AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => VMPS Speakers => Topic started by: Brian Cheney on 18 Aug 2006, 03:21 pm
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About a month ago long-time VMPS'er Dave R and inveterate tweeker John Casler colluded to come up with options for the RM 40 that I have never tried before, namely an outboard crossover and all Bolder speaker wire inside crossover and speaker. Given the 11.5 gauge twisted quad nature of the Bolder, this meant much additional labor.
I didn't charge Dave R enough for this. He said he wanted "the best RM 40's he could get" and would settle for nothing less. He more than got his heart's desire, IMHO.
Outboard crossovers are nothing new here. They're standard on the ST3SRE system and have found application in smaller speakers. My experience had been that the extra wiring and connectors negated most advantage from the elimination of microphonics and other phenomena. Well, at least this time round, I was wrong, a rare admission for me and my various alter egi.
Dave R's 40's, which I will henceforth dub "Supermax" are a revelation (pardon me if this term has been used before by others) in clarity, extension, imaging, definition and naturalness. I have not yet figured out how much contribution the great Wayne Wanaanen/Bolder wire makes overall, relative to the separate crossover. And remember, this pair includes the SR71, CDWG's. TRT caps, mls cabinets and tuned/tweeked passive CD EQ crossovers. But my demo pair of 40's has all this and does not produce the sheer beauty of sound I hear from "Supermax".
The outboard crossover adds $400 to the price of the RM 40 (really ambitious DIY'ers could retrofit in the field, otherwise factory work is required) and the Bolder wire (over 20ft per side) adds $700. I'll make the "Supermax" available--with all options including the TRT's--for $7800pr for those who want speakers that perform at a level well above the rest. And I know there are lots of really fine competing speakers out there now, at all price points and in various driver complements and configurations.
Also, we are now offering "piano veneer" finishes, a deep high gloss requiring artisan finishing here domestically, at a $300pr additional. The look is sensational and a bit distracting compared to the usual satin , but we're just keeping up with the times.
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I see I mangled Wayne Waananen's name. My apologies.
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Brian,
Many thanks and much gratitude for granting my wish !
Thank you too big John for helping guide me thru this.
I'm also happy that other VMPS customers may benefit from our joint effort.
And don't forget I'm an active owner auditioner, so send people over to hear them.
But I wish you had not written this article.
I wont' be able to sleep for a week now, awaiting their arrival.
Is there any way we can change the name to the "RoccoMax".
Just kidding!
Now if I can just get you to bite on my molded composite speaker cabinet concepts !!
Dave Rocco
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How bout "THE ROC"??
Or is that taken too?
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Sounds good to me !
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Brian
Does this mean the CDW crossover mods for the RM-40s are finalized?
Bob
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Oh yeah. If you want to go to DEFCON 5 (also known as "Supermax"), you can do it as a DIY project or through the factory. Lots of fun that will keep you busy and reward you greatly soundwise.
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How bout "THE ROC"??
Or is that taken too?
The name "ROC" has been used by Talon ... how about "OMC" ?
OMC of course meaning "Outboard Maxxed Out Crossover"
VMPS RM 40's w/FST and OMC ?
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Brian is building my new RM30C w/ all options including the outboard xo, w/ a twist as follows:
Speaker Inputs
3 pairs (bass, mid, treble) binding posts w/ a small hole next to each post. The internal speaker wires pass through the hole, are terminated w/ gold spade lugs, & attach to the posts. The holes are sealed internally.
Outboard XO
Outputs: 3 wire-pairs direct-soldered to the xo components & terminated w/ gold spade lugs that attach to the corresponding input binding posts on the speaker (bass, mid, treble).
Inputs: 2 pairs (bass, ribbon array) binding posts w/ a small hole next to each post. Wires direct-soldered to the xo components pass through the holes & are terminated w/ gold spade lugs that attach to the posts. Also attached to the posts are gold spade lugs from the speaker cables leading to the amps.
The Twist
All metallic binding posts are replaced by nylon screws, washers, nuts & wing-nuts (the screws have heat-treated steel cores for sheer strength). These fasteners act only as a mechanical junction point for the spades described above, with no conductive parts disturbing the signal.
The British Bullet brand RCA plugs are well-known for high sound quality. Their unique feature is conducting the ground signal via a tiny pencil-point-size metallic ball located at the narrow leading edge of an otherwise non-conductive nylon collar. The mass of the ground conductor is nil. There is similarly little conductive mass to Radio Shack’s RCA plug #274-321 (8/$2.99), which also explains why they may sound better than even the Bullets. The nylon binding posts mimic the same intent. Ric Schultz first thought of using the binding post only as a mechanical anchor point for two conductors (no soldering). The Bullet RCA’s gave rise to my idea of using nylon posts.
