If I ever need a sub

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 10549 times.

zybar

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 12071
  • Dutch and Dutch 8C's…yes they are that good!
Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #20 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:50 pm »
Quote
My guess is that you be better off spending the money elsewhere (like replacing the Moscode)

Curious about this as I thought the Moscode was the latest amp of choice?

There is always something better...

George

95bcwh

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #21 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:51 pm »
One other thing if I may add to clarify: I don't mean to start this thread to imply that I do not get enough bass from my Salk HT3, in fact, let me re-iterate that I have no idea what will adding a sub do to improve the sound of my system. So it's by no means in disrespect to Jim's work. :wink: I'm a happy HT3 owner and I have ordered a second pair!

One of these days I will have to borrow fsimm's Tact 2.2X and his SVS sub (with TC Sound woofer) and see if it improves anything. If it does, I will upgrade my Tact 2.0S to a Tact Mini, because I can get a sweet deal :green: :green:





doug s.

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 6572
  • makin' music
Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #22 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:52 pm »
josh,

you may be right - the ht3 may be quite different from normal 3-way speakers.  the fact that its 10" driver is in fact a sub driver, & that it's crossed over at a low 250hz, may mean it doesn't warrant the use of a sub.  i'd certainly agree this is the case in most rooms.  but, my last "real" room was ~26x38x8.5; my present room is ~18x38x8.  in larger rooms, there's something to be said about the ability to move more air w/less distortion.  of course, i agree you need quality drivers...

best,

doug s.


With all due respect Doug, making conjecture about how the HT3's would benefit or not with the addition of stereo subs based on your passed experience with entirely different speakers is of little use.  I am pretty well certain the speaker you speak of (ones with 10"s) didn't have any where near the quality of woofer driver that the TC sound driver is.   The motor structure of a woofer is absolutely crucial to understanding how it will fair when asked to play bass and midbass simultaneously and if ever there were woofers that could go so with aplomb the TC sounds' woofers is among them.

Typically the reason why woofers playing low mucks up the midrange from the same speakers is usually do to distortion and subsequently inductive modulation.  The TC sound drivers have shorting rings like well made pro sound woofers and the better hi-fi woofers from Scan speak and a few others.  This makes them much less susceptible to such problems then standard woofer drivers.  It would be unwise IMO to try to make a guess at how the HT3 would improve with relief of bass material without experiencing it first hand. 

JoshK

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #23 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:55 pm »
...there's something to be said about the ability to move more air w/less distortion. 

I certainly agree with that!

MaxCast

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #24 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:04 pm »
Jim, or anyone who has done it,

If one were to add a pair of subs to the HT3's where would a good xo point be to start with?
Would you roll off the TC woofer or just xo the subs?

Marbles, how are you going to integrate your VCS's (VERY cool subs)?

martyo

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #25 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:09 pm »
I hope I didn't "rabbit trail" the thread. The posts by HT3 owners again calmed my fears.

Jim, please finish your replacements, I can think tooooo much, I need to be listening.  :lol: :lol: :lol:

JoshK

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #26 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:11 pm »
I'm not Jim, but I'd start at 40hz xo and then experiment.  At 40hz, any 2nd distortion produced by the sub (at very high volume) will be at 80hz which is still non-localizeable, whereas H2 of a higher crossover point might be local'ble.  Here the sub is also only there for first octave material which isn't much in music, so most of the time you wouldn't even know it is there or on if you have set it up correctly.

I think a lot of the reasons why subs are localized or heard is due to their distortion, not their fundamental tones.  Or sometime their box talk (which can be both significant and significantly higher up in freq than the sub's operating range). 

doug s.

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 6572
  • makin' music
Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #27 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:16 pm »
one other point - for me anyways - is that, unless i could have a single sub centered & in the nearfield, i would rather do w/o.  depending on speakers/subs, i might still rather do w/o a single sub - stereo subs is the way to go - better soundstaging, less distortion, easier to integrate into a room...

ymmv,

doug s.

doug s.

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 6572
  • makin' music
Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #28 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:22 pm »
which is why i clarified - if you cannot do stereo subs - especially w/speakers that are awreddy full-range - don't bother...

doug s.
one other point - for me anyways - is that, unless i could have a single sub centered & in the nearfield, i would rather do w/o.  depending on speakers/subs, i might still rather do w/o a single sub - stereo subs is the way to go - better soundstaging, less distortion, easier to integrate into a room...

And, as pointed out, with HT3s you essentially do have stereo subs...just not ones that play all the way to 17Hz.

doug s.

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 6572
  • makin' music
Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #29 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:24 pm »
another reason why you need stereo subs, imo.  even as low as 40hz, i can tell where a single sub is, unless it's directly centered between the main speakers...  i used to use 24db/octave slope, now i am using 48db/octave, fwiw... 

doug s.
I'm not Jim, but I'd start at 40hz xo and then experiment.  At 40hz, any 2nd distortion produced by the sub (at very high volume) will be at 80hz which is still non-localizeable, whereas H2 of a higher crossover point might be local'ble.  Here the sub is also only there for first octave material which isn't much in music, so most of the time you wouldn't even know it is there or on if you have set it up correctly.

