[highendman]

I realize that the CDR re-writing technique is an inelegant solution compared to computer files.  I have read numerous handwaving arguments for the benefits of the technique about reducing jitter.  I'm interested in your technical input on why this technique can offer an overall improvement.  I am interested in any related links on the technical merits of the CDR technique.  Would it still offer an improvement if you are using a good jitterbug? 

I have done a good bit of experimenting with the technique -- first on my computer with various software, then I bought a good Plextor DVD RW drive and tried some more and then I bought a Cool Copy machine.  I have tried various CDRs and use Auric Illuminator and a Bedini spinner before burn. I use various tweeks with the CC machine.

On my reference CDs, I have yet to make a CDR which sounds better on my main system.  Some of the CDRs sound like improvements on my video system and in my car.  I hear differences in CDRs, optical fluids, Bedini treatment, tweaks in use done on my Cool Copy (I have yet to modify its power supply).  Yet, I have yet to yield a meaningful overall improvement.  Different flavors of sound are easy.  The Prodisc black yields an overly warm tonal balance in my system. To summarize the best results I've gotten:

CDR benefits:
Can sound less hashy and more quiet.
Can sound smoother and slightly more dimensional.

Drawbacks:
None have retained all of the dynamic or tonal vibrancy of the original CD.
None have offered an overall improvment of the original CD or are as satisfying.


The best I can achieve is a CDR which is very close to the original, but lacking just slightly in dynamic vibrancy.  Some of the CDRs sound better in my car or video system, but the main system shows off the lack of dynamic vibrancy.

[gooberdude]

hey highendman,

I'm always futzing with burning cd-r's...i think the set-up i have now sounds quite nice considering
my gear ain't all that.  The best burning tweak i've found is Mikrosmooth.  applied correctly prior to the burn, it does an amazing job (i think) of letting the laser work most accurately & efficiently.  The key that i've found is keeping the yellow scouring pad insanely clean - rinsing it clean before discs & rinsing even new from the spindle discs before applying MS.  I've also tried Optrix - sucked.

What model Cool Copy do you have?  I bought the sidebyside one that people raved about, think it sounds crappy though even with nice power cords and the little windows blocked out with tape.  My pc's internal NEC 3540 does a much, much better job to my ears.  if we have the same model Cool Copy (9168?), lemme know how to mod the psu.  I've tried selling mine - its only been used for 15 cd's in RAW mode - so at some point modding it might be fun.

GD

[highendman]

I have the side by side Cool Copy 9168.  I use it in the RAW copy mode, have the windows blacked out and usually use it with a VH type 4 cord w/ Highwire power wrap, with a VPI wood block and ERS on the power supply.  I run the ps umbilical through a Versa Lab Red Roller a number of turns before connecting to the device.  The CC and it's ps sit on isolation feet.  The cord is plugged into my BPT 2 ultra with Bybees.

It makes better copies than my computer, but the whole process has underwhelmed me and essentially just given me duplicates for the car.  It was never able to make a computer burn which didn't sound more electronic than the original.

If I get to the ps mods, I'll let you know the results.

Thanks for the tip about Mikrosmooth.   

[gooberdude]

We have the same model, so i have a few questions:  What's the Red Roller?   the reason i bought the 9168 was to tweak it, sounds like you've done it right!  the psu has its own stand?  try a mapleshade brass weight on it!

I tried mapleshade footers & those sounded terrible.  small maple blocks did better, but still.  After tooling around with it for a week or 2 i decided to mod my pc & I am soooooo glad i did.  if you want a stock 9168 for $100 (to tweak internally) lemme know.   

if you are really into burning, i do recomend going back to your pc.  however, if i were to do it all over again I'd spend $200 or so on a top end Plextor external burner rather than the 30 hrs inside my pc tweaking.  Then again, the good sound i now have is directly related to cleaning all the contacts, removing vibrations and installing nice cabling.   Plextoor seems to make the only high quality burners avail to folks at a reasonable cost, and their burn evaluator software seems top notch.

last question 'cuz i'm about to order some Venhaus cabling....the Flavor 4 design is twisted as to eliminate rfi/emi issues.    Did you experience a benefit from using the high wire wrap on the cable?   I'm about to build a Flavor 2 and a Flavor 4.

