare to my current amp, which apparently has a "tube like sound". I'm going to use this theme in my entire system. Whatever piece of gear he introduces next, dac, attenuators, whatever, I'm going to follow closely.
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Just because a designer is gifted in one area does not mean that this skill will extend to other types of equipment. Each piece in the audio chain has its unique challenges.
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The tube like sound that so many refers to is caused by the outut transformers. OTL's don't have that colored, warm, veiled sound.
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I'm sad that I missed out on that whole era, I was kind of looking forward to having big tube monoblocks, wow, neat, look at those!, but I'd rather go this route, superior fidelity. Let the warmth come from the recording, not my amp.
I've read 1/3 of the thread and got the opposite impression...I think it sounds like a nice tube preamp would work very well with a revealing/non-warm power amp.
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At this point, I don't think that there is a single "tube sound" that can describe all tubes in all implementations. Best to talk about specific components (DAC, Pre, Amp), specific designs (SET, Push-Pull, OTL, Hybrids), and specific characteristics of particular components/brands. Both SS and tube designers are able to dial in strengths usually attributed to tube or SS designs at this point. And there is much to argue for components like tube amps with "SS-like characteristics" and vice versa.
Likewise, we hear similar things said about class D amps.
We have a great variety of components that find a middle ground between what has traditionally been attributed to SS and tubes. And to that we can mix and match amps, pres and sources in a number of glorious permutations until we hit on what we like best.
Since this is an ncore thread, I'll certainly say that I would be very interested in seeing a review of the ncore paired with a wide range of preamps.
But broad sweeping strokes aren't helping anyone at this point.
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@max
That's only because certain people who've had tubes their whole life will insist in having one in the chain. No problem there. Well, not my problem anyway.
And you should read the while thread and the side links to articles about Bruno. He started life as a tube amp designer. You got the wrong impression.
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Just because a designer is gifted in one area does not mean that this skill will extend to other types of equipment. Each piece in the audio chain has its unique challenges.
He claims to be expert in all those areas, including speakers, and has products coming. Sometimes there is a gifted genius who can do it all.
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Oh and Roscoe, as I said, these are my own conclusions, you're all free to do whatever you want :lol:
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@max
That's only because certain people who've had tubes their whole life will insist in having one in the chain. No problem there. Well, not my problem anyway.
And you should read the while thread and the side links to articles about Bruno. He started life as a tube amp designer. You got the wrong impression.
I hear you. I'm one of those people who prefer a little bit of tubes in the chain, typically in the preamp but I've had similar success with cdp's with tubes. Some tube integrateds have done it for me too but they can be missing some punch for my tastes. (my preferences are of course with the limited amount of gear my budget has allowed me to own)
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@max
That's only because certain people who've had tubes their whole life will insist in having one in the chain. No problem there. Well, not my problem anyway.
And you should read the while thread and the side links to articles about Bruno. He started life as a tube amp designer. You got the wrong impression.
you're still wet behind the ears, son! :green: i have only "been into" tubes for about 12 years. it took me thirty years to get into tubes. :lol:
now, i am also interested in hearing these ncores. my feelings are that, while i love tube amps, i can live w/sand amps. can't say that about preamps, at least not yet. all i know is that the only thing permanent is change... 8)
doug s.
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Who here has ordered them yet? If so, are you putting everything together yourself? What enclosure are you using and can you share what parts/wires you plan on installing?
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:D I hear ya Doug, and I'm looking forward to hearing some all-tube systems soon. But I feel like I missed that boat entirely, and it really just seems like the age of tubes is over. Which is unfortunate because I like the look of these massive, gawky, ungainly looking mono's with light bulbs coming out all over the surface. I love the look. Ncores's will sit in a plain, boring box. (actually I'm getting in on a volume deal for a very pretty case, but no glowing lights.)
I'm not being entirely honest, I've listened to tube systems before, but it was way back in the day. Once was at Adire Audio. The sound was rich, almost syrupy.
I understand that tubes can be made to be transparent, but then what's the point of that since SS, especially now, does that so much better? Transparency with tubes is like making Pepsi taste like water. No point.
I'd rather go this direction. And I don't have a lot of systems around me so I can't test with my wallet, the things I buy have to be a sure thing.
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:D I hear ya Doug, and I'm looking forward to hearing some all-tube systems soon. But I feel like I missed that boat entirely, and it really just seems like the age of tubes is over. Which is unfortunate because I like the look of these massive, gawky, ungainly looking mono's with light bulbs coming out all over the surface. I love the look. Ncores's will sit in a plain, boring box. (actually I'm getting in on a volume deal for a very pretty case, but no glowing lights.)
I'm not being entirely honest, I've listened to tube systems before, but it was way back in the day. Once was at Adire Audio. The sound was rich, almost syrupy.
I understand that tubes can be made to be transparent, but then what's the point of that since SS, especially now, does that so much better? Transparency with tubes is like making Pepsi taste like water. No point.
I'd rather go this direction. And I don't have a lot of systems around me so I can't test with my wallet, the things I buy have to be a sure thing.
it is possible to have tube gear extremely transparent - yust as transparent as solid state, w/o sounding at all like solid state. good tubes has some soundstaging cues that i have never heard from solid state. and detail in spades... if you think tubes cannot be as transparent as solid state, or that making tubes sound "transparent" means making them lose what is nice about tubes - i.e.: making them sound like solid state - then you haven't heard what good tube equipment can do in a system...
regarding making pepsi taste like water, that would be a huge improvement, imo. but, then again, i haven't drunk soft drinks in 30 years - i prefer water! :green:
doug s.
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it is possible to have tube gear extremely transparent - yust as transparent as solid state, w/o sounding at all like solid state. good tubes has some soundstaging cues that i have never heard from solid state. and detail in spades... if you think tubes cannot be as transparent as solid state, or that making tubes sound "transparent" means making them lose what is nice about tubes - i.e.: making them sound like solid state - then you haven't heard what good tube equipment can do in a system...
regarding making pepsi taste like water, that would be a huge improvement, imo. but, then again, i haven't drunk soft drinks in 30 years - i prefer water! :green:
doug s.
Doug:
I couldn't have said it better! There is just so much misinformation as to what tubes sound or don't sound like. The nay sayers have been trying to bury tubes since the invent of transistors.
Class D amps are not taking the world by storm, although they are good for car stereo. What Mr. Clark needs to do is take the time to go to a well established Hi-Fi show, to emerse himself in what is out there as it will allow him to really hear first hand what it all sounds like.
Jim
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Doug:
I couldn't have said it better! There is just so much misinformation as to what tubes sound or don't sound like. The nay sayers have been trying to bury tubes since the invent of transistors.
Class D amps are not taking the world by storm, although they are good for car stereo. What Mr. Clark needs to do is take the time to go to a well established Hi-Fi show, to emerse himself in what is out there as it will allow him to really hear first hand what it all sounds like.
Jim
Interesting. So you've heard the Hypex Ncore amps that your posting in the thread about?
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Interesting. So you've heard the Hypex Ncore amps that your posting in the thread about?
No, I haven't, but I've heard many a Class D amp and to my ears, they're sterile (not in a good way), have a bit of grain in the HF, and do not have the soundstaging of other amps. My post never mentioned Hypex Ncore, just a reference to Class D amps in general. I would think that if Hypex Ncore hit it out with their design, that other than the maker himself telling us how good they are, that the likes of Absolute Sound, Stereophile or the countless other respected industry and hobby magazines would be all over it.
