dAck! mods blow-by-blow

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TheChairGuy

dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #20 on: 21 Oct 2004, 02:20 am »
Ah Steve, you really have a way of making us early adopters feel special - thanks.

 'Guinea pig' on MSB Gold Link III  :wink:

srclose

dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #21 on: 21 Oct 2004, 01:10 pm »
Steve,

I volunteer my dAck! surgical intervention.  Any chance insurance would help with this?

SRC

ctviggen

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dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #22 on: 21 Oct 2004, 01:49 pm »
I'm probably not the best candidate to be the first person, as I need to burn in the Ack Dack for a while and do a comparison.  And, I'm generally only good for "instant" comparisons between gear.  If I can switch back and forth between two sets of gear, I can hear the difference.  When I have to send something away to have it redone, my memory isn't good enough to adequately detail the differences.  For instance, I've changed entire sets of interconnects and speaker wire (from copper to silver) and honestly couldn't tell the difference. So, unless there's a "Wow! That's so much better" revelation, I won't be able to adequately describe what's going on, even if I can tell that there is a difference.

audioengr

dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #23 on: 21 Oct 2004, 05:46 pm »
I may be willing to make this one a demo unit.  Don't get me wrong, I really really like the sound of the dAck! now, but the latest P-3A mod, the "DAC dynamics Mod" caused the P-3A to pull way ahead of all other DAC's, including the dAck!.  

If I gave it a percentage, I think the dAck! gets 90% of the P-3A performance, but it is still breaking-in (my wifes rating BTW).  Prior to the DAC Dynamics mod to the P-3A, I think it was at least 95%.

doug s.

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dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #24 on: 21 Oct 2004, 06:07 pm »
Quote from: audioengr
I may be willing to make this one a demo unit.  Don't get me wrong, I really really like the sound of the dAck! now, but the latest P-3A mod, the "DAC dynamics Mod" caused the P-3A to pull way ahead of all other DAC's, including the dAck!.  

If I gave it a percentage, I think the dAck! gets 90% of the P-3A performance, but it is still breaking-in (my wifes rating BTW).  Prior to the DAC Dynamics mod to the P-3A, I think it was at least 95%.


you need to upgrade the op-amps & then get back to us...

doug s.

ctviggen

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dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #25 on: 21 Oct 2004, 06:15 pm »
What's the price difference (assuming one buys the D/A and has it modded) between the two?  The ACK would come out to about 1,100 with mods.  What would the P-3A be?  To me, getting 90% of something that's superlative at about half or 3/4 the cost (for instance) is worth it.

ctviggen

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dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #26 on: 21 Oct 2004, 06:16 pm »
I meant the total price difference -- $1,100 for the Dack and mods versus how much for the P-3A and mods?

audioengr

dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #27 on: 21 Oct 2004, 06:24 pm »
Quote from: ctviggen
I meant the total price difference -- $1,100 for the Dack and mods versus how much for the P-3A and mods?


The P-3A DAC is $620 new (my price) + mods are $1680 = $2300

It must sound better based on the price difference.

Steve N.

doug s.

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dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #28 on: 21 Oct 2004, 06:58 pm »
Quote from: audioengr
...It must sound better based on the price difference...

?!?  higher price doesn't always translate into better sound.   :o

doug s.

ctviggen

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dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #29 on: 21 Oct 2004, 07:42 pm »
I've found that typically price and performance go hand-in-hand, but I'm also a big believer that price can increase a lot for a minor performance gain.  For instance, in this case, the price increase is about 100% for a 10% improvement in sound (according to your wife's analysis).  Is the 10% improvement worth it for the 100% cost difference?  I don't know.  (As of yet, I don't know whether I'll even keep the Ack Dack, as I haven't done a comparison with my current gear.)  However, if I could be convinced that the performance of the Ack would improve to 90% of a reference device, I might be inclined to get mods done, as there is a substantial price difference between the reference device and the modded Ack.

ooheadsoo

dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #30 on: 21 Oct 2004, 07:57 pm »
What was the "percentage" of the ack before modding?

audioengr

dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #31 on: 22 Oct 2004, 06:37 pm »
Quote from: ctviggen
I've found that typically price and performance go hand-in-hand, but I'm also a big believer that price can increase a lot for a minor performance gain.  For instance, in this case, the price increase is about 100% for a 10% improvement in sound (according to your wife's analysis).  Is the 10% improvement worth it for the 100% cost difference?  I don't know.  (As of yet, I don't know whether I'll even keep the Ack Dack, as I haven't done a comparison with my current gear.)  However, if I could be convinced  ...