I have the BPT PPC.  their products are really well made, and that Demo CD is amazing.  being from st. louis its kinda cool to talk smack about the Lake of the Ozarks when ordering gear!

[audioengr]

To make really low jitter CD copies, it requires several things:

1) treat the CD-R with a good treatment/cleaning fluid so that it writes really well, before writing it
2) use a CD-R writer that has a special algorithm that elongates the pits, making them more readable
3) Write the copy at 1X speed
4) the copier should have a very low-jitter clock, such as a Superclock4
5) The copier should preferably be battery powered for best results
6) the best media that I have found is Mitsui Audio Master gold - available at
http://www.american-digital.com/prodsite/category.asp?c=51

If you do all of these, I guarantee that the copy will be a LOT better than the original.  I can do these for you as well if you like for $25 per disk.

[highendman]

gooberdude,

Make sure you use apply some good mechanical damping in your construction of the VH4.  I find the Highwire power wrap to be effective on digital power cords.  I use one on my transport power cord to good effect (the same cord I move over to the Cool Copy for burns).  Audioengr's suggestion for battery power for the burner makes great sense and makes the power cord and power supply a moot point.  A Versalab Red Roller is a ferrite-like device, but much larger and more effective.  I was just making a ferrite coil out of it.  They were designed to put IC's through (one per IC). 

Audioengr, thank you for the input. 

I'm also trying to get a good understanding why the technique could really work with reclocking in the system.  The jitter would have an effect via power supply intermodulation?

[mgalusha]

2) use a CD-R writer that has a special algorithm that elongates the pits, making them more readable

When Yamaha used to make CD writers one of the last they produced was the CDRW-F1 and it had the ability to write elongated pits. I had very good luck with CD-R's burned in these drives and IMO the results were almost always superior to the originals. Sadly Yamaha stopped producing CD writers and while others may offer this, I don't know of any off hand.

mike

[gooberdude]

Thanks highendman.  I'm gonna assemble my own cordage, not looking forward to cramming the F4 wires into the plugs - not even sure how they'll fit even.  been using dh labs cord for a while, time for a change.



can anyone clue me in if there's a mfgr besides Plextoor that makes well built external cd burners for computers?   a battery powered set-up would be the ultimate, no doubt.   my budget is $300 or so though.

The best cd-r i've heard is the Balanced Power Technology's demo cd.  Pro-Disc black cd-r from a modded Alesis Masterlink, not treated.    totally changed what i thought i knew about burning & how cd-r's sound, since i 'thought' i knew how the Pro Discs sounded.   

When i can i use an hhb 850 standalone, much more capable than any cd drive.  its not hooked up to my computer though & doesn't burn fast.

[FRANKe]

2) use a CD-R writer that has a special algorithm that elongates the pits, making them more readable

When Yamaha used to make CD writers one of the last they produced was the CDRW-F1 and it had the ability to write elongated pits. I had very good luck with CD-R's burned in these drives and IMO the results were almost always superior to the originals. Sadly Yamaha stopped producing CD writers and while others may offer this, I don't know of any off hand.

mike

I have a Plextor PlexWriter Premium and it has a few options for elongating pits. With PlexTools you can burn at 0.6x, 0.7x, or 0.8x. I have had pretty good results using 0.8x (80%) which is the closest to what Yamaha used. I think their elongation amounted to around 83% or 85%. On the Plextor, using 0.8x means you can only fit 58 minutes on a 74 minute disc. The Premium has long been discontinued, but a few months ago they released the Premium 2 in Japan and Europe (not yet available in the US). With the Premium 2, Plextor has licensed Yamaha's AMQR technology as well as adding the ability to burn at 2X (the Premium could only go as low as 4X). Should be interesting to see (hear) how this performs.