Call me skeptical that after so many years of Class D that there would such a revolutionary break through in their ability. Hey, I'm Dutch and would love it if a fellow Dutchman did make a breakthrough....
Point/Counterpoint, has Rclark heard them first hand or his he merely relying what he is reading about them?
Jim
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No, I haven't, but I've heard many a Class D amp and to my ears, they're sterile (not in a good way), have a bit of grain in the HF, and do not have the soundstaging of other amps. My post never mentioned Hypex Ncore, just a reference to Class D amps in general. I would think that if Hypex Ncore hit it out with their design, that other than the maker himself telling us how good they are, that the likes of Absolute Sound, Stereophile or the countless other respected industry and hobby magazines would be all over it.
Call me skeptical that after so many years of Class D that there would such a revolutionary break through in their ability. Hey, I'm Dutch and would love it if a fellow Dutchman did make a breakthrough....
Point/Counterpoint, has Rclark heard them first hand or his he merely relying what he is reading about them?
Jim
Saying that you heard a bunch of Class D amps that you didn't like is like me saying "I've heard a bunch of tube amps and they all stink". Which of course isn't true.
As for what Rclark has or hasn't heard I have no idea. I've heard A LOT of stuff and have owned a bunch of it too....
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Saying that you heard a bunch of Class D amps that you didn't like is like me saying "I've heard a bunch of tube amps and they all stink". Which of course isn't true.
As for what Rclark has or hasn't heard I have no idea. I've heard A LOT of stuff and have owned a bunch of it too....
jt:
Just for the record, many have posted their thoughts in this thread who haven't actually heard them, so why are you singling me out? Let's be fair, okay?
Thanks,
Jim
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Let's be fair, okay?
Thanks,
Jim
OK. :thumb:
.......
Class D amps are not taking the world by storm, although they are good for car stereo. What Mr. Clark needs to do is take the time to go to a well established Hi-Fi show, to emerse himself in what is out there as it will allow him to really hear first hand what it all sounds like.
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it is possible to have tube gear extremely transparent - yust as transparent as solid state, w/o sounding at all like solid state. good tubes has some soundstaging cues that i have never heard from solid state. and detail in spades... if you think tubes cannot be as transparent as solid state, or that making tubes sound "transparent" means making them lose what is nice about tubes - i.e.: making them sound like solid state - then you haven't heard what good tube equipment can do in a system...
regarding making pepsi taste like water, that would be a huge improvement, imo. but, then again, i haven't drunk soft drinks in 30 years - i prefer water! :green:
doug s.
Great post Doug. :thumb:
Nobody who hears my tube based system (Atma-Sphere preamp and amps) thinks it lacks in detail and transparency. Yet it also excels in soundstage depth and dimensionality in a way that few ss amps can do.
BTW, I would love for the Hypex Ncore based amps to be everything people are hoping for. While I love my tubes, they produce a lot of heat and use a lot of electricity. If the performance level was close or equal to my Atma-Sphere gear I would switch in a heartbeat.
George
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jt:
So you don't think Rclark wouldn't benefit from exposure to as many systems as possible, like he would at a big hi-fi show? I know I would? I also gave a honest account of my first hand experience with class d, which echo's what others have said.
Again, let's be fair!
Jim
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jt:
So you don't think Rclark wouldn't benefit from exposure to as many systems as possible, like he would at a big hi-fi show? I know I would? I also gave a honest account of my first hand experience with class d, which echo's what others have said.
Again, let's be fair!
Jim
IMO we all benefit from as many legal life experiences as possible. :wink:
You gave a first hand experience with a certain brand. I wouldn't stereotype the topology that way if you haven't heard the good one. :D
BTW-this was before you joined from another AC member. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95588.msg1055880#msg1055880
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jt:
I read the thread in toto before I posted, so my join date is immaterial. You still haven't addressed why you felt the need to single me out when many others have also voiced their opinions who haven't actually heard the ncore?
Want to respond?
Jim
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There is no “free lunch” when it comes to reproducing a clean signal from the power amp to drive speakers. There is a very good reason a very well respected amp designer like Nelson “Papa” Pass has a large cache of mostly Class A designs available. As Papa says: “Class A amplifiers sound better”. It takes energy to get the best possible sound.
Engineers have been trying to tackle the amplifier efficiency problem for generations, with some success. The various topologies of Class AB, Class B, Class D, Class H, etc. are all attempts at getting more output power to the speakers while drawing less from the electrical source. For example, engineers at NAD, Luxman, Carver, Soundcraftsman all have a scheme where there are different “voltage rails” that switch when a large power demand is made on the amp by the speakers.
While these are all neat engineering tricks from the minds of clever people, they are not perfect. The downsides of these various approaches are that they involve some “switching” of the amplifier to create and transfer the waveform to the speakers. Class D without question has a lot more switching going on than most other topologies. A linear power supply will help this out some, but certainly does not eliminate them. The amp design itself works on switching, so they will always be there.
I’ve listened to a lot of Class D amps (I also owned a Rowland Class D amp for a bit), and to me, they all fall short of true high fidelity reproduction. They remind me of a upper range mid fi AV receiver. The Class D amps I’ve heard to date have a much different sonic signature from something along the lines of a Papa Pass Class A amp, for example. That’s not to say that at some point they catch up and become indistinguishable from a good Class AB amp, but do not think they are there yet. My personal preference is Class A solid state, followed by tube amps.
Now, some folks will obviously disagree with this, and that is fine. We all have our preferences on sound reproduction, and what one person overlooks a particular aspect as a non issue, another person will dislike that same aspect of the reproduced sound. (E.G. Vinyl vs. High Resolution Digital Audio debate).
Here is link regarding Class D sound:
http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf (http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf)
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Pass labs got beat too. :)
you guys should do your homework before you weigh in, this is not same old story, this is game changer.
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Beat on what aspect? Marketing hype maybe, but not actual quality.
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Tell that to the guy who compare it to his Pass amp, an Aleph. :D
Seriously, go read that thread. It's worth your time.
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Beat on what aspect? Marketing hype maybe, but not actual quality.
+1
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Where's the marketing? I haven't seen any ads yet have you :lol: :lol:
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Rclark have you heard one yet?
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Wouldn't I have mentioned that by now if I had? :)
just smart enough to want some, that's all.
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Have you ordered yet? If so can you share your design/chassis plan?
I want to try them too btw, just waiting to see what chassis and parts etc people are using & having success with. And for a few more reviews. I don't think people here aren't curious about the product, they're just doing their homework. Frankly as much as I am excited for it, we have all been down this road too many times with the be-all-end-all hyped products & technologies around here. At the end of the day, whether it's battery power, ob designs, the latest class D amp, or whatever...not every product thus far has worked for everyone. To believe in your heart that this is that product is fine, but the cautious people here aren't flat-earthers quite yet.
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There's a user there who has a group buy going for this really beautiful chassis. I'm going to get in on it.
I'll order the amps once they've got batches ready to deliver. I don't like paying for something that isn't ready to ship.
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How can we really weigh in on how it compares to a Pass without having listened to it? Pass certainly has great designs that pair well with many speakers. And I don't recall is the ncore comparison is with a Pass itself or a DIY clone (a very important distnction. Rawson clones for example don't hold a candle to Pass built First Watts IME).
