What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 20437 times.

ronwills

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 8
I recently purchased a pair of Khartago Mono Amps from Audiogon. I have attached a photo of the interior of the units. They appear to be highly customized units with the addition of very large blue capacitors, a black motherboard which I was told is used in your top model, different transformer, etc.



These mono amps replaced a BADA MK 100MKII amp that I have been using for a number of years. This is a heavily built stereo amplifier with good build quality but purchased for well under $1000.



After visiting with Klaus at the Capital Audio Show earlier this year, I had set my sights on owning a pair of Odyssey mono block amplifiers. I caught an ad on Audiogon for a pair of Modified Khartago mono blocks and purchased them.

This is where it all went south. I am writing this email due to the concern over the Khartago mono amps performance.

My system:
•   Speakers - Magnepan 1.7s - Was using Def Tech Mythos STS as subwoofers but just sold them (I know this sounds crazy but had a pair, needed some bass reinforcement and hooked them up. They worked decently adding additional weight to the Magnepans). I will be ordering a Rythmik F12 soon.
•   Preamp - Nuforce AVP-18 (an all-digital front end AV DAC and preamp) amazing sound for the price
•   Cables – Mostly Wireworld Series 7  - Silver Starlight 7 Coax Digital, Equinox 7 RCA analogue cables from preamp to amp, and Electa 7 power cord powering one of the two mono amps with a matching cable on order. Every addition of the Wireworld cables has made a dramatic improvement in the system. I use Morrow SP5 Reference speaker cables.
•   Music Server - Netgear EVA9150 music server feeding the digital output to the Nuforce AVP-18 AV DAC/Pre. This incredibly inexpensive music server blows away my PC Music Server in sound quality and ease of use.

With the recent addition of the Wireworld cables and using the BADA MK 100MKII amp, I was getting amazing micro detail in the music. I have a large collection of Guitar music, mostly classical and acoustic, where it was incredibly easy to get a sense of the recording venue and differences in guitars on the different CDs. It was musical detail that provides a sense of size and space for each instrument playing. For example, I play a lot of Mozart concertos, quartets, etc. and was able to easily differentiate the instruments in space and hear the interplay between instruments.

All of that is gone once I replaced the BADA amplifier with the two Khartago mono blocks. The spacing around instruments and the feeling of depth has actually shrunk a bit, the micro detail is gone, what I left is a bit homogenized sound that doesn’t sound bad, but it lifeless. There is little sense of acoustic space around the instruments.

The Odyssey amps did begin to sound a little better but not up to the level I had previously. I had heard that mono amps should help increase the soundstage but the opposite was the case. Previously with some recordings, the soundstage would extend beyond the speakers. Now the sound stage is constricted in width and depth, best guess is that it has constricted by 1/3rd the amount I had previously. Imaging detail is a little softer and more diffuse than what I had previously.

To the casual listener, it sounds nice, polite but has lost the involvement that the BADA amp provided.

I did research on the amplifiers and saw a lot of discussion about long break in times. I don’t know how much the previous owner has played the units but he says that they are less than 6 months old. Still, I would have thought that they would be broken in by now. I have left them on 24/7 for about 3 weeks so far and play music about 12 hours a day through the amps to help break them in.

Breaking in – Questions and comments
•   Units have been plugged directly into the wall outlet (using Hospital grade wall plugs). Correct Y/N ?
•   Units have been left on for about three weeks, so far. Remember these were purchased used from an owner that I assume has played the units for some time.
•   Music plays through them most of the day but off at night. Amplifiers, however, remain powered up.
•   I can’t play them loudly for hours at a time. Can the amps be fed a signal without the speakers being hooked up? If so, I could run them at a higher power level for hours at a time.


Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I just want to know if I will ever get the micro details, large hall ambiance and sense of live performers in the room that I was getting with my previous, much less expensive amplifier and, if so, what steps can I take to speed up the break-in process to achieve those results.


Wolfman

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 103
Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #1 on: 26 Oct 2013, 01:27 am »
ronwills-Call Klaus with the serial numbers. This doesn't look like any Odyssey work I've seen, but I'm not familiar with the Khartagos and their smaller cases.