One last tweak will probably improve the sound as much as the outboard xo itself, or any other tweak. All xo components get potted in clear silicone adhesive/sealant. The L-pads will be covered in silicone except for vent slots. The improvement experienced in performing this mod on component parts is huge. I can't wait to hear it w/ the recent VMPS improvements & my room & system upgrades. I'd rate it on par w/ at least the difference between the Auricaps & TRT's.
I close by agreeing the SuperDefcon/Supermaxiepads heard at Brian's is the best I've heard the four-d's sound.
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We shall see what "Supermax" RM30's sound like in 10 days or so, particularly after Jim's many tweek-o changes.
We may never make another "normal" pair of speakers again at this rate.
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We shall see what "Supermax" RM30's sound like in 10 days or so, particularly after Jim's many tweek-o changes.
We may never make another "normal" pair of speakers again at this rate.
Now that is what I wanted.
Behind the scenes: I have been pestering B, about doing this since I first wrote about the "DIRECT DRIVE" RM Series speakers.
It makes any electronic upgrade (caps/pots/wiring/etc) so easy.
It also makes any VMPS RM Series speaker easily adaptable to either an outboard anaolg X-over, or any of the new "digital" offerings, by having a binding post or connection for each set of drivers. (HF/MF/LF)
I know any of the speakers, I order for "my" system in the future will have the "magic box" set up.
This allows not only "upgrading" ease, but also makes shipping the electronics back to be for "custom tuning" simply a snap. As well, the more tactile types can perform "in the field" adjustments/upgrades/repairs/etc, with far greater ease.
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The OXO eases the indispensable improvement of regularly treating the L-pad contacts w/ Caig Pro-Gold. In mono I compared one spekaer w/ this mod vs. the other without; huge difference.
The following tweak is do-able, but is messy in the case of service: Gasket tape seals every driver to the baffle. The tape adds a spring effect, damping transients. The tape can be replaced w/ clear silicone sealant. Eliminating the spring effect improves clarity.
The following is too much work & has some risk: A wood dowel of appropriate diameter is installed behind each driver. A T-nut goes on the end of the dowel toward the driver. A machine screw & locknut goes in the T-nut. The screw is adjusted & locked where it just touches the driver magnet, minimizing rearward driver movement when the diaphragm moves forward. Screw location must be carefully chosen. Too far in eliminates the potential advangtage. Too far out can bend the driver frame when the mounting screws are torqued, or an air leak could result at the mating surface. Done right a huge upgrade, similar to above tweak.
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Further Thoughts :scratch:
While B, and I have been working on this project for "The ROC", not all the loose ends are totally cleaned up.
I will post the pricing for the "stock" 3 input 2 output version soon, however we will also have a 3 in 3 out version for those adventurous individuals, who live on the edge of "Tri-AMPing".
Just imagine a sweet tube amp for the FST, with a richer tube or SS for the Neos, and a POWER HOUSE, high amperage, bass quality, amp for the woofs.
Now that is a speaker that would make a "SONIC STATEMENT".
Maybe we should call it the "SONIC STATEMENT" RM40???? RM40SS for short :lol:
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The OXO eases the indispensable improvement of regularly treating the L-pad contacts w/ Caig Pro-Gold. In mono I compared one spekaer w/ this mod vs. the other without; huge difference.
OXO = Outboard X Over
I like it :thumb:
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The OXO eases the indispensable improvement of regularly treating the L-pad contacts w/ Caig Pro-Gold. In mono I compared one spekaer w/ this mod vs. the other without; huge difference.
OXO = Outboard X Over
I like it :thumb:
Pretty soon we'll have the whole Alphabet (figured I better say it before some wiseacre cam along) :lol: :green: :lol: :green: :roll:
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John
A slight deviation from the thread: Have you ever heard a nice 300B SET on just the FST? My friend brought over the 300B (8-11W) he built for a very affordable sum, well below $1k I'm sure. At the time it powered the entire ribbon array on RM2 spirals. On peaks it ran out of juice. This was frustating, because to this day it was the sweetest reproduced treble I have ever heard, absolutely haunting in its realism & seductive qualities. You could visualize finger smudges on the cymbals. Everything I've heard since or before pales.
The current FST is probably about 6-8dB more sensitive. That 300B SET on the FST would be magic indeed.
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One last tweak will probably improve the sound as much as the outboard xo itself, or any other tweak. All xo components get potted in clear silicone adhesive/sealant. The L-pads will be covered in silicone except for vent slots. The improvement experienced in performing this mod on component parts is huge. I can't wait to hear it w/ the recent VMPS improvements & my room & system upgrades. I'd rate it on par w/ at least the difference between the Auricaps & TRT's.
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Hi Jim,
I used non hardening modelling clay instead of silicone, way less messy. This is a tweak described by Frank Van Alstine in 1982 to reduce speaker cabinet resonances and to damp turntables and phono cartridges.