And we should all know by now that proper speaker matchingis key too. The Aleph I had sadly wasn't a good fit with the speaker I had at the time, but other First Watts were stupendous.
Like any other amp ncores will have strengths and weaknesses (hopefully more strengths than weaknesses) and will pair more or less well with certain speakers.
Bring on the ncore reviews as opposed to sweeping generalizations about classes of amps.
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There's a user there who has a group buy going for this really beautiful chassis. I'm going to get in on it.
I'll order the amps once they've got batches ready to deliver. I don't like paying for something that isn't ready to ship.
"In wk18 we will have again stock. Indeed we are delivering the NC400 & SMPS600 based on paid orders we have received." - Jan-Peter at Hypex. So it sounds like you can place the order now, and it sounds by the excitement that if you wait til week 18 when new modules are released, they could be just about sold out.
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@ roscoe
It was an Aleph J. Pass wasn't even close to the most expensive compared.
These things don't have a "sound", that's kinda the whole point, and why they're cool.
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It was an Aleph J.
These things don't have a "sound", that's kinda the whole point, and why they're cool.
I've heard that before. Like I said above...
Frankly as much as I am excited for it, we have all been down this road too many times with the be-all-end-all hyped products & technologies around here. At the end of the day, whether it's battery power, ob designs, the latest class D amp, or whatever...not every product thus far has worked for everyone. To believe in your heart that this is that product is fine, but the cautious people here aren't flat-earthers quite yet.
And I am saying that as someone who is actively looking into building the Ncore.
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I don't know if the Hypex Ncore is a superior Class D implementation or not. A percentage of the buyers of the new modules are sophisticated audiophiles and DIYers and have existing UCDxxxHG amplifiers and other well-regarded Class A and A/B amplifiers, so comparisons will be forthcoming.
Channel Islands has built a successful (for a small company) amplifier line based on the UCD modules and has happy users, some who have also owned other well-regarded Class A and Class A/B amplifiers, so it is a viable technology for some.
I'm not naive, foolish or jaded enough to believe that no further innovations or future improvements are possible with Class D technology. Hype? Possibly, but let's wait and see what it may or may not deliver.
Steve
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There's a few people here, one even in this thread, but aren't commenting yet. Probably an amp to sell, my guess.
I dont believe it in my heart, lol, I just read a 300 page thread all user experiences. Mostly EE types. Doesn't really get any more credible.
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But is it a DIY or Pass built Aleph J?
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I would love if it someone built a stereo integrated amplifier using the Hypex NCore modules. Middle of the road cost mono blocks also okay of course.
The Theta $12000 mono blocks aren't really an option for many and many are also not the DIY types.
Does anyone know if equipment makers other than Theta have started signing up?
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I would love if it someone built a stereo integrated amplifier using the Hypex NCore modules.
I believe that Hypex will have their own.
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I believe that Hypex will have their own.
I don't think so. The impression I have is they are reselling to manufactures and selling direct to diy folk. If they make their own fully built amp they will be competing against their own customers. That said, I'm sure someone will bring an integrated to market. The thing is with the 400's and PS's costing $1300, and the OEM version being higher spec'd and slightly pricier, these aren't going to find their way into amps costing less than $3-7k I'd imagine...with $3k on the very low end.
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http://www.audiophilejournal.com/mola-mola-hypex-class-d-amplifier/
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But is it a DIY or Pass built Aleph J?
Not sure. I can dig it up later. The most impressive head to head was against a $20,000 Accuphase. To me at least, in dollar terms.
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...
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http://www.audiophilejournal.com/mola-mola-hypex-class-d-amplifier/
I stand corrected...except about the price, probably.
Do I want a brand new DAC, pretty functional pre-amp, and dual mono NCores? Yes I do.
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He is apparently also now working on a high performance dac.. And also a super transparent attenuator.
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He is apparently also now working on a high performance dac.. And also a super transparent attenuator.
Here's what Bruno had to say about attenuators. I don't have a clue what he's talking about, others here will.
"A pot as the feedback network around in inverting op amp circuit is the cleanest analogue volume control you can make. One I made with a 9mm car audio pot sounds completely transparent and with a decent op amp distortion is unmeasurable at all useful gain settings. For high input impedance, add an input buffer. For balanced input, make that an instrumentation amp. Actually the input circuit is more difficult to get right (as in "inaudible and unmeasurable") than the volume control section." - post 2939, with discussion and Q & A following.
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I stand corrected...except about the price, probably.
Do I want a brand new DAC, pretty functional pre-amp, and dual mono NCores? Yes I do.
and there's more coming too.
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If he's going to develop all those products, he might as well put them all together and make active speakers. Seems likely given his penchant for ultimate solutions.
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If he's going to develop all those products, he might as well put them all together and make active speakers.
already has
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See the Grimm audio LS1
http://www.grimmaudio.com/pro_loudspeakers_ls1.htm
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That Grimm speaker employs Hypex Ncore amps. Guido (OO-doh) Tent is designer/principal at Grimm Audio. He works closely with Bruno.
Guido is also principal at Tent Labs (Netherlands), maker of another well-received digital amp, power or integrated version, kit or assembled: tube input, transformer coupler, Hypex output (pretty sure pre-Ncore but don't quote me..I was surprised to see Ncore in this Grimm Speaker). A friend just bought the Tent Labs amp and he plans to bring it here shortly to compare to the Aksa NAKSA 100. Wish I had my Ncore to compare, which I ordered a few weeks ago (three for Trinaural).
I'm definitely not dropping my Ncore in a metal chassis, preferring wood. Bamboo ply is my current preference, being the choice of at least two premium speaker companies.
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Hopefully I'll still have the AKSA Naksa 100 after my little Ncore jewels arrive.
The last super high-quality amp I owned was 2011 Linn Chakra Majik 3100, 3x 57/100Wrms @ 8/4 Ohms...The only known upgrade to Chakra architecture since it arrived '99 (Klimax mono blocks) I know of is the switch from linear to SMPS. I had the SMPS. Chakra is unique. It employs a pure analog monolithic chip. Chips have better tolerance values compared to normal discrete circuits, but chips pass little current. Linn increased current capacity by adding bipolar transistors at the output. Chakra is like Quad's ancient "current dumping" but a chip replaces the discreet circuit.
I loved the Majik, even more than Atma-Sphere OTL, but needed more power. The 3x 114/200W 8/4 Ohm Linn Akurate is about $5500.
The Majik amp is gone now. The Naksa 100 is in league with Chakra sound quality/pleasure best I can tell, but they have a different gestalt. If I had to pick a winner I'd lean to Naksa 100, less noise (between and with the notes), and treble maybe best I've heard, cymbals and overall percussion effects pop in the stage very much like live, leading edge transients super quick yet completely natural. Both amps fatigue free all day. Naksa plays louder I think. I think the Naksa has a slight fingerprint, something I never heard in the Majik...yet there be a more natural effect with the Naksa. Kind of like a tube sound effect, but extremely faint, much less than any tube regardless of cost (I always hear tube noise with all-tube amps...not saying I can't adjust to it and like the amp, but it's there and most noticeable when you first hear it...well, maybe not the $150k Lamm monos with Wilson speakers at 2012 CES, but c'mon, what do you expect at that price?)