You need much more info from the seller. When was the work done? Who did it? How many hours of operation since, etc.

Some of the wire looks wrong, Klaus uses the better wire in his upper mods, you can identify it by the ribbed cover. Generally Klaus puts twin trannies in doesn't he? There's just a lot here that doesn't look like Odyssey work but I could be wrong. Khartagos again and not Stratos, so........ :?

Yes, plug them directly into the wall, but make sure the outlets share the same ground path as the rest of your gear or you're asking for a possible ground loop/hum problems.
Leave them on 24/7, but be sure to unplug(not just off) for any Lightning/bad storms. All it takes is one near hit and kaching! Don't ask me how I know....... :evil:

DON'T run them without speakers hooked up. A lot of amps can go into oscillation without being hooked up, I think it's not advised with Odyssey, again check with Klaus.

Sorry I'm not more helpful, but it's a start, good luck. Oh, and yeah, Odyssey in general and modded ones even more, they both take hundreds of hours to sound their best, just hang in there. The Odyssey break in changes can be kind of a roller coaster and amusing in itself, so hang on, it will get better with time if they're real ones.

djbnh

Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #2 on: 26 Oct 2013, 01:25 pm »
Ditto re wiring to the light blue caps on either side, I posit there's no way that's Klaus' / Odyssey's work. Contact the seller on A'gon to find out what she/he did - maybe you can null the same if the seller did not disclose working on the amps.Hope it doesn't void the Odyssey warranty.

stereo5

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 180
  • Current System
Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #3 on: 26 Oct 2013, 01:56 pm »
Don't know what you guys are thinking, but that is definitely Odyssey's work.  My Stratos caps use the exact same wire for hook up, and the transformer shown in the picture is the one used in the Kismet amp, same for the black board and the caps.  You just may be more used to the sound from the Bada.  Odyssey may not be everyone's cup of tea.  I would call Klaus and ask him directly what can be done to get the sound back that you enjoy.

aaron.luebke

Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #4 on: 26 Oct 2013, 05:45 pm »
Do those long blue caps on the side say "Symphonic" on them?  If they do - it's real.  I've not seen a tranny cover of that color but that doesn't mean much - the rest looks legit.

I agree - this might not be your cup of tea.  Klaus does excellent work but everyone has a different set of ears.

JP78

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 740
Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #5 on: 26 Oct 2013, 05:54 pm »
Don't know what you guys are thinking, but that is definitely Odyssey's work.  My Stratos caps use the exact same wire for hook up, and the transformer shown in the picture is the one used in the Kismet amp, same for the black board and the caps.  You just may be more used to the sound from the Bada.  Odyssey may not be everyone's cup of tea.  I would call Klaus and ask him directly what can be done to get the sound back that you enjoy.

I agree. While the amp may or may not be modified, even exceptional manufacturers like Odyssey will not have their products be synergistic in every system - in no small part due to everybody's ears being different. :)

ronwills - Many years back I had purchased an original 'Odyssey' stereo amplifier because like you I really admire the build quality and have respect for Klaus.  At the end of the day it just didn't gel with my Gallo Ref IIs to my ears - through trial and error I eventually figured out that I strongly prefer an SET type sound.

Best of luck sorting this out - it's good to know Klaus is there to take care of you.


djbnh

Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #6 on: 26 Oct 2013, 07:14 pm »
I commented they way I did because the Extreme Monos I owned did not have the light colored wiring. However, if that's the stock Khatargo wring, I stand corrected.

klaus@odyssey

Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #7 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:36 pm »
Bias, bias, bias.... these amps have some of the Kismet mods in there (i.e. black board and ref. caps offboard) and figuring that they are used, they are probably already broken in.
Also, the match with the Maggie 1.7's is a fantastic one.  So good in fact, that I bought a pair of 1,7's myself last year.
However, and again, my gospel again and again and again, if the bias / voltage is wayyyyyyy  off, then yes, they are merely average, just as any other amp that has an off kilter bias.......


Call me, and let me see how we can get the bias done correctly,

Klaus

Geardaddy

Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #8 on: 27 Oct 2013, 04:21 pm »
how's that for service?  Very nice Klaus....

ronwills

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 8
This is an impressive board. Thank you for quick replies.