Also, I too have been using MAM-A Audio Master (Gold) CD-Rs, but with the latest batch I ordered, even though the label on the CD says "MAM-A Audio Master" they in fact have an MID from "Computer Support Italcard" rather than Mitsui. It seems Mitsui sold the license. And I have to say, this batch has higher C1 error rates than Mitsui of the past. QC is going down hill.

BTW, Steve, if it's not a trade secret, can you tell us what drive you are using that has a Superclock 4? Do you mod CD burners?

[audioengr]

2) use a CD-R writer that has a special algorithm that elongates the pits, making them more readable

When Yamaha used to make CD writers one of the last they produced was the CDRW-F1 and it had the ability to write elongated pits. I had very good luck with CD-R's burned in these drives and IMO the results were almost always superior to the originals. Sadly Yamaha stopped producing CD writers and while others may offer this, I don't know of any off hand.

mike

I have a Plextor PlexWriter Premium and it has a few options for elongating pits. With PlexTools you can burn at 0.6x, 0.7x, or 0.8x. I have had pretty good results using 0.8x (80%) which is the closest to what Yamaha used. I think their elongation amounted to around 83% or 85%. On the Plextor, using 0.8x means you can only fit 58 minutes on a 74 minute disc. The Premium has long been discontinued, but a few months ago they released the Premium 2 in Japan and Europe (not yet available in the US). With the Premium 2, Plextor has licensed Yamaha's AMQR technology as well as adding the ability to burn at 2X (the Premium could only go as low as 4X). Should be interesting to see (hear) how this performs.

Also, I too have been using MAM-A Audio Master (Gold) CD-Rs, but with the latest batch I ordered, even though the label on the CD says "MAM-A Audio Master" they in fact have an MID from "Computer Support Italcard" rather than Mitsui. It seems Mitsui sold the license. And I have to say, this batch has higher C1 error rates than Mitsui of the past. QC is going down hill.

BTW, Steve, if it's not a trade secret, can you tell us what drive you are using that has a Superclock 4? Do you mod CD burners?

It's one of the CDRW-F1 models that mgalusha speaks of.  Sometimes you can still find them on ebay.  In this unit has is a Superclock2 I believe.  I also use my own proprietary treatment.  Works a lot better than Optrix for instance.  I call it "Spectra".

BTW - I had a shootout last CES with Reality Check and they left my room with tails between legs because my writer and treatent was better.

Unfortunately, I dont mod CD burners.  I dont have the time to take on any new mods right now.  My computer audio products are keeping me very busy.  15-29 customer backlog all year.

Steve N.

[brj]

The Premium has long been discontinued, but a few months ago they released the Premium 2 in Japan and Europe (not yet available in the US).

I had been watching for the release of this unit in the U.S., but haven't checked recently.  Is there any indication that it will happen sometime soon?  Thanks!

[mgalusha]

I have a Plextor PlexWriter Premium and it has a few options for elongating pits. With PlexTools you can burn at 0.6x, 0.7x, or 0.8x. I have had pretty good results using 0.8x (80%) which is the closest to what Yamaha used. I think their elongation amounted to around 83% or 85%. On the Plextor, using 0.8x means you can only fit 58 minutes on a 74 minute disc. The Premium has long been discontinued, but a few months ago they released the Premium 2 in Japan and Europe (not yet available in the US). With the Premium 2, Plextor has licensed Yamaha's AMQR technology as well as adding the ability to burn at 2X (the Premium could only go as low as 4X). Should be interesting to see (hear) how this performs.

Good to know that some of the Plextor drives will do this. I purchased a couple of the Yamaha's on eBay when I found out they were no longer made but I'm sure they will eventually fail.