Cheap modeling clay can be found from Dollar Tree store or Michael's :
400 gr for 1$, brand: roseart if I remember correctly. Warm up the clay in the oven before applying: it sticks better and is easier to apply on the crossover parts.
Bruno
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My sources have tried both & swear by the silicone, though the clay will benefit & is (probably) less of a mess. I'll have to consider the clay before I go nutz w/ the goop! Thanks!
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Brian
I was going to email you these questions, but thought you answers will be of general interest. Here goes:
My questions are intended to learn more about what is being offered and if a field implementation will work as well as what the factory would do on new production. Although I am anxious to get a corrected crossover for my CDW, I am also considering other mods and and trying to determine the best overall course of action.
Perhaps it is too early for you to finalize the details but my questions are:
1. Will this eventually be offered as an in-field swap (you send external crossover and customer returns original parts)?
2. Will the customer be provided with premounted binding posts on a replacement MDF board or just the binding posts?
3. Will the factory-provided assembly have wires long enough so that the box rests on the floor?
4. Can the crossover potting work as well on a recycled crossover versus building a new one from scratch?
5. Is Jim accurately describing the mod or is his somewhat different than what will be offered.
Thanks
Bob
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Bob
This thread may be the first B heard of the potting & the silicone replacing the gasket tape. I may or may not personally perform both mods & am not expecting Brian to do them. The dowel is a pain in the butt & I'm undecided about it.
I really like that the speakers are empty except for the drivers, stuffing & wires.
In a system & room w/ about 25% the resolving power of my current rig (including the speakers I'm whipping Brian to complete as I type), the potting & driver seal upgrades are startling & stupendous. One can only imagine the differences in a system & room w/ several times more resolving power. The TRL CDP is the cat's meow, the amps, speakers & room all megadittos.
The nylon screws are my personal tweak, I only bought enough for my speakers & a couple spares to be swallowed by the Plant. The nylon should be an audible improvement. I have all four Mouser part numbers & will post seperately if requested.
BTW, I absolutely still prefer the subtle but distinct (but hard to describe) differences in imaging & staging of the 30 vs. 40. But I can't agree more w/ Brian that the OXO made a huge difference for the better. Extremely NOT subtle by any stretch. I pity anyone attempting to remove the parts. I've been in there about as much as anyone except his highness & all I can say is eat your wheaties that morning & do some extra miles on the bike.......do NOT start the project during a stressful week at work....
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In the best situation the factory would do all mods on the speakers, including the passive CD EQ xover, which requires the system spend a few hours in my sound room so I can optimize the values.
I am certain the owner in the field can get 90% of the factory mod results by himself from parts we send. Moving the xover outside the speaker is a tremendous amount of work and mistakes can happen that the user might overlook, such as wiring one section out of phase.
The 40's do not ship well or cheaply. Freight lines have cut back on essential personnel to save money in these times of high fuel prices, and are very rough. We keep beefing up the packaging.
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Further Thoughts :scratch:
While B, and I have been working on this project for "The ROC", not all the loose ends are totally cleaned up.
I will post the pricing for the "stock" 3 input 2 output version soon, however we will also have a 3 in 3 out version for those adventurous individuals, who live on the edge of "Tri-AMPing".
Big John,
Just want to remind everyone what I ordered on the "supermax".
The outboard cross-over "black boxes" have 2 sets of input binding posts.
There are NO OUTPUT BINDING POSTS.
Inside the boxes I had Brian provide all Bolder/silver wiring.
For interconnecting wiring I had Brian provide 24" long silver wire, uninterupted between the cross-overs/Lpads and speakers.
On the speaker end of the interconnecting wiring we used spade connectors.
The speakers are "direct drive" and have the normal 3 sets of binding posts.
Inside the speakers we used all bolder/silver wiring also, plus all the best goodies available.
Boy am I excited to get these babies !
Maybe you should stop by my house after your Ohio trip !
Dave
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Further Thoughts :scratch:
While B, and I have been working on this project for "The ROC", not all the loose ends are totally cleaned up.
I will post the pricing for the "stock" 3 input 2 output version soon, however we will also have a 3 in 3 out version for those adventurous individuals, who live on the edge of "Tri-AMPing".
Big John,
Just want to remind everyone what I ordered on the "supermax".
Each outboard crossover "black box" has 2 sets of input binding posts and NO output binding posts.
Black box internal wiring is all bolder/silver.
I had Brian provide 24" long silver interconnecting wiring, uninterupted between the X overs/Lpads and the "direct drive" RM-40's.
Direct drive speakers have 3 sets of binding posts.
Interconnecting wiring has spade connectors (speaker end only) for connection to the speaker posts.