Couple of notes/updates:
  • I did go back to the basics and make sure every connection in the system was tightened, RCA plugs unplugged and plugged back in and firmly seated and same with speaker wires.
  • After another week of break in at much higher than normal levels than I would normally listen to music, there has been some improvement, however the basic sound characteristics are what I discussed in the original post.
  • For Klaus, if you keep a record of the equipment, my Serial numbers are 4718/19
  • I am excited about tweaking the amps to get a little more air and micro details to add to the way the amps bring out the bass in my Magnepan 1.7s better than any amp I have heard. I have my speakers about 5 feet from the back wall with little bass reinforcement. With the Odyssey amps they grip the bottom end of the speakers unbelievably well. They bring out a fullness that my Magnepans have never had without subwoofer reinforcement. Very impressive.

 
My final comment is that the naturalness of the Odyssey amps does come through and has gotten me excited about their potential. It is nice that you have the flexibility of biasing the amps to "tweek" them to fit the user's situation. 
 
I will call you. Best day/time to call?


MaxCast

Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #10 on: 27 Oct 2013, 11:25 pm »
between 1pm and 12am est.

lazydays

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1365
This is an impressive board. Thank you for quick replies.

Couple of notes/updates:
  • I did go back to the basics and make sure every connection in the system was tightened, RCA plugs unplugged and plugged back in and firmly seated and same with speaker wires.
  • After another week of break in at much higher than normal levels than I would normally listen to music, there has been some improvement, however the basic sound characteristics are what I discussed in the original post.
  • For Klaus, if you keep a record of the equipment, my Serial numbers are 4718/19
  • I am excited about tweaking the amps to get a little more air and micro details to add to the way the amps bring out the bass in my Magnepan 1.7s better than any amp I have heard. I have my speakers about 5 feet from the back wall with little bass reinforcement. With the Odyssey amps they grip the bottom end of the speakers unbelievably well. They bring out a fullness that my Magnepans have never had without subwoofer reinforcement. Very impressive.

 
My final comment is that the naturalness of the Odyssey amps does come through and has gotten me excited about their potential. It is nice that you have the flexibility of biasing the amps to "tweek" them to fit the user's situation. 
 
I will call you. Best day/time to call?

I've not had the chance to listen to the amps you have, but use the Glass Ceiling monos. So this leaves me with a couple questions for you.

1. are you leaving the amps up and running 25/7? If not, try leaving them on. It takes my amps about 36 hours to sound OK, but they continually get better over three to four days. I'll assume that the current draw on your amps is similar to mine, and they don't really like power conditioners unless they have a high current section. Mine does, and it's marginal.

2. My amps are somewhat selective about cables! My all time favorite sounding cables just wouldn't work behind them, and they were somewhat picky about the IC's. My favorite IC with them is from Stealth, but right now I'm using a pair of Gronenbergs. The speakers preferred a six foot pair of Cardas or the Gronenbergs. I don't hear a lot of difference, but the Gronenbergs are what I currently use. I've tried Kimber, Synergistics (their best), Audioquest, and a couple others. I think the amps work well with short runs to the speakers even though a lot of folks differ.

3. See if you can borrow another preamp! I think Odyssey amps sound best with a tube front end. They don't seem too picky, and have the habit of making some of the frowned upon preamps sound like they're gold plated. The preamp your using may not have as much gain as you want, and that's also something to think about. Also make sure you have everything phased correctly.
gary

ronwills

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 8
Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #12 on: 28 Oct 2013, 02:47 pm »
Reply to the Post by lazydays:

I do leave the amps on 24/7 and have noticed improvement over the 3+ weeks I have owned the amps. They are plugged directly into the wall outlet (has hospital grade plugs with no filtering). I have checked the phasing using the Stereophile Test CD and it appears all is in order.
 
I do have a different power cable running to each mono amp. I have a Wireworld Electra 7 power cord running to one and a Xindak power cord running to the other. A second Wireworld Electra 7 power cord is on the way to me and will replace the Xindak as soon as I get it. I would imagine the current miss-match in cables is causing some slight issues, but don't imagine that it is responsible for the majority of the problem.
 