I seem to hear of few people who cross to their sub(s) that low, for whatever reason.

Quote
I think a lot of the reasons why subs are localized or heard is due to their distortion, not their fundamental tones.  Or sometime their box talk (which can be both significant and significantly higher up in freq than the sub's operating range). 

That's a great point, if you're still crossing really low.  But since 50 Hz fundamental's H2 is 100 you can localize that, and many people cross to their subs much higher than that.

95bcwh

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #30 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:26 pm »
No disagreement here at all. Luckily a Tact Mini can help to add + integrate two additional subs no problem, 3 subs is out of reach...ouch! :lol: :lol:


another reason why you need stereo subs, imo.  even as low as 40hz, i can tell where a single sub is, unless it's directly centered between the main speakers...  i used to use 24db/octave slope, now i am using 48db/octave, fwiw... 

doug s.

jsalk

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #31 on: 14 Dec 2007, 06:09 pm »
Another point I forgot to pass along...

someone mentioned "in-room response".  This would be about 24Hz with the HT3's.

- Jim

DMurphy

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 1546
    • SalkSound
Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #32 on: 14 Dec 2007, 07:28 pm »
Wow.  A new 4-page thread and I can't think of anything to say.     Hmmm--oh yes--HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

fRsimms

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 10
Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #33 on: 14 Dec 2007, 08:30 pm »
Quote
I think a lot of the reasons why subs are localized or heard is due to their distortion, not their fundamental tones.

That must explain why people can't tell that I have a sub sitting beside their chair.  I cross over at 80 Hz but the sub has a TC Sounds woofer.  It must not have much second and third order distortion!

jsalk

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #34 on: 14 Dec 2007, 08:45 pm »
Quote
I think a lot of the reasons why subs are localized or heard is due to their distortion, not their fundamental tones.

That must explain why people can't tell that I have a sub sitting beside their chair.  I cross over at 80 Hz but the sub has a TC Sounds woofer.  It must not have much second and third order distortion!

That is true.  TC Sounds distortion levels are very low.  Most people cannot localize fundamental frequencies under about 150Hz and almost no one can under 100Hz.  People often ask if the woofer on the HT3's can be side-mounted.  The answer is no because people can localize signals at the top end of the woofer response - about 250Hz.

- Jim

mfsoa

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #35 on: 14 Dec 2007, 09:27 pm »
I was in my brother's store listening to his B&W 802Ds in the "best" room there. There was an 18" Velodyne sub directly to the left of the seating position. On one track that starts with acoustic bass panned hard right, we could not tell that the sub was to the left of us, and this was deliberately trying to listen for it, knowing it was right (left) there. We could feel it vibrating when we touched it, so I knew it was playing.

Sorry but I don't know if the 802s were high-passed or not or the low-pass on the sub.

Anyway, my $0.01.

-Mike

zybar

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 12071
  • Dutch and Dutch 8C's…yes they are that good!
Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #36 on: 15 Dec 2007, 04:03 am »
i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here.  ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers.  if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level.  the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture.  plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs.   8)

i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo.  but, i strongly recommend a pair.  if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother. 

doug s.

I tried VMPS Larger subs and HT3's and it didn't work.

The VMPS bass didn't match well at all with the HT3's.

George

zybar

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 12071
  • Dutch and Dutch 8C's…yes they are that good!
Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #37 on: 15 Dec 2007, 04:09 am »
Another point I forgot to pass along...

someone mentioned "in-room response".  This would be about 24Hz with the HT3's.

- Jim

That sounds about right!   :thumb:

Pretty much what I measured with my HT3's with my TacT gear in a previous life.

One last time, repeat after me:

"I don't need no stinkin' subs" with HT3's

George

lonewolfny42

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 16918
  • Speakers....What Speakers ?
Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #38 on: 15 Dec 2007, 07:20 am »
i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here.  ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers.  if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level.  the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture.  plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs.   8)

i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo.  but, i strongly recommend a pair.  if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother. 

doug s.

I tried VMPS Larger subs and HT3's and it didn't work.

The VMPS bass didn't match well at all with the HT3's.

George
Having been to George's place when he first got his HT3's awhile back....I did not find them lacking anything in bass...they sounded very good. That was the time we compared his 40's plus the subs to the HT3's.... Jim makes a very good speaker. :thumb:

                            Chris

doug s.

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 6572
  • makin' music
Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #39 on: 18 Dec 2007, 02:35 pm »
hi george,

curious as to how you tried the vmps' w/the ht3's.  did you run an outboard x-over, crossing the ht3's as well as the subs?  or run the ht3's full-range?  it wouldn't surprise me that the vmps (or any) subs might not work well w/the ht3's (or other full-range speakers), unless the ht3's are also actively crossed over to the subs...  while the ht3's may not need subs, it would surprise me that vmps subs couldn't integrate well w/them, if active x-over is used...

thanks,

doug s.

i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here.  ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers.  if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level.  the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture.  plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs.   8)

i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo.  but, i strongly recommend a pair.  if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother. 

doug s.

I tried VMPS Larger subs and HT3's and it didn't work.

The VMPS bass didn't match well at all with the HT3's.

George