Naksa 100 vs. Ncore a great rumble! (both in stereo only because the Naksa 100 is stereo)
Re. Bruno enjoying conversation, and not being afraid to call designers out for shoddy design: I've been around James Bongiorno quite a bit. James, um, has strong opinions of most everything related to audio design in general, and power amp in particular. If you don't know his history, check it. He's one of the high end's original inventors. In the early 2000s at CES when James won the High End Audio Technology Award (for Trinaural) he had a conversation with one of the head designers at Meridian (IIRC) and was just openly mocking their test equipment, which James considered to be from the stone age.
I would pay money to hear a conversation between James and Bruno. It would be quite interesting because James is really into the hard science of test specifications, which it seems Bruno is also. James one of analog's originals, Bruno with similar record (though shorter) in the digital realm.
ETA next batch Ncore is week 11, starts Monday 18 March!
Hi James,
Well this brings up a few topics. For starters, I have a bit of familiarity with the "Son of Ampzilla" amp out of the mid to late .70's. I had at that time purchase a Mitsubishi amplifier, took it to a dealer and compared it to the ampzilla amp. As far as I could tell, the Mitsubishi was in the same league as the ampzilla, and much much more stable.
As far as James Bongiorno himself, i had yet to meet an amplifier designer that isn't opinionated.
Secondly, on the Naksa amp, I was debating getting that one. I was also debating on getting the ClassD amp, 440S, which was a refined 450 and 470S amp, more conseratively rated. Now this new Hypex is out, I'll wait to get more info and hopefully since you have the Naksa, I'll watch this thread for a comparison. Thanks for taking your valuable time to do this.
Ray Bronk
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it is possible to have tube gear extremely transparent - yust as transparent as solid state, w/o sounding at all like solid state. good tubes has some soundstaging cues that i have never heard from solid state. and detail in spades... if you think tubes cannot be as transparent as solid state, or that making tubes sound "transparent" means making them lose what is nice about tubes - i.e.: making them sound like solid state - then you haven't heard what good tube equipment can do in a system...
regarding making pepsi taste like water, that would be a huge improvement, imo. but, then again, i haven't drunk soft drinks in 30 years - i prefer water! :green:
doug s.
I went to St. Louis last weekend to a longtime audiophile friend. He has owned a bunch of Class A and tube amps over the years. His latest combo of the TBI Millenia Class D amp and Eximus DP1 Dac is the most transparent combo he has ever owned. The detail and transparency is out of sight, especially with the TBI on a battery. I took an AMR audiophile fuse with me and put that in the amp, there was even more tranparency and hall ambiance coming through. I never knew just a fuse would do that.
Nobody will ever complain that there is no tubes in the signal path of his system, that is how good his TBI-Eximus combo sounds. We tried his combo on Anthony Gallo Classico 4, Tonian TL-D1, and Rethm Trishna loudspeakers.
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See the Grimm audio LS1
http://www.grimmaudio.com/pro_loudspeakers_ls1.htm
Those Grimm LS1's looks very interesting, do you have any ideas of the US price?
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Those Grimm LS1's looks very interesting, do you have any ideas of the US price?
$15,495
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$15,495
Ouch! I guess that rules those babies out.
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Ray,
Cost is one of several reasons I chose Ncore over Aksa.
Two Aksa NAKSA 100 channels (two Aksa boards, one transformer, chassis) cost $2k+, same as 3x Ncore amps + 3x SMPS600. I estimate about $4500 for 3x Aksa mono mono blocks.
But if I had three NAKSA 100s sitting here now I'd be happy and would never directly compare another amp unless I had money to upgrade.
Ncore my be my final amps. Suitable high-performance amps have been the worst thorn in my audiophile journey. If Ncore achieves even a good percent of its promised performance it is the biggest audiophile bargain of all time, and will make its place in audiophile history.
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Yeah one definitely gets the sense of a turning point with these. I just hope those ahead of me can document their builds really well and take clear pictures. I've built crossovers, but monoblocks in a chassis will be more than a little intimidating.
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If Ncore achieves even a good percent of its promised performance it is the biggest audiophile bargain of all time, and will make its place in audiophile history.
The operative word is "If"
Jim
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I'm holding out for the next generation of class-d amps. Supposed to be the end-all, be-all...from what I hear. :lol:
-Jim
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The operative word is "If"
Jim
Yes, absolutely.
Beyond the posted user notes, my friend who visits Europe regularly for business, owns the Naksa 100 in my use now. He's heard this system and I'm familiar with his preferences (former owner $100k/pr Dynaudio Evidence Master, two Plinius SA250W Mk3 pure class A in mono mode, dCS $50k+ three-box with external clock...btw, he says, and I'm sure I'd agree because I've heard the Plinius SA250 Mk3 over 100x and owned the SA50, the Naksa 100 annihilates his two Plinius 250W, which are estimate 500W in mono mode as he used them).
He just purchased Guido (OO-doh) Tent's Tent Labs Hypex-based amp (tube input/transformer coupler, bypasses Hypex OEM input stage...Guido is friends with Bruno, both ex-Philips employees IIRC). Earlier my friend did direct A-B with the Naksa 100 and he preferred the Tent Labs amp by "30%" (similar attributes only more). Guido is principal at Grimm Audio where he already designed a powered Ncore speaker. In phone conversation Guido expressed high praise for Ncore when I mentioned it.
I'm also very familiar with Atma-Sphere OTL, having helped setup at CES many times, and having heard it in my room. Two A-S OTL owners already expressed their preference in direct A-B, one OTL owner also owner of highly regarded SS class A amps.
I have never in my life spent money like this sound-unheard.
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Ray,
Cost is one of several reasons I chose Ncore over Aksa.
Two Aksa NAKSA 100 channels (two Aksa boards, one transformer, chassis) cost $2k+, same as 3x Ncore amps + 3x SMPS600. I estimate about $4500 for 3x Aksa mono mono blocks.
But if I had three NAKSA 100s sitting here now I'd be happy and would never directly compare another amp unless I had money to upgrade.
Ncore my be my final amps. Suitable high-performance amps have been the worst thorn in my audiophile journey. If Ncore achieves even a good percent of its promised performance it is the biggest audiophile bargain of all time, and will make its place in audiophile history.
Hi james, I was somehow under the impression that you already had a Naksa 100 amp. If that be the case, I think you should have no trouble selling it if! the Ncore is better than the Naksa. Of course, Hugh does make better amps than the Naksa, at unfortunately much higher price. So this will be interesting to watch.
Ray Bronk
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Ray,
Yes, I've got one stereo Naksa 100, and it's awesome, fantastic. Being a Trinaural devote, I need three amp channels.
I have a 3-ch 120W YBA-designed Audio Refinement Multi-3 with a few barely-invasive upgrades.
You probably missed my earlier notes: in stereo the Naksa wipes the floor with YBA, steals/eats YBA's lunch, dates YBA's sister against YBAs wishes, etc...yet, Trinaural is so much superior to stereo, that I much prefer Trinaural-YBA L/C/R over Naksa-stereo L/R (Trinaural bypassed).
There are three identical monitors across the front (actually six, two per channel, in a unique ambiance array about which I will post images and describe after I finish the stands) + four distributed sub array. Stereo input/10-speaker 3.1 output! Whoopee!
Interestingly, for reasons about which I can only speculate, in Trinaural, Naksa-center/YBA L-R is almost unlistenable, while conversely, Naksa L-R/YBA center works very well, much better than YBA L/C/R. Go figure.