[miklorsmith]

There are 5 of the CRW-F1 recorders available on ebay now.

I have one of these and have been using it for the last couple years for all my burns.  It's a great unit.

[FRANKe]

I have a Yamaha CRW-F1. It was my main drive until I bought the Plextor Premium. The Premium is a better drive - lower BLER and lower jitter. The CRW-F1 actually had higher jitter when burning at 1X than if you used 4X.

Don't waste your time on e-bay trying to get one of these. Put your efforts into getting either a Premium or Premium 2.

I test my burns for BLER and jitter using PlexTools and/or PXScan with my Premium and I also use Nero CD/DVD Speed with my BenQ 1650. These tests may not be as accurate as using a high end dedicated system like the AudioDev CATS CD Analyzer, but they are consistent and repeatable and the Premium always outperforms the CRW-F1.

[nicksgem10s]

Is the Plextor premium available as an external drive?  If not then what is the best external burner for audio copies?   

[gooberdude]

I've been looking for a good external burner.  It looks like Plextors only model is the 716UF.  a few new ones sold on ebay for $140 yesterday, retail is about $250.

Anyone know of others??

[FRANKe]

Is the Plextor premium available as an external drive?  If not then what is the best external burner for audio copies?   

When the Premium was first released, they did have an external USB version. But as I said before, these have been discontinued awhile. Also, they don't always release the same products in the U.S. as they do in Japan and/or Europe. Good luck finding one.

Folks over at cdfreaks, that are from the U.S., have been buying from computeruniverse.net (in Germany).

Here's an interesting thread to follow:
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=192630

[Jim N.]

This may be a bit off topic but I thought that I would chime in with something related.

I rip everything to hard drive as .wav and burn it to CD using EAC when I make a CD. However, I have since switched to using Cirlinca's DVD Audio Solo which converts .wav files to DVD-A. It will play on newer model DVD players as the audio out from a DVD or on a universal machine as DVD-A (both my Pioneer 59 and Denon 2910 indicate DVD-Audio when they have the disc loaded). You can burn them as 24/96 (2 hours on a DVD) or 24/192 (1 hour on a DVD). I use my universals as both transports and DVD-A players. The sound quality is excellent. You need a good quailty blank DVD (Taiyo Yuden, Verbatim) to get a good burn. Cirlinca DVD Audio Solos runs around 35 bucks. EAC is free.

I also damped the tray on my burner using poster tack and have my PC set up to reduce external vibrations.

Sorry if this is too far off the thread!

[JDUBS]

I own a Plextor Premium external drive.  Bought it NOS off eBay maybe 6 months ago.  I bought it solely for ripping and its done a great job with that.

I would watch eBay and Craigslist closely.  I've seen them pop up on both places.

-Jim

[highendman]

I picked up some Mitsui Gold CDR's from the link you provided Audiongr.  Thank you.

I also picked up a 5Ahr 12v SLA battery from ragebattery.com, as well as a charger.  Very reasonable prices and fast service.

I warmed up my Cool Copy with the walwart and then connected the SLA battery for burns with the new CDRs.  I used Auric Illumator on orignals and CDRs prior to burns.  I used a sheet of ERS over the Cool Copy device.  From the battery, I used a twisted pair, running through and RF choke. I cleaned and treated the contacts of the power plug with silver contact enhancer.

These are the best burns I have made.  They seem to sound better on my car stereo.  On my main system, my general comments remain:

Some CDRs seem a bit more focussed.  The CDRs do not have the dynamic expression of the originals or the tonal differentiation.  They are not as satisfying as the originals, but they are close.  It makes me think that this dynamic and tonal vibrancy lackings of the CDRs is missed on other systems (like my car system).  I makes me wonder if the effect is transport dependent.  I have done quite a bit of work on my transport and jitter bug.

So far, I have yet to make a CDR of a reference CD that is more compelling.  The efforts of the technique seem quite mispent, as the differences seem less than that of optical treatments.