I dont think you understood.  The 10% improvement was comparing the modded dAck! to the P-3A before and after the "DAC Dynamics mod" for the P-3A, which costs $75 for the P-3A.  The mod for the P-3A, which I am referring to, is well worth the $75.  This is a 4.5% increase in price for a 10% improvement.  Actually, the price on the P-3A mods did not increase.  The $75 is an upgrade price.

As for the percentage of the dAck! before mods as compared to the P-3A, I believe it is in the 70-75% range.  90-95% after the mods.

ctviggen

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dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #32 on: 22 Oct 2004, 07:07 pm »
Ok, but you're saying (if I'm reading everything correctly) that the modded Ack Dack is 90% (to 95%) of the performance of the modded P-3A, but the modded P-3A costs twice as much as the modded Dack.  Therefore, my theory still holds (it's a 100% increase in price for a 10% increase in performance).  Or are you saying that you took the original P-3A, performed the $75 mod on it, and tested this relatively unmodded P-3A versus the modded Ack Dack?  If so, then the modified Ack Dack wouldn't be worthwhile, as if a P-3A with a $75 mod can beat a modified Ack Dack, one should buy the P-3A, as the modified Ack Dack is hundreds more than the P-3A with the $75 mod.

audioengr

dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #33 on: 22 Oct 2004, 09:46 pm »
Quote from: ctviggen
Ok, but you're saying (if I'm reading everything correctly) that the modded Ack Dack is 90% (to 95%) of the performance of the modded P-3A, but the modded P-3A costs twice as much as the modded Dack.  Therefore, my theory still holds (it's a 100% increase in price for a 10% increase in performance).  Or are you saying that you took the original P-3A, performed the $75 mod on it, and tested this relatively unmodded P-3A versus the modded Ack Dack?  If so, then the modified Ack Dack wouldn't be worthwhile, as ...


Oh, I get it now.  Yes, the 10% difference increase in performance is almost twice the price.  This is how high-end audio and even sports cars works.  A good sports car gets 90% of the performance of the Porsche, but costs half as much.  There are things you get with a Porsche that are worth it though, even ignoring the flash factor.  The Porsche, like the P-3A is at the top of the knee of the price-performance curve.

The P-3A does not need to be recharged like the dAck!, and even though it is not battery powered, sounds better.  The P-3A also upsamples and passes 96 kHZ inputs.  The dAck! does not.  I use the P-3A with my USB converter to play 96 kHz feed from my laptop and it sounds spectacular, even better than my best transports.  I cannot do this with the dAck!.  The P-3A also has pop prevention relay to prevent noises when powering off and on.  It never makes any pop noises.  The dAck! can and has made some loud popping noises when I first connect it to my system.  It is not frequent, but has happened.  The P-3A also accepts AES/EBU input, Toslink input and I2S inputs.  The dAck! only does S/PDIF coax.  So you see there are a few things that you get in the P-3A for the extra money.

csown

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dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #34 on: 31 Oct 2004, 05:58 pm »
Hi All,

At this point I feel I ought to interject.  There is some confusion as to what the dAck! can and can't do and additionally I need to comment a bit about the discussion going on in this forum.  First and foremost, Many thanks to Steve for posting his findings with the unit.  He is a customer after all and we build our support base through the generous information sharing between customers.  However, it should be clear with product owners and potential customers that Steve is in the business of modifying products.  He is free to say what his personal opinion is about the product and its modified status, especially in his own forum, however, one should keep in mind that it is always in his best interest to say that a product he intends to mod needs work.  I don't doubt his technical skills to enhance a product to his ideal of the sound, and Steve has a history of looking into products that provide excellent sound in their raw state.  I am by no means implying not to use his mods, but I remind everyone to take things you hear with a grain of salt as this hobby is rife with misinformation and opinions colored by personal taste.

It is clear that Steve and I have very different views of what ideal aspects of sound are.  I have tried very hard to generate a unique listening experience devoid of edge and long-term fatigue while still offering realistic presentation and of course the essence of music.  This does not mean that other products on the market cannot do this or do some of these things better (whether they do it at an affordable price is another issue).  To the point - quantifying performance of an audio product to "95%" in an almost entirely subjective field is a bit of a stretch, wouldn't one think?  My experience with modified P3A's has not been positive but that is an issue of personal taste and I cannot in good conscience tell people I think it is only "XX%" of my ideal when I am in the business of selling a competitive product; I can only try to make mine suit my customer base better.  I think it is dangerous and un-kosher to go around quantifying relative audio performance for everybody if you are a manufacturer or modifier unless the units of enumeration are clearly defined.  