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I had a Fisher Tube receiver back in the 70's that I rescued from a Pawn Shop in City of Torrance, CA that had a center channel. It was pretty fun...I had a pair of JBL L100's with the center channel being a JBL L66.
For the life of me, I cannot recall the model designation...
Jim
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Ray,
Yes, I've got one stereo Naksa 100, and it's awesome, fantastic. Being a Trinaural devote, I need three amp channels.
I have a 3-ch 120W YBA-designed Audio Refinement Multi-3 with a few barely-invasive upgrades.
You probably missed my earlier notes: in stereo the Naksa wipes the floor with YBA, steals/eats YBA's lunch, dates YBA's sister against YBAs wishes, etc...yet, Trinaural is so much superior to stereo, that I much prefer Trinaural-YBA L/C/R over Naksa-stereo L/R (Trinaural bypassed).
There are three identical monitors across the front (actually six, two per channel, in a unique ambiance array about which I will post images and describe after I finish the stands) + four distributed sub array. Stereo input/10-speaker 3.1 output! Whoopee!
Interestingly, for reasons about which I can only speculate, in Trinaural, Naksa-center/YBA L-R is almost unlistenable, while conversely, Naksa L-R/YBA center works very well, much better than YBA L/C/R. Go figure.
Hi James,
Well, not to far off topic here, but that might be a question to delve in to with Hugh. Never heard of trinaural. I've heard of binaural. I think someone did some work with that in the late .70's and early .80's without to much success. Anyhow, back to Hypex. Yes, I did read your earlier post about having three Naksas. We should have a discussion about the trinaural stuff somewhere else.
Ray Bronk
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I had a Fisher Tube receiver back in the 70's that I rescued from a Pawn Shop in City of Torrance, CA that had a center channel. It was pretty fun...I had a pair of JBL L100's with the center channel being a JBL L66.
For the life of me, I cannot recall the model designation...
Jim
Hi Jim,
Gee, in the .70's and until they went out of business, I used to hang around Dimentions In Stereo there in the old town mall. Ike Goldman had a lot of patents regarding a way a speaker was built, with Don Fric and mark and Lauren. oh well, those were some good and bad old days. Sorry to be off topic.
I was a few years ago gonna get some Hypex amps, but the input was flawed. Its weakness like the earlier digital stuff was its highend. Plus the power supply was to slow to really do that amp justice. i'm glad the new ones seems to have solved that problem.
Ray Bronk
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Hi Ray:
The Pawn Shop was in old Torrance, the Olde Time Mall is on Hawthorne Blvd. I used to go to a Stereo Store right across from Gable House Bowl, also in Torrance. There was also Pacific Stereo and University Stereo.
I too apologize for straying off topic!
Jim
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I have never in my life spent money like this sound-unheard.
Funny. I've done the same thing. And sold my usual amp as well. :duh:
This weird behavior has been based, in part, upon my experience with a little ICE 125ASX2 amp. Having owned a much earlier class D amp, the ICE convinced me class D in general has turned a corner. Of course, the best implementations of ICE include custom input stages and power regulation. No one seems to say that the ICE can stand on its own to reach an audiophile standard.
On the other hand, that is exactly what folks are saying about the Ncore. That got my attention. And they are comparing it with some very nice amps. If you chat with these folks they will say things like "my buddy has an xxxx (amp I could never afford) and he just bought the Ncore after hearing mine." And "I had a xxx (amp known to cause euphoria in audiophiles) and the Ncore just replaced it."
So, yes, do be cautious and wait for the reports to come in. That only makes sense. But let the early adopters do their thing in the face of logic. :lol:
Phil
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Pacific Stereo...ADS L1030 and Braun equivalent...to die for back in the day.
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Funny. I've done the same thing. And sold my usual amp as well. :duh:
This weird behavior has been based, in part, upon my experience with a little ICE 125ASX2 amp. Having owned a much earlier class D amp, the ICE convinced me class D in general has turned a corner. Of course, the best implementations of ICE include custom input stages and power regulation. No one seems to say that the ICE can stand on its own to reach an audiophile standard.
On the other hand, that is exactly what folks are saying about the Ncore. That got my attention. And they are comparing it with some very nice amps. If you chat with these folks they will say things like "my buddy has an xxxx (amp I could never afford) and he just bought the Ncore after hearing mine." And "I had a xxx (amp known to cause euphoria in audiophiles) and the Ncore just replaced it."
So, yes, do be cautious and wait for the reports to come in. That only makes sense. But let the early adopters do their thing in the face of logic. :lol:
Phil
Are there not always early adopters for anything and are they always wrong? The only reason I see to be skeptical about these Ncores is if you have a spent a lot of money on amps, especially recently. Because now you are permanently locked in. They might say skepticism, I would say denial.
Clearly, if you've read what's available so far, including that thread, and the now several credible user reports, it is not hard to draw the conclusion that these are what they are.
I honestly feel very bad for people with very expensive amps, and for whom money is a critical issue, because as word continues to get out about these, and it is reasonable to assume that reviews will continue to be in the same vein, those people will not be able to re-sell their old amps for anything close to what they think they should get. Give it six months.
It's pretty painless for me, I'm moving up from a Virtue Two. But certain others commenting here, sure, they're skeptical as hell. I'm skeptical as to whether they realize it's very likely possible their $10,000 amps just became a $1000 amps, or less, overnight.
There is the diy aspect to it, and that is probably somewhat a saving grace.... For the time being at least.
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Here's what Bruno had to say about attenuators. I don't have a clue what he's talking about, others here will.
"A pot as the feedback network around in inverting op amp circuit is the cleanest analogue volume control you can make. One I made with a 9mm car audio pot sounds completely transparent and with a decent op amp distortion is unmeasurable at all useful gain settings. For high input impedance, add an input buffer. For balanced input, make that an instrumentation amp. Actually the input circuit is more difficult to get right (as in "inaudible and unmeasurable") than the volume control section." - post 2939, with discussion and Q & A following.
Hi, Well, how about this idea of the Ncore amp, and choose your design, such as the Optocoupler discussed in the cheap and cheerful circle. Add one of those babies, the amp, a good source, good speeks of your choice, and you're set for life. That system will be hard to beat at any price.
Ray Bronk
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Ray,
Check the huge DIY audio thread. Some there think LDRs aren't a great match with the ncore.
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Ray,
Check the huge DIY audio thread. Some there think LDRs aren't a great match with the ncore.
Hello, Ok, i certainly will check the DIY thread. Thanks for the leak.
Ray Bronk
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Ray,
Check the huge DIY audio thread. Some there think LDRs aren't a great match with the ncore.
This is true, as those who might not want their system as a 'straight wire with gain' know better than to post their views.
Consider the LDR based attenuators discussed in various threads, both here an AC as well as DIYaudio The subjective comments in both continually describe them as 'transparent'. But to the engineers at DIYaudio, the LDR is anything but a transparent device. Even with a perfect level controlling adjustable power supply, the LDR is an inherently high distortion device. Its immediately eliminated as appropriate for a system representing that 'straight wire with gain' ideal. Sadly, both objectivists and subjectivists use the same terminology, such as 'transparent' referring to system metrics.
Regardsless, the Ncore potentially provides an attractive solution for moderate cost amplification for both the subjectivists and the objectivists. The former can simply provide their subjective preferences via flanking components.