I will do some cable switching from the Preamp to the Amps to see if there is any potential issues using the Wireworld analogue cables. They made such a dramatic improvement to the previous set up, I am not expecting this to make a difference but who knows, it is worth a try.
 
The NuForce preamp/DAC seems to be powering the Odyssey mono amps at the same level they did the BADA amp. In other words, what shows as a volume reading of 60 sounds about the same with Odyssey and BADA. In fact, the same reading appears to be generating a little more volume with the Odyssey amps. I no longer have my W4S DAC2 so using another preamp will not help me at this point because I have no way to convert the digital signal to analogue.
 
When listening to the system, you get the feeling that you are about 85-90% of the way there. Just that last little bit clarity, focus and sound staging is missing.  That is why I believe that Klaus has it right when he said it is the Bias. I don't know how it was biased for the previous owner but, who knows, his system may have required biasing that is not compatible with my system.
 
However, having said that, it certainly is easy to do some cable switching while I try to contact Klaus about the biasing.

hukkfinn

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 15
Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #13 on: 29 Oct 2013, 03:10 pm »
In addition to checking bias, the first thing I would do is ditch your aftermarket power cords (for the moment).

Power cords screw up sound quality more often than they improve it, in my experience. 

Any stock power cords will give you insight into how the Odysseys really sound.  I have always used the stock PCs from Odyssey.  Love them.

Expensive PCs can help a little, or hurt a lot.

-Hukk

lazydays

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1365
Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #14 on: 30 Oct 2013, 02:48 am »
you know after thinking about this setup, the problem may not be with the amps at all! I wonder if the speakers themselves are vibrating? I'd try setting the stands on a piece of heavy carpet as an experiment. Plus try moving them out another foot or so away from the walls. Maggies are very sensitive to this
gary

ronwills

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 8
Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #15 on: 30 Oct 2013, 09:49 pm »
Getting closer...
 
Thank you for all the suggestions. Here are a few updates:
 
Klaus said that the mono blocks are using some of the top grade parts including some Kismet parts. He knows that I am not tapping the potential of these amps. In fact, as he has mentioned before, he owns a pair of Magnepan 1.7s and knows how well they mate with the Odyssey amps.
 
Here is the what is unique to Odyssey that makes them very special to me - being able to speak with the designer of the amplifiers and have a thorough discussion of what could be wrong in the system. I Spoke to Klaus earlier this week and based on that discussion, he thinks the amps need some bias adjustments.  I have ordered the multimeter and will schedule a time to walk through re-biasing the amplifiers. You just can't get any better than this.
 
Cable Update - Here is the shocker for me: I had mentioned in a previous post that I was waiting for the second Wireworld Electra 7 power cable to be delivered. I had one mono amp hooked up with a Wireworld power cord but the other was using a Chinese Xindak power cord - remember that I went from a stereo amp to mono blocks so only had one power cord. I was not anticipating a significant difference in sound quality but when I got the second Wireworld Electra 7 power cord yesterday and hooked it up, the difference was amazing. There was no way I was anticipating this amount of improvement but the soundstage widened and the clarity increased. The new power cord hasn't even broken in but it cured many of the issues that I discussed in my first post. Listening to music is again a real joy. I am now 90-95% of where I think this system can be.
 
Next up re-biasing the amps. Can't wait....
 

Indiansprings

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 235
Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #16 on: 1 Nov 2013, 10:45 pm »
I recently purchased a pair of Khartago Mono Amps from Audiogon. I have attached a photo of the interior of the units. They appear to be highly customized units with the addition of very large blue capacitors, a black motherboard which I was told is used in your top model, different transformer, etc.



These mono amps replaced a BADA MK 100MKII amp that I have been using for a number of years. This is a heavily built stereo amplifier with good build quality but purchased for well under $1000.



After visiting with Klaus at the Capital Audio Show earlier this year, I had set my sights on owning a pair of Odyssey mono block amplifiers. I caught an ad on Audiogon for a pair of Modified Khartago mono blocks and purchased them.

This is where it all went south. I am writing this email due to the concern over the Khartago mono amps performance.