Speakers have all silver wiring inside also, plus all the normal goodies available.
Boy am I excited to get these babies !
Maybe you should stop by my house after your Ohio trip !
Dave
Hey Dave,
I'm already back. Can't wait to hear how it all sounds in your room, and after days, weeks, and months of your tweaking.
Just so you know, I added a "quote" adjustment on your post above since somehow the bottom quote bracket didn't take, and it read like one big quote :wink:
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John,
I caught that too and rewrote the reply, with the same result.
What am I doing wrong?
Dave
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John,
I caught that too and rewrote the reply, with the same result.
What am I doing wrong?
Dave
Now that is a good question :lol:
With the quote button, it looks like you don't select the text you want in a quote block, or else you begin typing "before" the closing quote brackets, placing your new info inside the quote.
As far as VMPS, nothing. I think you're doing it all right. 8)
PS I edited it again to re-correct it, so it is now correct again :green:
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The 40's do not ship well or cheaply. Freight lines have cut back on essential personnel to save money in these times of high fuel prices, and are very rough. We keep beefing up the packaging.
2-way coast to coast shipping is quite expensive. In addition to the cost and risk of damage, last time the local shipper refused to do an in-house delivery (despite my willingness to pay for it). The wood crates add a lot of weight and getting the speakers off the pallet in front of my porch and indoors was quite an adventure. :roll:
I don't have much in the way of tools or shop ability so the idea of a field swap installation has a lot of appeal to me. It would be great if it just required removing the old parts, installing a prefab board for the binding posts, making the internal wiring connections and hooking up the pre-built box. That procedure could probably done in an hour or two and is within my abilities.
Bob
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If you got new outboard factory crossovers plus new boards with three sets of binding posts, you're talking $450pr plus shipping.
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Sounds like the retrofit requires only to go inside the speakers & cut the driver wires at the xo side. If I read B's post correctly you get all new xo parts for $450. The original xo parts can sit inside unused & do not need to be removed.
Inside the speaker you can forgo soldering to the terminals & instead choose the mechanical anchor point architecture (nylon screws/nuts/washers OR original binding posts). You will only need to drill small holes in the terminal boards next to the screws or posts, then insert the wire ends through the holes, then seal holes internally; can use hot melt glue or silicone sealant; must not move the wire during silicone's longish setup time or a leak will likely result. Crimp appropriate gold spades (the spades must fit around the screws/posts) to the wire ends & lastly attach the spades to the screws/posts.
Sounds a lot better than packing/unpacking & paying for shipping speakers round trip. If you don't feel comfortable doing the work inside the speaker it should be relatively easy to find a hobbyist nearby up to the task. It's pretty easy to use a 9V battery to personally confirm the driver polarity is maintained, & that's about the only thing anyone can screw up inside the speaker during the update. Brian can even include a battery w/ wires soldered to it for a few extra bucks.
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No, the old crossovers would have to be removed from the cabinets and sent to the factory first.
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Oopps. Actually that makes sense concerning the lowish price. Sorry I misread. Well, in that case you gotta use a heat gun to melt the glue to remove the xo parts. Beware because bare skin & melted hot melt glue are an unkind combination. Do NOT scrape the glue after it contacts your skin! That will be your first response, which will only remove more skin. Just have some ice cubes handy to cool the glue asap, after which it pretty easily falls off your skin. But it hurts till it cools.
Removal is easier on the 40s vs. 30s.
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For $999, a R/T Plane ticket, and a Sirloin w/ Vegetable and Baked Potato, B might be enticed to make a house call. :lol:
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Jim
Actually, I recall being able to pry the crossover off the MDF without needing the glue gun when I sent my parts to Brain for a MLS rebuild. The hot glue stayed stuck to the parts but tore off the MDF.
$450 sounds reasonable but the main hangup for me is the downtime. I would be willing to pay for the whole crossover if I could return the old one for credit (like buying a rebuilt alternator).
Bob
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I'd be sending out new crossovers and getting back used ones. I don't think that will work.
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Bob
Yes that rings a bell, that sounds familiar. Sometimes you get a layer of the mdf w/ the glue.
Brian
Once you get one used set of xo components to ship out, all subsequent "new" xo's would be made w/ used componenets. They'd be someone else's used parts, like when you purchase a rebuilt alternator.
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Brian
The trimmed TRTs are pretty pricey. Don't the used crossovers have some value for warranty repair or as a 'used' purchase option?
You could charge more for a swap both to make sure you get the old ones back and to take into account new versus used value. One price for factory rebuild and another for swap?
As Jim suggests, as long as the crossover was fully functional and appropriate (same cap option, values correct for customers tweeter, midwoofer and CDW or not), its not important to me whether the parts are brand new. Don't know how other customers feel about this.
I'll let it rest now.
Bob