FWIW
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Hi, Well, how about this idea of the Ncore amp, and choose your design, such as the Optocoupler discussed in the cheap and cheerful circle. Add one of those babies, the amp, a good source, good speeks of your choice, and you're set for life. That system will be hard to beat at any price.
Ray Bronk
A great sounding Dac that has a built-in preamp would be a fantastic choice. Two great ones are the Eximus DP-1 and the AMR DP777. With the AMR, you have a remote volume control. The money that is saved on the amps can go towards a nicer Dac.
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But to the engineers at DIYaudio, the LDR is anything but a transparent device. Even with a perfect level controlling adjustable power supply, the LDR is an inherently high distortion device.
Yes, it was this high distortion that made posters at DIYaudio suggest that the LDR was not a good match IIRC.
Good luck wading into that huge thread Ray. I believe that one of the posts there links to some of the LDR distortion measurements. But I just don't have the time to go searching for it right now.
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Are there not always early adopters for anything and are they always wrong? The only reason I see to be skeptical about these Ncores is if you have a spent a lot of money on amps, especially recently. Because now you are permanently locked in. They might say skepticism, I would say denial.
Clearly, if you've read what's available so far, including that thread, and the now several credible user reports, it is not hard to draw the conclusion that these are what they are.
I honestly feel very bad for people with very expensive amps, and for whom money is a critical issue, because as word continues to get out about these, and it is reasonable to assume that reviews will continue to be in the same vein, those people will not be able to re-sell their old amps for anything close to what they think they should get. Give it six months.
It's pretty painless for me, I'm moving up from a Virtue Two. But certain others commenting here, sure, they're skeptical as hell. I'm skeptical as to whether they realize it's very likely possible their $10,000 amps just became a $1000 amps, or less, overnight.
There is the diy aspect to it, and that is probably somewhat a saving grace.... For the time being at least.
Wow, a lot of hate in what you just said. I will never feel sorry for anyone who has paid for stereo gear that has transformed their music into a true experience. The world is not going to stop even if the Ncore lives up to any of its own self hype. More to the point, there will not be a depreciation of high end gear as we know it.
History is history and the same was said about transistor technology over-passing true analog (vacuum tube) technology, yet some of the most revered and expensive amps are still true analog.
Class D will find its way into the main stream and will be a viable product and will augment what is already established and rooted.
What I get a chuckle about is that the biggest proponent is someone who hasn't even heard the Ncore in person, let alone ordered a pair to build.
Finally, it is not about denial or skepticism, but rather being rational and seeing if the self promotion bears fruit or not
Jim
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I decided to purchase two new stereo Quad Premiere Elite QSP (released early 2012, upgrade/refinement of model "909" current dumping power amp produced 99 to 2011). I encountered a particular roadblock to the purchase.
Return to update the decades-old short list of preferred amps.
Amongst the best I heard were Dan Wright's ModWright KSA150SE (estimate $6500...I hoped to discover the lower powered 100W was similarly refined ), and Aesthetix hybrid, about $12k. I'd need two stereo amps. No way I could afford either of these particular amps.
With a few short days after the QSP did not pan out I discovered the Ncore amps did not need a transformer, which I earlier thought to be the case, and also the user comments finally appeared.
Boy am I glad the QSP did not pan out!
If Ncore appears before 16 April I will A-B with two highly regarded 60 lb SS USA-made mono blocks, $7500/pr, current model arrived 2011. I'm really looking forward that that.
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Class D will find its way into the main stream and will be a viable product and will augment what is already established and rooted.
Jim
This makes sense to me. Personally, I also like the visual look of a component and always get interested in beautiful gear that is said to sound great.
Perhaps it comes down to pride of ownership. That pride can come from price/performance ratio, or looks, or price -- high or low -- (or all of these). Isn't enjoying the hobby the important part and aren't we all going to do so by different means?
That said, I also cheer for any component that can re-define a category. Having read about KEF's blade, I wonder if that product will do so for speakers. And perhaps the Ncore will for amps. Who knows? At any rate, let's hope there continues to be experimenting in the hope of besting the best and that there are lots of alternatives to keep folks happy and the industry healthy.
Phil
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I hope it works out to be a great sounding amplifier. I must say I wouldn't mind having a more efficient amplfier that would not only contribute to a greener planet, but would also greatly reduce my own monetary investment into the 400W - 500W power consumption AT IDLE of a typical high-performance, high-power pair of Class A/B monoblocks.
Steve
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Jim, there's no "hate", just my thoughts. If the Ncore matches and beats top of the line, nobody in their right mind will pay huge dollars for an amp. Common sense. The Diy situation currently is just stalling the inevitable, but this is the beginning of a downward trend in amps. There are already people who have sold their amps quick, nice amps, because of these.
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I heard the Blade in a great demo, and talked with someone at KEF about a forthcoming review. The Blade is absolutely a game changer. It loads the room with a unique and highly pleasurable wavefront. Speakers like Magico's latest Q9, Wilson's latest, and Vandersteen's 5A Carbon are very nice in many ways, but all starkly omit the Blade's unique and gorgeous wavefront/radiation/room-loading qualities.
IMO room loading performance is the last frontier in loudspeaker advancement. Well, maybe miniaturization, after room loading.
What is the reaction in a store if you enter to compare two Ncore monos (1 lb each, both under one arm as you skip in whistling, AC cords taking up equal or more space vs. the amps) to two 125 lb ea McIntosh auto-transformer-equipped mono blocks?
Not everyone wants to assemble their own DIY Ncore amp. I wonder what are legal liabilities for a store that buys and assembles DIY Ncore for sale? $3k for two state of the art mono blocks seems like a reasonable price. Maybe a couple hours of assembly total. IIRC two of Dusty's CI Audio 200W pre-Ncore Hypex based monos are about $4k.
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Not everyone wants to assemble their own DIY Ncore amp. I wonder what are legal liabilities for a store that buys and assembles DIY Ncore for sale? $3k for two state of the art mono blocks seems like a reasonable price. Maybe a couple hours of assembly total. IIRC two of Dusty's CI Audio 200W pre-Ncore Hypex based monos are about $4k.
Maybe Kevin Haskins can answer your question?
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Not everyone wants to assemble their own DIY Ncore amp. I wonder what are legal liabilities for a store that buys and assembles DIY Ncore for sale?
This is an interesting question given the Hypex strategy of DIY for the lower (not low) power amp. Seems that a skilled DIYer could go into business selling completed amps. Or will one of the smaller manufactures known for amps/preamps try adding their own magic sauce to the amp and sell at a slightly higher price. Could be interesting.
If the Ncore is indeed a disruptive technology, the DIY approach is no less so.
The low energy use, lightness and smallness will appeal widely, IMHO.
Phil
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Hypex is getting around this by not selling in quantity. There is a limit to the number that can be ordered I believe.
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I was going to suggest some intrepid hobbyist could probably make some money turning out completed nc400's.
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...If the Ncore matches and beats top of the line, nobody in their right mind will pay huge dollars for an amp. Common sense...
nobody in their right mind, except us audiophiles. same as it ever was. :lol:
doug s.
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Oh, right, the 'phools :lol:
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Even if these new Ncore amps were perfect they would not be appropriate for everyones system for the simple reason that virtually everyone has a combination of non-linear components. The hoped for final result involves a series of haphazard zigs and zags that ends in a system one is satisfied in listening to.