My system:
•   Speakers - Magnepan 1.7s - Was using Def Tech Mythos STS as subwoofers but just sold them (I know this sounds crazy but had a pair, needed some bass reinforcement and hooked them up. They worked decently adding additional weight to the Magnepans). I will be ordering a Rythmik F12 soon.
•   Preamp - Nuforce AVP-18 (an all-digital front end AV DAC and preamp) amazing sound for the price
•   Cables – Mostly Wireworld Series 7  - Silver Starlight 7 Coax Digital, Equinox 7 RCA analogue cables from preamp to amp, and Electa 7 power cord powering one of the two mono amps with a matching cable on order. Every addition of the Wireworld cables has made a dramatic improvement in the system. I use Morrow SP5 Reference speaker cables.
•   Music Server - Netgear EVA9150 music server feeding the digital output to the Nuforce AVP-18 AV DAC/Pre. This incredibly inexpensive music server blows away my PC Music Server in sound quality and ease of use.

With the recent addition of the Wireworld cables and using the BADA MK 100MKII amp, I was getting amazing micro detail in the music. I have a large collection of Guitar music, mostly classical and acoustic, where it was incredibly easy to get a sense of the recording venue and differences in guitars on the different CDs. It was musical detail that provides a sense of size and space for each instrument playing. For example, I play a lot of Mozart concertos, quartets, etc. and was able to easily differentiate the instruments in space and hear the interplay between instruments.

All of that is gone once I replaced the BADA amplifier with the two Khartago mono blocks. The spacing around instruments and the feeling of depth has actually shrunk a bit, the micro detail is gone, what I left is a bit homogenized sound that doesn’t sound bad, but it lifeless. There is little sense of acoustic space around the instruments.

The Odyssey amps did begin to sound a little better but not up to the level I had previously. I had heard that mono amps should help increase the soundstage but the opposite was the case. Previously with some recordings, the soundstage would extend beyond the speakers. Now the sound stage is constricted in width and depth, best guess is that it has constricted by 1/3rd the amount I had previously. Imaging detail is a little softer and more diffuse than what I had previously.

To the casual listener, it sounds nice, polite but has lost the involvement that the BADA amp provided.

I did research on the amplifiers and saw a lot of discussion about long break in times. I don’t know how much the previous owner has played the units but he says that they are less than 6 months old. Still, I would have thought that they would be broken in by now. I have left them on 24/7 for about 3 weeks so far and play music about 12 hours a day through the amps to help break them in.

Breaking in – Questions and comments
•   Units have been plugged directly into the wall outlet (using Hospital grade wall plugs). Correct Y/N ?
•   Units have been left on for about three weeks, so far. Remember these were purchased used from an owner that I assume has played the units for some time.
•   Music plays through them most of the day but off at night. Amplifiers, however, remain powered up.
•   I can’t play them loudly for hours at a time. Can the amps be fed a signal without the speakers being hooked up? If so, I could run them at a higher power level for hours at a time.


Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I just want to know if I will ever get the micro details, large hall ambiance and sense of live performers in the room that I was getting with my previous, much less expensive amplifier and, if so, what steps can I take to speed up the break-in process to achieve those results.

Sounds like your speakers are wired out of phase.

Hank

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1206
    • http://www.geocities.com/hankbond1/index
Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #17 on: 6 Nov 2013, 02:52 pm »
Quote
Sounds like your speakers are wired out of phase.
+1

ronwills

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 8
Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #18 on: 6 Nov 2013, 04:52 pm »
The speaker phase was checked with the Stereophile Test CD and was fine. The collapsed soundstage and somewhat phasey sound was cured when I substituted one of the power cables with the new Wireworld cable matching the second mono amp. I did not anticipate this result in any way but it is something that can be duplicated easily by unhooking one of the two Wireworld power cables and inserting the Xindak power cable.
 
The final tweaking of the amps will happen shortly with an adjustment of the biasing.

hukkfinn

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 15
Re: What am I doing wrong? Odyssey Khartago Monos just not
« Reply #19 on: 12 Nov 2013, 03:52 pm »
The speaker phase was checked with the Stereophile Test CD and was fine.
Hopefully you have checked the speaker cable leads from amp to speaker, to be sure.