It might not be Steve's intent to create universal definitions of quality for everybody, but when these numbers start getting thrown around as fact it does raise some red flags.


Some items for the reader to consider:

The dAck! converts 16 bit stereo up to 96KHz.

Turn-on pop is something that most high end audio folks have come to accept.  An extra relay in the signal path can affect the signal detrimentally.  The amplitude of the pop with the dAck! does not exceed full swing (2V), which is well within the dynamic listening range of the system and is akin to a slow transient at perhaps a hundred Hz.  It cannot hurt the system unless the system is improperly built!

When playing through the USB conduit at 96KHz, what is the original feed?  Was the media re-sampled from 44.1 or 48 to 96, or was your original feed some 96KHz datastream?  If so, what media?  If not originally 96K, how can you say that the result is "better", or that we are in the realm of high-fidelity still?  We have found that the audio one gets from resampled PC audio is not representative of the intended result - it tends to sound somewhat "technicolor enhanced", with emphasis on high frequencies and an artificially enhanced spaciality.  Is this accurate reproduction?

What were the burn-in conditions?  Were the comparisons made between a fully burned in dAck! and a fully burned in modded dAck!, with a fully burned in P3A as reference (likely the latter was the case, but what of the former)?

We know that the dAck! is fairly sensitive to variations in datastream quality.  We have established a number of transports that work synergistically with the unit and freely share this information with customers.  How can customers know if the modded version is going to work in their installation and get "95%" of P3A performance (subjective as it is) unless they are able to recreate Steve's system of (highly modified) reference products?  Will 95% still be the case in their system?

Happy listening to all,

Christopher S. Own

Ack! Industries

audioengr

dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #35 on: 1 Nov 2004, 04:50 pm »
Quote
It might not be Steve's intent to create universal definitions of quality for everybody, but when these numbers start getting thrown around as fact it does raise some red flags.


Chris - I only do this because my customers demand it.  I also temper my results with feedback from my wife.  In fact, I rely on her ears a lot to qualify my findings.  You are quite right that some folks prefer a much different sound than I do.  I have about 1% of customers that do not like the sound of a particular reference component, but I have found that they are a very small minority and I dont really know what else could be lacking in their systems.  The good news is that I will likely be taking the modified dAck! to CES and playing it.  It is one example of good price/performance.

arthurs

dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #36 on: 1 Nov 2004, 05:11 pm »
I also temper my results with feedback from my wife.  In fact, I rely on her ears a lot to qualify my findings.  


Oh, well now I feel better....

JLM

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dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #37 on: 22 Nov 2004, 02:18 am »
Yes, we all would like to be able to specify a number that could relate to overall sound quality but thats impossible isn't it?  Who gets to decide what qualities are more or less important?  What set of background criteria (room, power, other equipment) would be the standard used?  What music will be used in the testing?  At best the numbers make for a good rule of thumb.

Seems to me that the stock Ack dAck! rates very high to start with compared to the nearly 5 times as expensive modded P-3A.  Congrats to Ack Industries for innovation and the very fine results!  

And in accordance with the rules of diminishing returns a doubling of the price to mod the Ack dAck! results in a (roughly, by one or two people's estimates) 20% increase in fidelity.  Note that these mods are relatively cheap compared to the P-3A or transport mods.

And thank you Steve for offering to feed those of us with this maddening disease with ever better audio products.

audioengr

dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #38 on: 22 Nov 2004, 07:34 pm »
I am pleased with the way the dAck! modded out, particularly since I bought one for myself.  

According to Chris, it passes 24/96, so this combined with my new USB converters would be a great way to get into high-quality PC-Audio - with between $1400-$1850 invested.  I have yet to try it with my laptop.

ctviggen

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dAck! mods blow-by-blow
« Reply #39 on: 22 Nov 2004, 09:08 pm »
What's the bass response like on the modified Ack Dack?  This weekend, someone who was thinking of purchasing VMPS speakers listened to my setup.  We were both a bit taken aback when comparing the Ack Dack versus using my Proceed AVP as D/A in terms of bass response -- the Proceed has better bass response.  He was specifically looking for this, as he currently runs a system with powered woofers.  So, although I'm still testing the Ack Dack, improved bass response would be a good thing.