If the amp IS closer to a straight wire with gain some people with a more linear combination of gear may find it a big improvement over what they are currently using. For other people it will reveal everything that is wrong with their up stream components.
Non-linear amplifiers will never go out of style because the rest of the chain up-stream from them will always contain a mix components with their own set of problems that need to be compensated for in some way.
Scotty
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If they sound as good as they are claimed too, they would be a cool solution for fully active speakers. You could bolt them to a miniDSP, mount them in the speakers, and have one channel drive the tweeter, the other one the midrange, then just drop a pair of servo subs in there for the bass and you are set!
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@ Scotty:
For me, I understand that these will be far better than the rest of my gear, barring the Octocoupler. Bearing that in mind, I have no problem building my system around them. I think this is the kind of hardware that forces you to look at the rest of your system as has been shown by some user reports.
I like Bruno's philosophy about systems and the whole system merry go round. Says people often buy gear according to a pleasant "sound" they impart to the music. Then they get bored and begin seeking to improve that pleasantness with new gear. With a truly transparent system you can't get bored. At that point you are listening to the music and not your hodgepodge of tweaks.
Paraphrasing. But I dig it.
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Someone is still green behind the ears. But weren't we all at some point!
Jim
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Even if these new Ncore amps were perfect they would not be appropriate for everyones system for the simple reason that virtually everyone has a combination of non-linear components. The hoped for final result involves a series of haphazard zigs and zags that ends in a system one is satisfied in listening to.
If the amp IS closer to a straight wire with gain some people with a more linear combination of gear may find it a big improvement over what they are currently using. For other people it will reveal everything that is wrong with their up stream components.
Non-linear amplifiers will never go out of style because the rest of the chain up-stream from them will always contain a mix components with their own set of problems that need to be compensated for in some way.
Scotty
AKA Linn founder Ivor Tiefenbrun's so-called "Audio Hierarchy." For instance, with Linn's LP12 TT, the user was warned of the necessity to install the best arm before installing the best cartridge. Similarly, Naim recommended the user must employ the best preamp and best PS upgrade before upgrading to the best power amp.
It's indeed thoroughly illogical to consider amps like Ncore without premium gear upstream.
Then there's always the software quality. Music not well-recorded and/or recorded on inferior equipment is "listenable" on my system, but does not satisfy like music well recorded on superb equipment. Not much you can do about that.
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And some of us are hopelessly fossilized :lol:
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Someone is still green behind the ears. But weren't we all at some point!
Jim
+1
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You dont need experience to see the forest for the trees, just brains.
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Someone is still green behind the ears. But weren't we all at some point!
Jim
Very true - but then again, many (most?) try to learn something before speaking out of school.
-Jim
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Yes, it was this high distortion that made posters at DIYaudio suggest that the LDR was not a good match IIRC.
Good luck wading into that huge thread Ray. I believe that one of the posts there links to some of the LDR distortion measurements. But I just don't have the time to go searching for it right now.
Hey Roscoe, are you saying the Octomom and other LDR's are not suitable for use in this "miracle" amp because they are distortion machines? There is a thread on this site with people "gushing" about how they transformed their systems with the LDR. Apparently they have not seen the distortion comments on DIY. :lol:
Either way, this thread is LAME. I don't get excited about things based on manufacturer's claims. Call me old fashioned but I like to at least wait until I hear something myself or at least have a couple people hear it in person before proclaiming it a "game changer". There is enough hype in this hobby as it is. Do we really have a 19 page thread about an amp almost no one has heard or seen in person? :scratch:
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Very true - but then again, many (most?) try to learn something before speaking out of school.
-Jim
That would mean actually going out and listening to something before proclaiming it a "game changer" or miracle technology. It's easier to just read the words of the designer and conclude all existing products are obsolete. :thumb:
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Then there's always the software quality. Music not well-recorded and/or recorded on inferior equipment is "listenable" on my system, but does not satisfy like music well recorded on superb equipment. Not much you can do about that.
Yep, the better the system gets, the less software there is worth listening to.
It will become a must of owning two systems, one for your well recorded software and one for the inferior software.
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This subject is sure to piss a lot of people off. There are people here who have heard it. Hell go to the for trading post and see what Mgalushsa sold his Atmasphere's for. Guess what? Ncores.
..is that credible enough for you?
:lol: :green:
It's enough for me!
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You dont need experience to see the forest for the trees, just brains.
One sad thing rclark. If these Ncores are as good as you think they are, your AC/DC and other such rock music is going to sound like crap. The Ncores are never going to make AC/DC sound any better, only worse.
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If they sound as good as they are claimed too, they would be a cool solution for fully active speakers. You could bolt them to a miniDSP, mount them in the speakers, and have one channel drive the tweeter, the other one the midrange, then just drop a pair of servo subs in there for the bass and you are set!
Two things come to mind.
I can't help but think the resonance inherent inside a speaker cabinet, no matter what is done to minimize it, severely impedes performance. The best performing audio components take extreme measures to combat air-borne and mechanical resonance. Resonance inside a speaker cabinet must be 10-100x worse than anywhere else. There's no worse place for a DAC and amp.
If I had powered speakers I'd be extremely interested in replacing their amps with Ncore. The more costly the speaker, the higher would be my interest. Powered pro studio monitors run to the $50k-$100k/pr range. Whatever is the OEM amp, it is likely at least one or two clear steps below Ncore.
Completely unrelated to the above, I'm glad the only amp I'll have for sale after my Ncore trio arrives is a mid-priced 3-ch.
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@ Scotty:
For me, I understand that these will be far better than the rest of my gear, barring the Octocoupler. Bearing that in mind, I have no problem building my system around them. I think this is the kind of hardware that forces you to look at the rest of your system as has been shown by some user reports.
I like Bruno's philosophy about systems and the whole system merry go round. Says people often buy gear according to a pleasant "sound" they impart to the music. Then they get bored and begin seeking to improve that pleasantness with new gear. With a truly transparent system you can't get bored. At that point you are listening to the music and not your hodgepodge of tweaks.
Paraphrasing. But I dig it.
BINGO!!! We have a winner :lol:
Read below....
Ray,
Check the huge DIY audio thread. Some there think LDRs aren't a great match with the ncore.
This is true, as those who might not want their system as a 'straight wire with gain' know better than to post their views.
Consider the LDR based attenuators discussed in various threads, both here an AC as well as DIYaudio The subjective comments in both continually describe them as 'transparent'. But to the engineers at DIYaudio, the LDR is anything but a transparent device. Even with a perfect level controlling adjustable power supply, the LDR is an inherently high distortion device. Its immediately eliminated as appropriate for a system representing that 'straight wire with gain' ideal. Sadly, both objectivists and subjectivists use the same terminology, such as 'transparent' referring to system metrics.
Regardsless, the Ncore potentially provides an attractive solution for moderate cost amplification for both the subjectivists and the objectivists. The former can simply provide their subjective preferences via flanking components.
FWIW
Rclark,
You've just made my point. When I talked about the distortion of LDR based attenuators, I should'nt expect you to understand I was referring to your Optocoupler; which is an LDR based attenuator. This is not to say that your subjective evaluation of the Optocoupler as transparent, resolving, etc.... isn't perfectly valid, but if you think it part of a 'straight wire with gain' system, you are sadly mistaken. But without a solid technical foundation, your conclusions as to how assemble your 'Bruno Putzey's Tribute System' is perfectly understandable.
Any switched series, shunt, or ladder resistor attenuator, competently implemented, will show far less measurable distortion than your Optocoupler, as will most potentiometers.
Your plan is to feed the 'straight wire with gain' nCore, with your subjectively pleasing, high distortion, Optocoupler.
Indeed, you may 'dig it', but you've yet to 'get it'.
FWIW,
Paul
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Rclark - It would appear that your exasperating exuberance is being treated kindly and patiently by those you are annoying. That won't last forever.
Comments about you being green behind the ears are hints that you don't know what you are talking about not that you lack experience. You would be wise to put down your pom poms and listen and learn instead of trying to lead the conversation.
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Occam/Paul,
I hope this doesn't sound strange but you have become my favorite poster on AC. Your common sense approach is like a cold beer on a blazing hot day in the Sahara. I mean this with all sincerity. :thumb:
Thanks,
J
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Way ahead of you guys, like I said, I actually read the thread :green:. Im not vested in octos, if there s something better, I'll do I. So far it was better than the pot in my integrated and the digital control in my dac. Interested now in Bruno's attenuator. I have no problem dumping gear for something better. We'll see what that ends up being.
@ macrojack
Be exasperated. I couldn't care less what you think. :lol:
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Way ahead of you guys, like I said, I actually read the thread :green:. Im not vested in octos, if there s something better, I'll do I. So far it was better than the pot in my integrated and the digital control in my dac. Interested now in Bruno's attenuator. I have no problem dumping gear for something better. We'll see what that ends up being.
Be exasperated. I couldn't care less what you think. :lol:
You will care when your music sounds like crap.
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Btw, no more a distorter than your tube preamplifier apparently. Ooooh.
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Amazing post, Occam! :thumb:
-Jim
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Yep, the better the system gets, the less software there is worth listening to.
It will become a must of owning two systems, one for your well recorded software and one for the inferior software.
That's funny you wrote exactly what I was thinking too!
I'll say this: when listening to the abject dregs of recordings (Sixpence None The Richer comes to mind, dynamic range of barely .5 dB I'd bet), one gets a vision of the musical personalities/proclivities associated with the artists and producers: careless, lazy, naive or worse, disappointing, deaf, being a few choice qualifiers that come to mind.
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Thanks Paul/Occam and Macrojack, you put into words what I've been trying to say for a while
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Btw, no more a distorter than your tube preamplifier apparently. Ooooh.
This is absolutely true. :thumb:
But I'm not doctrinaire about it. I very much enjoy my CAT SL-1 preamp (10 tubes including phono stage) as well as my EAR Acute III CD player/Dac (2 tubes, albeit Siemens). But you miss my point. When you weren't aware that your Optocoupler is a high distortion attenuator, you thought it totally appropriate for your low distortion uber alles paradigm system. I still think a LDR feeding an Ncore amp could be great, and I certainly don't think its distortion should dissuade you from trying that very combination. Its well and good to implement your system by whatever rules you wish to follow, but when all is said and done, it is your subjective perception that determines your musical enjoyment. We are flawed creatures.... YMMV
FWIW,
Paul
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You will care when your music sounds like crap.
I'll make adjustments as needed. And hopefully I can get to Rmaf and get a good handle on preamps.
So far, so good. Haven't made any mistakes yet.
And thanks Occam. Hopefully I'll be able to accurately measure all this stuff as it goes down. We'll see.
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I'll make adjustments as needed. And hopefully I can get to Rmaf and get a good handle on preamps.
So far, so good. Haven't made any mistakes yet.
And thanks Occam. Hopefully I'll be able to accurately measure all this stuff as it goes down. We'll see.
I have been a rocker all my life, since the 50's. But unfortunately, very few rock recordings ever made are worthy of high-end audio systems. What I thought was great soumding back in the 60's, 70's, and 80's turned to mediocrity as my system advanced. I love the Beatles, Doors, Led Zeppelin, Stones, Fleetwood Mac, Boston etc. I still listen to rock on the radio, but never on my audiophile system.
So I have turned to Diana Krall, Melody Gardot, Judith Owen, Boz Scaggs, Norah Jones, and the like to listen and enjoy my audiophile system. I would need at least a highly distorted equalizer to be able to listen to my old rock groups.
If you ever go to RMAF, very rarely, will you ever hear any systems playing the 70's-80's rock. They are just not recorded well enough.
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I have been a rocker all my life, since the 50's. But unfortunately, very few rock recordings ever made are worthy of high-end audio systems. What I thought was great soumding back in the 60's, 70's, and 80's turned to mediocrity as my system advanced. I love the Beatles, Doors, Led Zeppelin, Stones, Fleetwood Mac, Boston etc. I still listen to rock on the radio, but never on my audiophile system.
So I have turned to Diana Krall, Melody Gardot, Judith Owen, Boz Scaggs, Norah Jones, and the like to listen and enjoy my audiophile system. I would need at least a highly distorted equalizer to be able to listen to my old rock groups.
If you ever go to RMAF, very rarely, will you ever hear any systems playing the 70's-80's rock. They are just not recorded well enough.
Tom:
There are a few bands that did record correctly, Steely Dan and Jethro Tull come to mind, but these aren't hard rock bands...
I agree that most of the rock from the 60's, 70's and 80's was a vast wasteland as analog boards gave way to SS and then to the early incarnation of Digital.
Jim
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http://www.audiophilejournal.com/mola-mola-hypex-class-d-amplifier/
Honestly, I want to try the Ncores also, but this Mola-Mola Amp-Dac-Pre excites me the most. No more interconnects and no more USB cables to ever color the sound. Maybe Bruno can hit a home run on this product also. I am going to hold out for this one.
I am sure he is working hard and fast to bring this out soon. Maybe it will be out by mid summer.
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.....
So far, so good. Haven't made any mistakes yet.....
:slap: Lawdy! How I envy you! My audio journey (and life in general) have been nothing BUT a series of mistakes, of greater and lesser import, as well as cost and time. But I do pride myself as not typically repeating those mistakes, coming up with new and original, dumbass mistakes. As a manufacturer, I have many thousands in custom prototype cable, that are simply mistakes. But these mistakes inevitably get me closer to what I am seeking. I rationalize these sequential, and ofttimes parallel, blunders under the heading of learning. YMMV
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Tom:
There are a few bands that did record correctly, Steely Dan and Jethro Tull come to mind, but these aren't hard rock bands...
I agree that most of the rock from the 60's, 70's and 80's was a vast wasteland as analog boards gave way to SS and then to the early incarnation of Digital.
Jim
You are right Jim. But the latest improvements in my system even makes Steely Dan's Aja very compressed sounding. I may not have the newer remastered version, I will double check and order that one.
SD "Two Against Nature" and Donald Fagan's "Morph the Cat" sounds fantastic. I have a fairly recent live recording of Jethro Tull Live, and that one sounds pretty nice also.
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I guess I'll live. Everything else will sound good. Plus I have system 2 which is my GR monitors and sub, the Virtue will go there. This Maggie/Ncore will be the serious rig, I guess.
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It has been my painful experience that it is the mistakes that you have made that you are blissfully unaware of that hurt the most when they finally come around and bite you in the ass.
I call it having a Homer moment. D'oh!
Too old for this sh** am I getting.
Scotty
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Occam: Good judgement comes from experience and Experience comes from bad judgement.
Go figure.
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I guess this topic has run its course.